Super insightful!! I learned recently about over extraction basically not existing from Reddit, where users said the longer they let their coffee brew (up to 10 minutes) the better it was. Really appreciate you putting this info out for free.
This actually confirmed and explained what I have been thinking for years! The whole over extraction theory never quite made sense to me. Especially when I started experimenting on my used cold brew grounds from really good quality light roasted beans. After extracting via cold brew, I tried drip brewing them and it was delicious - and I couldn’t explain that before - but now I can ...
Sorry to be so offtopic but does anybody know of a method to log back into an instagram account? I was dumb lost the login password. I would love any help you can give me
@Alaric Finn thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and Im in the hacking process atm. Seems to take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
I think "sideways" tamper may be working by breaking clumps and basically making the puck more uniform. If there is a part of the puck that is less dense it may be that the coffe, having to move somewhere, will move preferentially in the direction of less dense (because why would it do something else). It might be it makes least dense spots little more dense and thats enough to improve entire shot because more water is available to the rest of the puck.
Thank you for publishing this ! Was immediately able to troubleshoot my filtered brew , even though it may not be perfect , it certainly opened up a new dimension of calibration for me :')
yes mate! I have been thinking about an idea like this for ages (re distribution tool). I think its a really fucking good idea. The best method i have used for distribution is the scotty callhan dosing tools. Used in combo with collapsing the bed and an automatic doser (old paddle style). I'm so glad your working on this other idea though, I will buy it.
This is super super informative (as was the Ek43 burr alignment video, easily transferrable to a lot of flat burr genders (my Baratza Vario included). On the VST basket subject, Do you find any issues with dosing more or less than the stated basket size? (aka do you notice a difference dosing 18g in an 18g VST vs 18g in a 20g VST?)
An interesting talk that helped me understand why the selection of beans, methods of roasting and a quality grinder are so important, but other than that, I feel like there's very little actionable information here. What are some examples of roasters that use quality beans and roast using some method other than a drum roaster? At the very least, what specific things should I be looking for to find one on my own? Ditto for grinders. Any examples of grinders proven to produce consistent grinds? Are there any specific characteristics to look for in a quality grinder?
Mate, this is in large part a very detailed sales pitch as he says at the end. Do you want this info, go to the Barista Hustle courses. He figured this complex stuff out over years of practice and experiment, do you want to get everything for free? :)
This is more about examining the various bad end-results, versus explaining how to do it correctly. Ideas are interesting to a degree, but putting things into practice is far more enjoyable.
it's hard to hear the questions at the end, and your answers are very direct and assume that the listener is familiar with the question (obviously in real life, but not so over a youtube video). if you could incorporate the question into your answer, or rephrase the question before giving your answer, it would help online viewers.
I'm just a regular Joe public, but even though I couldn't hear the questions, the answers were informative. Maybe I managed to infer the questions because I follow science stuff a bit?
This video shows how inconsistent particle size means that large particles can be very underextracted while smaller particles get completely extracted. So, if you blend two different bean types (like a harder and softer bean or a lighter and darker roasted bean) before grinding, you may wind up with different size particles and then get underextraction in a big percentage of the total. It would look like you should grind the different beans separately and only blend after grinding. But I'm under that impression that blending is mostly done before grinding and many outlets sell their famous blends in whole bean or even green unroasted form. Doesn't this guarantee inconsistent particle size and fractional underextraction? What's the solution? What do the pros do?
this is interesting topic, let's discuss it. at some video, where a barista explain about home blend coffee, i asking him about the consistency if we preblend the beans before grinding, we'll never get exact ration in every dose or scoop we need, and he just told me that i don't need to be exactly precise, just blend it before grinding. the only way to get exact consistency is grinding different beans separately in their respective ratio then mix them, but it will be less efficiency in a busy coffee shop. so the big question is, is there another effective way to get a consistent ratio for blended beans without wasting time measure it and grind it separately?
Talking about extraction in a sense of gray & black shades, how does grind size affects the ratio of gray & black shades? Since white shade will not count as nothing is actually extracted.
So in theory, grind sizes wouldnt affect flavour that much as and that it has to do more with strength as larger grind sizes still extracts the same way as fines, but not completely ???
2:50 I dunno, if you ground up a lot of things into super fine particles and run hot water at high pressure through it, I'm sure you can dissolve 10% or more easy. How try putting salt or sugar in the portafilter basket, it will likely all dissolve into the drink :P
Thanks for the video man, really interesting work. I want to pick on one thing just because I think semantically we should all be on the same page. You can't have a 'more unique' coffee than another it's either one of a kind or it isn't. A better word could maybe be 'special' it fits well with the term specialty and one coffee can be more special than another.
in a world where we could magically vanish the coffee grinds from the brew slurry after they have extracted, yes. the compromise in grind that we make is for practicality reasons - we have to remove the spent grounds from the beverage somehow. if the grounds are too fine, they're going to interfere with that filtering.
@@letsgetcarriedaway then what about aeropress? we could go very very fine without clogging and since it's a paper filter it would remove most of the grinds
INFEKT paper filters actually do far less of the filtering than you’d think. the coffee bed itself filters out heaps of colloids. the paper filter relies on that so it doesn’t get clogged itself and start filtering unevenly. and going too fine in an aeropress will invite channeling through the coffee bed, like espresso.
@@letsgetcarriedaway Thanks for your reply! With the Aeropress if you brew inverted and you let it sit for a longer time, you wouldn't rely on the coffee bed for extraction since it's an immersion brew and the coffee has been in contact with the water the whole time or am I wrong? So channeling really shouldn't be an issue. What are colloids and what are the things that you want to filter from coffee other than just the grains?
INFEKT colloids are undissolved solids smaller than 1um. coffee lipids and oils can be filtered out by paper - whether you like them or not is a question of taste. the main purpose of the filter paper is to hold the coffee bed together while it filters itself, and the paper manages to mop up oils and the few particles that escape from the coffee bed. and yes you’re right, an immersion brew doesn’t rely on the plunge for extraction - but the plunge still needs to happen to separate the grounds from the brew, and as a result, excessive channeling will still happen if the grind is too fine. i say excessive because channeling in percolation brews is inevitable. all we can do is try to minimise it.
I bought a 500um sife online, grind fine enough so that my grinds can pass straight through. Put them into a BH cupping bowl. The results prove in my parameter with that particular coffee, it does over extract. Tastes dull and super dry.. no souce pan needed.
Peter Wang My problem exactly. I completely understand that as narrow particle disteibution as possible is desirable for an even extraction. However, I failed to follow the logic to the point where over-extraction in normal coffee brewing is a myth. Must probably re-listen to the crucial bits. Ps. My fines tasted awful in the cupping bowl, too.
Maybe you should lower the time, because it will extracted too quickly so if you wait like a normal cupping there may be over extraction. Try and leave a comment, i will be waiting for it
The coffee you were using was bad. I grind Turkish-fine for cuppings and they taste great. Even though a roaster might look good, their coffee might be trash.
Perger searches for sweetness in his espresso. Except when adding sugar at an Italian coffee bar, I’ve never tasted sweetness in black coffee. Bitterness, acidity, even the occasional fruit note such as blueberry in Yirgacheffe, yes; but sugar-type sweetness no.
@@sissyphussartre2907 Not bullshit, sweetness of beans above a q-score of 90 is usually incredibly high, equaling or higher than fruit. Michael is referring to the honey-like characteristics.
@@sissyphussartre2907 it is bs. Sugar in any known coffee doesn't even approach that contained in fruit, or much less that of honey. Rather it's about us perceiving the characteristics that resemble sweetness. The complex moxture of conpounds evokes in our minds other sweet things, but the chemistry behind it is still largely unknown.
at a certain fineness, water won't flow evenly through the puck. it'll find the path of least resistance, and open channels. the grounds around these channels will have hot water flowing past them long after they've given up their flavours (leading to those overextracted flavours) while other parts of the puck are less contacted. this causes a reduction in solids taken from the coffee, leading to a drop in strength and extraction. so you grind as fine as you can while the water can still flow evenly through the puck.
I think you may need to reconsider your thoughts on conical vs flat bottom pour overs. You argue that you believe water has a tendency to prematurely exit the cone, whereas with a flat bottom it more likely to pass through all the grounds before exiting the brewer. The result of this, you suggest, would be more less even extraction in a conical filter. Given otherwise identical brews, the top layers of a pour over are going to have nearly the same extraction regardless of geometry, since they will have been brewed by pure water. Any unevenness then would be the result of less extraction from coffee deeper in the bed, and if your theoretical filter bypass process was the dominating factor we would expect flat bottom pour overs to haver higher TDS (all else being equal). This contradicts recent findings ("Effect of Basket Geometry on the Sensory Quality and Consumer Acceptance of Drip Brewed Coffee", Frost et. al. 2019) which showed that conical geometries produce significantly higher TDS. More generally, I think your assumption that water more easily flows through filter paper than coffee is likely incorrect. Testing by James Hoffmann that he mentions in his "Ultimate V60 guide" suggests otherwise. This is easily tested by stacking coffee filters to the same thickness as a coffee bed and attempting to pour water through, you will notice that it drains significantly slower than an equivalent thickness of coffee grounds.
Common household pepper is carcinogenic. Should you stop eating pepper? You can, but I am not planning to. Carcinogens are scary because there is no safe dose, so pepper in any quantity is worse than any less quantity. That being said, I do not know the level at which pepper consumption becomes especially dangerous. I am assuming it is significantly higher than average intake, but perhaps that is something the person in the video that was trying to flex can determine.
oof, at around 39:00 I feel the wheels coming off a bit. You're really trying to go with the narrative that coffee can't be overextracted. It feels like you're saying this to elicit cognitive dissonance in the audience. I love that, but then you have to sort of qualify yourself by saying yes it is possible to overextract coffee. Wouldn't it suffice to say we can enjoy higher extraction yields if can work towards better evenness (grind size SD, fineness, even roasting/solubility, etc). Anyway, enjoyed it nonetheless
Next time if you're going to do video of your presentation, show it, not the graphs. Make the graphs graphics *added* into the video and perhaps have a mic for people during the Q&A.
Perfection in coffee is fairly objective. A perfectly brewed coffee is one where you can taste all that is in the bean. That means high, even extraction
When I'm trying to learn about espresso, I'm not going to look at a video that is an hour and a half long and drops the F-bomb in the first 12 seconds. It's not as if I'm a captive audience.
I know I'm going to get slammed for this, but I recently finished watching a beautiful church sermon today, 03-22-2020, and decided that I wanted to drink coffee. In not good at making coffee, and secided to RU-vid it. I've seen three videos. One had the has wonderful content, but had the eeriest, satanic music. Then this video opens up with the speaker talking about his 25-year long talk entitled WTF, which he spoke every word if that acronym, and I feel upset. On a Sunday, the F-word is the LAST word I need to hear. That is such a filthy word. Yes, I've said that word myself before, so I can't judge or stand better than anyone in the world. However, it G R I E V E S my heart that our souls have been kidnapped by this vile, profane, heinously defiling word. Lord have mercy! If you only knew THE HIDDEN INTENT OF this word and the deed most often associated with this word, and what actually HAPPENS in the spirit world around the speaking and doing of this word, you'd be as interested in it as you would having someone smear THEIR feces all over your body from head to toe. That's how filthy it really is. NOT JOKING. If just one person appreciates what I said, all the hatred and vitriol that I'm likely to receive will be worth it. Even if everyone here hates on me for saying this, it's OK. It is well with my soul.
"Do everything theoretically perfect and then it'll be all good. Oh and by the way,we don't have any way to reach that theoretical perfection." How inpractical and utterly useless. How indoctrinated must one be to assume a maximum extraction is the uniform goal for all people across all cultures who drink coffee. Ironic how a blind cultist of "specialty" coffee now thrives for a boring and unrealizable uniformity. Also, anyone with elementary knowledge of physics would never assume that a flatbed pourover device gives water incentive to flow equally across every part of the slurry.
I was all excited after watching this, so I went to make a pourover, i made it one click finer and decided to use about 30g less water. it tasted like burnt rubber and pennies, what the hell happened?
