Hey guys, very curious to hear your honest takeaways from this episode. What stood out to you? Leave a comment! Support the project on Patreon!❤️ www.patreon.com/paulandmorganshow
@@sethmiller8984 I know Christians can be progressive Tim is doing exactly what the bible said Homosexuals did not just appear they have been around a long time. God can see inside of us all he loves them too as they are they are not ungodly.
I'm only about halfway through but listening to him talk about the "scholars" the verses that come to mind is Matthew 18:3-4 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 1 Corinthian 3:19
Did Morgan literally say “that’s on you if you had sex with man that doesn’t pull out”?!? I listened back multiple times because I wanted to be wrong but that really is what she said… I have no words. How about blaming the man for committing sexual assault?
I have to say, respectfully, the more I listen the more Im struck by how insular and hive minded fundamentalist evangelicalism is. I dont say this as an "exvangelical" either. I identify as a somewhat moderately conservative christian. But for Paul and Morgan to say "if genesis isnt literally then how can you believe in the gospel accounts?" one really has to question the kindve spiritual formation one recieves in those evangelical environments. It seems to me that there is alot of conservative american modernity happening and precious little education on how to handle historical texts carefully and have nuance in our readings. I mean even conservative scholars i know like WLC, Josh Swamidass and others have no problems entertaining that Genesis is mytho-poetic. Which goes to show how educationally anaemic these fundamentalist environments are. I dont say this in a nasty way. Its just really concerning how unwilling to consider other views one can be when they buy wholesale into biblical literalism which is a relatively new way of exegeting scripture. Church Fathers like Augustine, Origen, Gregory of Nyssa etc all negotiated the text in ways that Paul and Morgan would anachronistically call progressive. Which shows how important education is needed in thr Church.
Solid job for meeting with Tim! I am a part of that data he was talking about. I struggled with suicidal ideation as an evangelical Christian. De-construction and coming out saved my life. I’ve been free from medications and graduated therapy 3 years ago. So thankful for voices like Tim. They save lives.
What causes your suicidal ideation? Have you heard of spiritual warfare? I often experience it and it can show itself as if it's a mental health problem. The Bible likes to try to make believers suicidal so they will end their lives and not make a difference in the world
As someone who is not a progressive Christian and probably has more similar beliefs to Paul and Morgan than Tim, it's wild how often they appear more like Pharisees in these conversations concerned with following legalism and their guests are more focused on loving others and living out teachings Jesus actually emphasized more like caring for the poor and marginalized. Of course repentance is something Jesus touches on and calls people to a LOT, but it's not all he talked about. Interesting conversations for sure! But I wish Paul would be more open when pressed on his beliefs instead of just deflecting with another question.
Agree. It’s really kind of bizarre. I lean pretty conservative but even given that, it’s so important to hold space for people and their individual experiences and I sometimes feel like Paul and Morgan are so focused on the law and upholding their own interpretation(s) of it that they can’t allow themselves to really take in the perspectives of other people.
I'm here as a follower and fan of TNE and a Progressive Christian. Paul and Morgan, thank you for doing this video! We need more dialogue, and far too often, Progressive Christian are ousted as false teachers and heretics without being listened to. I appreciate this effort to build bridges. I also want to acknowledge some areas where I felt this effort fell short of this goal. This video showed me two concerning features of Paul's views and the views of Conservative Evangelical Christianity as a whole. One, Paul's primary metric for understanding what makes a true Christian seems to build down to "who are you willing to condemn." There was such an emphasis on drawing borders to make sure the "wrong people" don't get let in. It's very much the opposite of Jesus' parable of the wedding feast. I would also encourage looking into the difference between "Center-Set" and "Bounded-Set" groups. Tim is advocating for a Center-Set vision of Christianity, one where Christianity is determined by the center, the person and way of Jesus, and the group is determined by movement towards the center. Paul is advocating a Bounded-Set Christianity, one where there are clear boundaries drawn for knowing who is in and who is out (inerrancy, gay marriage, abortion, etc…). Two, he holds his bias so close that it has become invisible. He assumes that his reading of the Bible is the truest, most historical, most orthodox way of reading the Bible. In and of itself, this is completely understandable. Where he errs is that he assumes anyone with a different reading is automatically outside of his already ideal understanding, and so they are most likely a false teacher. Since he holds this so tightly, he approaches the Bible expected to find his theology and interpretative framework validated, so it makes perfect sense that he reads the texts in a way that causes his views to appear obvious. He is unaware of even just how much he already depends on the scholarship and interpretation of others to inform his own interpretation. I don’t believe Paul can read Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic, or any other ancient Biblical language. Every engagement he has ever had with the Bible has already gone through the filter of scholarship. The scholarship that upholds his views has become invisible to him, since his views are “just what the text says.” Any scholarship that pushes against those views, even if they are more faithful to the text itself, are seen with skepticism and wariness. This inadvertently creates a view where ultimate authority is actually found in Paul’s interpretative framework and theological tradition, not in the Bible itself.
Hello! I consider myself a conservative Christian and I’d like to address your first point. I’m not super familiar with Paul overall, but speaking more generally about fundamentalist Christianity it’s not as much defined by who we do/don’t condemn. That issue comes up a lot in discussions like these because it’s a key difference between conservative/progressive Christianity. I personally believe (and to my knowledge this represents conservative Christianity as a whole) that every person is born inherently sinful, in a state of separation from God, with a natural tendency to continue in sin. I also believe that much of what is affirmed by progressive Christianity (homosexuality, abortion, etc) is sinful and outside of God’s design for us. However, this sin is no better/worse than any other sin, and does not in any way disqualify a person from the grace of God. The real issue is that each individual seeking a life led by Christ must open their heart to him and be willing for him to transform any and all areas of their lives. I think truly if conservative Christianity is a bounded-set faith, the set that is “out” consists of anyone who has not given their life wholly and completely to Christ. Opening your heart to him also includes allowing him to govern your sexuality, and I don’t know a single Christian (heterosexual or otherwise) that didn’t need some sort of growth in this area. The issue is not necessarily that a given person is homosexual specifically, but that they refuse to submit that area of their life to God’s sovereignty and direction. Anyway I hope this response finds you well, and I hope I didn’t come across as rude or condemning in any way. I pray that the Lord would continue to do his work in your heart day by day and that you would continually grow to be more and more like him, just as I myself hope to do
Ah, YT, my long reply, gone. Pfui. Anyway, thank you, great-grandfather, for declaring that "My daughters are not sinful" and walking out on church when being preached at about original sin. And, as Mickey also pointed out, this video made it clearer than ever that Paul doesn't have any scholarship at all. Surely there's a little local Bible college near him he could take a course or two at, just to understand a little of what the conversation is outside his sect. Tim was refreshing and inspiring. Acknowledging that one does not have all the answers is an aspect of the humility truly engaging with spiritual matters needs.
As a pro-life conservative leaning Christian myself, I am actually all for more sexual education, especially regarding contraception. Sex is definitely NOT something being talked about in Christian homes, yet they don’t want schools talking about it either…that never made sense to me. Christian parents are so afraid that educating their kids about contraception is encouraging them to have premarital sex, but the opposite proves to be true in most cases. I can’t tell you how many Christian parents have a daughter who got pregnant out of wedlock and they are dumbfounded and wonder how or why…it’s obvious. You didn’t do your job as a parent and educate them on how to prevent it. You don’t have to condone premarital sex at all, but you can teach them how to prevent pregnancy from occurring.
i think its sad that despite the stated goal of this series being unity amongst christians, paul couldnt even admit that tim is a christian. despite tim doing this for him and morgan
I don't really know if tim is a christian...I mean only God knows. but based on the fact that he doesn't believe that confession of sins and repentance, and faith in Jesus' burial and ressurection, is necessary for salvation and eternal life, I just don't know. only God knows the heart.
@@kierranoellemusic say what? Tim affirmed MULTIPLE times that he believes in everything in the creeds of the early church. You are spreading falsehood here and ought to repent. We believe in one God, the Father, the almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.
@@kierranoellemusic i mean you can believe whatever you want, i just dont understand inviting someone to an interview specifically for christians despite not believing they are one
@@Lara-wb5tl oh I see what youre saying. I suppose he identifies as a christian online, and it's important to see how two people can completely disagree, but still respect each other.
I'm working on a Masters in theology, and I have to agree with Tim when he says most academics believe that the Flood narratives in the bible are part of Jewish mythology. That's true in the academic world. And it's not a bad thing to recognize the legendary qualities of the stories, the artistry of the biblical authors and editors. Mythology conveys Truth for truth sake. and in a modern world that's largely interested in only Fact for fact sake, the search for truth sounds wishywashy, so people have tried to turn the bible into a textbook, something that it Is Not. Biblical literacy should absolutely consider the genres, the symbolism, the use of rhetoric and parables etc. We need to understand the Genesis creation epics are poetry, not science. (in a time when people blew their breath into idols to inspirit them, the genesis creation poem says it doesnt work like that, God picks up the very dust and blows His breath into You to make You!). Reading the Biblical texts literarily, as the early church fathers etc. did, as they were written, is biblical literacy. Reading them for their literal content only is a skewed, limited, short-sighted way to read the texts. Why wouldn't we want to honor the authors of the biblical texts by understanding their context, genre, symbolism etc?
I want to ask Paul and Morgan this: How do they think the Bible came about in the first place? Yes, it was written down by many different people, but who decided that these people's writings specifically are God-breathed? How do we know that maybe one of them or several of them were not charlatans who just pretended to write from God, or maybe they were channeling demons instead of being inspired by the Holy Spirit? And who decided which books would make it into the Protestant or Catholic Bible canon respectively? And then, who gave these people the authority to make these decisions? Why do Paul and Morgan put your faith in these people?
@@mer-ced-es Good questions. The early Christian writings, the church fathers etc. tend to speak about the biblical texts as if the inspiration happened primarily during the Reading of the texts. The ancient readers/hearers knew the texts were written by people who were collecting the stories and the truths and wisdom passed down over generations. They didn't have this strange "it was downloaded directly from God, as if the writers didn't even really know what they were writing" kind of thinking about the texts. They very much prized and respected the writings as a history of the stories, parables, allegories, truths etc. As for who decided on which books for which bibles, the groups themselves decided. we have about 8 canons in the world today, I think... The Catholics decided on the Catholic canon. THe Protestants on the Protestant canon. The Coptics on the Coptic canon (that's a big one.) I think it's important to realize that "God-breathed" in ancient times was probably quite different from "God breathed" for a modern. We look for Facts, proofs, logic., what to think They looked for Truth, wisdom, inspiration, how to live. They saw people as God-breathed (Yah-weh is the sound of breath in and out, Yahweh breathed us into existence) and people are in no way Perfect. Today, we want dependable facts, so we try to make the Bible into a textbook. That's a no-go, and we will lose the wisdom and truth contained there int he meantime if we can only read literally and not literarily.
@@KM-ez7pd It would make sense that a large flood of some sort happened and people responded by seeing God as the instigator and wrote about it in the biblical texts.I don't think you have to say "absolutely everything IS literal" or "everything IS fake" in order to say that some history is involved in the biblical texts, some of that history has taken on legendary proportions in the text itself. It's like Daniel Boone or Billy the Kid... they may have been real people, but that doesn't mean every single story passed down is absolute fact. And when we specifically read for the sole purpose of gleaning facts, history, or science, we miss the wisdom, symbolism, depth of meaning the authors were going for. So was there a flood? Of some sort, probably. Was it absolutely worldwide? probably not, but that's not the point of the story. The point if the story is not the facts, its carried in the message of the story, and the symbolism in that story, when you research it, is pretty deep.
Exactly! Something doesn't need to be physically materialised in order to have meaning and impact... I suppose some people can't comprehend the abstract world and its meaning...😅
Yeah I was raised Catholic and we’re taught the 7 days to create the earth is a metaphor for the Big Bang. So do Paul and Morgan think all Catholics are not real Christian’s
What stood out to me was how many times Paul used the word ‘clearly’ when describing what the scriptures teach, especially regarding subjects in which the scriptures are anything but clear. Paul is on guard against false teachers, but would do well to expand his exposure to other points of view, before deciding who the false teachers are. The scriptures seem ‘clear’ to him, because he appears to read them through the presuppositions of the theological system that he has inherited, without being aware that he brings this inherited grid with him when he reads and interprets the Bible. How does Paul know that the teachers that have handed him the grid through which he understands both the Bible and Christianity aren’t the false teachers? The only way to know is to charitably read other perspectives, and ask the Holy Spirit to grant discernment. Paul and Morgan strike me as Christians whose hearts are in the right place, and I appreciate their willingness to engage with folks like Tim. I hope through the process they can come to see that what they hold as the ‘clear’ teaching of Scripture is really only the Scriptures read through the particular lens they have been handed. The best example of this in the video is the discussion about hell, when Paul seems to assume from the outset that folks who don’t accept eternal conscious torment just haven’t taken the Bible itself as seriously as he has. This is pure nonsense. As one example, Jersak’s ‘Her Gates Will Never be Shut’ is packed with Scripture, cover to cover. Gregory of Nyssa was the final editor of the Nicene Creed, and was an overt universalist. He knew and loved the Scriptures, and helped give us our understanding of the Trinity, for Pete’s sake, yet it seems Paul would have difficulty calling him a real Christian. I hope Paul will humbly broaden his reading and come to realize that the Christian tent is very wide, broad, and ancient, and that the modern evangelical perspective is a relatively recent arrival on the scene and takes up a small corner of that tent. Peace and love.
Agreed. The use of "clearly" also begs the question, what do Paul and Morgan think of people who don't agree with what is "clear". Do they think people like Tim and others who disagree are just stupid? Are they liars? If they are liars and do clearly know the truth, why are they lying? Is it because they are evil? If you know the truth and are trying to tell people about this thing that is clearly not true, then you must be trying to get people to sin. That's a wild accusation against someone who says that they are trying to follow the teachings of Christ.
@kevink5866 well said. It was frustrating to me how close is Paul comes at one point, acknowledging Tim's understanding of the biblical scholarship but admitting himself that he wishes certain words we translate as "Hell" were clearer or more consistent. But he cannot move from that basic admission to acknowledging orthodox Christians of devout faith and goodwill down through history did honestly disagree on how to interpret those words. We probably would not even have the creeds most associated with the word Orthodoxy if some of these Holy Mothers and Fathers of the Church were labeled heretics with the ease with which Paul and others engage with Tim today.
@@user-st9pd6ux5i OK, let’s go with the idea that the Bible is clear. What’s the Bible teach about how to do baptism? That’s the central initiation rite of the church, part of Jesus’s great commission, so if the Bible’s clear about anything it should be that. Oh wait…Protestant Christians used to kill each other for understanding this differently. Alright then, let’s take the other central sacrament, communion, practiced from the beginning of the church; surely the Bible is clear about what that means if it’s clear about anything. Oh wait. OK, that’s mysterious mystical stuff, of course it’s confusing. But moral stuff is perfectly clear. Like lying, we all know it’s wrong to lie. Oh wait, the Scriptures praise Rahab for lying to save the Israelites she was hiding. Hmmm, I thought that would be an easy one. Maybe lying is Ok, sometimes? Just saying ‘the Bible is clear’ is an almost meaningless statement. The topics it touches, and the ways in which it touches those topics (poetry, narrative, letters, history, fiction, etc) makes it too complicated for overly simple statements like ‘The Bible is clear.’ I think God intended it that way, because He is trying to grow us into wisdom, and wrestling with the Scriptures is part of that process. Treating the Bible like a rulebook, when it’s not, is a gigantic mistake that can lead to much harm. This doesn’t mean the Bible offers no guidance on how to live. But to pretend it’s something it was never intended to be isn’t pious, it’s folly. And maybe even dishonest. Just my two cents.
I'm grad I skimmed the comments because I encountered this one. I was bothered by how many times Tim used the word 'negotiate' or 'renegotiate' as if we get to argue with God about what He means. To be sure, we can be mistaken, wrong, even wrong-headed in our interpretation, but God does not change. But with this comment I also noticed the 'clearly', by which Paul means the current standard interpretation. It may yet be clarified with a better understanding of language, culture in which it was written, and context of who God 'clearly' :D intends us to be as we mature in Christ.
I don't know for sure if I'll catch it in time for the live chat, because I fear it may elevate my anxiety to watch the live chat. I have experienced folks in this community being somewhat harmful to me and others. That being said, I am excited to watch this, and I do appreciate you choosing to spend your time with The New Evangelicals. He, along with Semler, Andre Henry, the folks from The Bible For Normal People, Nadia Bolz-Weber, and the late Rachel Held Evans--those are the Christians I am most like ideologically. I appreciate you coming at this with curiosity. I highly dislike (sometimes even despise) some of the things you stand for, but I wish you well and I am glad you are allowing your followers to be exposed to some of these ideas. They deserve to be grappled with. I still wish you would interact with a (consenting) queer and affirming Christian on this series. But it's your channel.
Did Morgan really just say why would a woman have sex with a man that doesn’t listen to you and pull out?!? Does she realize that’s called assault. This is why sex education is needed! Why on earth would she just victim blame a woman being assaulted??
It’s so interesting to me that one of the huge differences between these two men is that Paul needs to go back and say “so you believe this exactly” and Tim consistently says “this is what I believe based on what we know, etc.” not that either view can’t be argued against for many reasons, but I find myself progressive because if we KNOW everything are there are no questions, then we can’t call it “faith”
@@SaltAndGracePoetrylol like literally just listen to what he’s saying bro. Just bc it doesn’t line up with how you view the Bible doesn’t mean he’s arguing against the Bible
I'm so confused as to why you can't believe that Jesus was referring to a story that the people around him would understand? To refer to the moral lesson in the story vs. affirming the literal truth of that story. Even Tim Keller said Jonah is metaphorical/non-literal...
The amnesic understanding of church history in many of these spaces is such a problem. Believing that the true gospel only arose with Luther, Calvin or one of their more recent preferred Dispensationalists. Many aren't even aware that leading Jewish voices like Philo of Alexandria were already steeped in allegorical understandings of much of the Jewish mythology prior to the birth of Jesus, and that they were rapidly deployed by some of the most key Church Fathers as presumed operating procedures for anyone wanting to be taken seriously by their contemporaries.
First, Paul I was impressed with how you did not argue back! I think Paul you did an excellent job defending your beliefs and the faith with clear scriptures with great self control and patience. Well done! But, let us clear up what the scriptures say about who is a Christian(How to be saved) One must be born again, believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. There are many other scriptures that talk about salvation too. When one is truly saved or born again you become a new creation in Christ Jesus! Ezekiel 36:26 says I will give you a new heart to replace your stony heart with a heart of flesh, and I will put my spirit in you(the one that raised Christ from the dead). And then the most important scripture is to Love the Lord with all your heart, soul,mind and strength. And the book of Romans talks about how they knew God but did not Glorify him! Drawing near to God through giving Him Thanks and Praise! Is so important! Blessings!
58:40 Tim articulated here so well something i never was able to for myself. When i started deconstructing, i had to take a break from Bible reading and prayer. I couldn't explain to myself why, i just knew i had to. Tim here explains that when he started deconstructing he realized he wasn't sure how to tell the difference between the voice of God and his own inner voice, as some things he previously had been sure was God's voice didn't really make sense anymore. I am realizing that was also a huge factor for me in why i ultimately had to step back and get some distance/perspective.
Same. And also I didn't know how to read the Bible without the lens I had been taught. I wanted to come at it with fresh eyes but I needed some distance first.
He said he's open to that as a possibility. But his point was more that Jesus was living in a particular cultural and religious background, and whatever He personally knew to be the truth He engaged people through that common background. Even if Jesus knew it to be shared myth, that doesn't mean Jesus was lying or in error. He would have been simply participating in that particular culture and sharing God's character in ways those people could understand.
For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine and accurate instruction [that challenges them with God’s truth]; but wanting to have their ears tickled [with something pleasing], they will accumulate for themselves [many] teachers [one after another, chosen] to satisfy their own desires and to support the errors they hold,
I dont ever see paul telling the guests "oh I see where you're coming from" " I get why you would believe that" etc. idk, something is off, I see a lot of defense mechanisms in Paul and I think it's because yall are too focused on "Is that person a REAL christian or not?" At one point you have to accept that your interpretation of the Bible isn't THE interpretation. Unless you are willing to acknowledge that the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle I don't think these episodes will have any positive impact on you (P&M)
I LOVE Tim and TNE! They’ve been such a safe and welcoming community and resource in my journey of faith evaluation. I know many people on this platform will not agree with me or Tim, but one thing I would suggest is to listen with a humble heart and open mind to learn, be challenged, and possibly be willing to change what might be necessary. Thank you Paul & Morgan for allowing a different voice to be heard. 🙏🏼
I’ve experienced this too. Know that you’re not alone on this journey. I know it can be hard and lonely to be on a journey of faith evaluation but it’s good and healthy and wherever you land on the other side, it will be okay
Props to you, Paul and Morgan for having this conversation. I used to believe many of the things you claim to, so I have compassion for where you are even though I am closer to Tim's positions and frame of mind now. But I'm encouraged that you were willing to engage with Tim on these topics and discuss differences and similarities in your beliefs.
@@PaulandMorganis there a reason that y’all only reply to favorable comments? It’s kind of the antithesis of the proclaimed aim of this series. Are you afraid to debate people who think differently than you? It certainly seems that way- not only through your apparent fear of engaging with people who push back on you in the comments, but also through your reluctance to view anything outside of the scope of your narrow worldview. If you’re not willing to think outside the tiny box you feel comfortable in, then what is the point of this series?
@@Ajs0412To be fair, I strongly disagree with Paul & Morgan’s side but even I don’t blame avoiding engaging in negative comments as most content creators do, especially since they have a higher ratio of hate watchers. Even if OOP is engaging in good faith, lot of people from the same side gang up, pile on and dilute the conservation by insults and aggressiveness which makes most people overwhelmed and tune out. Them having in person discussions with Church Chad and TNE is more productive and effective.
@@hanatemonstas4485 the whole point of this “project” is supposed to be unity amongst Christians- haven’t seen anything but self righteousness towards their subjects
I’m interested to know how Progressive ‘Christianity’ is at all in line with the gospel. The teachings of Progressive ‘Christians’ are blatantly heretical and unbiblical and are a sinful distortion of God’s truth
Very interesting conversation. I don't think many conservatives understand just how much studying those of us who have deconstructed have actually done. We've done a LOT. To Tim's point on the published books about hell (ie Brad Jersak's "Her Gates will Never be Shut") and Paul's note about diving deep into scripture ... Paul, if you crack that book open you'll be flooded with Biblical scholarship and Biblical history just as a start. If it's scripture you want, it's scripture you'll get.
If you crack open the bible for yourself and rely on the scriptures to teach you, you’ll be flooded with the truth. If it’s The Word you want, it’s The Word you’ll get. “The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.” Psalm 119:130
I apologize, that’s not what I meant, sir. I mean no disrespect. I meant “you” as in people in general. I meant “you” in plural. If we all open the bible and study it and seek the truth we’ll find it. I apologize, I didn’t make that clear enough. I wasn’t assuming you don’t read the Bible. Sorry about that.
@@esimmons2018 Ah thank you for that. I'm too used to people not truly engaging. I appreciate that. A little more light ... I've extensively studied the Bible since I was a small child, then came 2 classes short of Religion major while at college. I've been a church leader, including an elder, and sat on boards of religious organizations and churches. It was that experience in leadership that prompted my journey into deconstruction.
@@curioduo75 Wow that’s great, I admire your dedication. May I ask what exactly you mean by deconstruction? I’ve heard people say that and mean different things so I’m wondering what you mean 😊
I'm not quite sure why Paul's opinion about anybody being a Christian or not matters? But more than that, if I was asking someone's opinion, I'm positive that I would be more influenced by someone who is clearly well-educated on the topic and has done extensive research (Tim) vs someone who it seems maybe hasn't even read the whole thing through yet (unless Paul meant he is RE-reading the NT). But overall, I think that you both (P&M) have missed the point that your judgment is totally irrelevant, unneeded, and unnecessary, per Jesus's teachings (I say as a Jewish person who has studied religion).
Dont' you just love Peter and John. They had no education. Were fisherman, BUT THEY WERE KNOWN AS MEN WHO SPENT TIME WITH GOD, instead of this junk you are listening to.
12:58 yes! Exactly what I believe. As a Christian I feel like I am focused on “how can I be more like Christ, how can I love others more like Christ”. Followers of Christ should not be “me” focused. It’s about loving others and reaching out to the marginalized, the needy, the sick etc. it’s crazy to me how many people who proclaim that they are Christians do not follow what Jesus has taught.
Followers of Jesus Christ are commanded to speak TRUTH which will save a person, so why are all you listeners not out on the streets speaking to the drag queens and sexual perverts and drug addicts, and transgenders, calling in love to repentance. Remember what the Bible says...their blood will be on your hands if you do not speak the truth, just do it in love.
31:23 paul admits he hasn’t looked in to it, but still is going to tell Tim he’s wrong. I know cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing from experience, but watching it…
@@foodforthought8308 I've found through studying church history that Christianity is wider than I previously thought. I'd recommend you read church history, I think you'll be surprised at the multiplicity!
@foodforthought8308 it's so hard to consider Paul an expert on fundamental Christianity when he fails on every level as a father and provider for his family.
Tim pointed to a very interesting fact which is that P&M are willing to take some verses literaly while others not. What is it based on? How do u decide what is meant to be taken literaly and what isn't?
Some are obviously not literal, like Jesus saying " I am the vine, you are the branches" obviously he is not an actual vine and we aren't actually a branche. Its a metaphor, if you study the bible its usually very clear.
It's a cultural thing. Lots of beliefs in modern evangelicalism stem from interpretations based on English translations that are passed down over the years. Like how a good portion of the Pentateuch and the rest of the Tanakh were always taken as poetic, not literal. But when it was translated into English, Englishmen felt the need for literalism to justify their divine right to rule. It's all very bizarre, but it's been kept because despite what many evangelicals will tell you about Sola Scriptura, everyone is a slave to their traditions.
Yeah it's so weird to me. As a Christian, I've also always disliked the overreach. Our Christian churches are not forced to affirm same sex marriages, only the churches that choose to. Christianity to me was never about forcing our beliefs down the throats of others, especially through the State.
I really enjoyed this conversation! I definitely agree with Tim’s views on Christianity, LGBTQ issues, abortion, etc., but appreciated the way Paul and Morgan respectfully listened to Tim’s views and also Tim’s calm response to their criticisms. Thanks for sharing!
Tim is more knowledgeable on the Bible than I thought he was. He's definitely much closer to old evangelicals if you will than I ever gave him credit for.
@@DaughterOfChrist1997Not REALLY. That's very very similar to the early church father's stances on Christ's existence. Just remember that this is a religion that has been processed and conditioned around 2000 years. The early church believed things that we would likely find heretical, and vise versa. The requirements to be doctrinally sound as a Christian is a moving target, and every denomination has slightly different criteria.
After this, I'd love to see a 24 hours with Lila Rose. If we're looking at what it means to be a Christian, a catholic is a great part to have a discussion with. Especially as Lila seems to hold to a lot more of the traditional views than Tim does, and yet there's some alarming doctrines in the catholic church. I'd love to hear where she stands on the gospel. I'd also love to hear an interview with someone more reformed than you guys, that could hold to teaching some might see as "legalistic" which would be the other extreme of debating what's essential and what isn't in the Christian faith. A very political Christian like Sean Feachut would be facinating, and maybe looking at someone from the hyper grace and lordship salvation camps addressing how to present the gospel to people. Finally, debating someone who's really, really into the Prophetic to hear another side than some of your concerns on the hyper charismatic church could be really helpful and edifying 😊
I would love to see Lila Rose on this series. And a more reformed person would be a really interesting conversation as well, but I don't know who I would want to see for that one.
What Paul doesn't understand, without actually speaking to and LISTENING to queer people, is that orientation is no more a choice for them than it was for him and that queer people can no more change their orientation than he could. Paul also needs to understand that it's about much more than sex. Two men can be as in love with and devoted to each other as a man and woman. That love is real, it's not a delusion--unless he wants to call us all liars. Sex is the natural physical manifestation of that love, just as it would be for him and his wife. So his "warnings" always feel like absolute condemnations to Hell or permanent loneliness. So could that cause existential anxiety, feelings of worthlessness, depression, suicidal ideation? Of course it does. Is he being kind? Of course he isn't, especially if he won't even listen to current Biblical scholarship on this issue.
Whether you have sex or not is a choice. We don’t choose to have sinful desires. We just do have them. And we are supposed to not give in to them. As for scholarship, all good and honest scholarship would say that gay sex is biblically wrong. Just because you don’t have a romantic partner it doesn’t mean you’re going to be eternally lonely. Many people in loving relationships with their spouse will still feel lonely, as loneliness is just a feeling. And love is defined by God. It’s not loving to another person to sin with them and pull them into sin
Two men or two women being together is not love it is lust. It is unnatural, two men cannot have children naturally together and two women cannot have children naturally together. Only a man and woman can have children naturally which is why God says man shall not lay with man kind as he would with woman kind because it is unnatural and not what he intended when he made us but the devil came into the mix and continuously tries to destroy and corrupt what God created.
I think a lot of times conservative Christians don’t like to agree that a person can be “born gay” because they see it as some sort of concession to progressivism. I don’t see how admitting that weakens the conservative view at all though (speaking as a conservative myself). Each person is born in a natural state of sin, and the the tendency toward particular sins varies from person to person. I’d like to challenge you with this: is it really that bad to live a life of singleness? Paul (the one in the Bible, not this guy lol) writes in 1 Cor 7:6-9 that it is better for a person to remain single if they can manage it. As someone who has always desired marriage (and is currently engaged), I’ve spent my fair share of time struggling with this passage, but now believe it to be true. Our culture puts a lot of pressure on us to have a romantic relationship in our lives, but how much better could we each serve Christ as a single person, without investing so much of our time and energy into a spouse! This being said, of course I also believe that marriage is a wonderful gift from God and that he included marriage in his perfect plan for my own life. Curious what your thoughts are!
@@thequagnard7811 I don't understand the logic behind believing that gay people are not born gay when we know that intersex people exist. If people can be born and not fit in a gender binary perfectly at birth, isn't it possible that people can be born gay?
I think you really need to study the lives and beliefs of the actual Saints. St. Therese of Liseaux, St. Ireneaus, St. Augustine to name a few. They would not for a second have considered Tim's views to be compatible with the Christian Tradition
@@foodforthought8308 Who cares? Your argument (if you can call it that) is a logical fallacy called "argument from authority." And who gets to call them saints? A flawed, oppressive and harmful institution called "the church?" What a legacy to rely on... SMDH
I would say that is a lack of true passion for lost souls. There are so many lost souls on this site, turning away from Truth in the last days...a sign of the Truth of The Bible which says that people will become haters of truth lovers of sin and evil. So sad. Jesus Christ deserves a whole lot better than what these people are living.
@@mooka4515 I am not a christian and not posting as a christian. Also, I am not catholic and posting as a catholic. I simply said passion for lost souls should be in all of us.
“If your theology is causing harm to people, we have to rethink the theology.” It’s easy to argue against being queer when you haven’t personally experienced those feelings. I have, and it took an attempt on my own life for me to realize if my beliefs didn’t change, I wasn’t going to live much longer. Four years later (post deconstruction), I’ve published two books, done incredible art, and I am thrilled to be alive. If I still thought like Paul and Morgan, none of that would be true. I would be another statistic. Another casualty of weaponized religion. I don’t think this is something they truly understand. If they did, I think they’d be more compassionate towards people like me and less worried about being right.
30:15 it seems Paul won’t let Tim finish a question before he deflects with another one. It feels very much like the “gotcha” questions that are taught in fundamentalist circles like the way of the master. And it’s interesting that there are people here in the comments saying Tim doesn’t study the Bible because in this section alone he is sharing a lot of what he’s studied.
From what I got from the video, He (Tim) said in the video that he doesn’t spend time with God in prayer or bible study, mostly just listens to people in the world of biblical scholarship and what they are thinking about the scriptures. This way of approaching scripture can be very misleading as not every “biblical scholar” is true to what the scriptures actually are saying. So we should all especially as followers of Christ, study the scriptures ourselves rather than taking what others say about it as the truth. Even if they are “biblical scholars.” You only know if what someone is saying about the bible is true, if you study it for yourself. For most of my upbringing I believed a lot of what Tim believes because it’s what I was being told about scripture. Then I read scripture for myself and came to very different conclusions.
@@esimmons2018 I need to ask a clarifying question. It sounds like you’re assuming that Tim does not do the work of researching who he is learning from so assume that he is listening to unsound scholars. Is that what you are saying? I heard him say that in this season of life he is focusing on learning from those wiser and more educated. I’m 47 and lived and worked in conservative evangelical up until a couple years ago, and the idea that people can open the Bible and understand it fully without educating themselves on the culture, language, and what is prescriptive vs what is descriptive has always come across as prideful. Although applicable, The Bible was not written to modern day Americans and when we view it through our cultural lens we will not understand the message it was written to convey. So for example you have people elevating and reading poems (Psalms) the exact same way as they read the words of Jesus. Or reading where Paul is quoting Roman household codes then flipping them on their head to explain that Christ did away with hierarchy and as Christians we are to live differently. Not to mention the role that Hebrew elements of literature like chiasm influence how the text would have been understood by the intended audience. So what I heard Tim say, which I think is wise, is that in this phase of his life he is learning from those who are more educated and wise than him, which something the sacred text encourages us to do. Listening to Tim, he knows the Bible and has taken the time to educate himself, which includes the humility of acknowledging the importance of learning from those who know more than he does.
@@esimmons2018He said that he is currently not reading the bible as much as he is biblical scholars. However, based on his knowledge of the bible and his background I think it’s safe to say that he knows it backwards and forwards.
@@daneesledge1626 Okay, so to clarify, i do not know how Tim goes about researching who he learns from about scripture, though there is room for concern given his stance on different topics that are very clear in scripture. I agree, there are descriptive and prescriptive language throughout scripture- but they are not hard to understand when you read each chapter in it’s full context from beginning to end. I think almost anyone (of course children will need help) can open the biblical texts and have a rather good understanding of it if they read it correctly (Each book/chapter in its context, from beginning to end.) However yes, there are areas of scripture that are more difficult to understand or come to conclusions, but there shouldn’t be much or really any debate on the sections of scripture that are very clear. And I would say majority of scripture is very clear and not hard to follow/comprehend. And there’s nothing wrong with seeking outside help in order to further understand scripture, however we should be discerning and look to scripture to clarify if those teachings are correct. Doing so, If we find that people are teaching the scriptures wrongly/not staying true to the clear cut teachings then we shouldn’t trust them. We should always be on guard and look to scripture for ourselves is all I’m saying. “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” 2 Timothy 3:16 “The unfolding of your words gives light; it imparts understanding to the simple.” Psalm 119:130
@@arielrodriguez968 Maybe, but if you look at scripture you cannot deny certain teachings, as he does in this video. He may seem to be well versed in the scriptures, but he says one thing while the scriptures say another. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to be a little skeptical of his education of the scriptures. Not to say his entire understanding is skewed or anything, just some of the things he talked about in the video. I can see he is a smart guy, there’s just some things that don’t make sense given what he says vs what scripture says.
Curious what you see as the danger in just being respectful to someone by using the name and pronouns they want you to use? Cis folks go by different names all the time.
@@somethinggood9267So instead of answering someone’s question you have to throw in a what aboutism. I truly don’t understand why it’s such a hard concept for Christian’s to demonstrate respect for other people. Not everyone believes in your God or in your specific interpretation of the Bible, and that’s okay.
The danger lies in giving in to compelled speech and allowing a movement to turn commonly agreed upon meanings upside down without any discussion. That way authoritarianism lies. One quick example: I object to being called cis. You don't care. Yet I'm expected to use pronouns that are sometimes completely nonsensical and if I don't I'll be called a bigot. I'm clearly not the problem in this scenario. Also re names: false equivalence.
19:17 'queer inclusive, which I guess those are becoming more popular...' God forbid we have a space place for gay people to experience the love of God and are welcomed 😭
Yep. Apparently he can add other requirements for salvation. Paul, you can say “you know what, we don’t agree on everything, but of course you are a Christian.” The essentials are the essentials.
The New Evangelicals is, in truth, one of my favorite RU-vid channels. I also really enjoy this channel, even though it's radically different. Conservatives just have to be right about everything and Progressives just have to prove conservatives wrong about everything. That's just human nature. Meeting in the middle is the key to understanding and coexisting with your fellow humans.
Tim: let’s study the Bible deeper and figure out what it’s really saying, rather than just take it at face value. Commenters here: Tim doesn’t know the Bible!
He's not wrong about the fact that there are different genres and that context is crucial. But I'm sorry, if you're claiming to be super knowledgeable on the Bible but still think "but Christians don't follow civil and ritual laws from the previous covenant and that's cherry picking" is a good argument, you lack a basic understanding of the Bible as a whole. He brings up context a lot, but then he uses the same dumb arguments that atheists who have never cracked open a Bible use as gotchas. That makes me take him way less seriously.
He actually said he doesn't go to the Bible but to man's opinions and man's books and philosophers. If he were a christian that believes the Bible he would first go the Bible not see what a philosopher or the world has to say. He may be a 'Progressive' but he ain't a Christian.
What he says is good. We should study it deeper. It’s just that what he’s saying is not lining up with his beliefs. I’ve delved deeper and figured out what it’s really saying, and many times you don’t or can’t take it at face value. When it comes to gay sex, it’s clear.
Well did you see the comments in here saying Christians worship the Bible too much? That is seriously one of the retaliations they give so they can explain away why they know know scripture. The reality is these conservative Evangelicals rarely if ever truly read the Bible thoroughly and allow their church to interpret everything for them. They in the end have little to no knowledge of the book that is supposed to bring them closer to God.
I consider myself very much in Tim's "camp," came to this with a lot of skepticism towards P&M yet this really did help to increase my empathy towards them as fellow humans. Appreciate that y'all did this and wish that more discussions could be as respectful
So Paul is saying you have to be careful and only pick scholars who fit into your narrow frame of doctrine. Paul’s calling Heaven and Hell a foundational tenet and it isn’t even in the Nicene Creed. Paul clearly didn’t have any understanding that there are actually other atonement theories that were accepted LONG before penal substitutionary atonement. Fundamentalists are so very lost in the dogma of men.
@@ajthomas2937 yeah, what does the Bible say - are you reading some lame English translation that doesn’t consider the literary styles and devices of the time and culture? Are you using the proper Biblicsl Hebrew exegesis? The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. Do you know the geography and the figures of speech related to terrain and climate? If not, perhaps you are dishonoring and not cherishing the Bible by giving it the respect the Text is due.
Tim brings up some really good points that I too struggled with when I was Protestant, particularly on the issue of authority to interpret scripture. Questions like, “If everyone has the Holy Spirit helping them interpret scripture, why do we all come up with different conclusions? And how do we know who’s right?” When you’re left to your own devices to interpret scripture, or pick and choose “scholars” or pastors based off what you want to hear, you get lost. It’s part of why I’m Orthodox now :) It would be really awesome to see Paul and Morgan do this series with an Orthodox priest or even an Orthodox layperson.
Respectfully Phoebe, The Holy Spirit ALWAYS AGREES WITH THE WORD. That is simple. So if the Word says homosexuality is a sin, it is a sin. If the WORD says God knew you in your mother's womb, then that makes it clear that is life and to abort it is sin. The Word says GOD IS THE CREATOR LORD, so the Holy Spirit will NEVER agree with transgender. Really, simple.
As a former church kid turned deconstructing whatever, I'm really loving this series. I love hearing the different perspectives, and I'm so curious how these conversations will shape your faith going forward. Looking forward to who you talk with next.
It’s kinda sad (read: scary) how much Paul wants eternal conscious torment to be true. Also, there is absolutely no logic or reason with people who worship (read: fear) a God who would torture his creation forever. Everything is seen through the lens of hell.
I don't think it's seen through the lens of hell...more so, the Bible does speak clearly about it so it is a necessary conversation at times:) They probably only stayed on it for "so long" since they disagreed on it.
So I just listened to the whole thing and I’m legitimately curious as to the type of commentaries Paul reads. It sounds like he is picking commentaries that already agree with his take on Scripture (I.e. they are just parroting a conservative/fundamentalist understanding of the text) rather than actually trying to study these things. Let’s take the Hell subject that was talked about. Has Paul read any scholars who hold to either annihilationism or universal reconciliation? If he hasn’t, and all he reads is people who already affirm ECT then how does he know what the Biblical evidence for those other positions are? How does he know the evidence against his own position? This was a very frustrating conversation to listen to because it sounds like Paul is saying, “I’ve studied the Scripture and I know better than these scholars.” Bro those scholars have spent years learning the socio-historical context, the original languages, the different schools of thought; it is actually asinine to think you have a better grasp of the text than those people.
I recently discovered TNE and I absolutely love them. As a person who is deconstructing my faith (not by choice btw), I would say that Ive become so much more loving and compasionate as an individual which is the at the core of how Christians should be. I love seeing people as people and not evangelism projects or sinners or lost. I hope people can listen with an open heart without the dualistic lens that Christians often see the world through. The world is not black and white, including the matter of someone personal faith. Paul and Morgan, I commend you guys for this series, its really cool and I love that ya'll are willing to learn about people and bridge the gap.
Yeah, I still can't decide if P&M are very brave or just want clout regardless because negative attention is a form of social currency with the right attitude lol And this is edited. I did learn a bit though and I appreciate it.
The example of spending time in life and engaging conversations that are hard in a good faith way is to be respected… I’m assuming pure motive and am glad this project exists!
@@theveldtrekker2550 so from your perspective, which of the commenters are Christian and which are not… you know, based on the “you tube comments doctrine of salvation” I’m guessing…?
this is really cool of you guys to do this series. i think it’s really commendable of you to try to bridge gaps and understand other points of view. and i think it helps to humanize everyone in the video. i’m a trans woman, and luckily i pass and get treated normally out and about, but sometimes the vitriol and judgement with which ive heard you guys speak just gets to me. i think that you guys often dehumanize trans people when you speak about us because you’ve never met us. and i think that’s a two way street. knowing that there’s people out there who think that my very existence is sinful and that im just crazy hurts so much and it makes it hard to see you guys as people sometimes. but i think this helps me to see that you guys are also people, even if you say things that hurt. im the happiest ive ever been but when i hear you guys talk about queer people, it makes me cry to think that there are people whose theology tells them that my joy is an abomination. i think that people on both sides don’t act with enough love and i think this is a beautiful first step. also i think that if there is a God, He made me this way. “God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation.” when i first started transitioning 4 years ago, i felt the same feelings i did when i was at church. medical and social transition made me feel the spirit in me like i hadn’t felt in years
i love Tim. He knows his facts inside and out and he is so passionate and not afraid to speak out about what he believes. love how he’s representing the progressive christian community 💕🙏🏼
I am so happy and glad Jesus Christ, the TRUE JESUS CHRIST was not a progressive. HE MEANT WHAT HE SAID. GO AND SIN NO MORE. GET AWAY FROM ME I NEVER KNEW YOU. AND WHAT ABOUT, IF ONE SINS AND YOU DO NOT TELL THEM THE TRUTH, THEIR BLOOD IS ON YOU.
Whoa. The comments are filled with progressive “Christians”. Great job having this conversation and holding to the truth, Paul. Unity with people who deny the fundamentals of the faith is not the goal, but I like Tim and I pray that you planted a seed with him.
People in the comments, let's be more respectful!! What I appreciate from this video was that Paul & Morgan and Tim obviously did disagree on some things but they didn't resort to disrespect, belittling or humiliating-we could all take a lesson from that!! I admire that people can stand by their beliefs, defend it in scripture and still smile at the person they're talking to. Thank you for sharing the video, Paul and Morgan:) God bless what you are doing.
55:40 You can literally never ever ever change Paul’s mind in a discussion. Such a good point and he CANT take it and maybe change some of his viewpoint
I appreciate this video as I never would have discovered this Tim guy otherwise. He really seems to know his stuff, I like how he is polite but firm and honest in his beliefs, and it’s fascinating to watch him run circles around Paul when they talk theology. I appreciate how Paul facilitated this convo.
I don't like your theology, Paul and Morgan. I have studied scripture professionally and academically, I have lived it. I have translated. I know where I stand, and where the linguistics leads. But I do have to say that it's good of you to have this conversation. I have not watched anything of this yet, but I'm assuming positive intent.
@@PaulandMorganI'll be honest, a bit disappointed. Clearly bits have been cut out for time (understandable), but it seems that you (Paul and Morgan) presented a cut that does not paint you in a good light. Tim was presenting good discussion and you deflected and changed course dozens of times. I was legitimately curious about how you would substantiate your beliefs only for you to fall back on an appeal to authority and feelings. Was really hoping for evidence and support. Ultimately, it was a bit frustrating. But I DO think you wanted the conversation to show how others think, even if you disagree. However, it came through that this felt more like a "Wow, can you believe this guy doesn't agree with us? Is he REALLY a Christian?" that's how it came off. I have several complaints and disagreements with both you and Tim, such as linguistic background, the historical understanding of the early church and when a belief became pseudo doctrine, etc, but ultimately it seemed like you went in not wanting to engage past a superficial level and when the discussion got too far beyond what you wanted to highlight (beyond gay marriage, sin, etc) you would change the topic. So yeah. I still think it's good of you to do this, but I think you, Paul and Morgan, REALLY need to mature in your understanding of the scripture. Most of the talking points I hear from you in this video and your others are like milk, as the apostle Paul says, you need to mature to spiritual meat and that requires hard looks into the scripture. This means not just commentaries from those you already agree with, because I notice the same circular reasoning of colleagues tho only cite papers that agree and never those who disagree. To understand catholic theology you can't just read Lutheran writings ABOUT Catholicism, you need to read Catholicism. That's what I see here. To understand Tim and the deconstruction movement (whatever that really is) you have read and listened to evangelicals talk and write about it, and this seems (seems being the operative word) like the first time you were faced with someone in the movement to tell you what it is and you were unaware. Lastly, I'll be praying for you. It is very clear that you two are growing in your faith, I just think you are chasing idols in this walk, and not following Jesus as fervently as necessary. I see lots of glorification of culture, rather than following the words of Jesus. Justification for your feelings on culture, rather than embodying the life and words of Christ. I believe that you can get there. But I think you both have a long road ahead, and a lot of humility that will need to happen. I'll be praying for you both.
@@somethinggood9267homosexuality, as we understand it today, is not in the Bible, neither Tanakh nor New Testament. The shift to homosexuality being a hot topic of emphasis can be identified as a cultural movement and not a biblical movement. For example, the passages in the Pentateuch that are used to denounce homosexuality actually is about child rape. The verses in the New Testament are referring to Greek temple prostitution, essentially paying money to temple of say Aphrodite, and basically participating in sex as a form of worship. The Greek words in those verses are used as a catch all framing of people having sex, it is not sexed as male or female.
Paul and Morgan handled this interview very well they were very respectful, loving, and kind. They let Tim speak his nonsense without being disrespectful, rude, or emotional towards Tim and that is commendable. P&M handled this conversation better than I would because I just don’t have the patience for complete idiocy and that’s exactly what Tim was spouting out every time he opened his mouth just pure stupidity. Tim is 100% a false teacher and he’s in idolatry because he is following a false god that he has created to conform to his own standards and ideas of what he believes to be good and evil and not what God says is good and evil.
Morgan - "Don't women at this age know that having sex can cause pregnancy?" Well, what about the women who are raped? And, what are children are raped?
@@rachele932 I'm confused by your comment. Since abortion is a matter that evangelicals like P&M deem worthy of federal legislative intervention and exceptions for rape/incest are often opposed, it's extremely relevant to point out that she's treating this as if every woman wanting an abortion is doing so as a response to her own poor choices.
@@rachelbarba3525That’s an unfair comparison. She is very open on her channel about her struggles with infertility. It has been a journey for her, hence her surprise.
@@rachele932 I don't understand the "1%" argument though because it's an exception for that. If it's "only" 1%...why are Christians so against them being able to get an abortion for a pregnancy that wasn't their fault?
I just found this at 1am and need to sleep but I’m saving it to watch tomorrow. Just some observs on the parts of videos I’ve watched, I really admire your relationship and I can tell that God is at the center of it. You’re also helping me to see that the more peaceful you are about a decision, cultural views, etc for example not getting angry or defensive, the closer that specific view or belief is to Christ-who is all peace. Thank you for leading me down the right path. Your Christian content is some of the best I’ve seen on RU-vid. I’m looking forward to watching more of your videos
However flimsy some people would suggest when it comes to his faith, that is a good quality trait to not just run with the narrative that the Bible is %100 Infallible. So many Christian’s (even in this comment section) do not have the ability to question their doctrine in any shape or form. Tim clearly doesn’t want to limit himself to the narrative that his contemporaries have created around him. A lot of Christian’s try so hard to try and make every word in the Bible work in perfect harmony. Sure you can try but there has to be a point where you ask yourself do you have grounds to assert that belief honestly or are you trying to make the Bible consistent out of sheer necessity for your own comfort? And watching this video, Paul is definitely the latter. He looked like he struggled listening to Tim talk about the conflicts that exist in the texts.
This argument is silly IF a Christian makes it. If the bible is not 100% trustworthy then anything you believe from it becomes cherry picked. You are not loyal to the word anymore, you are loyal to your own sensitivity. IF the bible can't be trusted without it being subordinate to other sources then why not just use those other sources all the time and throw the bible away?
@@ValveFanaticYou raise an interesting point. It is true that a lot of Christians believe that if there are any doubts about the authenticity of the text, then how can you be sure of it being a consistent source of moral authority. Thats the reason so many Christians have this need for it to be cohesive and there can’t be a conflict between messages. As far as throwing the Bible away, don’t think that is necessarily, it gives interesting insight into the beliefs of ancient society, and SOME history (not everything the Bible claims is history is historically accurate), but as far as a religious ideology, I think that could be put to sleep now.
@@ValveFanatic if you believe the Bible is to be trusted, then why wouldn’t you make it an absolute point to study the Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic languages to make sure your English translations aren’t wrong? For example, you would KNOW that there was no word “wife” in ancient Hebrew and that the word translated into English “wife” just said “woman” and could refer to ANY WOMAN. So already, your English translation is not inerrant, is it? And then you decide that a description of procreation “man and woman become one flesh” means your western definition of marriage -- when the rest of the book is full of men being “one flesh” with MANY women. You sure as heck can’t trust English translations. Perhaps you ought to read a couple of books by Dr E Randolph Richards: Mistranslating Scripture through Western Eyes Mistranslating Scripture through Individualistic Eyes And take a class in Biblical language studies!
@@glynisp8868 @glynisp8868 this missed my original point and is also backwards. You go looking for originals and multiple translations out of distrust not trust. Are you saying the original is incoherent or that you simply can't know with certainty anything about it. Because if that is the argument you are making then disbelieving the whole thing becomes the rational response.
@@ValveFanatic are you serious? Which translation of the Bible are you holding up as infallible? Which canon of Scripture? How can having knowledge that the English translation *you* choose could be mistranslated and misunderstand the original language and culture be wrong? It is not a lack of trust on God but in men who twist and pervert things to their own worldview. There is a desperation here to maintain a low view of the Text.
I want to ask Paul and Morgan this: How do you think the Bible came about? Yes it was written down by many different people, but who decided that their writings are God-breathed? And who decided which books make it into the Protestant or Catholic Bible canon respectively? And then, who gave these people the authority to make these decisions? Why do you put your faith in these people?
I really respect Paul and Morgan for this series, especially here. Re the Bible being 'obviously clear' on everything, I think that reading some of Tim's recommendations could be a really good, broadening idea. There's nothing to be afraid of!
so So SO well done! Like I've said, this 24 Hours series is absolutely achieving for me the purposes you guys have described. Whether I end up agreeing or disagreeing, this really humanizes the person. This episode in particular was so thought provoking and really challenged me to back up my beliefs with Scripture! Thank you Paul and Morgan for the hard work you've put into making these as well as for the bravery it takes to have these conversations!
I love this interview and one of the BIGGEST bias that we Christians have, is the teachings we were given as first christian exposure , I used to believe in the Trinity now I know better, I've learned to STUDY God's Word
I absolutely love Tim Whitaker. He is a great friend. I am quite surprised that Paul refused to say that Tim is a Christian. He would probably lose followers if he did that.
@@verweiler1 Hello. Respectfully, I have been going through all the comments of all the people who respond to the New Evangelicals. I have come to understand a lot of people really want to go to heaven, but there way, not God's. Very few believers truly want to make Jesus Christ/Yeshua the Jewish Messiah their Lord. Savior is one thing, Lord is another. It takes a lot of humility to make Him Lord and live it out. Respectfully, I have also heard in comments those becoming confused and not knowing what to believe about Jesus Christ/Yeshua the Jewish Messiah, because of what the New Evangelicals are saying. Truly truly, a pure heart wants the True God no matter what. And there are very few pure hearts out there. One more thing, if I may. Wounded hearts open a door for deception due to longing to be stroked and needing kindness. You can look for that in the wrong places and grab hold of falsehoods. All those writing in who are wounded need to get back to the True God of the True Word and let Him heal them, so they can not be deceived. I hope you are a lover of The True God, and I am not talking christianity. Popes changed the God of the Bible. And christianity followed the popes.
So I guess that by this guys description, his theology is that Jesus is not loving because Jesus points out other’s sin? No matter how he goes around justifying his beliefs of Christianity, there are always flaws. Like there’s no ying and yang that can match up with accountability on the Christian side AND the progressive. Christian’s have to do this and progressives do not have to account for their behavior. I do get his concern about legalism in Christianity, however, we don’t change what the Bible clearly teaches to find a “better theology” to be inclusive. This is what is done in, for example, Mormonism and Roman Catholic worlds. They took scripture and made it say what it wants to say for their agenda. Progressivism is just another self- loving theology.
On the historic accuracy of the Exodus account I recommend the documentation series "Patterns of Evidence". It does a good job of explaining why a lot of secular scholars doubt it happened as written, while also giving very credible evidence as to what these sceptical scholars are missing.
I appreciate you opening your podcast to interview a guest who shares opposing views, exploring them with patience & gentleness, so we all learn to employ love in our interactions with everyone
@@harleyssecrets I used to be an atheist. I’ve since come back into my spirituality but that’s very personal to myself and nobody else. Not sure what you mean about a cult.
What can I say Paul and Morgan well done on this topic I follow Tim and The New Evangelicals pod cast and appreciate the way you handled things I am going through a stage in my life as to why I really believe what I believe in, i come from an evangelical baptist church and there have been several statements been made in sermons that I have been lies or bad ideas put into the sermons this had rocked what I believe in. That and how to reconsile other christian faiths eg the R. Catholic and eastern orthodox and any other demonstrations out there also scripture is used and so often weponised by pastor's to control the congestion in their thoughts and ideas which is disingenuous to people intelligence. I love Jesus and I love God and believe probably everything you both believe in but we need to be open minded about a book that is thousands of years old in a language that really is dead (old Hebrew) and even the greek is not spoken anymore so interpretation of the scripture we need to have our minds on when it was written and to who as its not really to us yes we can glean ideas from it but that is all ot will be theology is just a mans thoughts on God nothing more this can change as it has through history. Just to ask when you study the bible do you always go to a "trusted sorce" that affirms you ideas? That is not study that is taking a mans side i like to get several options on a subject before landing on one and some out of my comfort zone. Keep up your work and keep your mind open as we all think differently on things.
It’s so deeply painful so witness the ineffective headship of this little family.This is a multigenerational educational failure in action.The safe arrival of their firstborn was in jeopardy due to the willful arrogance and reality denialism of these adult aged children.Surely their reliance on charity for revenue could qualify these parents for community college or GED assistance.This Paul person is so simultaneously abusive and insecure it’s comical.My most earnest prayer is that this account belonging to this Paul and Morgan is ultimately a long con for tax-free cash and not sincerely harmful choices by poorly malignant narcissistic puppets
Hey Paul… here is your scripture for Universal reconciliation. It’s literally one of the last passages that closes out the Bible. Revelation 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, “Look, I am making everything new!” And then he said to me, “Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true
@@somethinggood9267 Revelation 21:5? Or 8? Either way “all things” are “all things.” In verse 8, the fiery lake is the refiner’s fire like in refiner's fire of Malachi, Zechariah, and Wisdom of Solomon. The refiner’s fire purifies and makes things new, it is correction and renewal, not torment. Revelation is a book of encouragement to dissidents; John starts by reassuring readers everything will turn out all right for everyone after all. The people when it was written knew exactly what John was saying - it wasn’t cryptic mysterious material to them. Such a massive disservice is done by not seeking understanding of the audience, the rhetorical devices, the language, the culture. Now if you are talking about who won’t be in the city, if they are all purified, that is a moot point. But iff you are driving at being worried about the list of people who wouldn’t get in if they weren’t ultimately purified: the word “homosexual” put in fundamentalist translations? It does not say this in the Greek - it says “the abominable.” It also doesn’t say “sexually immoral,” the Greek simply says immoral.
Also C.S. Lewis' fiction refers to universal reconciliation in both The Chronicles of Narnia as well as The Space Trilogy. It was in these novels that I had ever come across the idea, and it hit me so hard and softened my heart and deepend my faith and hope.
This is interesting. Paul sounds like he wants to just follow whatever the Bible says. Tim, however, is full of careful thought and nuance. Tim is the guy I relate to more. Tim is the guy I want to be like. I don’t want to just follow what some book says because the book says the book is true. I want REAL truth affirmed by everything in the universe. And I think truth can evolve to some extent - I don’t think it’s necessary static.
If you choose to follow God, then you will simply do what He says and follow His Son. If you choose to follow man, then you will do what Tim says. But you will pay a very dear price. Be careful. Make Jesus Christ LORD and bow to HIM alone.
I have to say I am honestly surprised by this episode. I tend to fall closer to Tim than Paul and Morgan doctrinally but I have a new found respect for P&M. I think you came across as more open minded than I expected and you did a fairly accurate job of portraying Tims beliefs. Thanks.
I didn't even know who Tim was before this podcast, but you two got schooled. I don't agree with everything Tim said, but you probably should update your debate game.
Let Scripture interpret scripture. Amen. The Word IS Truth. God is not a god of confusion. His word is clear to all those with ears that want to hear Him.
I used to believe this let scripture interpret scripture but it is not as easy as that you need the historical context of the time we can't pull the OT into the here and now it just doesn't work that way the mind set was completely different back then. And what scripture the NT is technically not scripture during Jesus' time only the OT. The NT is more like a commentary and most of it is letters not books. We can't be dogmatic on anything in reality as there are so many different denominations all saying they are right we all have truth in our denominations. We need to be open to Jesus and his teachings remember the apostles where just men the same as you or me fallible and not perfect even Paul admits to still sin as a Christian Peter also sinned as a Christian by bringing the law's back. I take my queue for reading the OT from the Hebrews people/Jews and what their name is Israel "wrestled with God" as they do with their scripture we need to remember that the OT is not a Christian book is a Jewish book we have taken I think they know how best to handle their scriptures and what is real and what is abstract. There is a lot of wisdom in the OT but also a lot of problems with humans.
The problem is, scripture cannot interpret scripture. Every person is the product of their culture and traditions. If it was truly scripture interpreting scripture you would need to have the original aramaic, Hebrew, and Greek texts, and you would be able to place thousands of people independently to read and interpret on their own and they'd ALL come to the same interpretation. And if that were true there would be no need for pastors or elders or deacons. The problem is that people have minds of their own, and they will interpret things differently.
If that was the case, if the word is the truth, go is not a god of confusion and the word is clear, then why are there so many different sects of christianity and o many different interpretations?
I really appreciate how Paul and Morgan are engaging in these conversations. The number one thing I wonder about is, what have Paul and Morgan learned from their "24 hours with" series. After talking to people who they were very friendly with, and discussing their differences within the same faith, there has to be some new perspectives getting to know these people they have interviewed. I think this series is the best content I have seen on this channel.
When there’s not a shared understanding about what the Bible is (inerrant/authoritative/wisdom literature/historical accounts) it’s very difficult to have a productive debate about the application of scriptural passages. As Dan McClellan would say: scripture doesn’t have inherent meaning, we all derive our own meaning from it. Therefore we are really just debating our own personal values, not Biblical values per say. Thanks for this conversation!
I really want to see that, because Catholicism actually has answers to a lot of these questions that came up on where authority to interpret scripture comes from. It would be interesting to see them engage with those.
Paul and Morgan, how would you respond to your child who says "Hey mom and dad, I am engaged to someone going through conversion therapy for their homosexual desires"? Would you say " great, hope this is the person for you and you have a happy life and family together" or "would you encourage them to think long and hard before making this commitment, knowing full well your child, both of you and many others will always be suspect, as any human being would, that they are committed to their conversion and not stepping out"?
Thank you Paul and Morgan for graciously engaging in this difficult conversation and for doing so with love and truth. I especially appreciated how Paul continuously brought the conversation to specific Bible passages, arguing from Scripture. May the Lord richly bless you both and your family for your faithfulness and boldness.
I just generally find the way you ask questions to not open up a conversation. Obviously tim takes it and runs but these questions seem like you're attempting to predict his response too much. I would by no means call myself an exvangelical, but I would say that I went through the process of questioning what I had been taught many years and think that it is beneficial to reject some of the post-reformation pitfalls that the church has gotten into with fundamentalist views. It's interesting that the starting point is that "if Genesis and other OT books aren't 100% historical narrative, then you cannot have a Biblical understanding of Christ." It's leaves no room for your opinion to be wrong even if there is evidence it might not be historical. I would just urge the person taking that stance to evaluate their approach to scripture and assess if their being dishonest to the text and holding it into their formula or post-reformation formula.
Scripture interprets scripture. So we don't just have one verse about homosexuality in the bible, we have a couple. In one of them, it describes people who were led astray by their perverse desires and had same-sex relations
I think context and which translation of the Bible being referred to is important. The word homosexual/homosexuality wasn’t even added in the Bible until the 1940’s
