A36 19MT Engine Out Night IMC 

I have to be careful with my comment because I am currently a controller, so I need to say up front that my opinion is my own, and does NOT represent an official FAA position. Having said that, I've worked on this exact problem for years from an ATC perspective and I will say that it creates an almost impossible situation for a controller. Once the clouds get this low, a controller presented with a partial engine failure faces a true dilemma -- if we try to help the pilot fly a very abbreviated approach because the engine might fail entirely at any point, that abbreviated approach is extremely rushed and if it doesn't end perfectly but the engine keeps running, people will want to sue for rushing the approach. But if we try to take them out for the full approach from the Final Approach Fix at the normal glideslope and the engine fails entirely, then the airplane will land well short. I therefore agree wholeheartedly with your advice that pilots should exercise PIC authority in these cases and head for the "airport" or "airport perimeter" at altitude, then spiral down using whatever moving map technology they have at their disposal.

You’re clear, concise and insightful. I’m a 787 United pilot who keeps his instructor rating current. I also have a 25 year old son who is learning to fly at his local FBO. Your channel, Dan’s channel as well as Juan’s channel are essential for new and seasoned pilots. Keep up the great work.

I’m retired United and FAA. I have 2 night IMC deadstick engine landings. I’m lucky to be alive, needless to say. Engines can and do quit all the time ( I’m also an A&P). No more night single engine for me for the subsequent 24000 hours. Great review And video

The truly lethal element was the decision to take off in that airplane in those conditions. Turned a survivable engine-out into a tragedy.

Good vlog Scott...like Dan Gryder says...pick ONE!!! Night/IMC/ICE/Terrain.....like you say...you don't fly at night anymore....there's a reason!

You did a brilliant summary on this one, Scott. The controller really is blameless. When he said "Give Me Wings Level" you could hear the stress in his voice, he knew what was happening out there he was watching it. You know yourself climb and confess and also fly the plane navigate and communicate. Bevo never failed to reinforce the fact that altitude is like a bank account and you need to get upstairs as fast as possible. I really like what you said about trying to do math when you're under heavy stress load, man are you right!!!! That ain't going to happen. Scott the first words I ever read in my aviation curriculum was; FEAR LEADS TO PANIC We've all had some White knuckle moments, but I promise you this particular incident really touched me. Especially when I learned that his passenger had text a loving goodbye to his wife. He knew it wasn't going to work out. Breaks my heart. My sympathy to the family

Scott thank you for your videos. I am a retired Australian bush pilot who spent his career bouncing around the outback here in Queensland, Australia. I have had two problems it is apropos to discuss with your audience. 1) In a B58 Baron outbound the RH engine CHT was constantly climbing and the oil pressure dropping. So, I throttle back. Nope. CHT still increasing and in the red now. I call ATC and tell them I'm coming back to Archerfield in Brisbane with a feathered engine (PAN call). Here's the kicker: I have to descend to get under the CTR steps for Brisbane International. But I don't want to trade altitude for speed - so I demand inbound at 3500 feet rather than 1500 feet. I manage my pax and the ATC requirements and land single engine with no issues. Why tell you about this non-event? Because it could have become a bigger issue if I had not simply flown the problem. My passengers all flew with me again it turned out. 2) In a B76 Duchess I flew through a bush fire plume about 100 nm from home and realised that the gum tree smoke wasn't the fire I was smelling. The cockpit filled up with acrid white oil smoke. The RH engine had fractured an oil feed line and the oil leak had caught fire. After a session of "hands like epileptic spiders" I got the engine shut down, secured and the cabin free from toxic fumes. The passengers had white faces when the propeller stopped. I landed at the nearest possible airport (Toowoomba if I remember) and one of the passengers complained we weren't in Brisbane. I looked at her and said, "buy a lottery ticket". I had a great CFI in those days who was promoting something similar to what now if called AQP. He called it "train like you're going to die". It saved me many times from being a stupid idiot and kicked in when I did have recourse to need it. All the best everyone. Stu

Scott , I lost my engine coming out of a grass strip east of OKC with a student on my Champ on July 23,2021. I completely agree with everything you have said here. Reality is a harsh taskmaster. I was 200 ft agl and 50’ over the trees with no where to go. Fortunately, I made a successful 3 point touchdown but the ground was marshy and I went into 4’ tall grass and the mains dug into the ground and the airplane flipped over. I suffered a slight head injury and bruises but my student walked away without a problem. Scratch 1 7AC. Within 1 sec I discovered how people die. 3 things saved us. 1. I do this a lot. 2. I didn’t panic and 3. I flew all the way to the accident. The way we teach engine failures is simply inadequate for how it happens in real life.

I listened to the ATC comms on another YT channel (it was much clearer for some reason). What a great job the controller did from the first hint of a problem. I'd take him as a controller any day, especially if I had a problem. I hope he's doing OK dealing with this also.

My strategy would be not to take off in this type of weather.

Flying at night is something i always avoid and especially NEVER in IMC. Having an engine out during daylight VFR is hard enough to manage let alone flying in the dark.

Single-engine… at night… IMC… terrain. Four strikes. As Dan Gryder says… “Pick one.”

I don't really understand why people try to do approaches in hard IMC in response to engine problems. Isn't it a hard requirement to have full or almost full engine power to fly the 3 degree glideslope that the approach will have you fly? If you're engine out, isn't your only option to spiral down into the pattern until you break out? I'm not instrument rated, so I'm very confused by this.

Scott another great common sense video. Excellent! Thanks for what you do Scott❤😊

My CFI always said Pitch for best glide and Point to the numbers (or the last beach/field/golf course you saw/see). Only then should you start your engine out memory items. Finally you declare. The number of times he turned away from the ONLY place he could get down just pained me (VAS radar track).

Good job. The big takeaway here is ADM. you’re in a poorly maintained rented bonanza, night, known IMC, no VFR weather anywhere, no space between the earth and lowest layer. Shoulda gone to the hotel. $139 Hampton inn has been my choice a lot. After you’re in the air you got no choice except head direct to any airport and hope for the best. You can “not” get vectors for an approach with a known sick engine. ASEL RULE: Night IMC Terrain Ice You gotta be pretty sophisticated to pick more than one of these.

Absolutely. Get yourself to the airport using as much engine power you can get at the highest altitude. With the Bonanza you can get real high quality instruction through the ABS organization and I did simulated engine failures from the pattern. Funny thing, I had what turned out to be a non-problem a couple months after this training and got myself right into position at an airport "just in case" until I got it sorted out. I did this almost entirely using the Garmin and Foreflight as it was night. If I needed to I could have circled down. What happened in this case is a shame.

Not sure I can agree with your logic train totally….but like you said they had no plan….heck Scott who would in this case. They were dead before they took off. You do not take flight in low IMC at night with one engine period. This pilot was not a test pilot and did not have the skill set of one, no matter how much glass, autopilot or even a chute. During the day maybe, but good training a key and lots of it. This was tragic in so many ways and just hope they did not suffer. May this drive home the reality of single engine flying in weather that is much worse then your capabilities and training. Gets me very very mad…who was their flight instructor and why did they not drive home the dangers. Ahhhhhh,,, Thanks for your great work.

Single engine, IMC, bad weather in low visibility, take a car, or stay home, that's my tip on this one, prayers out to the family and friends, in this tragic event.

Thanks for covering this one Scott!

This pilot handed over authority to the controller in the name of "this is how I've made approaches before so let's do it that way again." I would not have accepted vectors for anything but direct to the airport (unless I had gobs of altitude, and could intercept the glideslope from above). That said, I had a partial engine failure in hard VFR 5500 feet above the Danbury airport enroute to western Massachusetts. I lost 1000 feet or so, was all set up and prepared to circle over the approach end, straighten out and land, and then the engine shook itself awake. This is where I made a real mistake: with the engine putting out power and the airplane back in a climb, I decided to continue on to Barnes Westfield in Massachusetts. It seemed like a fine idea until the engine RPMs fell once again, the engine began to shake, and I was back in an unplanned descent too far from Danbury to land. In the glide, the engine came back to life once more. I climbed, fixated on getting back to my home field and mechanic. It happened a third time, but now, at least I could see KBAF. I slowed to best glide, the engine (again) woke back up and I made it to the runway with, as things turned out, one live cylinder out of six (the others were suffering from overheat, coked oil and shorted out plugs from said oil being splashed on them). The lesson for me (now) is this: don't waste a good runway that's in your hands for anything. Problems are always better solved on the ground, even if that ground is not your home field.

Geting back in to flying after being out for25 years. Your video's are incredibly valuable with making life saving decisions.thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience.keep up the good work

Maybe don’t take off at night into low ifr and icing conditions.

Scott, I watched this on another channel and absolutely agree, DO NOT GIVE up altitude until you have the Runway or airport made. He descended from 5k to 3k with partial power as he was working around to get set up on the ILS. I agree, open airport is a known, in that there are no trees and open space to spread the stopping out over some ground. I think ATC could use some guidance in these also, rather than treating a single engine problem as normal descent pattern, maybe ATC could suggest hold altitude until airport made. This pilot was overloaded and was doing what ATC advised. Just think all can learn from this incident. A plane will ALWAYS COME DOWN, without an engine it will not go up!

Priceless!!!! Thank you, one of your BEST. EVER. If Blanco wouldn't start shooting in a fit of jealousy, you'd get a big smoochies and a shmax, on the rump.

This accident started on the preflight. It should have never been initiated. Too bad. Dan, shooting an approach to the mínimums with the gradient of an engine failure in IMC and icing, is just chilling. The degradation of performance due to icing, is still on the wings, even maybe the rest to the airframe. It sounds like freezing rain. It sticks like glue. Too bad. RIP.

Why do people fly their single engine aircraft at night in IMC? Take an airline flight, drive a car if you have to get somewhere.

Don't forget the lake! On water landing have a much higher survival rate than trying to get back to a airport. There was a lake right next to that airport. There are a lot of lakes in mountainous terrain.

100%...I have thought about this before...First of all, I like to have circling minimums at all times underneath me in a single (not just at the destination)...Secondly, If I do have an issue, I am flying direct to the largest possible airport in my glide ring and will circle just like a vfr engine out, using synthetic vision and my ipad to set myself up for a normal power of 180....gear up...try to make the runway, atleast the runway environment and always always always maintain airspeed all the way to the ground...If i can't make it overhead, no way am I going to the FAF...im loading the approach, aiming about a 1/4 mile to the end of the runway and doing it blind and hoping I don't find that one errant tower...

or...When you wished you had pursued that Airship License instead.

Scooter, feel free to discuss this pilot’s decision to start the engine in those conditions. I choose to not fly our A36 at night. One night, I made a pact with God that, if he would let me live through that night IMC in our C421, I would never again fly IMC at night time. I lived and I will never do it again. Lastly, I would never start a single engine piston aircraft when visible moisture exists below 45 degrees F. Three strikes made these circumstances 95% unsurvivable with an engine failure. 2 lives lost. Sad but preventable!

If a Bonanza can’t climb from 6k to 8k that is an emergency situation. Don’t talk yourself out of reality, accept it and deal with the problem immediately.

With decades of failure analysis engineering experience, suggest never underestimating the seriousness of an anomaly which can quickly become a crisis if not managed properly. Therefore the 6 Ps of success: Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance.

Night, icing, snow, bad viz. what was this man thinking? In those conditions, you are betting your ass on a good engine. As my primary helicopter instructor used to say.

Scott,you really nailed the technicalities,but the origin of the flight is sheer recklessness.Actual Ifr in small planes with no known icing conditions is bad stuff.Night Vfr or Ifr in single engined airplanes need some Christian faith...Departing at night in a Bonanza into icing conditions is pure madness.Pilots think that flying Ifr is some kind of shield against elements and engine out possibilities.It's bad enough in twin engine piston aircraft in those conditions.May the pilot and the occupants rest in peace.Thanks for your channel.Great insights,even for airline pilots.

I cannot understand why the pilot did declare an emergency immediately and shoot the ILS or LPV to runway 34. The pilot and controller were mentally locked into the ILS 16 being used and allowed precious time and altitude to be wasted being vectored to 16 when 34 was right off the right wing. ForeFlight, if set up to do so, shows the lost power glide distance of the aircraft in a displayed circle and that could have been used to circle, if need be, to gauge when to turn inbound on the ILS or LPV approach. I would not have relied upon the engine continuing to operate, however, the time and altitude wasted being vectored to the ILS 16 could have allowed an otherwise normal approach to16 without, of course, the option of a go around. I would have much preferred to use this option rather than blindly circling the airport in a descent as suggested in this video ... turns are disorienting and increase stall speeds.

Scott you and Dan nailed it . I’m going to practice this with my instrument students and my instructor in my Bonanza.

I can’t help but wonder with today’s technology that ATC could consider a glide ratio for vectoring. There is no sense in giving a dead stick for a barely flying airplane an ILS approach that was impossible. Some kind of vector to get at least on the localizer. As you pointed out the pilot can’t figure that out in an emergency. It would be nice for ATC to have some kind of tool for that. I fly with xAvion which constantly calculates a way to the nearest airport gliding and you just fly through the squares. Why can’t there be a ground based version of that with the controller continuously giving vectors to follow?

Night, IFR, weather, single engine. Nope, not for me.

I agree 100%. I am a bonanza owner/pilot. Zoom into foreflight, head straight to the field. Don't give up any altitude until over HPN. HPN is giant field. Lots of open space. Tell controller to get everyone out of the way both in the air and on the field. Circle down using foreflight. Level off at 100 feet and take what's in front of you wings level, lowest speed. Add drag as necessary. To the loss of engine power. I wonder if he picked up ice in the air intake and filter and the alternate air gates didn't open.

6500’ of runway should be enough to get it down without an ILS.

If you hit CC closed caption, it spells out a few words in communication w pilot and controller

Fantastic breakdown of this accident. You’re right… i would not be able to do ANY math in that situation. Cut through the normal and get on the ground and walk away. Keep it simple. I’m heavy hearted for this pilot and his family.

Good video. A lot of positive comments below. However, I will take the contrarian view. Where is the ADM? Night IMC in bad weather, why? I wouldn't even attempt that in my FIKI certified aircraft with a parachute.

Never fly single engine IFR at night.

Thanks Scott. Great video. 🇺🇸🇺🇸

100% agree and this is how the Garmin system works in the case of an engine failure. It steers you direct to a point over the airport, if altitude permits, and then returns control to the pilot to land. That is a simple and straightforward approach and what I have always planned to do in case of an engine failure, whether in VMC or IMC.

My buddies & I always tell each other..."don't hurt the airplane today". If you don't hurt the airplane, you automatically don't hurt yourself or passengers. That is our mantra and focus.

Thank you for your thoughts. I totally agree that keeping it simple is the best approach. My worst nightmare would be in IMC at night, with a failing engine. Yes, looking at the map on the iPad and heading straight to the airport is great advise. Thank you again.

Having had a fuel delivery problem once and not being over an airport, maintaining altitude became my main plan if I have a problem.

Scott, My plane is in the shop getting a full glass panel. I was just thinking about this scenario last night (since "thinking about flying" is all I can do for now). I.e. losing an engine and ending up too high over an airport! I was thinking about this as a possibility since fuel lines were repiped and there could be a higher risk something gets into the carb jet. I wonder how "SmartGlide" would handle it? I'm 66 and just got my private a year and a half ago. Didn't discuss this scenario in training. Just practiced engine outs at pattern altitude. Should practice them at several altitudes above that. Guess what I will be doing when I get back in the air! Thanks for the insights!

The first description I have seen of a practical strategy for this humdinger of a pickle. I fly IFR in IMC in my Piper Arrow a lot. Sometimes with loved ones on board. I don't fly at night unless I have a compelling reason because it reduces options, but I still do it because I am current and proficient. One reason I avoid night flying, especially in IMC, is because I couldn't think of a realistic strategy to deal with engine out. Now I have one, thank you. That doesn't mean I'm changing my reluctance to fly at night, or double reluctance to fly at night in IMC. But since I do it from time to time anyway, I have committed this strategy to memory. Fight the good fight ALL the way down. That's my pledge to my passengers and myself. Of course, as an owner/pilot I pay close attention to maintenance and I have never experienced this sort of failure. Thank goodness!

👍☑ cut through the BS, great advise Scott.

Like the Simple approach. Fly directly to airport. Then circle down to land. I had an engine out, called Mayday. The voice on the other end said that there was an abandoned airstrip somewhere ahead. I maid a beeline for a flat area (I was flying over mountains). Luckily it was clear weather. Circled to land on dirt strip with tumble weeds. Saved my flaps and gear down to the last minute on short final. Scary seeing Mt propeller dead and staring at me. Landed safely (with the wind). Made call that I was down safely. Stupid me ran out of gas. They brought some Jerry cans of gas. I put the gas in, took off, and followed them to Green River to pay my bill and thanked them profusely. I had failed to visually check my gas at Grand Canyon airport (last stop). Flying a T-34, solo VFR to Vernal, Utah from Yuma, AZ.

Great advice Scott! This is a must see video for pilots. I’m not blaming ATC but I do think some rethinking of ATC procedures in these type emergencies should be considered immediately. Thanks for this video.

Excellent analysis and advice

My instructor told me during my initial flight instruction: “Ya gotta know when to leave it in the hangar”.

Night IMC in a single? No thanks.

Was it Chuck Yager or Grissom who said "Any landing you can walk away from. And if you can use the airplane again on the next day, it was a really GREAT landing."

Great advice here. Thanks

I think I'd opt for direct to the airport first and vectors or fly the moving map to a somewhere on close to the end of the runway, as a dead-stick ILS is pretty demanding High risk prospect.

Scott - thank you for your videos and commitment to this channel! Part of my essential continuing pilot training.. You really got me thinking about this one, which should make me better prepared if it happened to me.

Outstanding breakdown and great advice. Many years ago I did aerial survey work in Cessna 210s, we could do all weather and about 70% of flights were at night. We flew with two pilots and we consistently were looking for landing areas in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. Even would tune airport frequencies and click on the runway lights. Heart goes out to those involved. Thought the controller did well with “just go wing’s level, don’t care what heading “.

Night, IMC, Single Engine… nope, I don’t need to get anywhere that bad.

Thanks for sharing your ideas on keeping it simple. Nice video, although sad but many will learn from it.

this is by far the best take on how to approach this type of situation

Great video. Thanks Scott. I’ll think it over!

Great video!

Excellent

Very bad situation! RIP!! That’s why I chosed to upgrade my GTN750 to the Xi with smart glide so in such a horrible situation I hope it helps. But first of all, I would probably try to stay out of these conditions. I try to avoid even VFR at night. Maybe coming home flying into the night, but I wouldn’t take off into the night. Even VFR. Let alone in IMC! If I had a turbine, or maybe a twin, that’s a different story.

Aside from the fact that this flight probably shouldn't have been attempted, it's infuriating how long this pilot waited to declare an emergency. If you're only getting 200ft/min in a Bonanza, that's a clear problem and an emergency. Even after he realizes he's losing a cylinder he diverts but still doesn't declare. Only declares when it's clear the engine is dying. ATC even tried to prod him and he declined.

Night, low IMC, ice, terrain (not as bad as Sierras but still) - I would take any one of them at a time. Two or more - no go (A36TN with anti ice).

Outstanding analysis, Scott, thank you! Unfortunately, the adage of "Use your expert Aeronautical Decision Making (ADE), so you don't have to use your expert Airmanship Skills (AMS)" maybe got lost somewhere here especially when you already at the point of zero failure tolerance. Appreciate you, Scott!

These tragic situations certainly are learning opportunities, Dad flew 40 years in the western arctic and he had at least one engine failure per year, mostly in single engine aircraft like Cessna 180/185 and Helio Courier, on floats, ski's,& wheels but also in twins too, he would say the key to surviving aviation is knowing your limits. This was a pilot making decisions that put him beyond his limits. Once panic sets in ones abilities decrease. Dad had a method for not letting fear overcome him in dire situation's, crazy as it sounds he said he bit his lip and the pain made him forget his fear. He died of natural causes

I'm a 160hr non-instrument-rated pilot. Among my personal minimums, I don't fly at night. I've done it twice; for my night CC in training and my ten landings. If I ever get my instrument rating (and I'm running out of runway to do that), I will still never fly single-engine at night.

Pilots love aircraft too much. It is but an expendable tool. It's the people who matter.

PFDs are a great resource in the cockpit even in VFR flying. I use Garmin Pilot and I have in installed on both my tablet and my cellphone so I will always have it handy. The GPS on them is also very accurate and basicaly can get you down to the threshold. Sometimes I will go up with a safety pilot and demonstrate a similar scenario under the hood where I will use basic VFR instruments and a PFD to fly down to the runway. Might be of great benefit to do the same senario with a simulated failed engine. Thank you for the video, that was an eye opener!

Back in the day I worked on a Piper Super Cub fish spotter with a belly tank. Fog would roll in from the ocean a few miles away. The pilot used his boat Loran get over the field & would spiral down & land on whatever runway came into sight. Which is similar to what your saying. Probably easier with the new GPS apps.

Sounds like he may of had ice building on the wings and in the air induction system. Since this plane does not have a carburetor, it is possible to get ice in front of the air filter and the induction passages to it. Any case, shouldn’t have even tried to fly that night. If this aircraft is equipped with cowl flaps, I’d choose to leave them closed during these conditions.

going into the window and AC business? :)

I’m not a pilot. Having a helmet fire is a good reason to keep me out of the air. I don’t know how you guys do it. Maybe only fly VFR? Cost/benefit analysis would never add up.

I wonder if the pilot immediately said mayday mayday mayday losing my engine, request immediate vectors to short final how this would have turned out.

Another great job breaking this down and explaining things. I hope everyone understands that you're doing these to try to get others to think and not for clicks or clout. As always thanks Scott for taking the time to put these together.

In fate is the hunter Gann talks about a cargo compartment fire in a DC4 which he did what You suggest

What's the old advice we got in the 70s in aviation class "Fly the plane".

so many factors against him, I am surprised there weren't rock stars as passengers.

Makes me think of Dan Grinder, AQP and something to train with an instructor

Did Scott use to fly the TomCat?

I'm not a pilot. I can't understand how someone ends up in a situation like this. I wouldn't fly a plane like that if there was even a small chance of weather.

Great note you put up on emergency circling approach. I think I'm going to put in my RV's POH

Panning wasn’t the order of the day here. The plan for that day in those conditions at night, should have been to try again after the weather improved.

Wish this guy could be my flight instructor

A lot of points to give some thought to. Thanks.

This is painful to watch progress into the crash. There is not much either of them could do to get out of the hole in the conditions he was, except not get into it...

Single engine at night, single engine IMC both no no’s imo. Sad

Direct to the airport and spiral down in the best strategy, I have done this and it worked!

Do pilots learn, over time and experience, to filter out all the static in radio transmissions?

Great discription of real options!!

Wise words. Maximise the chance of success.

Thank you for your assessment of this crash!