Comparing the accuracy of an old indicator with JO blocks. Please subscribe & ring the bell. Watch my 1300 other shop videos #Southbendlathe#foundryyoutubeshopteacher#joblocks#gaugeblocks#starrett
It is Ideal, you know! even watching on a phone the scale was easy to see. My dad suggested long ago that the ideal was never accurate enough to use as a height gauge.. but a relative run-out indicator to center a workpiece in a 4 jaw, it was 'ideal'... because absolute value is unimportant, but seeing relative runout in jaw centering is important. We had one on the lathe for decades.. I have no clue where it went.. many of dad's tools disappeared after his passing. This video was sort of a memory trip. THANKS!
Mr. Pete, a stained or lightly rusted block is not unusable, it is unreliable, for rough work it can tell you when you are close.When that ideal indicator was new it was probably accurate enough that it sold well. Back then was about the same as when you were in your prime you did not buy crap junk tools. You got the best you could afford, not the lowest cost you could find. I am 10 years younger than you, I am almost a shut-in, thank you for being on RU-vid. You keep me from wasting to uselessness. One of the problems as I aged is essential tremor, it is hard to eat peas with a spoon unless I smash them a little. My trade, I worked on computer systems I used to rebuild disc drive heads and platters. I could measure the thickness of the film left after alcohol evaperated, it mattered which kind we used because of the film. Keep up your great work, you are not boring us.
I love the history. It is important for all of the current CNC guys to understand how we got here. Things used to be done on paper with pencil and slide rule, not CAD/CAM and CNC... I was sad the day my Grandfather died because he had lived from the age of the horse and buggy up til the Space Shuttle... To have been able to see the change that took place in just one man's lifetime... So thank you for sharing the history, it is very important!!!
Thanks for dismantling the Ideal indicator. I've got one of the type over here in the UK, it very dirty and 'stuck', so soaking in a sealed jar of brake cleaner, think it might be a Starret. I now know what to expect when I strip it down. My plan, assuming I can get it to work, is to check the run out in my lathe on set up so really using it as a comparator, accuracy of measurement is not important. As always a fascinating project with history lesson thrown in for free.
I did my required reading Mr Pete. I found both pages very intresting. So many good links to click on and read. I bet Wikipedia have noticed a large spike of people viewing those pages thanks to you. We had our Apprentice Training Master, Mr Ray Benson. (In Australia trade called "Fitter & Turner" ) You remind me of him.. Thanks.
The dog ate my algebra homework once,it looked like someone took a pair of pinking shears and went all around the edges! My proper type German algebra teacher still accepted it because all the work was readable. Although he wasn't pleased!
I have a test indicator that at first glance is a duplicate of the Ideal indicator. Mine is British made and has a cut-out window so that the indicating needle doesn't have to be split. It has a 0.015" range. One side is graduated in Imperial and the other side is metric. I've found it to read accurately across it's range. I've had the indicator over 50 years, but rarely use it. Test indicators like the Starrett Last Word are more convenient to use.
I really enjoyed your Video on Carl Johansson. Thank you. I felt that I was right back in shop class oh so many years ago. I can still see my shop teacher, and I sware that I heard his voice when you gave out the assignment. I did both assignments by the way. I am anxiously awaiting your follow-on using calipers. Thanks Again Gary 75-Year-Old Home-Shop-Machinist in North West Arkansas
Great knowledgeable video! Just found it interesting and watched and learned something new! Thumbs up! Laughing at, whoops there goes the needle! Good humor!
When you place the Jo-Blocks under the Ideal, the whole unit looks to flex on the close-up video, as if the mount may be loose. The thicker the block, the greater the deflection seemed to be. I think the accuracy of the unit itself was okay. With a couple of Last Words, the Ideal is redundant anyway. Keep 'em coming Schulmeister!!
Tolerances and accuracy from 1900 are still usable today. But the metrology advances made between 1900 and today are almost miraculous! It's so cheap to measure accurately now, but machining to what we can measure is still expensive, or time consuming... More than 3 digits to the right of the decimal is getting into the noise. I wonder if kids nowadays learn about significant digits anymore? I was trained at the end of the sliderule age, and significant digits were hammered into us at every turn. Even after calculators were affordable.
Not quite where I was going, but accurate non-the-less! I like the wit! It's not just for students, tho. I've been out of university for almost 30 years now, and my stagnant wages don't spread as far as they used to.... I was aiming for this: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-5UjwJ9PIUvE.htmlm8s
@@stxrynnWhat? Everyone knows that the circumference of a circle with a diameter of 10 inches is 31.415926535897932384626433832795 inches, not 31 or 31.4 Who are you trying to fool? But yeah you'd think NASA would need some hairy accuracy when plotting a course to Mars, but no. they use 3.14
@@bcbloc02 ...because those were not insignificant in the employed metric. Right? Plank's constant has significant digits out to 10^42. Atomic force microscopes detect deflection's in the picoNewton range. It doesn't change what I said about calculating a trajectory to Mars.
I am amazed where you find all these old instruments let alone the time and work you invest into a video like that one, actually all your videos. Thanks, it was very informative. This must have been even before my time.
Mr. Pete, I have a small collection of vintage mechanical test indicators. The Ideal is my favorite. I bought it on EBAY for $3.00. Coincidently, the original price was $3.00. It is so compact. I keep it set up in a QC toolholder on my 12in. Atlas lathe. I get very good results indicating my work. Thanks for all the great videos. Howie
ok Mr. Pete, we know that you never throw anything away. LOL. When I was working, we just bought new gage block sets that were Chinese made as it was far cheaper to buy new ones rather than pay for calibration. At the time, 6 years ago, you could buy them on sale for under $ 100.00 USD and they came with certification. Good to see that you moved the gage blocks to the indicator as you never move the indicator to the piecework, also do not moving directly towards the indicator stylus, but at a sideways movement, or from the hinge side. there is less chance of ' bouncing ' the set up. Lever indicators were never meant to check multiple heights, only used for repeatability due to cosine errors. You need to get your hands on an Interapid or an Alina .0001 indicator if you can. Then you can have some real fun with testing. have fun !
You can take the teacher out of the classroom but you can't take the classroom out of the teacher, most interesting. Thanks I enjoy the historical sections very much.
Hello MrPete Greetings from Great Britain. I have a set of the Johansson Ford blocks in Original Bakelite box. Keep up the great videos,and look after your self.
If you look very carefully at the tip of the Ideal indicator as you put the blocks under it the body of it moves upwards very slightly. I'm watching on a 37inch monitor btw.
Thank you Mr Pete. I have a partial set of miss matched gauge blocks and there are some with Johansen, Ford and Brown & Sharp. I also saw the calibration video that you mentioned.
The primary pivot shows considerable slop, indicating it is severely worn thus causing the error measured. A challenge or the old eyes would be to manufacture a new bushing to restore it to useful condition. I'm seventy four and have several magnifying devices for the times I stupidly try something like that (lol). Love your videos. From "downunder".
Sir, i have to introduce a youtuber name Uri Tuchman, he just hand made a similar indicator, he is kind of a middleage craftman more than a 20 century machinist. With some crazy details on simple items and educated twist humour that can make you laugh, definitely worth looking. Don't miss that guy, he had skill, humour and some diy power
Love the old tools got a few some older machinist gave me years ago . Going to make me a shelf and display in the shop. Think these antique tool are awesome . Great video Mr. Pete Watching in Alabama!
Great Video Mr. Pete !!!! Love The History !!! It Is Well Known That The Ideal Company Knowingly Hired Several Rabbits With Saddle Bags In The R&D Department Starting Around 1903 .
Thanks again for another great video. I wish to take exception with one of your statements. When you started to disassemble the ideal indicator you said,"this is a job for a jeweler." I think you might have met a watchmaker since jewelers make jewelry and for the most part do not repair watches or other small instruments. I hope that no one thinks this is too critical since I love watching these videos. Paul.
The ideal indicator housing is flexing upwards when you slide the larger stacks in, I bet that's where you're getting your 1 to 1.5 thousands error - flex over the length of the housing. Great video as always!
What a coincidence, I have Single Ideal Test Indicator in the original box! Of course what single means is that the needle and graduations are on one side only. This indicator came with a 0.250 by 0.500 mounting bar and nothing else. Maybe this video will get me to test it and perhaps make some other ways of holding it.
Mr. Pete, The question you asked about combinations is, like all easily asked questions, quite complicated. I’m not a machinist, but I own a farm and a few math degrees (and I’m hooked on your channel). Combinations suggest that order does not matter, 1.000 + 0.001 is the same as 0.001 + 1.000... Not sure, but I suppose, practically these are equivalent when combining Jo Blocks. But since each block has two “faces”, there are four configurations to wring two blocks. Then if the orientation matters (rotate each block 180) then there are eight (or 16?) configurations to wring two blocks… ugh! OK, let’s assume, the “cow is a perfect sphere” then if there are 81 blocks in a set and one can use all of them to create “a width”… the possibilities are huge! The math reads- n! = 81! = ~6 x 10e120 (big). If you typically use two at a time to create an accurate width, no repetitions and the order of wringing matters (permutations) the selection reduces… the math is n!/(n-k)!. n = number of Jo Blocks, k = how many you use to create a “width”- 81!/(81-2)! = 6480. One more, if we go “simple” and say something like, “81 blocks available, pick any 2”, the “combinations” (no repetition, order doesn’t matter) reduce further. The math is n!/(k!(n-k)!) = 81!/(2!(81-2)!) = 3240. 😊
Thank you, that is an interesting observation. In a future video, I will show the doall Book. The book lists the 10,000 possibilities for stacking the blocks up to 1 inch. Using the 81 block in the Set. Also possibilities if you have more than one set. The book is 3/4 of an inch thick
There was also a project in a book for the Unimat for a similar indicator. I made one, but it's good for relative measurements only (the cheapest dial indicator is more accurate).
I like Maudsley's name for the bench micrometer he created (one of the first micrometers to measure to tenth thousands of an inch) in his shop, "he called it the "Lord Chancellor", as it was used to settle any questions regarding accuracy of workmanship." The Lord Chancellor being a member of the English government and head of the judiciary.
I've got an Ideal indicator, strictly as a souvenir and never took it to mean thousanths, simply a relative indication such as for centering. Seems to me it could only be calibrated by reworking the probe tip to alter the effective length and so...nah.....No wait - make an overlay for the scale. Great piece of old tech though!
I have one of those Ideal indicators, came in a used tool chest I bought. It was a rusty mess, soaked it EvapoRust, cleaned up OK a little sticky though, may have to take it apart. Why do gauge block manufacturers always use wooden cases, you'd think they would know better? Good lesson mrpete!
I always understood that the last word style indicators are a comparator and are not really to be used as a direct measuring device as since the stylus moves in an arc and not a straight line there always will be some error due to the arc motion being translated to a linear movement.
"Properly wrung blocks may withstand a 75 lbf (330 N) pull. While the exact mechanism that causes wringing is unknown" It boggles the mind that something so simple is still unknown!
Another informative video, THANKS! The set up did with the IDEAL might not be ideal. You might get better results if you think of the 5 on the indicator as your zero. In effect preload the mechanism. Then change blocks to add/subtract up to .005 That might (should) yield better results. I would never trust test or dial indicators for anything but "relative", and that means start in the middle. Long winded 2 cents worth.
"You must never store things in a wooden box" - Next scene - Fowler (wooden box) holding gauge blocks. :) So my questions are Why are so many tools sold, stored in wooden boxes? Is that the reason for lining with felt? Love your videos and you may "wander" as you will. Usually always learn something when you do!
Other manufacturers made similar test indicators. I have a few of the Lufkin 199 (199A) indicators from the 1950's. I still use them sometimes. Here's a couple of patents you may want to look at: USP 2090495 and USP 228497 both to Witchger and assigned to the Lufkin Rule Co.
I can see the "Ideal" indicator moving slightly during the tests. It is very subtle and you have to look very closely, but it could be roughly 1/1000th of movement (one pixel or so on the screen). I think it is a lack of rigidity in the setup allowing for this. I bet with more rigidity it will indicate dead on. Great video, thanks!
@mrpete222 I think the video you referred to on gauge block calibration is here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mKzFXJCryrU.html This is a tour of A.A. Jansson and it shows the entire process of certification. This video begins with the history of the company and the development of gauge blocks in general.
I hope you're ok after the Harbor Freight visit. ...?? I go there occasionally. I like to look around. Once in a while I will buy something. I assume you exchanged the first caliper... Thanks again for your great knowledge. Really like the historical significance of tools. Amazing how many tool manufacturers there are.
Sometimes imagination capture our mind. And i can only imagine what that ford stamped blocks or bs were used to measure or build. And who were the men used them. That's why sometimes is better to collect something instead throwing it away.
For a typical 81-piece set, it's 2,417,851,639,229,258,349,412,351 combinations! for a 36-piece set we have 2^36 - 1 = 68,719,476,735 possible combinations.
Considering how basic the mechanism is on that indicator and god only knows how much wear it has a thou and a half error is pretty good ! You most certainly couldn’t centre a piece in a four jaw chuck using the old surface or scribe gauge any better than that . P.S i love my little last word indicator ! Even though i have indicators made Switzerland i still reach for that little Starrett unit every time .
"Rewinding" the video a few times after you opened the case, you can see there is wear in the pivots as the indicator point/lever was actuated. Just send it back to the manufacturer for repairs. lol. Imagine locating a replacement spring and then replacing it? Delicate and crude but, it worked. Nice relic.
I can't say for sure but it looked like the tip on the Ideal indicator, was not centered and off a little. Maybe if the tip was inline with the holder it may have given a better reading.
I’ve come across this video 4 years after publication. I wonder how accurate this mechanical indicator is if used as a plus or minus gauge using the .005 as mid range and using it that way. In reality when an indicator is setup it is setup in such a way that you can measure high and low side of tolerance not just the measurement you’re trying to get to. That is if the indicator has the range, but certainly this could work if your tolerance is plus or minus .003? It would be nice if the video showed that as an example as well.
I think that the Ideal indicator only has its age working against it. It looks like it has a worn pivot, either the pin or the hole, or both. That would certainly make it inaccurate. The geometry of the tool says that given precisely fitted parts, it should be quite accurate and repeatable.
Great video Mr. Pete....you mentioned not storing tools in a wooden box. What is the reason that many tool makers have a Gerstner chest? I built boxes out of walnut for storing my grind vises and spin fixture. I put piece of camphor in the boxes and it seems to keep things from rusting. Keep up the great videos!
The Ideal is old and the pivot point is worn. I doubt that jewels were used in its manufacture. The most common area of usage would naturally be somewhere in the middle of the scale. That put all the wear in that area of the pivot points. Imagine someone letting the lathe spindle run while checking run out of workpiece.
You could try that again on the other side I think if you look at the tip you will find one side is no longer round and since the unit read low at the top of its range I'm going to guess that the back side is slightly flattened do to wear and not being round is the number one reason to reject
The Ideal gage while inaccurate could still theoretically be used to check runout or vise alignment since the target measurement is "zero" as long as the needle has close to zero back lash. Obviously the modern jewelled indicator is the way to go I wonder how accurate a brand new ideal gage would be, since they no longer exist as "new" I suppose that will remain a mystery.
Mr pete thank you for you time and sharing your knowledge. I think the indicator that was not reading correctly was set up at an incorrect angle. If the angle is a little steeper it should read correctly. i would like to know your thoughts?
The reading depends on the angle of the indicator due to cosine error. If you set the ideal indicator at an higher angle the reading shuld get better. Correct me i’m wrong.
I love when you insert historical items. A little note you may not be aware of: I, and I am sure others, watch you simply for the knowledge. I am not a machinest, I am a wood turner. But I do find you interesting and watch every video. I will never use gauge blocks or even measure in thousandth's of an inch more than a couple times in my life, accuracy to me is measured in 32nds. Just wanted you to know you do have a segment of your audience that watches just for the knowledge.
I like the video. Just one question for the teacher though. Having seen the inside of this indicator I can't imagine how it has become inaccurate. Do you have any ideas about why it reads .001 fine but .010 is off?
