Aegon vs Rhaenyra: Who is the Rightful Heir in House of the Dragon? 

It was stablished that male succession would prevail over that of females after the Dance, so it would always be clear from the start who would be king, no matter the will of the previous king.

I mean, the Blackfyre rebellions happen after this. Lol

Because the eldest son and the eldest daughter always married. Here they didn't.

@@Alejojojo6 It wasn't established that the male line would always prevail over the female. That is just a lie made up by the usurper Viserys II in order to help his steal the birthright of the true queen Daena the Defiant. I think even the usurper's son Aegon the Unworthy must have realized that wrong when he legitimized Daena's son Daemon Blackfyre.

Oh but it did

He needed the Hightowers to back him to have the throne. Daemon would have never allowed his older brother to give up the throne. He married Rhaenerya to secure the throne for himself. Viserys didn’t want the Hightower to take the throne though. That’s why he refused to name Aegon II his heir.

​@HelenA-vz5wy Well isn't that bit of a pickle. He tried to fuck over his two greatest allies and almost destroyed his entire bloodline. The Greens offered a valid means to run the kingdom smoothly for generations with food wealth and knowledge and were the obvious better choice in my opinion but they were ambitious and worst of all westerosy. Choosing them means no incest or murder monsters or god complexes for the Targaryen family so Daemon and Viserys aren't fans of that. The Blacks are the most traditional choice and the pick he made in the book and show which is understandable. They offer Targaryen traditional values of strength and family (fire and blood) as well as magic as powerful tools for the long and short term wars and battles. The downside being they only really have fire and blood so say goodbye to mental stability and healthy wives and babies. Food and man power and economic growth or development is also gone because they finished the conquerors' journey four generations ago. If you burn the food and farmers and noble families and boats and supplies for defiance they're gone forever and you put your spoiled kids and violent family members in charge of that. The dance really was a shit show

You can look at it the other way though and that all he was doing by supporting Rhaenyra is reinforcing the right of the king to choose his successor and have the Lord's swear to support his chosen one. That's basically what Jaeharys did. He had two valid choices but in differing directions and in the end he put it to a vote. Then forced everyone to respect that choice. If you look at it from that perspective Viserys was probably trying to emulate that

​@@JohnDoe-vw4zf Aemond and Aegon were violent fools too. Lucerys and Jacerys were more well adjusted.

​@@happilyevernever4289we barely know anything about them and besides theyre bastards so

Corlys had a gay son.... medieval times don't have ivf sooo someone had to father the next generation. High treason indeed but they ignored it because they forced a straight woman and gay man together

@@ayshagaylealso, and people can argue against this if they want but it’s kinda bs if they do, Laenor CHOSE Luke to be his heir. People act as though Laenor had no idea and they try and compare Rhaenyra’s kids to Cersei’s (even though Robert had no idea and, unlike Laenor, would have been pretty pissed off.)

Corlys had brothers, nephews, and cousins. His focus on his name is blocking their rights to their own family's legacy.

I mean, the head of the house gets decide his successor. And Corlys and Laenor agreed. I get the others are upset but that's just the reality of having a head of the house, that they can do probably more than they should

All of the Targaryen's have Velaryon blood, Aegon and his sisters had a Velaryon mother, Jaehaerys' and his siblings mother was Velaryon and that same woman was later mother to Boremund and Jocelyn Baratheon, the latter of which is Rhaenys' mother. Rhaenyra's sons are not biological descendants in the main line of succession of house Velaryon, but Corlys and Laenor always acted and claimed as if they were and it's their choice to knowingly do so despite being aware of the truth. They both also show genuine love and affection for the kids, Corlys even says to Rhaenys that he won't name Baela his heir even as a tribute to Laena because it will 'cast an even darker shadow' over the boys' heads. Corlys is an ambitious man, but he also loves his family, even if some of them aren't actually (closely) related to him, his actor has even said that he wants his character to be devastated and furious at Luke's death in season 2 'because that's his grandchild'. Treason is a crime against the sovereign and the realm as a whole, the high treason is Jace being heir after Rhaenyra as she is passing him off as legitimate while she's heir to the throne, it has nothing to do with Luke and Driftmark. Funnily enough if you crunch the numbers, by percentage, Alicent's children are more Velaryon than Rhaenyra's and Rhaenyra's are more Targaryen than Alicent's.

She wouldn't have, especially since nobody liked her as she was a massive dickhead to everyone, especially men.

Según lo que vi si

Except the Targaryens aren't native Westorosi and the practices of their dynasty have been built on making the rules as they go. There was no King of the 7 realms before Aegon forced everyone to recognize him. Incestuous marriage is still outlawed in Westeros, but the Targaryen's specifically have been granted an exception due to Jaeharys maneuvers. Even the great council was an unprecedented event that was of Jaeharys invention. Viserys could have argued that the council was not precedent for male vs female progeniture but that it was instead a precedent for the a ruling king to be able to designate a rightful heir (in the event of multiple claimants) while he was still living. That was arguably the intent of Jaeharys anyway

@@frosthounded Viserys could also have stated that he was setting a new precedent that the daughter of a first marriage would inherit before the son of a second.

@@DavidbarZeus1 The problem is that despite what people say the King cant just do whatever he wants because you need people to support you and the Lords were never going to accept Rhaenyra while the king had a son. Viserys was a naive and feckless king who really should have known better.

Was looking for this comment. Great work writing this -- better than I could have. The fact of the matter is that, royal decree or no, some conflict was inevitable because of the inherent claims of Aemond and Aegon. Factor in the fact that EVERYONE knows the boys are bastards (and the stigma bastards have in this world), and it won't take long for some lord or two to come to the conclusion that Viserys' true-born sons should sit the throne. The only way to have avoided this was to have acknowledged Aegon as the heir. Rhaenyra may not be happy, but there would be little she could realistically do.

@@mikeygigs There would probably be 'claims' further down the line but it wouldn't really be because of the paternity of Rhaenyra's kids, it would be because people have something to gain from pushing and/or backing a claim and the paternity issue would just be the excuse. The biggest factor in the setting it that despite them having all these codes or honor and chivalry, most of the time they get thrown out as soon as they become inconvenient. The reason Westeros (if not their entire planet) is stuck in stagnation so badly is because 'the game of thrones' feeds on the inherent selfishness of the people who inhabit it - very rarely does any of the characters do the right thing simply because it's the right thing, especially when there's a cost to it (Duncan & Aerion for example). Westeros has succession issues constantly, I don't think it would even matter if they were Aegon or Rhaenyra's descendants, the squabbling is inherent to the continent. But if Rhaenyra and her descendants did well as sovereigns then any claim isn't going to get enough traction to actually amount to anything, even the dance as a whole saw majority of houses side with Rhaenyra and a significant amount remain neutral despite paternity claims, the main issue those against her seemed to have was that she was a woman, not that her 3 eldest sons might be bastards. The Blackfyre rebellions, especially the first, proved that being a bastard doesn't mean that people wont support you. Many houses that supported Daemon bordered Dorne and there was a strong anti-Dornish sentiment since Daeron's wife was a Martell, him being a bastard was less important to them than removing the growing Dornish influence at court. Some supported Daemon because it was advantageous for them to do so, some preferred him as the ideal image of a Valyrian prince over the Dornish-looking Prince Baelor, some of them simply believed that he would be a good king.

Dead kings word means nothing...

Or perhaps just bethored Aegon to Rhaenyra

@@jenniferjames3354 Yet another case of: Otto was right.

Rhaenyra F up more by having illegitimate sons, not one but 3 BRUH TF!

@@Mmm-nj5dk Yes, this was the real problem. She'd put Strong boys on the throne. It's funny how people hate Otto for being a schemer trying to put Hightowers (with pure Targaryen features and the surname Targaryen) on the throne, but are okay with Rhaenyra putting Strong brood on the throne.

Bueno more aún así viseris seguía favoreciendo. Pobre alicent tanto cuidar a viseris para al final no obtener nada para sus hijos

Also, Rhaenyra willingly leaves the Blackwood and Bracken kids to fight to the death seemingly not giving a single shit about them. She also says that the wants of the small folk do not matter. Then when sending her son to make an important alliance with the Baratheons she offers literally nothing compared to the Greens offering a marriage alliance. I think she's more than shown that she isn't any better at diplomacy than her brother

could not have said it better myself

It's heartwarming to find some Rhaenyra slander.

Her having illegitimate sons and calling them legitimate, was also a BAD move.

And team stark ,they hardly done anything at the dance

@@jeffalver2047 Winter Wolf are rolling in grave now.

@@Sasaaa902 They aren't Starks.

@@edgarrojas5060 What ?

@@Sasaaa902 The winter wolves are only an advance of the northern army but the Starks (Cregan) weren't present in the war until it ended.

I would agree if he changed it after Aegon was born but he didn't

Viserys had two more sons yet he still didn't disinherit Rhaenyra.

​@@STARK0181 so what? No female rules after her EVER. Yes she lost that fight.

@@michaelnkomphela8231 Just because no female didn't rule after Rhaenyra's time, doesn't undermine Viserys' decision. Viserys had 3 sons after Rhaenyra. He could've passed the royal inheritance to any one of them at any point, but he didn't. He stood firm in his decision in Rhaenyra to the very end. This shows that he clearly believed in her.

@@michaelnkomphela8231 And she didn't necessarily lose either. Rhaenyra is not some feminist revolutionary who wants to overturn the Westorosi patriarchy.She just wants what every other character wants, to inherit the iron throne, while honouring her father's legacy. She does sit on the throne. And although her reign is brief, her son (Aegon III) becomes king , with her other son (Viserys II) as his hand and eventual successor.

I think at least book wise since their grandmother princess rhyneys has black hair. But even as someone who’s team black, this was rhaenyas dumbest mistake

@@applefly8 Rhaenys has black hair when she was young, but she started greying early in life. By the Dance of the Dragons she had mostly silver hair, although some black streaks remained. Rhaenys mother Jocelyn Baratheon was the child born in a scene that clearly inspired how the show handled Aemma's death. Jocelyn survived the c-section but her mother Alyssa Velaryon died. Alyssa was the sister of Coryls's grandfather, the widow of King Aenys I, and the mother of King Jaehaerys. Jocelyn's father Robar Baratheon was a descendant of Orys Baratheon, Aegon the Conqueror's bastard half brother. Jocelyn was thus Valyrian on both sides despite the black hair she passed on to Rhaenys. In the show Viserys and Coryls signed a special treaty that requires Rhaenyra's children to bear the name Velaryon until ascending the throne. I think that would technically apply to all her children regardless of who their biological father was, and could stand in for an official bill of legitimacy.

@@magister343 I wouldn't know if I would call age 50 early

It has been a while since I read Fire and Blood, but I think I remember it mentioning that she developed her first silver streak at around age 20. By age 55 the silver hairs outnumbered the black. @@sodaandstars4389

It was stated multiple times in the show that practically everyone knows they are bastards

Yeah no book all the greens in the book except maybe Daeron and Halaena are all pretty terrible people Alicent literally makes up rumors about a 10yr old Rhaenyra having sex with Criston Cole and left Viserys body rot for 10 days while they were scheming to have Aegon on the throne Show Alicent is way nicer

Lol the greens in the book are alot more villainous lol. Aemond is just a psychopath with the biggest dragon, Alicent is a bitch. Otto is well Otto. Criston is practically the same. Aegon II is pretty terrible but his bond qith Sunfyre is very admirable. Daeron and Haelena are probably the only likable ones.

​@@lonemotheomatshaba9640Thats cap bruh.

Is it? Most of the Greens were laughably evil in the books, the Blacks were almost laughably evil in Rhaenyra/Daemon; but most Blacks seemed generally well adjusted.

@@AaronGuest He tellin facts m8. The greens in the books are laughably more villainous. Atleast in the show they're better except Aegon

That is how the history by the Maesters portrays her, but apparently they are taking a different approach in the show and Rhaenyra will actually face Aegon and Aemond along side Rhaenys. Keep in mind this is a battle where Aegon the King would be seriously wounded by his rival and a female. That would bolster Rhaenyra’s standing and the Greens and Maesters couldn’t have that.

@@Jacaerys1 the book is not some bias maester work dude, quit coping. Rhaenerya was a coward and didn’t do shit during the war

@@Jacaerys1 Pure cope. If the show is the real canon, then if anything the histories has been pro-Rhaenyra propaganda than pro-Green; framing the Greens as pure evil with no redeeming qualities.

@@coleheilgeist i mean the books literally written like that, by a historian, so its not 100 percent the truth

@@lulu-vp2yc we get 4 different accounts of dance of dragons and in none of them does Rhaenyra do anything at all. I’m not hating I think she’s an interesting character but it’s the truth

The problem with that is it might imply that his older sister Rhaena had a stronger claim to the throne than Jaehaerys himself. Because, you know, she did. Viserys's best bet is to invoke the law that Jaehaerys and Alyssane passed which said that a lord could not disinherit his children from his first marriage in order to allow children from a future marriage to inherit.

This is Westeros, the heir of the iron throne should be of patrillineal descent of Aegon the conqueror, not of some minor dragonlord wannabe house like House Velaryon, as it would have happened if Rhaenys was made Queen.

@@magister343 At that point it doesn't really matter though. When Aemon dies, Rhaena herself is already dead, along with her daughter Aerea who died much earlier. Rhaena's second daughter Rhaella might've still been alive, but she became a Septa, which disqualifies her from the succession anyways. Rhaena doesn't have any eligible living descendants, so it really wouldn't affect Jaehaerys' own claim. And Jaehaerys' 'Widow's Law' about it being illegal to disinherit children in favour of their younger half-siblings really only applies when the first wife has sons. If a lord's first wife didn't have any sons, but his second wife did, the sons of his second wife come before any daughters his first wife had, no questions asked.

@@MRJR-xi4bnif Jace ascended, he would’ve adopted the surname “Targaryen”; no Velaryon, by blood right would’ve ever sat the throne. In the books there are occasional cases of this. Harold Hardyng will do the same if he inherits The Eyrie from SweetRobin. He’ll take his Grandpa Lord Jasper Arryn’s name. Prince Mors Martell was succeeded by his daughter. Her son succeeded & dropped his father’s name & went by the last name “Martell”; the Martells handled every subsequent instance of this, the same way

And then in a decade you'd have Daemon invading to press his/Viserys's claim. The realm would be more likely to support this usurpation than any attempt Rhaenys would have made so in this way picking Viserys was the more stable outcome.

You want the war of the five kings? Cause that's how you get the war of the five kings!

Ehhh even so that's Daemon's line regardless

@@blitzkrieg2928 True! According to the books (Laena is older than Laenor) Daemon's kids with Laena have the strongest claim against Aegon

She has a claim because she’s a Targaryen and the eldest child of the former king and to add to that Viserys had her declared his heir. The only reason she’s not immediately recognized as the next ruling monarch is because she’s a woman, but her claim is the strongest of the claimants in terms of actual Westerosi inheritance law.

@@Dell-ol6hbNo it isn’t you idiot. He clearly explains in this video that a son comes before a daughter in Westerosi inheritance law.

@@jadeayla7548 - Is Laenor an actual war veteran in the books as he his in the show?

Driftmark?

Absolutely

The show is definitely black-leaning for now i dont know how long it will stay like this or if they are going to switch it up at every season

To be fair to Rhaenyra and Aegon both, they became King/Queen during war time, and brutal war and desperation does absolutely bring out the worst of traits in human beings and rulers. And I think Rhaenyra and Aegon II both experience that moral degrading over time in fire and blood, especially when combined with experiencing the loss of children, followers, betrayals, etc. The kind of suffering that would alter and harden a lot of people even outside of war. I think had either one been able to rule in a time of peace like Viserys, then Rhaenyra and Aegon both would’ve been very different. But I imagine that would also be boring to read. 😂

well it's fair to assume that rhaenyra went crazy after loosing 4 children ( if you count baby visenya )

@mybeloved4231 agreed for sure.. I'm just going off of the story fire and blood where Martin writes how they were both terrible . I loved Fire and Blood and Dance of the Dragons was one of the most interesting time periods.

The only good ruler in the Dance of the Dragons was Gaemon Palehair.

The last great council affirmed that the heir of the last named heir took precedence over the line of anyone who was skipped over when the heir was named. The great council could easily be used to say that Rhaenyra must inherit. The real clincher though is a law passed by Jaehaerys and Alyssane which stated that no one has the right to disinherit the children of his first wife in order to allow a child of a second wife to inherit instead. If Aegon II and Rhaenyra had the same mother then Aegon would obviously inherit before Rhaenyra, but The Old King's laws made it clear that Aemma's line must always take priority over Alicent's.

JACE DOESNT EVEN KNOW HIGH VALYRIAN PROPERLY LOL it’s so plainly obvious that their bastards, it was only a matter of time before people would have called her out on it.

Aegon is no rapist in the books.

@@louthebot6684 I mean being a targ doesnt really automically mean that you know high valyrian... anybody can learn high valyrian if they have money, scrolls, books, and tutors who specialize in the culture and language

You hate the more kind and decent young men just because they’re bastards. They didn’t choose to be unlike Aegon and Aemond who were rapist, drunk, violent, and psychopaths. Let’s list the BAD things they did and Alicunt’s sons takes the prize. And in terms of Aemond losing his eye, did you not pay attention to how he was holding a rock to smash Jace’s head in? Should Luke just stay and watch his brother getting murdered by his much bigger uncle who mocked his father and Laena’s death? You’re a fool. Too blinded by the greens to actually acknowledge their bad actions. 🤡

@@louthebot6684 You’re being petty and nitpicking just to justify your biased hatred. But does Aegon and Aemond know proper high valyrian? atleast Jace and Luke showed soooo much character of a good future ruler compared to Alicunt’s sons and that you can’t deny.

Tradition plays the role of law in feudalist society. What you are arguing is that it is unfortunate that there is any "law" however bad, and that the will of previous monarch should be the law instead, thus you are arguing for the transition to absolutism. Also she is not morally superior, her morally bad decisions will just come later. In the books they are clear. Anyway, concept of "rightful heir" is monarchist bullsh*t

@@KateeAngel like is was saying, Rhaenyra is morally more suited for the role as of now.

She was NOT more suited better for the role. The King only wanted her to rule to spite Daemon and prevent him from ruling. There is no such thing as a "moral" right to rule, anyway.

@@misssoso5859 yeah she was

@@dippy8053 Mothering 3 bastard children, neglecting the duties of your status and feminine position, whoring around, acting like a spoiled cnt, neglecting authority and so on are not the characteristics of a ''morally'' suited contender. By her standards she's not even worthy of being a princess. This is a fantasy show, but women like her would've been the type to meet the axe in medieval times.

It's not sure if Maegor was the one to have killed Aenys. Actually it's not sure if Aenys was even killed in the first place. It's all assumptions based on the circumstances. Aenys was actually getting better under Visenya's care before he ultimately succumbed to his illness. Or at least that's what I remember from the books.

Maegor didnt kill Aenys. He either died of natural causes, or was killed by Visenya to put her son in the Throne.... Maegor was far away in Pentos doing his thing, and when Aenys died, Visenya flew to Essos to tell him the news and rush him to take the crown. If everything, it's a plot of Visenya to have her son crowned.

Maegor didn’t kill Aenys. You’re probably thinking of how Maegor killed Aenys’s firstborn son Aegon, who was the “rightful” heir.

Power rules all.

You dont0 understand what kingdoms work like.

PREACH🫡 #TEAMGREEN 🐍

Valyrians may have different inheritance laws though

@DavidbarZeus1 no. Aegon Targaryan had an elder sister Visenya. He succeeded his father as the lord of Dragonstone and was the one that became king despite having an elder sister. The Targs followed the same basic succession laws as the lords of westeros.

@@Paul-te6kb Is Aegon being lord because he was a guy or because he married Visenya though? If Visenya had married someone else, would things be different? We don’t know enough about Valyria to say anything for certain

@DavidbarZeus1 Again false. Visenya was in no way seen as more powerful than Aegon. When Aegon died his eldest son by his 2nd sister wife Rhaenys (who was younger than him) inherited both westeros and dragonstone and Visenya's son Meagor inherited nothing. Visenya being elder meant nothing in the line of Succession.

Aegon 2 was a piece of shit, Westerosi history has him as one of the most disliked Kings for a reason.

@@TheSSBBfan666dude was king during one of the worst wars in the realms history of course he’s not favored amongst the small folk, if given time to reign in a time of peace I believe he would’ve been a competent king based on the council (the very council Vissy T had) he had serving the realm. He’s only ever shown to be irrational when pushed to the limits, he doesn’t fly to dragon stone and burn it after his sons death he lays a trap which speaks to his methods of retaliation and concept of ruler ship

if it makes you feel any better the show is what really happened whilst the books are recollections made by maesters who hated the targaryens, so aegon was digusting and we have yet to see what happens to rhaenyra

​@@TheSSBBfan666He isn't nicknamed The Bitch Queen or Maegor with teets.

ok and? The whole war was pushed because people were not accepting of the idea of Rheynera being ruler. Lot of shit happened as Aegon 2 was one of the worst kings in Westerosi history and Aegon 3 (Rheynera's son) worked a lot to undo his fuck ups@@lindsey7951

Oh it definitely got worse after the Dance, really showed how far you can get if you have the power and/or opportunity to push with, they definitely tried to 'legitimise' Roberts rule with his Targ blood to stop others from getting conquesty ideas and opposing him. Their laws constantly get undermined and tossed out because of the Westerosi tendency for being inherently self serving, selecting loyalty on 1) would this person being in power inconvenience me in some way 2) would I be in danger if this person was in power and can I deal with that sufficiently or not 3) can I profit from supporting or opposing this person The Blackfyre rebellion is probably the best example, Daemon being a bastard and basically entirely exempt from inheritance - let alone the succession of the Iron Throne - became irrelevant the moment it suited his supporters.

After the Dance the throne almost exclusively passed through the male line, from father to son, to brother or to uncle. So I would say the succession law the Greens were fighting for was actually solidified

The law? The faith of the seven believe incest is an abomination. But turn their heads when Valyrians do it. The law is, who's ever in charge says it is.

@@TJ-fe7rr yes Jaehaerys I put it into law using the GC101AC with the help of the great lord of Westeros so it's not purely brute strength as you say. When Viserys I broke it the Dance happened. After the Dance male progeniture was never questioned again.

@@strongsuccessfulweeb1400 the dance happened because of the Hightower's lust for power, nothing to do with Viserys.

@@TJ-fe7rr such grand and intoxicating innocence

No it wouldn't. He didn't want Daemon on the throne for a reason. It also doesn't change the fact that that he would've had sons still.

How would that stop his sons from fighting Rgaenyra?? He should have married Rhaenyra to Aegon like Otto suggested. Very Simple!

I was with until marrying Daemon to Rhaenyra. That doesn't actually fix anything. What Viserys should have done was marry Aegon to Rhaenyra. Or he should not have remarried at all and had sons. Or he should have kept Daemon as heir. Or if he really wanted Rhaenyra he should have made actual legal changes to the succession and passed a law codifying it. There's a lot of things Viserys could have done that would have been smarter

Facts, I want to add an example, In Spain the Catholic kings had a problem with the succession, cause Ferdinand wanted his grandson that was also named Ferdinand to be the heir of Spain, this because he was raised and educated by him so he was gonna be loyal to him and his beliefs, but Isabella clearly refused, saying that they needed to obey the laws if they wanted that the law would be taken seriously, otherwise a Civil war could happen and this was the worst, so they named Charles heir even if they didn't wanna, cause it was the right thing to do, you need to follow the rules of your own game if you want others to respect them as well

There was no succession law for the Targaryens though. Jaehaerys asking for a vote on who the lords wanted does not make a law

Also, Male Primogenitor isn't the norm because people are sexist, it's because child birth is dangerous and a Queen is more likely to die and send the realm into chaos.

@@DavidbarZeus1 That's correct. Which I think was Jaehaerys' big mistake. He should've codified succession into law after the Great Council. But not having a clear cut answer to who is right..is what makes it intriguing imo. It makes you choose one side or the other based on your worldview. Personally what turns me off the from the Black claim is the arbitrariness of leaving everything up to the wish of the monarch. It's a recipe for discontent and disaster imo.

@@merrittfigure2924 Fair enough, though one Black here has been putting forward the argument that Rhaenyra WAS the lawful heir thanks to a law passed by Jaehaerys.

You talk about the show, it's very different in the books. In the show they are completely team black, trying to create a new Daenerys, even giving an aspect of divine choice to Rhaenyra. Which doesn't exist in the books, she didn't even fight for her right even though she was a dragon rider, Aegon II did, just like Aegon the Conqueror did to conquer Westeros.

@@kgbfelipesilveira1 The buuks are gossips biased against Rheanyra, the show is canon.

@@yusufraage8554 Canon for HBO shows, not A Song of Ice and Fire, which is what really matters.

@@kgbfelipesilveira1 The books are supposed to be from the MAESTERS point of view and the maesters are biased for the Greens given the Oldtown connection. The show is supposed to show the more accurate interpretation of the things that happened. Like Aemond in the books viciously wanted to kill Luke but as we saw from the show it was an accident and Aemond was remorseful for taking things too far.

@@RasSimba The show is not canon to the books that make up A Song of Ice and Fire, but rather to the show Game of Thrones and other future HBO shows. That's what I'm talking about. The show changes a lot of things from the canon of the books, like ages and characters that should already be dead. The show version is NOT a version closer to canon when we talk about books, only HBO shows.

Surely that would change it dramatically, as it's then a very different family line rather than a choice between cousins.

Problem is that all the lords and nobles swore that Rhaenyra would be heir and that was never rescinded by Viserys and was made clear that Aegon being born is irrelevant. Rhaenyra making stupid decisions is irrelevant if Viserys never rescinds his decision. So they're all agreeing that they would do this. The fact is that the king of Westeros is supposed to have near unlimited authority unlike the British monarchy. It is hypocritical that Viserys names Rhaenyra as heir when he only became king due to male preference, but he's the king. Jahaerys could have chosen Rhaenys' line to be king, but he let the lords vote on it.

@@andrewli6606 agree completely

Rhaenyra isn't awful ,she never hurt anyone nor bullied anyone

@@niraxlevi9930 Quickly naming a few things that she's done 1: Mariticide 2:Perjury and 3:Incest like if anyone did these things they are fucked.

@@johnnycornflakes8143 you do know the entire family tradition is incest based

@Thomas Eastman She's no better than the man who terrorized every woman in the Red Keep and used his own bastard children to fight in horrible rings. Both are horrible people, but Rhaenyra was the rightful heir.

​@thomaseastman5781Seriously I don't know why so many people look at her like she the next Daenerys. She is more horrible than Daenerys

But the Targaryens aren’t Westerosi, they’re Valyrians and thus have different inheritance laws

But there's a series of established precedence that the laws of succession haven't been followed with the throne since Aenys. Jaehaerys was not the rightful heir, nor was Baelon, nor was Viserys. It's the irony of Otto and others saying 'but the law' when the law hasn't been followed in 80+ years. If the throne has to go to whoever is the rightful heir by the succession laws then it goes to Rhaenys and her line.

@@3MB4R you aren't very bright

@@ChristianAuditore14 Gives no explanation, only an insult. Brilliant.

that’s an obvious one daeron is older so he’s the rightful king

Lets be totally fair here. This is by tradition. Do you know why they held the Council of 101? It was a decision by Jaehaerys after his First Son and Heir died, then he named his younger Son his Heir, and then he died. Lords were already building up their armies (at least Corlys and Daemon) to push their, or their families claim. It was blatant there would be civil war and Jaehaerys never specifically named an heir after Baelon. Had he named one, this might have been totally avoided but he did not, then got sick and called a council to avoid a war already brewing. Viserys named his Heir. There's no if, and or but's there. He had lords swear their allegiance to her. These two situations are very different. The King CHOSE his heir here, where he didn't before. There was no war brewing until Alicent poisoned her kids minds as they grew older. Aegon was expecting his sister to take the crown. The small council only showed their betrayal AFTER the kings death. The Bastards thing is far more obvious in the show than the books. It's ambiguous at best in the books. There's an argument that Aegon's kids with Helaena are actually Aemonds which would make his kids bastards and both Aemond and Aegon would only have bastard heirs. Directly Incestual bastard heirs. In the show you have a decent argument for both the usurping house Targaryen and Velaryon argument. However in the books that's not clear at all. So I guess I'll let you have that, however Usurping isn't a crime, that's how Robert became King and everyone lined up under him. Aegon has more legitimacy only in that he is a Male. The King named his Daughter till the day he died and nobody said shit to him about how they wouldn't play ball till he was dead. Bunch of snakes and leeches. Consider this. If Alicent, The Hand of the King, The north, the Vale and the Riverlands all supported Rhaenyra, because Viserys Named her. If Aegon, Aemond and her family all stood behind her as they should have, what lord would've risen up? What lord in the 7 Kingdoms would've started a civil war when all the claiments are fine with it. If not for the plotting and betrayal of the Greens, there wouldn't have been a civil war. Prior to the council of 101, war was already brewing. It wasn't here. At most you might've had a Greyjoy Rebellion. Which is fine, that happened when Robert Usurped the throne using his right of conquest and valyrian blood generations back. But no civil war.

@@Holy_Discourses For the future please write in paragraphs so I can address points easier in a more coherent form...What's with people these days using the word "Cope" like they understand what it means when they don't. I'm not "coping" I'm just giving you the facts as they exist in this world. 1. 99.9% of the time a King isn't going to pick some random Peasant. So your strawman is wasted. There's literally dozens of family members in most situations one would pick before a stranger. Not gonna give it more than that. 2. I agree. Aegon chose his own heraldry and changed his familial religion in an attempt to add to stability. Keep in mind he didn't stop the tradition of Brother/Sister marriage which also would've improved stability. So it's not like he gave up everything. Future Targaryens still married immediate family against the traditions and religion of Westeros. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. 3. The Council of 101 proves literally nothing. It's simply saying that when GIVEN THE CHOICE. The lords would prefer a male heir over female heir. This is the first and only time they've EVER been given the choice. So I don't see the relevance. Especially since we have the benefit of Hindsight. Which suggests that without the treason of the Green Council, there wouldn't have been a civil war. Only the people who backed Aegons claim went to war with Rhaenyra. If Alicent and Aegon never pushed his claim, there would've been no war. Maybe a lord would've announced his independance and been quickly conquered, but we have no evidence for this. 4. I'm not overblowing the ambiguity. It is VERY gray in the books. There is no certainty to the claims and the majority of the people making those claims are people with their own angle or loyalty. You could make that point about Aegon in the book, I'm not here to argue ambiguity. The council of 101 was to set the record straight on THAT Succession. Not succession in general. Where's your evidence for that? You're incorrect. The king didn't just choose whoever he wanted. His First Son Died, Then he named his Second Son. His second son died and the only people immediately next in line was the daughter of his first son, or the two sons of his second son. Up till this point it was always a First Son and their children who would take the throne. When that was not possible, the Council was called. You're incorrect all around. 5. There is no social contract. You follow what the dragon lord says or he shits fire on your people. That's how it was for most of Targaryen history. It was a system of fear and power not love and loyalty. You're mistaking English lords with Westerosi. English lords could team up and attack the King, he had no dragons. Why do you think nobody ever tried to properly overthrow the Targaryens till after the blackfire rebellions? Dragons, not love and trust. The Mad King wasn't deposed by a large movement. He was deposed by family of the people he killed, who didn't agree with his actions. His murder and burning of people was defended by half the realm don't forget. Your arguments are just falling apart. No war after Roberts Rebellion? The Greyjoys rebelled a few years later and were squished by the the other lords. You know your history? He wasn't chose by the people. He walked in, took the crown and used his Targaryen blood as more a justification for taking the throne than being chosen by the people because of it... 6 .The Civil war happened because of Otto and Alicent. Full stop. If they didn't push Aegons claims, Aegon wouldn't have. Who else would've gone to war over a claimant that didn't see himself as a claimant? If there was a social contract, why didn't all the lords come to the King and tell him they refused to see his Heir as legitimate? Instead half the lords agreed to defend her right and the others kept their mouth shut. If you wanna come out with some facts I'm happy to have this conversation, but you've offered not much to work with.

Aegon was no better, all he did was make bastards too. Yes his was under wraps, hers couldn't her husband was gay. Having kids was her forced upon duty by her father abd as a woman.

@@TheSandwichMonster Dude, it was another 25 years since Rhaenyra was named Heir. Most of the high Lords were dead, and new Lords didn't swear fealty. And it was all before Aegon was born. And Aemond isn't the father of Helaena's kids. Hell, the intro of the show already confirms it, so that's off the wraps already. Viserys was a fool, what a ridiculous decision. Rhaenyra being made the heir to keep Daemon off the Throne was a temporary solution to a still existing problem, until the King got a firstborn son (Aegon II). Then Aegon would've been made Heir, and no Dance (unless Daemon and Rhaenyra commit some Rebellion/Usurping stuff. Viserys naming Rhaenyra Heir basically means he admits his own rule was illegitimate, cause by this logic, Rhaenys should've been Queen

@@thalmoragent9344 It's unfortunately as simple as this. The great Council was needed because the kings DIRECT HEIRS died. Several claimants were building up armies and supporters to fight for their claims if need be. Full stop. This wasn't the case before the Dance of Dragons. The sides and armies were made/raised after the kings death and after Alicent committed treason. If it were not for Alicent/Otto pushing Aegons claim (who didn't want to be king), no dance would have happened. Full stop. There would have been no war if Alicent didn't push Aegons claim and Aegon didn't agree to it.

Yeah Aegon II would be the king due to male primogeniture laws in Westeros. Rhaenyra was made heir when Viserys thought he would have no more sons, but he remarried and had four more (three of them males). That changed the game, but he refused to change the succession which ultimately cause the dance. If he hadnt remarry and had just Rhaenyra, then marry her to Daemon, they both could have become co-rulers, setting a precedent for females to one day sit on the throne by themselves without such a shock to traditions, laws and people's values/mindsets. Then we have the issue of bastardy which works further to lesser her claim.

Rhaenya's claim is stronger not only based on Viserys making the lords swear an oath to support her as his named heir, but because the Old King Jaehaerys and Good Queen Alyssane had already passed a law which explicitly says that any man who remarried after his wife died is forbidden from disinheriting the children of his first wife in order to give their inheritance to a child of a subsequent wife. Sons may inherit before daughters, but that is only within the line of each wife. Aemma's line must always take priority over Alicent's.

Sad but true

They are not said to be bastards, they are bastards.

Ah no.. The real problem is that Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron were trueborn children. Marrying Helaena to Jace would only make her a hostage. Rhaenyra have to kill the boys. All monarch in history kill other contenders to the throne. King Edward killed his beloved brother, the duke of clarence King Richard supposedly usurped snd killed his nephews Henry VII killed those who claimed tonbe his brother-in-law Queen Mary killed Jayne Grey Queen Elizabeth killed Mary, queen of Scots. Any ruler with two brain cells would have to kill their kin for their own children to inherit.

@@maylynbayani I tots agree. Them living mostly in Dragonstone protected the Strong boys. Having them at court would expose them more and the lords knowing and opposing Rhaenyra for her bastards will surely increase. Helaena marrying Jace not only makes her a hostage by the blacks, it could also divide the green faction. Not to mention Daemon. Lol, no way Daemon will allow the Strong bastards to live long and take the Iron Throne from his trueborn sons with Rhaenyra.

I think the mess could have been prevented if Rheanyra took the opportunity to choose a husband she truly wanted. If she was more patient then she could have just married Harwin Strong or whoever else she fancied or maybe even Daemon after his first wife "died".

By the time Rhaenyra was bethroved to Laenor, Aemond was still already married, it's at the same time that they find Aemond wife has died but they were already set with the marriage.

He never trusted Daemon to be the heir because of his unstable character. He believed his brother would be a tyrant to say the least.

True.

Yeah the whole queen who never was nonsense didn't make sense to me it was laenors claim that was denied

This is why patriarchy was what gave Rhaenyra a claim to the throne, because of his father who is the most patriarch of all patriarchs lol. I'd been arguing that if Westeros was like Dorne, Rhaenyra wouldn't even have a claim because Viserys or maybe even Jaehaerys wouldn't have been king.

@retro nerds yes it was laenor's claim that was denied at the great council but people are still aware of the fact that had rhaenys been a male she would have been king beyond dispute because she was the only child of jahaerys' oldest son. Also alysanne felt she should be jahaerys' heir.

And also rhaenys' claim was brought up at the great council. It was just quickly dismissed along with 8 other claims and the debate really came down to laenor vs. Viserys. But again, had rhaenys been a man, neither laenor nor viserys would have been considered, nor would the Great Council have been initiated.

In a pure legalist sense, you're correct. In reality such rules had been shifted both in medieval lines of succession; the issue is that Rhaenyra made so many bad political decisions that made her succession very easy to co-opt.

Basically rhaenyra would of been the successor

If we are going off that then it would be the greens. They have the Lannisters, Baratheons, Hightowers, and a bunch of other houses in the stormlands and a few in the Reach both before and after the battle at the Honeywine.

I'm not so sure. I think he'd be paranoid. He's shown to be quick tempered and immediately resort to violence at the mere hint of being a Strong. He also tells his brother that the opinions of the Lords of the realm simply don't matter. Those, imo, are quite concerning traits to have. Especially when the rumors of him being a bastard would never actually stop. I don't think there's really any good candidates for being a ruler other than maybe Helaena. I'd say Rhaenys but she carelessly mass murders a bunch of small folk

As a Greeny I am fine with that. As long as no brown haired Strong bastards sits the throne, I am fine. Rhaenyra just needed one, first born, rightful child looking like his father. That's it.

@@redwarrior9100 Im more in team black, but I agree that Strong bastards being king would be unacceptable. Im black for Daemon and Viserys, Rhaenyra messed up big way.

I think Otto's proposed terms to Rhaenyra were foreshadowing through irony in the finale. He proposes for Aegon III and Viserys to be be Aegon II squire and cup bearer, while not knowing that they're going to be the ones to succeed Aegon II.

That is so true . Deamon and otto just interfered with their family and ruin them because they both wanted power

Otto yes. Daemon no

@@michonnewalker4246 Lmao Daemon fanboys are even more delusional than Rhaenyra stans

@@fzzy5739 What do you mean?

Or if Viserys acknowledged Aegon was his heir.

They would be considered as Velaryons until they're crowned as king then they would've been named King Lucerys Targaryen or King Jace Targaryen not King Lucerys Velaryon, King Jace Velaryon

i think that viserys and corlys agreed that any male heir would take the targayen name upon their ascensiom to the throne.

@@yeaaaaa They wouldnt. That's not how dynastic naming goes. They would have become a Velaryon dynasty not a Targaryen one. In Westeros you bear the name of your father's house not that of your mothers (also that in the show is show exclusive).

@@aubreyblack3204 Only in the show. But that's not how it works in real life nor in Westeros. Perception is what matters and all lords in the kingdom would see them as the Velaryon dynasty not the Targaryen. In real life, thats how changes in dynasties have ocurred. That conversation was a loop-hole they didnt think about in the books but that the show needed to address. This further strenghens the claims of Aegon, Aemond and Daeron or even Daemon to claim the throne. They are pure Targaryens not Velaryon (aka changed for convinience to Targaryens).

@@Alejojojo6 i was confused why rhaenyra married laenor knowing her children would be known as velaryons... The show offered a bit of explanation so i went with it

i’d argue it’s more that they didn’t want to rehash the conflict that ruined their lives more than they didn’t believe their mother was the rightful queen

@@patrickulas No, their claim to the throne was through their father Daemon. Maybe they did consider her the true monarch(I don’t think so) but acknowledging her weakens their claim. At the end she isn’t acknowledge and her rule is illegitimate.

@@neneray310 Are you joking? The blacks kept fighting for aegon lll cuz he's the son of their queen and heir not cuz he's daemon son

@@akaza4407 sure they fought for him because they declared for Rheanyra and he was their but many including Cregan Stark acknowledged Aegon II as the king after rheanyra died and Aegon III as his heir. They claimed the throne through male primogeniture and continued to enforce that rule of male primogeniture after.

@@neneray310 As I remember, Aegon II did not make Aegon III his heir, and he and Alicent were against that decision. As for cregan, he did not recognize him as a king, and I remember that he called him "a usurper of the throne"

No she's the first born therefore the throne is hers ,logically speaking but unfortunately the world she lives in isn't ready for a female leader yet but again someone needs to break the cycle or it'll just be going on and on

@@niraxlevi9930 No, Aegon is the rightful heir.

@@niraxlevi9930 Male firstborn offspring always had precedence because when you rule seven kingdoms you need to inspire a sense of authority, respect and fear. Back in those days it was also important for a ruler to act as a warlord if necessary, and women women were not suited to combat while wearing heavy armor and melee. That's how nature works. Why are the alphas in the wolves and lion packs always male... because of what I just said. The ''cycle'' you're referring to is nothing more than a childish dream, one that has unfortunately plagued our world.

@@niraxlevi9930 male primogeniture was law asnper precedent.

@@niraxlevi9930 Not ONCE has an elder Targaryen sister been crowned to the Iron Throne above her younger brother before this point. The ONE time it happened, a Civil War happened... AND she placed 3 bastards in line for the Throne after her. She was already breaking over a Century of Precedence, but she was committing High Treason to the 3rd Degree; Firstly cause of their illegitimacy as bastards cause they can't inherit titles by law Secondly for letting them usurp the main line of House Targaryen Thirdly for letting then usurp the main line of House Velaryon So while both Aegon and Rhaenyra are BOTH poor options, Aegon has more Legitimacy all around.

Pero al reino no le importó.todos apoyaron a raimira

You're also leaving out that Helaena would essentially be a hostage to keep Alicent's sons in line

one of the drafts for Fire and Blood had that happening as well, I think in one she was wed to harwin strong and in another to the Lannister twin she rejects in show; in both vers she had trueborn children and was still usurped by the Greens

It was a bit light on Aegon though. Personality wise it's a clear loss for him, Rhaenyra might be a bit arrogant and she's reckless in her love life, but she doesn't do anything that's particularly bad. Just taboo. Aegon on the other hand is a rapist and shows some cruel tendencies.

lol, none of them are wrong nor right

Jaeherys and viserys both sat in more small council meetings than any other king, Otto isn't the reason for their success. Hell Otto was only the hand of Jaeherys after his second son died at 37 years old...... 😂 Rogar and septor barth served the majority of his reign

Otto wasn't a really a great hand to quote from the book "Otto Hightower in the end was accomplished but ultimately a failure"

For the one true King 💚👑

They're bastards, who haven't been legitimised. True Targaryen's meaning Legit Targaryen's.

@@nonjabulomangoro1871 To me a true Targaryen is the blood of the dragon. Period. All three of Rhaenyra’s kids hatched their dragon eggs. Go argue with the grand maester.

@@alexaheure560 I was just explaining what she meant, relax...

@@nonjabulomangoro1871 lol i said i know they’re not true born. but dragons talk power babe. sounds like a hatin’ ass greenie over here 👈🏽 take up with them old ass maesters in old town!!

It's hilarious because if you actually break it down by numbers, Rhaenyra's sons are 28% Targaryen and 23% Velaryon while Alicent's children are 18% Targaryen and 31% Velaryon - so not only are the 3 boys more Targaryen, their uncles and aunt are more Velaryon than them.

Technically she won she took her throne back and even when aegon killed her and took it back he was killed and her son took over so now rhaenyrs blood continues on the throne not Alicents and her sons

@@frederickpaul2530 Rhaenyra took it from Aegon, but like him she couldn't hold it. Aegon won against Rhaenyra. But the Blacks won against the Greens.

@@juliancain3872 Aegon was on literal life-support. The equivalent is winning your living room from a house plant. If anything, she won Kings Landing from Aemond, who (against his own expectations) turned out to be an utter idiot. Targaryens suffer from main-character syndrome. I cannot believe that Vissy T actual thought that he was the prince that was promised. This guy looked his mediocre and dim self in the mirror, and thought he was the right person to save the world from an unspeakable terror. Guy wasn't even a dragon rider anymore at that point. Couldn't lead a raid on a pantry, let alone govern a kingdom. But he though he was going to defeat the long night. He's more delusional than Eminem in a Mariah Carry music video.

@@juliancain3872 I mean with the immense loyalty of the Blacks to Rhaenyra on the book? No wonder.

🧢🧢🧢

Sorry, but a tradition that has only been applied, what, all of ONE time isn't an actual tradition.