You’re a Pioneer of Wo-Chien in VGC. Unfortunately you just so happened to be pioneering towards something mediocre like Idaho or Thursday. (You actually kicked so much ass with wo-chien fr the slug is #1 in my heart)
Being 4x weak to a pivot move is the biggest afront ever, imagine your biggest weakness being by essentially someone giving you a right hook then immediately running away.
The other big issue is that U-Turn, one of the best moves in the game, is 4x effective against it, and makes it very hard to really stay in long term while the opponent gets all the momentum they want.
It is my personal opinion that uturn and all these other pivot moves should be heavily nerfed, restricted to only a few Pokémon or outright removed from the game. They’re way too good for no trade off.
The trade off should be very low base power, like no higher than 30bp. The other trade off (useful more in singles than doubles) should be low pp (5pp, 8 with pp up/max).
Live Wo-Chien reaction. This guy has my favourite design of this gen behind Clod and Tinkaton, but when I saw it's typing an stat pairing, I just knew... I just knew.
@@Elli-kc2yh When I say "honest" I mean Wo Chien is the only member of the Ruin quartet that hasn't been blatantly overpowered to some degree. Although Ting Lu isn't overpowered in my opinion, it can be really annoying to deal with even without a stat boosting or recovery move. Chi Yu and Chien Pao speak for themselves LOL.
A not-so-insignificant factor in Wo-Chien’s performance is its stat spread. At a glance, they look good - for Gen 4. Tangrowth still has arguably better stats. Meanwhile, all the other Ruin mons have top tier Gen 6 (Mega era) or Gen 9 (you know, the gen that is happening _right now)_ level stat spreads. They should have taken from its Attack and Speed (it’s a slug. Why do they have to make it as fast as Breloom?) and put all those points into HP and its defenses so it could at least be a wall rather than a middling speed, kinda bulky mixed attacker.
I think if it was poison dark it would actually be really cool as a defensive pokemon, knock off, ruination and perhaps toxic instead of leech seed would make it pretty decent even without reliable recovery, it would also kinda fit thematically keeping the dark type all the ruins pokemon share and snails can be poisonous so there’s that
Also, the tablets on its back are supposedly covered in lies due to being based off of a old chinese saying; "Even if you cut down all the bamboo, there wouldn't be enough to make tablets to record all your sins" or something along those lines. Talk about TOXICITY. What if they translated that metaphorical toxicity into literal toxicity?
Walking up to the Wo-Chien movepool and seeing all the phys moves and it's glaring weakness to the meta was quite the moment of comp team building and I forgot he existed for a while! Bring bro back ✊😔
Live WoChien reaction. Poor thing is behind its siblings, but I liked its design enough to seek it out before I finished my normal playthrough and have it as my final team member
on Wo-Chien ex in the TCG, the main reason it sees no play despite the looming threat of Charizard ex (Tera Dark, weak to Grass) is that its attack's energy costs are way too high and there's not enough good Grass acceleration in the current format for the big guy. You could try using Forretress ex's ability to accelerate up to 5 Grass from your deck, but it knocks out Forretress and gives your opponent 2 of 6 prize cards. Gardenia's Vigor is unreliable as you need to have the energy in your hand, and Cherrim (Battle Styles) can't accelerate to Rule Box Pokémon (ex, V, etc.) You'd be better off playing Meowscarada ex, who's attack can be fulfilled with a single Double Turbo Energy (Two colorless, 20 less damage) and you can reliably hit 200 damage with its ability, discarding a Grass energy and putting damage on 1 your opponent's Pokémon, using Radiant Alakazam to move that damage around.
@@boomsandapples2640 At the core, this is really easy to understand. You attach 1 energy per turn. There are at least 3 energy symbols next to Wochien's attack names, so it takes three turns to power up, which is slow. Op described specific ways to speed Wo-Chien up or get more mileage out of it, but those shouldn't make any sense unless you read the text on the cards they mention.
@@thomas0comerWell, Darkness in the TCG has 2 Weakness. If the Pokémon on the card is a Poison type in the games, it'll be a Darkness type that is weak to Fighting (Ground > Poison, Ground is represented with Fighting). If it is a Dark type in the games, it's weak to Grass (Bug > Dark, Bug types are represented with Grass in the TCG).
Ah yes...a slow (but not slow enough for trick room) defensive 'mon with horrible base defensive typing and average attack in a time when speedy offense is far more valued over defense in general...that also has 1 useful defensive move. GF definitely knew it was shit when they gave it the name "Wo-Chien" given that "Wo" and "Woe" are pronounced pretty much the same way.
It's funny how Ting Lu is better with Trick Room and has better offensive typings than Wo Chien. On the bright side, Wo Chien is much more threatening on Grassy Terrain.
@@fishyfishyfishy500akabs8 You don't need a team full of Grass types to make a Grassy Terrain team. Most of the "Grassy Terrain Teams" I see are just hyper /bulky offense teams with Rillaboom on it.
@@Renegade77784 wo-chien in that case is essentially anathema to the team style you’re running. Wo-chien’s stats, moves, and ability are defensive in nature, and oftentimes it is used as a wall or less commonly as a support mon (with middling support options). The fact it doesn’t have recovery also makes its job hard. The rillaboom you run with the team has your grass coverage and if you really want can even have dark moves like knock off sorted. On top of that your Wo-chien isn’t even very good on defense, since it horribly melts to any bug types, as well as being weak to any fighting type moves and flying type moves along with fire and ice (the quintessential water type coverage), very bad for a slow bulky mon. Your rillaboom is not surviving these moves particularly well too or just flat out dying to them, so you essentially doubled up on mons with similar weaknesses. Sure you have other Pokémon, but those other Pokémon like grassy seed sneasler actually synergize well with it by actually bringing something valuable to the team. All Wo-chien really benefits from is the healing which also goes to the enemy and makes common Wo-chien tactics like leech seed or ruination less effective and the grass type move boost which your Rilla already does, and does it better at that. By adding wo-chien to the team you essentially shoot yourself in the foot. For a team that relies on offense, adding a slow, passive, defensive wall that burns your valuable grassy terrain turns just doesn’t work well in my opinion.
Also not mentioned: while the other treasures of ruin have powerful and unique roles thanks to their abilities that can't be replicated in any other way, Wo-chien's ability is basically just a discount intimidate (literally the most common ability in all of pokemon)
An Intimidate which keeps having an effect even if the opponent switches to another Pokémon? Sounds more like an upgrade than discount (but still doesn't make up for Wo-Chien's shortcomings).
@@Alg3br4 true, but it also goes away once Wo-chien switches out. Not to mention it being a smaller effect (25% instead of 33.3% attack drop) and affecting your own partner pokemon as well as the opponent.
Wo-Chien could have been so much more of a Monster that it is very weird how the Pokemon Company held back on that, but gave everything to the 3 other Treasures of Ruin.
For flavor, I'd give it Moonlight, not synthesis. Also, in terms of it's ability to face off against set-up mons, would a unique variant of Protect that removes stat increases be good? Specifically it has to block an attack, not a status move. But it doesn't need to be contact, since it's a curse it's about payback for the deed, not touching the shield. I feel that it fits its nature as a "treasure of ruin" probably called something like "cursed talismans" or something. Specifically I imagine it only removes *increases* to stats, so it's better in doubles with partners that reduce stats on the opponent. Of course, you'd have to predict the attack, but that's part of the strategy.
Wo-Chien was the first Treasure of Ruin I caught. I’m considering making a team around all of the Treasures of Ruin, + Hydreigon because I think a dragon that destroys everything it sees according to the Pokédex sounds like a good addition to the theme. Plus it’s a Dark type too. Now for the sixth mon, not too sure… but there’s time to figure that out
Koraidon or zacian to represent the king who was greedy for the treasures and led the kingdom to ruin. Koraidon is the "winged king," while zacian was the pokemon of the fairy king and them, as well as zamazenta and the fighting master, are the kings of galar. I chose Zacian as their trainer is referred as a king. You can give them a dark tera type to fit the team as well.
Can you make a video about how Brute Bonnet is in a much lower tier than Amoonguss even though normally paradox Pokemon are in higher tiers than their normal versions? Like how Flutter Mane is Ubers and Misdreavus is ZU.
Ting-Lu is also a very strong Ubers contender, meaning Chi-Yu is Ubers but not strong in Ubers, Ting-Lu is not Ubers but strong in Ubers, Chien-Pao is Ubers and strong in Ubers, and Wo-Chien is not Ubers and not strong in Ubers… or OU, or UU, or RU… and it’s the only one not to have any VGC presence… poor guy
I just recently got #1 on the SV OU ladder with a wo-chien stall team. I made an RMT with it. Basically, its one of the only reliable defensive answers to ogerpon-wellspring, and has some nice utility moves. It isnt even a big tera-user.
Im really glad you carried on with these presentations, keeping a balance between other content and presentations is good though, keep up the good work!
I tried running a team set with Wo-Chien & (F)Indeedee to have a higher chance of higher defense with Reflect & Light Screen with Indeedee's ability Psychic surge. It works rather well in game but in a competitive set I sometimes win or don't with that strategy in mind. Also could you do 1 for the starters as well, particularly Quaquaval for out off all the other starters that are just as good in the meta it's the only one that is seemingly fallen off!
My showdown Free for all team has wo-chien as a backup wall (i like tanky mons). its hp and SpD invested with +def nature. leftovers and the moves are protect, leech seed, ruination and rest. and i am surprised to see this mon doesnt get much play. i havent played a single game where wo-chien hasnt stalled for long enough that all the other mons werent low enough for my damage to sweep. I love this mon, and with tera its nearly unkillable. I dont really care if other people say its UU or worse, i dont select mons based on meta anyways, i like it so i use it. 😌😌
I will never understand the INSISTENCE of making wall pokemon and then giving them NONE OF THE TOOLS REQUIRED TO ACTUALLY WALL somebody out there, somebody is making the concious choice to look at a pokemon like Wo-Chien, go into it's code, and prevent it from learning instant recovery moves. They ANGER ME
It's ability is also kinda weird, because it drops Attack for all Pokemon on the field, but Intimidate already exists? Yeah, you can switch out of Intimidate, but that's forfeiting a lot of momentum, especially in Singles, where pointlessly switching your Pokemon in and out is absolutely damning. Also, Intimidate has another benefit over ToR, bc Intimidate's stat drop lasts after the "intimidater" is KOed, whereas ToR does not, so you can't even do something like switch Wo-Chien into an attacking move to sack it in exchange for a potentially clutch Attack drop. Ting-Lu's ability is unique in that it targets Sp. Def, which no other ability lowers for free like that, giving it an incredible niche. Wo-Chien is not only competing with every single Intimidate user, but it's ability and typing are also objectively worse, especially in a world where Landorus and Incineroar exist with their own pivot moves and infinitely better typing.
I figure it had synthesis at one point, then it was removed when they remembered that the Pokémon part of it is just an evil cutting board With that being said, Chien Pao gets recover, so???
I use Wo-Chien is OU just for fun. He has his uses in stall. Not saying that he is good tbh. I use leech seed as recovery but he needs some instant recovery.
As a casual player, I didn’t give a crap about if a Pokémon could use hazards, set up, or support a teammate. I would just pick like 4 strong, cool moves that gave some coverage and called it a day. I couldn’t care less whether Krookadile gets Knock Off or not. I guess nowadays a Pokémon has gotta “do something”, not just dish out some decent hits.
It really bums me out that it is bad too. Cause I think it is objectively the coolest looking one of the four. When I heard if the Treasures of Ruin, I was like "Oh yeah, time for some messed up, embodiments of avarice and greed." And Wo-Chien was the first one I saw. It delivered. A big slug cobbled together out of a leaf pile with the tablets coiling around it? It gives me "This thing is not okay, this is an ancient, eldritch entity you have unleashed onto the world" vibes. And then the other three are just an entirely not messed up sabertooth, moose and goldfish. Boring. But they're the only ones worth using!
Its ability would be so helpful in the current meta dominated by Physical Attackers, it’s a real shame that it has its terrible typing, which means you would probably have to rely on Terastallizing it each game you bring it to for it to be helpful
Gamefreak have the immaculate ability to make some of the most broken offensive pokemon we've ever seen but when it comes to good defensive pokemon? Uh... yeah...
I could not disagree more with this PowerPoint. Every time I've battled Wo-Chien, it has always been an absolute pain to remove because of its impressive bulk. Even with its 4x weakness to bug, Wo-Chien has all the tools it needs to make itself the first Pokémon to enter the battlefield and the last to leave, never once being recalled the entire time. It can use Leech Seed on both opponents and Protect, Leftovers, and Giga Drain to restore a massive portion of its health in only a single turn. It really doesn't need its speed stat to be good. Yet it also can dish out some solid attacks with its decently high Attack and Special Attack. It can also use Snarl to make itself even harder to take down, which means when combined with its Tablets of Ruin ability, Wo-Chien is perhaps the best-designed of all the treasures of ruin competitive-wise.
Wo-Chien should be Poison/Dark 1) It'd be MUCH better defensively, poison/dark is kinda heat 2) Gen 9 wouldn't have THREE fucking Grass/Dark type pokemon at once 3) It'd be make a lot of sense for its lore of draining nature of its life and nothing ever growing again where it stood Just make the leaves on it look a little more sludgy and decaying and bam, the design is ready
