Hey guys, I hope we responded with grace and truth. And I hope the best for Tim and Sarah, though we have strong disagreements. At the end of the day, I’m glad this interview took place and believe good conversations were generated that will cause people to go deeper in their faith walks. Support 24HRS WITH on Patreon!❤️ www.patreon.com/paulandmorganshow
I thought this interview was well done... I do land more on Tim's view of things, but I respect that you guys were willing to engage in this conversation and it was done in a very respectful and amicable way...
Just wanted to provide some food for thought in what you said about me, that I “call” myself a Christian. I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus, that he came to Earth, lived a blameless life, was crucified for my sins, and rose again. We may view a lot of things differently but I’d never say you’re not Christians just because I disagree with you on certain topics. This has been on my mind especially since you wouldn’t call Tim a Christian either. If it’s not about being a Christ-follower, then what qualifies a person to be considered a Christian? Being someone who has the exact same beliefs as you? If that’s the case, then I’m not sure how you can continue the 24 HRS With series since the goal of that is to foster unity as brothers and sisters in Christ by talking with people who have different viewpoints. I don’t know if you mean to dismiss or diminish my faith when you use that language, but it feels like that’s the intent and I’d hope that it’s not, because none of us are qualified to make the call on whether or not someone is saved. With all that said, I enjoyed your episode with TNE and appreciated seeing you collab with someone whose perspective is so different than your own. I’d love to see more conversations like that in the future.
It seems like their qualifier for whether they’ll call someone a Christian is “does this person believe being LGBTQ+ is a sin.” Kind of a shame that that’s the core message coming out of their channel.
I've read all kinds of books. Books that I agree with and books that I disagree with. Paul makes a valid point, however. If you value what modern scholars say about the Bible and theology more than you value what the Bible itself says, that's a surefire path to deconstruction. Don't see why that's a bizarre statement. It's Romans 1:22. "Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools..."
@jaredlowry970 "what the bible itself says"? Which version tho? With the catholic books as well? Or just the protestant ones? Before it was translated into English or after? KJV or the version the orthodox Christians use? "What the Bible itself says" really just means "how it looks to me in 2024". Paul so often says, "I feel..", "I think..", "it seems clear to me...". If I'm a christian, why should I agree with paul or just myself and ignore people who have devoted years or decades to studying scripture? Isn't that just leaning on your own understanding? Thought that was generally frowned upon .
We should be all spending intentional time in the word every day, period. Having said that, I completely disagree. Reading things you disagree with helps you understand your position and why you believe what you believe. Being educated is a GOOD thing!!! I don’t believe in evolution, but I think Christians should learn about it so they don’t sound like idiots when the topic comes up.
@@nataliepaad1869 The differences between all of the things you mentioned are relatively small in the grand scheme of things. Obviously they're talking about the Protestant bible because they're protestants; but the general gist is that you should have more of a focus on the bible itself than things derivative of the bible. I agree with his sentiment, I feel his communication of it was poor (as it sounds like he's saying being well-read is bad, as this comment says).
Regarding daily devotion. Recall that for most of human history most people couldn’t read. The idea of individual reading of the word didn’t exist until maybe the last 200 years? For 1800 years the word was read out loud in group settings and discussed with experts in the room to weigh in. Daily devotion can be healthy for some but there is nothing unhealthy about gaining most of your understanding through others (in fact that is more biblical historically). The risk of reading it on your own as a primary growth mechanism is you become blind to your own fish tank. You don’t realize how much of your own context, translation, history, upbringing, and recent experience etc is coloring your view of the word and clouding your ability to gain wisdom from it.
How would you guys feel if people said, “They call themselves Christians” when referring to you? Why do you feel the need to say that? It’s so condescending and unnecessary.
Surely there are people who call themselves Christian who you think are incorrect to do so? How would you label such people? At the very least, since you seem to be Eastern Orthodox, you consider P & M (and myself) not part of the true church. So if Morgan says she is part of the ture church, you are going to say "Morgan says she is part of the true church" or something similar; right? What's the difference here?
It’s so interesting to me your understanding of Tims view. EVERY Christian church literally has a a faith “of their own making” as you say. Catholics, Pentecostals, baptists, ect. NONE of Tim’s ideas are new. They’ve been talked about by Christians for a LONG time. The ones that have been accepted as “truth” by evangelicals are just the ones that keep certain people in charge and with power. Tim’s WHOLE idea is that there absolutely HAS to be accountability amount Christian’s- and it seems like evangelicals give a pass every single freaking time it’s convenient. Aka just like trump.
Was not the WHOLE POINT of Jesus to BREAK the clinging/ clutching to principles and to simply LOVE PEOPLE. And any theology/principles/beliefs that cause humans to believe its ok to harm other fellow humans, is morally and completely wrong. If indeed its Gods rules, let God tell people. Its not peoples job to tell other people they are sinning or wrong.
The whole point is that we are sinners in need of a Savior, which is Jesus. He came to the world to die for our sins. That's love. Jesus also ruffled a lot of feathers. He didnt "just love people". He confronted sin and hypocrisy. Love confronts your sin and tells you there is freedom from being a slave to sin. Jesus is the one thay sets us free. When Jesus began His ministry, He says "Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand". I don't understand why people think we are to "just love people". If I know someone is lost and on their way to hell, isn't it more loving to tell them the truth?
Telling the truth is very important. How you tell it is equally important. Overturn the tables of the money changers, but let the children come and do not hinder them. Don't turn them away.
Bc Jesus doesn't have a human nature or ego, and I do. When i try to play Holy Spirit in others lives, the outcome is ALWAYS self agrandizing and ugly. Makes me the focus and not Jesus.
I used to be very black and white in my thinking. I didn't believe in dinosaurs because it wasn't in the Bible. I believed in a literal 6 day creation. Etc. Raised A/G. I went to Christian university and learned how to think critically and I know longer hold to some of these beliefs. I learned that ancient biblical writers had their message they were trying to convey. 6 days for creation could have taken millions of years. Its a miracle no matter what. Adam and Eve could have been symbolic and that's ok too. The bible is a theological book. It is inspired by God and it is true but may not be literal. God is mercifully and I trust in the Lord. I long to understand the Bible more but God is mysterious and there are many things we do not know.
Paul is missing the fact that when Tim reads scholars he is also trying to get at the truth of what the Bible says. That's why he reads a wide variety of people's opinions because he wants to get as close to the truth as possible. Paul and Tim have the same goal: to understand what the Bible says. Everyone makes interpretive decisions about the best way to understand what the original authors meant. Just because Tim disagrees doesn't mean he is wrong.
Tim has a truth that he wants. An ideal that he seeks validation on. He isn't searching for the truth. He's searching for his own worldview in the Bible and picks the guys that affirm that.
@@LTProductions335 how is that any different from what Paul or any other Fundamentalist does when they read the Bible? No one starts from a completely neutral position. The best we can do is acknowledge our biases and read widely.
@@jonathanwedge3354 your not merely acknowledging your world view when say "maybe its not the inspired word god." When you do that, now your giving yourself a license to make the Bible what you want. Instead of molding your world view with your view on the world and seeing the outcome, You're molding the word with your world view and getting what suits you out of it.
@@jonathanwedge3354 and the fact that he was most heated about was politics speaks volumes. That's his focus, politics which has pretty much become his religion. He says he's Christian but really all he did was make the word of God want he wanted based on what he cares most about politics
That last comment was harsh. When they are reading the Bible, they are trying to understand the word of God. All of us miss God's point sometimes, because we are not omniscient - that's being human.
I think we have the terms “traditional” and “progressive”flipped. Tim’s approach is traditional and is more in line with the Eastern Orthodox beliefs, stemming back to the apostles themselves. Paul is more rooted in beliefs tracing back to the reformation, which is only a few hundred years ago. The reformers specifically were against tradition (“tradition” is not one of the “sola”’s). Christianity didn’t start with the reformation…
No one since the start of Christianity including Jesus and Pauls teachings ever affirmed homosexual lifestyles period. Tim is outside of orthodoxy on that period. To your overall point I tend to agree specifically with Eastern Orthodox beliefs.
Actually PnM's type of conservative evangelical theology is not traditional protestantism (over 500 years) either, but dates to the literalism movement from mid 1800 as a reaction to new scholarship.
@@helenr4300 I’m not arguing that Paul and Morgan’s theology is perfect either fyi. But they color in the lines of orthodoxy. Tim does not and like I stated above no church father or biblical writer are aligned with his views. Period full stop. He is a heretic according to the church. Doesn’t mean I don’t think he is funny, articulate and very witty.
What all of these disagreements hinge on is interpretation of the Bible. Once you stop seeing the Bible as God speaking directly to man, but man trying to understand god, it gives such a perspective shift. It helped me find my relationship with god and spirituality again.
I agree! I’m no longer a Christian, but still come back to the Bible over and over because I think parts of it are quite insightful, and even divinely inspired - just not the in the dogmatic ways I was taught.
The Bible is meant to be read as God intended…and as any other historical writing is read. Narrative is read as narrative, poetry as poetry, historical documents as history/verified through secondary sources and archeology, correspondence in context of who is writing to whom and original intent. We shouldn’t interpret a work of historical literature through our own cultural lens, preferences, and desires. The Bible is a meta-narrative about God, His character, His people, and His redemptive plan for humanity. If we read it like that, understanding each genre is to be read a little differently, we can understand what God loves and what He hates. That’s the goal.
@@kimberlymurray304 I appreciate your perspective on reading the Bible within its historical and literary contexts. Understanding the genres and original intents of the texts is indeed valuable. However, interpretations can still vary even when considering these factors. My journey led me to see the Bible as a collection of human attempts to understand the divine, which has deepened my spiritual connection. For me, this approach allows for a more personal and evolving relationship with God, one that acknowledges the complexities and nuances of faith. I understand this can be a difficult concept for those who have spent their whole lives being told these are the exact words of God. However, it’s important to remember that the Bible is not the only religious text in the world. Many different cultures have their own sacred writings, each offering unique insights into the divine. This perspective helps me see that all gods might be different understandings of the same God, reflecting our shared human quest to connect with the divine. How do you reconcile different interpretations that arise even among scholars who adhere to the historical-literary method?
@@kimberlymurray304 I appreciate your perspective on reading the Bible within its historical and literary contexts. Understanding the genres and original intents of the texts is indeed valuable. However, interpretations can still vary even when considering these factors. My journey led me to see the Bible as a collection of human attempts to understand the divine, which has deepened my spiritual connection. For me, this approach allows for a more personal and evolving relationship with God, one that acknowledges the complexities and nuances of faith. I understand this can be a difficult concept for those who have spent their whole lives being told these are the exact words of God. However, it’s important to remember that the Bible is not the only religious text in the world. Many different cultures have their own sacred writings, each offering unique insights into the divine. This perspective helps me see that all gods might be different understandings of the same God, reflecting our shared human quest to connect with the divine. How do you reconcile different interpretations that arise even among scholars who adhere to the historical-literary method?
@PaulandMorgan Paul you state repeatedly you arent a fan of listening to all the "interpretations" of other people when it comes to scripture. My question is simply this, when you really get into the Bible as you said who is interpreting what you read? And if you are taking in and interpreting the Bible yourself, why is you reading and interpreting more valid than someone else reading and interpreting it differently?
Low IQ point. There are only 2 interpretations to the Bible - those who resist and are in the flesh, or those who are in the spirit. Should your reply have a million interpretations? Of course not. The Bible is a very simple text to follow, and any assertion otherwise is satanic subversion.
They are talking about looking at Paul's interpretation and comparing it to others. If one oughtn't listen to others interpretations, then that means no one need listen to any of these podcasts which I don't think of where Paul and Morgan intend this conversation to end up
It seems like you guys never addressed Tim and Sarahs concerns? They had genuine questions of how you guys hold to certain perspectives on theology, LGBTQ inclusion, abortion etc etc. Coming from Tim's audience it would be nice to hear how you come to the conclusions you do besides "the bible is clear", or "bible says so". What scholars do you consult so you can understand the larger context, at the very least? Just taking the bible as it is does not cut it for me because of the implications it has in my view of the world and relationships with others.
Those are fair questions. I would also think it would be interesting to hear their thoughts regarding Tim's original complaint that the problems of subjectivity in textual interpretation do not disappear. Is not Paul's desire for an infallible, divinely inspired document itself a subjective desire, capable of biasing him against the facts of the biblical revelation and thus equally (if not more) problematic than Tim's alleged desire for greater personal autonomy? Is conservative "submission to the Word" not itself an act of the will, having as its motive something other than truth-e.g., a sense of security in a world of uncertainties, a sense of uniqueness and superiority in a world of great plurality, etc.? Supposing, hypothetically, that God were such to desire to reveal himself through a providentially fallible, contradictory [1], and extraordinarily complex document such as the Bible, would conservatives nevertheless, due to their own peculiar psychical make-up, not nevertheless attempt to iron out an unproblematic, infallible text to serve their own subjective needs? Is this not exactly what they've done? Indeed, is the fact that God-sovereign and utterly free-might actually freely select this manner of self-disclosure, has never occurred to them or received serious contemplation itself strong evidence of the strength of the human desire for certainties that God has not ordained them to have? Voltaire once said that, if God did not exist, nevertheless it would have been necessary to invent him. I feel much the same about the infallible, easy-to-grasp "Word" of P & M. Even if God did not intend for us to have such a thing, something which seems to me more and more clear upon the analysis of historical, intellectual, and moral content of the Bible, nevertheless I cannot help but think that those of a conservative constitution would have invented such a thing to suture their own personal needs for such a thing. [1] Here, I am using contradictory to include all forms of tension, such as those of a factual nature, but also a moral nature, such as tensions between our basic moral intuitions and descriptions of apparent acts of injustice recorded in Old Testament depictions of God.
Hey, assuming you’re an atheist, agnostic or progressive Christian I could see how “the Bible is clear or the Bible says so” would not feel sufficient for you when dealing with weighty topics. But for us, it is. We choose to read and trust that God’s ways are better, higher and more trustworthy than our own. The Bible is clear on a lot of things. It’s whether or not we want to listen and obey
@@PaulandMorganSo don’t bother talking to other people with different beliefs if you don’t have the comprehension to take anything into account what they say.
@@PaulandMorganI can't tell if you're misunderstanding people's questions or being intentionally dense about them. Their questions and points revolved around the fact that you clearly take some parts of the bible literally and not others. You make concessions about verses when it's convenient but not when it hurts other people who aren't you. AND you ignore Paul's advice to judge things by their fruits, while the fruit of unaffirming theology is often death.
A lot of your own biblical interpretations are also based on scholars and their interpretations which influence how you learned to read scripture in your own denomination/churches you just may not know the name of the scholars or the name of the theologies but we’re all shaped by our denominations and the people who started them
That's why it's important to rely first on the, Holy Spirit, for guidance in truth. It's good to listen to other denominational teachings too and to have discernment. If you are a true Bible believing follower of, Christ... It shouldn't be hard to know who holds to solid Biblical doctrine. It's also ok to not have a 100% solid understanding with secondary issues that aren't clear to us yet. Prayer and fasting on those things you don't understand is important in a Christians life. As long as we have the doctrinal essentials that a true Christian should hold to. Studying His Word, to show ourselves approved.
I’m curious about your opinions on the Schnacky Family and their content that they post…….I would love to see a video with them, ideally the family but especially with Allie schnacky, her siblings and the other members like her best friend Carol Chavez, and her boyfriend Austin Armstrong, and Dad schnacky
That’s wild ! I think it was quite the opposite. Paul sat quietly and listened to so so much without interrupting and anytime Paul talked it was cut short.
I was looking forward to this video, but found it pretty disappointing to be honest. It seems like you're missing the forest for the trees - you zoomed in on really minute details instead of looking at the overarching criticism that came up again and again. I was really interested to hear how you come to your biblical conclusions. I do agree that it seems like Tim leans too much on outside sources rather than the Word, but, on the other hand, it seems like you don't do it enough - instead relying only on your own understanding. Could you mention what version of the Bible you use and/or what commentaries you do read that have been instrumental in forming your beliefs? Also curious on your take that the video focused on a couple of specific topics (same as your other vids): A LOT of s3x talk (who can have it, when, and what about the possible results) and is Tim a Christian or not. It would be nice to expand this - I really enjoyed the conversations about topics such as the afterlife and literal/figurative translations (also would like to see the politics discussion)
They have always been that that way. They really don’t want to reevaluate their beliefs, the 24h is just a cash grab scheme in my opinion.
4 месяца назад
I think Tim had humility in recognizing that the Bible isn’t as clear as we want it to be and to recognize he doesn’t have all the answers. I don’t think Paul and Morgan have gotten to that place yet-which I understand having grown up in the Evangelical world where there’s an unspoken emphasis on having all the answers. Exploring denominations for me has been freeing realizing that not everything is as black and white as the Evangelical world makes it out to be. I think this realization makes it easier to hold space for others.
He obviously applies what he wants to the Bible. It's ridiculous to say tim has "humulity". He thinks his world view is superior and finds people that affirm and apply to the Bible.
Before making any criticism, I'll say I appreciate that you were open to spending time and creating content with someone whose views are very different than yours. I'm sure those videos get more pushback than the videos with people whose beliefs are closer to yours, but I hope you can keep putting yourself into those uncomfortable situations across the whole spectrum of Christian beliefs. Having said that, I don't agree with the criticism that Tim knows "too much" or that his interest in exploring scholarly perspectives comes at the expense of his faith. If you are a person of faith, it seems like this would be *the* most important thing to learn thoroughly and question to be sure you aren't way off. I always loved Hosea 4:6 for a reminder that often ignorance leads to destruction. I think taking what we are taught at face value without a willingness to criticize it is dangerous too; we can look at the Pharisees or even Paul before his conversion to see that someone can believe a faith, study and learn their holy texts better than anyone, follow the law to the letter, and still completely miss the point of what is most important in their faith. That last bit isn't to say you have to completely sacrifice what you believe, just that I think it's very easy to come to a biblical Christianity that asks us to be willing to question and seek knowledge from a place of curiosity and humility.
Yep! I TOTALLY understand Sarah’s viewpoint on LOVING birth, loving motherhood, and never wanting someone to have to do that who doesn’t want a child. It’s freaking HARD. It’s dangerous (being pregnant and birth). Having my child has made me MORE pro-choice. Love. Love love my baby. But I don’t want people raising babies who don’t want them.
It also comes down to the fact that pregnancy is a health condition. I have a disease while pregnant and forcing me to be hooked up to tubes is putting my already born children in danger of losing their mom. They live in some perfect world where it’s easy to not care about others
It’s crazy how much they’ve missed the point on this. It’s literally just about people choosing what they do with their lives. I’m a PhD candidate, it takes everything I have, I’ve been working on my research night and day for four years, and I love it. It’s the right thing for me. That doesn’t mean I think everyone should get a PhD. They choose to be RU-vidrs, I choose to be an academic. Some people choose to be parents, some people don’t. It’s as simple as that, LET PEOPLE LIVE THEIR DAMN LIVES.
Jeez what was that? There were so many things that Tim stumped you on, and you didn’t address barely any of them. You could see Paul was really struggling with those arguments because he clearly never has even considered that the Bible has faults (which is just a fact), and it seems intentional now. He has a worldview that he is comfortable with and I think he genuinely isn’t interested in realising the shortcomings of his worldview because it’s not convenient for him. That was telling when you said you wouldn’t respond to my chat in the live (I know you were referring to mine). You almost never address criticism or opposing arguments, and when you do you just move the goalpost. You are right Paul, you are not a good debater, because you don’t learn anything, and you don’t really care. I think the 24 hours things is for ulterior motives $, rather then genuine interest in other perspectives.
It’s not 24 hrs ha it’s a cute little title so pathetic two people who idk if they finished college ?? Trying to be influencers and make that sweet sweet influencer cash like BDawn! 😂😂 I can’t
I just want to point out that taking the Bible literally is not taking what it says in modern day English with our current cultural understanding at face value. It means understanding the culture in which it was written, the people group it was originally written to/about, and the nuances of the original language. You can’t have a literal reading without all of that. All of that matters significantly. We do need trusted scholars who are steeped in the ancient world the Bible was written in and who know and study the language to help us understand and get to the heart of what is being said. If we don’t have that, the truth is we’ll be missing the point at times. Yes, we can read scripture alone and should be diving into ourselves, but the appropriate outside scholars and resources can enhance that study. He mentioned N.T. Wright, Tim Mackie and the Bible Project, and John Walton. They are nowhere near progressive. They are solid and reputable Christians holding to orthodox beliefs that have a whole lot to offer and help us grow in the knowledge and love of scripture alongside being guiding by the Spirit. He uses the knowledge of others to help guide as to truth as well. We need to be selective on who we listen to, but there are scholarly voices worth listening to. For what it’s worth, I’m a pastor’s wife. Neither my husband and I are progressive. We also hold scripture highly. I just agree with Tim on the fact that knowing and understanding the world and language and people of the time is key, and we need scholars to help with that. We can have an understanding without that, but generally we would not have the whole picture. Just my thoughts.
Amen. The work of NT wright and others helped me connect with Paul as a real human being struggling and improvising ministry at the grassroots in ways that I never knew when I was taught to simply view him as a source for formulas of salvation tracts. But it was a process and I could not have done that without tools and good teachers.
36:55 , Paul, I sincerely want to know how you think not wanting to FORCE someone to give birth is wrong. Why would you want to force it on someone? A child? An SA victim? Why? I dont understand how that is so radical to have compassion for another persons choice and their right to safe treatment, and in many cases, their right to continue living. Its harder for me, personally to listen to the right and some christians passionately campaign to take away my bodily autonomy, it is absolutely terrifying. I have moved states for this being one reason, though I don't plan to get pregnant soon and use birth control to avoid an unplanned pregnancy, but even that is being threatened by some politicians that hold similar beliefs to yours on women having the choice. And the end of it all, roe v wade was not good for any women. It wasn't just about ab*rtion, it protected many rights even Morgan's choice to birth at home. States now have more freedom to tell you how and where you give birth. Choice will always be safest in my opinion. I'm from NC and ive known people that have gone for some nasty alternatives...it just does not solve anything taking our choice away.
Nobody forced anyone to have sex. God wants us to take responsibility for our actions. Nobody forced anyone to take there pants off. You do things right and have sex when you want to have baby then you're doing things right. You take your pants off for everybody that moves, that was your choice. Deal with the consequences.
I don't quite hold to Paul and Morgan's views on abortion. But surely you must say that *if* ensoulment occurs at conception, abortion kills a person so should be outlawed in almost all circumstances? If you don't think it does; that's fine. I don't think that either (although I still think it happens before the legal abortion date in my country so I'd like to see it substantially lowered). But shifting to arguments about "bodily autonomy" really shows a lack of understanding of their position. If it's a matter of life and death you don't think about things in that way. In terms of Roe v Wade the relevant point is a legal one rather than a moral one. If it protects people with this or that it doesn't really matter; since the principle is that the Supreme Court was overstepping their jurisdiction. They don't have the democratic authority to decide that.
Clearly the Bible can be interpreted in MANY ways, and you can decide to have an interpretation that chooses to see love and understanding or one that sees just sees hate because it’s the simplest path to follow.
I want to ask Paul and Morgan this: How do they think the Bible came about in the first place? Yes, it was written down by many different people, but who decided that these people's writings specifically are God-breathed? How do we know that maybe one of them or several of them were not charlatans who just pretended to write from God, or maybe they were channeling demons instead of being inspired by the Holy Spirit? And who decided which books would make it into the Protestant or Catholic Bible canon respectively? And then, who gave these people the authority to make these decisions? Why do Paul and Morgan put your faith in these people?
Regarding the Hell point, I don’t think Tim was being subjective on it. He was saying that there have been 3 views that have dominated Christian thought (eternal conscience torment, Annihilationism, and universal reconciliation). All of these views have Scriptural backing, which you would know if you ever read anyone outside your wheelhouse. The only reason you think ECT is so clear is because that’s the view you were likely raised with and you’ve been taught to see Scripture through that lens. However there is support for the others. Here is an example of a proof text for universalism: Romans 5:15-19, “But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ! 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.” I don’t know how you read that and not get out of it that death was brought to everyone through Adam’s sin but everyone will be justified and made righteous through Christ. If you say Christ’s sacrifice was only for some but Adam’s sin was for all then you make Paul a liar here. Now… you could exegete this verse differently, but it’s most natural fit is with universalism. There are other passages as well that support it.
And the reading you gave is well attested in the Patristic era, including theologians like the Cappadocians who held it uncontroversially and were personally responsible for defining what we call the Orthodox understanding of the Trinity. Erasing that history and the rich body of saints who held this view dismembers the Church and weakens the beauty of these ancient mysteries. Traditional Christian Apocatastasis makes the most sense of the Pauline corpus, preserves the highest view of God's sovereignty and the total victory of God in Christ in recapitulating and redeeming every inch of God's good Creation. Even though later Christian traditions have shied away from proclaiming it with the certainty of the Church Mothers and Fathers, fervently hoping and praying that it might be so remains a core tenant of the Catholic and Anglican traditions to this day, along with many others. Numerous Popes have said so, and prayers for all the departed and fervent trust in God's perfect mercy are at the heart of the Book of Common Prayer.
I would also add that it completely coheres with the logic of some of Jesus' most important parables, and that the harshness of his warnings of judgment do not preclude the sovereignty of God or God's ability to choose the duration of punishment. The logic of Christ teaching frequently surprises and shows unexpected depths of Mercy- for example the parable of the rich man and lazarus, where Abraham sees sending a person back from the dead to warn the depraved rich as futile, yet the Father chose to do just that with His own son. The way for the rich is so narrow it is like a camel passing through a needle- yet a few verses later we are told that for God, all things are possible.
@@CelticRover42 Yes! There are so many church fathers who supported universal reconciliation but I didn’t bother bringing that up because Paul and Morgan don’t seem like the kind of people to really care much about church tradition. I should know because I was in those spaces and they never talked about the church fathers (unless it was Augustine).
@@AustinPounds-ny5jx In fact Augustine was one of our best witnesses to the fact the vast majority of Christians in his time held that view, to his great annoyance.
This was the point in the video where it seemed like Paul almost was conceding, but it got glided over so fast. I don’t know if was the edit or a shift in the conversation. Paul hears Tim discuss Sheol and Gehenna and says he wishes it were more clear in the text exactly what to expect from Heaven and Hell. Moments later, it seems like Paul’s arguing again that the text is so clear. It just isn’t though!
Morgan, laughing that Tim's wife pointed out a weakness in Tim's perspective argument regarding 'could Jesus make a mistake' is derisive. Paul: That was a point where you could have indicated laughing at people is a weakness too. People have these conversations to learn and grow. It's like Morgan expected Tim to be perfect. There are teaching techniques which are corrective but affirming so that your followers and children can grow.
Hi P&M.. I’m here as a TNE supporter, but I have for sure known of you guys/your channel for some time so I was looking forward to this collab. I watched the original, then TNE’s response and now your response. I am a vote in favour of releasing the political discussion and letting the public be the ones to decide on whether or not Tim was emotionally worked up or if it was a fruitful discussion. I think everyone’s interest is way more piqued, and the answer given as to why it wasn’t put in was (sorry!!) sounding a bit like a cop out and not a legitimate reason. I think it would do more good for both parties to have both audiences see it. Just my two cents ☺️
The prior comment was harsh. What is fruitful from discussion, if you are in disagreement, is the opportunity to hear and understand another's perspective and share yours. Paul is strong minded, but he has great faith in his understanding of the Bible. And he does offer to do more searching in areas he hasn't considered. You're not likely to change his mind on all topics where you disagree, but that should be expected in any conversation between two people.
New to you guys, so if you’ve talked about this in previous videos, I apologize. How do you help single moms, foster children, etc. Would you consider adoption? I know Sara asked that exact question in their response and you skipped over that when discussing “baby deletion” or whatever you called it (I get it’s probably a RU-vid thing, so not making fun of that term, it was just new to me.) Just for credibility here, my husband and I have fostered children and we are adoptive parents.
@@madelynnnikole, I’m old (47) and have no idea was a “jw” is. 😂 Unless it’s Jehovah’s Witness, which I am not. I am a member of a southern Baptist church in central Alabama. It just makes me sad to see many Christians say they are pro life and all they do to show this is vote republican. In reality, there is much more to it than that. If we really want mothers to keep their babies, they need support from the church, community, and even the government (which I know some Christians are against). That was the point of my question. If we are to preach pro life, we need to actually do tangible things to help…support crisis pregnancy centers, foster, adopt, or support foster and adoptive families. I want to hear these things promoted along with how we should vote or the stance we should take. This is my first introduction to Morgan and Paul and I gave them the benefit of the doubt (and still do) that they may promote these things in other videos in their church, etc. But they didn’t in this particular video, so I thought I would ask.
@@madelynnnikolemy thoughts exactly. This is the path of questioning a lot of people who are for ab*%tion. Whether or not they can or are able to or even want to foster or adopt means nothing to the point that murder is wrong. They are human. You’re ending a life.
@@bradgarcia716 You are not considering the actual basis of this problem. You say you don’t have to adopt or support the system, but force more children to be put into it. Do you support higher taxes to help support these systems for children? Or do you consider that socialism? Is there actually a love for the children, or is it just until they’re born so you can revoke womens rights of choice and then tell them to fuck off after that? Do tell.
@@parkerrevelle2424 I’m against murder, of any human being especially in the case of the most vulnerable human beings on earth. The problem is whether or not the child in the womb is a human and if it is, there is no cogent argument for taking the life of another. All of that other stuff is just emotionalism
Besides, disagreeing with 99% of what you both say it is also incredibly difficult to take Morgan seriously when she continues to mumble, laugh, and talk in a baby voice.
Watched this because I watched the previous in good faith. Wow. Just. Wow. This is embarrassing. I pray for the ego and pride in both of you, Paul and Morgan. Cause this was just blatant deflecting and reframing. Really disgusted by you both. Still praying, because I know that biblically you are using the Lord's name in vain. Your views are anathema to 2000yrs of Christianity. Good luck.
@@juliajaeger8175 I always want to assume positive intent, and give the benefit of the doubt. I had never heard of either of these people before really, but the 24hrs with popped up and a brief perusal of their page I realised that they follow right wing culture and not the scriptures, so I knew I was going to disagree with them, but I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt. This video? Just disgusting behaviour. Full of pride and malice. I cannot believe they would put something like this up and feel good about it. For all their talk of scripture, everything they believe is based on 1900s American tradition. But the way they employ DARVO makes me legitimately sick. Abusive tactics for something so small. Yeah, I cannot stand this. I try to give chances to people even when I disagree, but Paul and Morgan are anathema.
You do know that you sit in the same camp as Tim, and read and believe the Bible because of what others have taught you, right?You may read it and spend time in it on your own time, but certainly you are reading and understanding it because of scholars (or pastors) have told you. If you actually sat with the words you are reading and asked a new set of questions you may actually find some new thoughts and conclusions.
27:14 in the video, it’s not just conversation, but rather, whether editing or real life, not allowing Tim to finish an answer before asking another question in a very “gotcha” style. It felt like watching a training video from something like the way of the master. I’m not sure what really happened, but I think what a lot of us are pointing out is it doesn’t feel or come across like Paul actually was listening to what Tim was saying
As someone recovering from problematic devotional experiences myself, I would encourage people to be mindful in jumping on someone who may not resume a particular practice during their healing process. I was grateful to discover the rich prayer tradition of the Anglican/Episcopal faith and ways in which it allows the Bible and beautiful voices down through the Christian history to speak simply without as much of the agenda or filter frequently seen in some Evangelical media. But it took me a significant amount of time to find that practice as safe and fruitful, and it did include sitting with teachers who helped me better understand the complexity of the Scriptures and things I had not been told so that I might approach it with new eyes. We are all on journeys, and people relate to God and the Bible in diverse ways if they have experienced religious exclusion or trauma.
I think Tim had humility in recognizing that the Bible isn’t as clear as we want it to be and to recognize he doesn’t have all the answers. I don’t think Paul and Morgan have gotten to that place yet-which I understand having grown up in the Evangelical world where there’s an unspoken emphasis on having all the answers. Exploring demonizations for me has been freeing realizing that not everything is as black and white as the Evangelical world makes it out to be. I think this realization makes it easier to hold space for others.
I think this video really demonstrates a a bit of a blind spot you guys have. I’m 35 minutes in and, well, you haven’t really begun to answer any of the questions that TNE asked in their video, or offer any rebuttals to the heavier points Tim was making in his commentary on the video you released. A lot of the points you have taken issue with so far seem… superficial, at best? You seem to have more issues with Sarah’s tones and mannerisms, or the niceties of conversation, than the points that either Tim or Sarah may have brought. And, given the way you reacted to Sarah saying the time she had with you was “fine”, it doesn’t seem like you guys are capable of reflecting on why other people might feel the way they do about you. You guys seem to take for granted your views and perspectives on the topic of discussion, but you don’t really seem to have the capacity of putting yourselves in someone else’s shoes and understanding the world from someone else’s perspective. Unfortunately, I’m disappointed so far, but I will try to edit this comment at the end to update my thoughts. EDIT: yeah, I finished out the rest of the commentary on the reaction and, well, all I can say is this video really felt lacking.
Progressive Christianity helped save my faith. I grew up with the same types of beliefs Paul and Morgan have. As a young adult I started realizing the Bible did in fact contradict itself. I was struggling with all these contradictions. I also realized believing the Bible was inerrant seems impossible. I found the Episcopal Church in which most are probably “progressive Christians”. When I met other Christians who didn’t believe in Biblical inerrancy, it saved my faith.
@@keesavedbygrace well there are lots of contradictions with numbers. There was a king that one part of the Bible says he was 8 years old when he became king and another passage says he was 18. There are lots of problems like that in the Bible. There are contradictions with Judas. I don’t have time to go over all of the contradictions right now. Check out RU-vid videos on the topic if you are interested.
Hmm, I think the fundie snark Reddit isn’t all bad. There’s 200k members so it’s not a monolith. Plenty of people that post are civil and mainly just make post/ comments with concerns about various fundamentalist beliefs. There ARE definitely gross people overstepping on there, no question about it. But I’ve also seen plenty of commenters that are civil and I could see them saying their same concerns to yalls faces in a respectful manner, people similar to Tim. If you’re interested in seeing some more balanced approaches, there’s a subreddit called fundiesnarksnark that comments on when people think people cross snarking lines in the main subreddit. Reddit as a social media is basically a giant forum, so it can be really fun but also a cesspool lol.
Plenty of civil comments on comments on patriots dot win, a donald trump forum, but there are also some racist and anti semitic comments. Somehow I don’t think you’d be fine with people being associated with that.
@@PaulandMorgan You also have to acknowledge that a lot of people on those subreddits are angry and hurting at the things you and others say about people like them. A lot of people on there have endured a lifetime of being told that they are less than by society, by their community, families, and churches. A lot of these people are disenfranchised and may feel isolated and not have much IRL community, so they seek it out online. And in a messed up way, dunking on people like you in a subreddit is the only meager form of “power” they have in their lives. I encourage you to watch Contrapoints’ video essays simply titled “J.K Rowling” and “Cancelling” for a nuanced perspective on this phenomenon.
@@RedPandaSquadronlmao “We are incapable of changing our homeschooled worldview in the slightest, we should start a RU-vid series about bridging the gaps between Christians!!” 🤡 🤡
Didn't Tim's wife Sarah say that Paul doesn't like interracial couples that he's basically a racist are you guys going to talk about that in the near future??? She was coming down hard on both of you guys. Like Morgan needed to get more sex education after the comment she made..
He did throw a tantrum in a video about interracial couples in, I believe, a Lord of the Rings show?? You know, a fantasy world where elves and orcs are real but interracial couples are apparently unrealistic
I think they deleted the video because of the pushback, but that “complaint” came from Paul not liking the new lord of the rings show. He claimed that it was too woke because of the 3 interracial couples and that was being “shoved down our throats” and he doesn’t see that many interracial couples in real life so it must be an exaggeration
@lindseystein9676 Yeah I REALLY want to see a statement from him on that. Two of Morgan's siblings have entered interracial marriages since the video, so he's probably changed his mind. I just wish he would say so, if that's the case.
I think what tim was trying to get at regarding the hell topic is that universal reconciliation is a valid interpretation of Scripture... In fact of the 6 original theological schools that were first established, 4 of them believed in universal reconciliation, 1 taught annihilationism, and 1 taught eternal conscious torment. There is just as much, if not more, scriptural grounds to make the case for eternal reconciliation than eternal conscious torment especially when you read scripture in their original languages. There are very knowledgeable scholars, David Bentley hart being one of them, who has studied the scriptures in their original languages and has come to the same conclusion as many of the original theologians. It is worth taking a look and digging into this more rather than just thinking that your specific understanding on hell is the true interpretation....
My husband found a sermon on a cassette tape from the 80s the other night. The preacher is no longer alive but everything he was talking about was everything that is still going on today. One of the things he talked about was once you begin to question parts of the Bible you eventually find yourselves with nothing to stand on. You come to a place where you even begin to question the things Jesus said as we see with Tim. Also, I think with Tims wife, if you spend any time on fundie reddit, it's so much focus on negatives and faults, whether real or imagined. Everyone has faults and if thats all you focus on, you can't see the good in people.
To be fair to Tim, he wasn't questioning what Jesus said. He was saying Jesus was Jewish, and like other teachers, used the Hebrew Bible as a teaching reference, likely sometimes not seeing it as literal (well of course). Not particularly controversial.
I thought i would totally agree with paul on everything and not like tim at all. I felt you where a bit harsh saying he wasnt a christian paul ! It did also make me reflect on weather i believe in a literal 7 day creation and 4o day flood so has given me stuff to think about to but still held onto my values, sexualty, gender ect
I truly hope you meant that request to Tim to send you some of those book titles. Books/papers written by biblical scholars are fascinating. Whether you ultimate agree with what the authors are saying or not, they’re still very interesting. It’s amazing just how many different interpretations of one book, the Bible, there is. If there was only one, true, obvious meaning of the Bible, then there wouldn’t be so many sects of christianity. Would you ever consider doing an episode of the 24 hours with… a rabbi? I think that would be so interesting to hear similarities and differences. Especially with questioning faith not being discouraged in Judaism. I’d love to see you guys talk about all of that.
The biggest and strongest message I received when in my junior year of my undergrad degree was people are devoted to religion due to their fear of nothingness after death. And when we were studying philosophers etc., this literally hit me like a brick wall. And I’ve not been the same since. Because it’s the most real thing I’d ever heard since childhood! Learning about death and being scared as a little child.! It finally ALL made sense! People use religion to placate their fears of death and what happens after? I see the Bible as I see Greek mythology. Metaphors. Ideas ways to think about life…Dont take this so literally! Treat ALL people the same and love all people. “Bad” people for example ( killers p3dophiles) I do believe in justice and an eye for an eye in severe circumstances. But I also belief in science and a woman’s right to choose… How you live and what you both preach? Is just so wrong and politics and religion shouldn’t go hand and hand that’s why the US sucks soo bad and why so many are expats now in other places…we are a joke and you both aren’t helping! Morgan’s giggles btw? She’s crushing on Tim! Watch out Paul! 😅 that’s a man!! 💕 intelligence? Is sexy! You both need to go to college and take a year or so of some literature, philosophy and sociology courses! Paul’s comment that “too much education” was sooo incredibly dumb! TBH! A good two years of college if you turned off the cult ideals in your brain? Would really help you both! Lastly in regards to politics it’s probably for the best! You CANT and shouldn’t be mixing religion into politics. For example Trump is NOT a true Christian and he used those people to win an election and now there are judges and laws that have been overturned due to this…literal idiot…LYING about religion and using voters that aren’t the sharpest tools in the shed! I’m glad Tim is worked up he should be! The only ones that “looked dumb” Morgan? Well you already know that don’t you?
This has seriously caused me to not only go deeper into the Word and be able to defend the faith but also start educating my children into the Christian Apologetics because I know it’ll get more challenging for them. Thank you!!
Apologetics is a terrible source to use when studying the Bible. They impose their own religious bias onto the text without actually trying to learn about the history of the collection of writings that came to be the Bible. Actual biblical Scholars are the best way to start studying the text.
Amen, mama. A lot of the big questions skeptics (and Christians) wrestle with today have been answered deeply and thoughtfully for many generations. The Bible does have answers for these hard topics and God is not afraid of our doubts and hard questions! The issue always comes down to authority; do we want God’s word to have the ultimate say so?…or our own feelings, comfort, and culture? Highly recommend Jonathan Park audio series, Paws and Tales podcast, Picture Book Apologetics, Answers in Genesis, and Mama Bear Apologetics for you!
24:26 with respect, Paul cut Tim off over and over. The idea that Tim asking to be able to finish his answer before Paul goes on to another question, baffles me.
Just imagine this for a moment. Let's say there was a woman named Jane and a woman named Jill who were brought up to believe in a book called the Boible. Their families and everyone in their community believed that the Boible contains the true, infallible word of God. They believe this because it's what they have been told for a thousand years. And on top of that the Boible says in it's pages that it is indeed the true, infallible word of God. Funny thing about this Boible is that it contains a scripture that says every family must sacrifice their first born child. Their community has been faithfully doing this for generations. They make up reasons for why God wants them to do this and why sacrificing their first born child is a good thing for human flourishing. They are told that if they didn't do this, there would not be enough food to feed their community and people would starve. So even though it might seem like a mean thing to do, God is actually just looking out for them. The Boible tells them that every child who is sacrificed gets a special place in heaven and it is actually a great honor to be sacrificed. After all, they would rather give their child up to God then allow them to grow up just to slowly starve one day. In fact, they are killing their children because they LOVE them! Then the day comes when the two women are to offer up their child sacrifice. Jane refuses to look her baby in the eyes, because she knows it will just make this hard. She gives her child over to the religious authorities, fully believing she is doing the right thing. Jill however can't help but look into her baby's eyes one last time. In a moment of empathy she realizes she can't follow through with it. Everything in her being tells her it's not right...no matter what the Boible and the authorities say. She tries to explain to her people why she believes that child sacrifice is not right, but her community shuns her for making up her own religion. After a time Jane a Jill die and are both face to face with God. God sternly asks Jane why she killed her own child. Jane is surprised at the question. "Because you told me to Lord!" God replies, "I never told you any such thing!" He explains that much of the Boible was indeed inspired, but despite that it was still just words written down by men. Some of these men were confused and just products of their time. Jane asks God how she was supposed to know this. God just answers "Did you think I would give human beings empathy for one another if I was just going to demand that they ignore it?" I don't know about anyone else, but if God asked me to explain my actions on earth...I would rather be able to answer that I was following my God-given conscience than a man-given book.
The Bible has been translated to English, so the average person can read and get a reasonable idea of what is going on by themselves. The role of scholars should be to enhance our understanding by adding information about the historical background, notes on when words don't translate well from Hebrew to English, etc. When a scholar comes up with an interpretation opposite of what the text literally says, that interpretation is not likely correct. What other English books do we assume the average person won't be able to understand at all on their own? By the way, I have an MA in Bible translation, so I have some knowledge about the subject.
There are so many books in English and any other language that we need explained and whose meaning we debate on. It’s not about not understanding as much as it is about recognising that meaning is not absolute in text. Talking about multiple textual interpretations is literally what literary studies are about. Texts can be extremely complex and most of them can be interpreted in MANY different ways. People literally get PhDs to learn how to do that. My PhD is in early modern drama and Shakespeare studies specifically; you can bet your ass I’m a lot more knowledgeable about Shakespeare and the meaning of the texts than the average person. And the first thing we teach undergrads is that texts can have multiple interpretations and that they can be true at the same time. That’s English 101.
@@aliceh5464 There is certainly other literature in English that is written in a way to purposely hide the meaning from the reader. However, when that is the case，it should be clear to the reader that is going on. For example，we all know that poetry is almost always that way and there may be deeper/different meanings hidden within (it is also clear that Shakespeare is that way). However，while the Bible has certain portions that are purposely written in a way to hide the meaning (prophecy/poetic, etc) portions, the main teachings of the Bible are written in a clear way that is meant to be taken at face value. Also, it is typically obvious which portions have hidden meaning versus which are meant to be taken literally. For most writing, we do assume the literal meaning automatically (news articles，textbooks, ancient historical accounts, etc.) unless we have some reason from the writing style to assume otherwise. It would be absurd If we could not do so.
I have lots of mixed feelings about these sort of reaction videos. On one hand, I think it's fascinating to hear how the two pairs are disagreeing. However, I tend to get discouraged and disillusioned with these sort of critique videos as well. Now that I've watched this reaction video as well as Tim and his wife's reaction, I keep noticing judgmental statements towards the other such as Morgan's "He has a lot of words," comment. Tim's wife tended to be judgmental with her body language as well. I just wish that we could have more intellectual humility and empathy for other people's views without expressing judgmental attitudes. I have a major weakness in this as well when discussing with people I disagree with, and I have a deep desire to continue to work on being more empathic and compassionate.
Completely agree with everything you said. But it’s worth pointing out that only on of these couples was able to acknowledge that their views are their own subjective interpretation of scripture, not objective truth. Paul could not acknowledge that other Christians could reasonably hold different interpretations of these translated texts written by other humans.
@@EMPeterson3Good point! If I understand you correctly, you are referring to Tim and Sarah acknowledging their subjective interpretation, correct? I think the most interesting part about these two couples interacting is just how differently they approach the Bible. You can tell that they just have different paradigms. I think Tim was trying to get Paul and Morgan to realize that the Bible is far, far more complicated than “Golden Tablets dropped from heaven” to quote the Bible Project, but Paul and Morgan view the Bible as something you can study isolated by itself. Sorry to make this comment longer, but I also think it was fascinating when Morgan said something to the extent of, “When you get to heaven, Gods going to ask how you got in his word, not what scholars you read,” this really came across like salvation is dependent on reading scripture… I could be wrong about this.
@@PaulandMorgandoes that mean you’re going to do it? Because if you don’t it just makes it look like you’re afraid to stand behind your views. Tim is a big boy, he can take it- can you?
I think its great that you're doing this series, visiting people with different perspectives. You should keep doing it... it has brought up so many great topics. My take from this is you think Tim can't be a Christian (or maybe not a good one? its all very vague) unless he has the same Bible interpretations/opinions as you do. Even if he is more researched on various topics. That is worrysome. What I find extremely annoying is you don't explain why. There's a few offhand Bible verses given, but they don't really seem to answer the question, or themselves are just your interpretation, or given out of context. So it's hard to work out why you dissagree or dismiss certain arguments, other than it just doesn't seem to fit with your own contextuql understanding. There's no depth or confidence that you know. Even some answers given don't seem to fit with classic evangelical theology. What a Christian is, for instance. I think overall I'm dissapointed with this response. I wish you had engaged more and given more depth & explanations to your answers, like Tim did.
Yo. What you don't get though is that the Old Testament stories and genealogies don't add up. A lot of it is hyperbolic and exaggeration. There are huge problems and when you go back to the early church fathers they interpreted passages spiritually, metaphorically, as well as literal in some places. But again you have to look at context, culture, and what group of people is being spoken to. There are many voices within the Bible. You don't see this because you have been indoctrinated and conditioned to think about the Bible in one way and explain away certain inconsistencies. For example, evangelicals teach against polygamy, but God speaks to David and tells him that if he didn't have enough wives, he would have given him more. What is helpful is to understand that the Israelites had a partial understanding of God and not the full revelation and it is their quest to wrestle with God and figure it out. The word Israel means to wrestle with God.
I just fell upon this video/ never heard either one but I need to be honest- your wife seems like she is mocking your guest- now I'm super curious to go find this video
I was once an atheist and something that was always terrifying to think about, for me, was the thought of dying and just nothing happening. Just like, not existing anymore. The response that atheists have is, “well that’s what it was like before you were born!” It just never comforted or satisfied me. It’s sad to hear a Christian say that hell shouldn’t be talked about and that its “mean” to talk about it. Jesus warns us about hell all throughout the gospels. All this to say, I am just so glad that Jesus pulled me out of the chaos, relativism, and confusion that I was in.
Many of the early church fathers believed that the fires of hell were to be understood as restorative and a kind of chastisement(the Greek of Matthew 25:46 uses the corrective “kolasis” instead of the retributive “timōria”) they believed scripture taught there would be a universal reconciliation at the end of time that eventually God would literally be All in All (1 Cor 15:28) So whether someone is saved or not, might ultimately not be a question of "if", but "when". “For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive" 1 Cor 15:22 Ask yourself: is Jesus the potential savior of the world? Or the "Actual" savior of the world? Does the love of Christ stop pursuing someone after death? Does death stop Jesus? Sadly many Christians today try to downplay or even hide the fact that this was a prevalent (some say dominant) view in the first 500 years of the church, before the Roman empire took over. Even the champion of eternal torment himself-St. Augustine wrote: “There are very many in our day who, though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments" "We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life." -Clement of Alexandria(150 to 215 A.D.)
@@taylourreed5560This atheist doesn’t, and I don’t know any atheists that are scared of death. It’s usually Christian’s who are concerned with death in my experience. It’s one of the main factors why they are Christians.
It's really important to worship God with our heart, soul, and mind. Don't forget the 'mind' part, friends. If we neglect that part, weak arguments can confuse us. Listen to some good Biblical scholars and your faith will deepen. 🌿🌿😊
Paul's nature is to analyse to gain perspective which is great to see because he is very serious about it; he consults Morgan for affirmation - that's humble. Their perspective revolves around each other tightly.
I have always appreciated commentators, linguistic scholars, and historians when I read the Bible. I have never considered that to be a "flag". I do always like to let the text speak to me first before I dig into commentaries - however - its always a challenge reading the text in English when so many words are interpreted from our cultural context rather than that of the original hearers. So to "just get into the Word" is tricky when we don't understand where the pitfalls may lie.
I do not believe that the gospel message is dependent on believing in Eternal Conscious Torment as defined by Dante. For the first three centuries the Church believed in one of three options - I personally believe that death is final and eternal after judgement. Fire destroys. One option is frankly not more "biblical" than another. We are saved for eternity NOW not later - the gospel call is not fire insurance - its a call to participate in the restoration of Creation not just to float bodyless in a nebulous heaven
I would be amazed if either Paul or Morgan spoke another language. I think bilingual or multilingual people understand more fully why relying on scholars is important because true interpretation can so easily be lost in translation, and that is more easily understood when you know more than one language. I would trust scholars who have studied Greek/Hebrew and cultural context more than myself when it comes to the Bible, not that your own reading isn’t important as well, but taking their opinions into account isn’t relying on false teaching. It’s humbling yourself and knowing that you don’t have all the answers.
I didn't watch the 24 hrs; I want to start by saying that. I would be considered a more left leaning Christian in Paul and Morgan's lense however , when they are talking about the conversation about eternity they had in the 24hr video I too had some pause. I've heard some Christians say they don't believe in a hell. I haven't heard Christians say they don't necessarily believe in a heaven or eternity with God. Paul and Morgan said in the video it was mentioned (not by them) that maybe after death we just cease to be and that confused me. If we are Christians on earth and don't believe we will be reunited with God in death then what are we believing in? Christians believe in the resurrection power of Jesus and how that filled the gap between humans (sin) and God for eternity. If an after life with God isn't real and/ or sure than I don't get what there is to believe in. Like what's the point of Jesus ? Who are we saying God is? What did God do and why does He do it? What's the point of it all? Does that make sense? Again I didn't watch the 24hr so maybe I just misunderstood the conversation. I know where I stand in this conversation I'm more asking other people their takes on that conversation. I say this all with love and kindness. I really just value other people's perspectives.
20:00 re whether Jesus was wrong - I'm not sure this does make Tim look so bad, because... Jesus is fully human, we don't ever seem to make space for that. What does it actually mean that he was fully human? Tim was making the point that he would be susceptible as a human bound in time and space to believe - as the culture in that time and space maybe did - that some of the old testament stories were myths *whether or not they were*. That doesn't make him any less Jesus.
Love you guys!! The way you guys unequivocally stand and live for Jesus is admirable and I stand and live for Him as well 🤍 I would be so lost and exhausted if I didn’t think the Bible was literal when it comes to salvation and eternity…Did you guys ask him when he was saved? Does he believe in Salvation and accepting that Christ is Lord while we’re here on Earth since he believes everyone being reconciled to Jesus is a possibility?
Thank you guys for standing firm !! It’s so hard for me to watch anyone promote abortion. I have 3 biological children, 1 adopted and 2 foster babies. I have had a family member make a comment about if abortion was legal here we wouldn’t have “this problem” ……. I want to be clear that these children are not a problem ! They are a blessing. I know people love to bring up a tragic case to try and justify it, that is not the normal. Majority of abortions are because someone made a bad choice. There is plenty of information about sex and lots of access to birth control and preventative options. Abortion should never be a birth control option.
If I’m being honest I watched the 24 hours with, then started watching this but moved over to their response because the way you described Sarah (while very graciously) peaked my attention. 30 mins watching their response was all I needed to draw my conclusion - that Sarah is the one belittling & dehumanizing others. No wonder Tim has it at the forefront of his channel that he doesn’t want to do that coz he knows what it feels like to hear that on a regular basis from her. I’m going to say this because there does not seem to be enough actual discernment in the comment section: Sarah gives serious narcissistic/Jezebel vibes. It would be VERY interesting to me if Tim began changing his views only after meeting/dating/marrying Sarah because traditionally these types of people pray on innocent believers who have genuine faith & prophetic giftings. While I don’t necessarily agree with everything, I think he gave evidence & challenged in a way that was respectful & came from a genuine attitude of love. The fact that y’all could not say whether or not Sarah was a Christian says it all. The fact that she seems to flip flop about her “faith” or lack there of says it too. The fact that she is sitting doing a reaction video when she didn’t actively participate in the discussion is really bizarre. Honestly I would have preferred just Tim do a reaction but it felt like Sarah needed to get the glory. I’m consistently shocked at the lack of discernment for this type of thing in the church. We need to start really understanding what is truly devisive & Sarah is doing it & there are way too many people out there playing cool about it. I’ll also add, that the fact that Tim would call and want to check in is so kind, except he wasn’t calling Sarah out on anything in their livestream & she’s a huge part of people’s opinions of y’all from their video. It’s giving he wants to expose it but doesn’t know how to. Pray for him & for his discernment to rise!
Admitting you don’t know something is honest. Searching for answers through biblical scholarship means you care enough to learn what you’re reading on a deeper level. Reading ancient texts with modern eyes and assuming you know the heart of it is actual foolishness. Certainty is not faith or trust, it’s the goal of the manipulator, the faithless. Look at the fruit of the spirit, the fruit of your theology and how it plays out in actual life.
Some stories are literal and some are figurative - Jesus would use the Hebrew texts regardless-and use them in his context - not in our post scholastic evangelical context. Tim never claimed Jesus was "wrong". He claims that Jesus used the stories to teach truth. Jonah is likely an exagerted story with reality behind it but probably not exactly the way we sang the song in Sunday School - there is so much more to the story though - beyond whether or not it is literal.
I just got to the end of this video and my opinion still stands. I still think Tim and especially Sarah are two-faced people because you can’t say “we don’t want to dehumanize people” and then turn around and go on things like Reddit and enjoy other people dehumanizing the people you dislike. *And dehumanizing the unborn child of the people you dislike* . You also can’t smile in peoples faces and then go talk crap about them afterwards like Sarah. To be honest Tim really isn’t my issue here I mean his beliefs are absolute garbage and I’d 100% tell him that to his face if I ever met him. But his wife Sarah is my issue I just don’t get along with women like her because she revels in drama and gossip and I’d also tell her that to her face as well but she already knows where I stand because we had a chat in the comments.
Why do you feel the need to ask such a silly question? Some people use laughter as an auditory expression. Some laugh more, some don't laugh much at all... Nothing wrong with her laughing, it makes her who she is! Like myself, I use laughter even in awkward, or serious situations.
As someone that laughs probably as much as Morgan does, I would say that it’s just a part of her personality. I love to laugh and I get that a lot of people view laughing as vindictive, but it’s honestly not for some people. Also, and I can’t speak for her, but for me I am a nervous laugher. It just perks me up when I am uncomfortable.
I hope your pregnancy is going smoothly, Morgan. I drank coffee while pregnant too. Just one cup per day though. Being pregnant is tiring, a little coffee is ok.
Stay strong dear P & M. I continue to be so encouraged to see younger saints such as you remaining faithful and showing such maturity in your faith. You are often in my prayers, including a safe labor and delivery of your next little family member.🙏🏽❤️
Love you two ! I have been here consistently for multiple years now because of ya'lls stance on the Bible being the reason you make life decisions. We need more people basing their lives on the Bible and studying it consistently letting the Holy Spirit speak 🙌 Thank you for what you do and are doing bringing light to other Christian influencers and stiving to bring unity 💜
Reading only what others say about Jesus and not having much of an interpersonal relationship with Him is like reading a reddit page or an article on someone and thinking you know about them. Can you get information that may or may not be correct? Yes. But there is no teacher like the Holy Spirit. READ the Bible. Makes me think of the Bible passage in Acts 19 where people tried to cast out demons "in the name of Jesus who Paul preaches"....and they were miserably ashamed. We can't know Jesus simply based on other people's knowledge of Him. We can learn from one another, but Jesus also reveals Himself to us. One question Tim asked however that did really have me thinking was how one decides if something was a primary or secondary issue. I wish there had been more conversation around that.
Yall were loving and respectful. Part of loving someone is being truthful to them. It might not be popular and it will hurt, but that doesnt make it not coming from a place of love. I couldnt wat h the whole video. I honestly was getting tired of his constant debate and doubletalk. When someone says the bible is not his authority on God, then one could say, that person is not a follower of God.
If Tim never goes directly as a Burean to study for himself, to measure them commentaries against the word of God, then how will he ever get truly convicted, comforted or transformed by the renewing of his mind. There’s a reason we are supposed to preach the gospel, it’s the gospel that pierces through! Tim would be a very powerful “fundamental” Christian lol, if he came back to direct relationship with Jesus, not through any other man, to have powerful prayer time, all knowledge is dead without an intimate relationship with God, so being well read etc is that holding him back? If I was Tim, I would wonder if the Lord is gonna say “I never knew you” many know Jesus name, use His name, demons believe, so I pray Jesus knows Tim, and not just Tim knowing Jesus, in Jesus name, amen 🙏
The Bible says nothing about eternal torment. It does speak about consequences that last for eternity, i.e. eternal and final separation from God. "The smoke of their torment ascending forever" doesn't mean they are suffering forever. On the other hand, the Bible says nothing about everyone going to Heaven. That is complete heresy.
