John, thank you so much for this conversation! I learned about IFS about 8 years ago but only found it useful in the past month! Yet I found my parts behaving differently than Richard Schwartz described. This is helping me understand my experience so much! I’m also so interested in how all of this appears to overlap with Iain McGilchrist’s hemisphere model! Its as if once the object (propositional and procedural I might add) oriented left hemisphere’s egoic manifestations are seen and understood, they no longer egoicly grasp and one is more free to move into the right hemisphere’s wholistic (perspectival and participatory) openness! This is really amazing! 🙏🙏🙏
It's very encouraging to see yourself and others working with strands of thought parallel to my own. The framework of the hemispheres (much like the John's four P's) has been enormously consequential in mediating my internal conflicts. Thanks for sharing!
WOW! Currently completing my masters in clinical and counselling psychology and this is an absolute gold mine. I can see so many principles of therapeutic attunement aligned across so many different schools of thought here, it is beautiful.
I've been looking forward to hearing John in a conversation with someone who can bring how Eugene Gendlin carried forward Heidegger's work, Gendlin's contributions concerning coming alive to and carrying forward the embodied felt sense. Delighted by the depth and enthusiasm of John's response as well as how how much Steve March had to share. I look forward to exploring Steve's work and to hearing future conversations between them.
Doesn’t seem like something positive... are you doing that for ‘the algorithm’, because you like John or maybe because you know the conversation will bring meaning to others? Seems to be something that can only be based on self-deception... This is one of the big problems with the current like-mania and it is creating a whole lot of confused people... (don’t even getting into the love, making love and being in love deception....)
wow this is very much my vibe thank you both! I was loudly and fully taking part in this conversation, my neighbors probably think I'm insane. he he. This is so weird, my book has similar language and I wrote it about 10 years ago. this is so interesting. it is as if you read it. And then there's my work which not many have seen , I even have a model for this and am continuously developing it and understanding it and I am trying to find the most productive ways through which I can explain and teach. I feel aligned with where you're at, I am understanding almost everything comfortably so Im slightly adjusting myself to absorb more, like a humility stance. I can almost anticipate a spike in fluency coming soon, so I am identifying with that but placing it in periphery for now, and am using certain faculties to maintain focus on fore ground placement of concentration and open communication whilst also keeping my core functioning stable and my awareness radar is specifically set to a prepared dynamic in order to interpret but also relate and relay and incorporate play at the same time developing a picture in the darkroom carefully but preportionately whilst keeping space open for vision and skill to come together to produce more pixels and embedded information and pieces of intuition. I sense a point of expansion and projection on its way which is a place in which i can really move and explore and develop and edit in a way that i can come back through into my regular structure to place new pieces in their relevant spaces to form a deeper picture that has certain features to it as well and has rich and beautiful potential framework that moves continuously and naturally, making sense to both inner and outer senses. I am currently in a lived experience wow
I am very excited about this discussion! I am deeply curious about the differences between self-improvement and self-unfoldment. I also wonder about the external and internal value judgements likely associated with these two notions. Excited to get to the bottom of the difference!
Wonderful to see you two together. 😍😍 I use both of your work all the time in my teaching, facilitation, coaching. Steve's syncretic work is really great. IFS, Almaas, Gendlin.. Bringing that together with 4P 3R thinking is so helpful. Depth of presence in the moment creates the inner spaciousness for conscious 3R, integrating multiple intelligences, complexification.
this is pretty mind blowing, and inspiring ... and shows how far away we are yet between our frequently rational brutality with language and the level of sensitivity and open exploration we need to get in tune with our emotional selves ... and often reinforces why i can't dialogue at all with certain people !! haha , thank you
Interesting to see how many similarities there are to the Diamond Appraoch work originated by A.H. Almaas here--no doubt reality dispalying what is needed here and now from many locations. Some of the common understandings include: object relations, the softening of personality structures ("parts") in the encounter with presence, the many distinct qualities of presence ("virtues") that emerge in process to transform and illuminate and the profound step of being those qualities of presence beyond simply experiencing them.
Really interesting topic! I'd personally want to crack the mechanism between feeling fragmented and integrated. I always sense the difference but especially when feeling fragmention I seem to lose my sense of wholeness and therefore feel very blind and confused. It's such a bizarre state of being, surreal. For the moments of integration I totally live for! 😄
John I saw that you criticized Schwartz's conception of self in dia-logos conversation at the conference. I would like to know more details. Maybe I didn't saw some content where you talked more about it. If you would point to it then that would be great. It was nice synchronicity for me. Becouse I discovered IFS independently today and then turned on random video with you that popped up and the first topic was IFS. :D I did quick research that directed me here. :) Great conversation with Steve! It's good to known that there are people that go deep into spirituality without all kinds of bullshit and instead show practical application and clear roadmap. I will consume follow up discussions with him when I find a time for sure. I have also another thing I would like to point out about IFS and parts. Richard was probably inspired by Jung, if I don't mistaken you said something about it between the lines. My understanding of IFS is shallow and my view on the whole idea might be distorded but from descriptions and book fragments I recognized some interesting connections. What stricked me in IFS is the similarity in meanings and mechanisms between his parts and jungian congnitive functions. Although his approach is oriented towards affective and emotional dimentions and jungian functions ( the conceptualization of them that I saw) take more cognitive approach to psyche. In that case his "self' would be represent dominant function, auxiliary functions would be protectors and inferior function would be the exile one. If we look in that way then a lof of things can be answered. There is more connections and related interpretations but I will stop here. I know that idea of jungian functions and personality types that emerged from theory are not popular in scientific community. Also actually besides Dario Nardi I don't know people who take serious approach for providing reasonable explanations or at least do respectable study on them. But I actually see many parallels between cog sci concepts and meanings encoded into functions. Whole construct is based on complementary opposite cognitive processes just like in RR :) and combination of functions pairs looks exactly like dichotomy of resilience and efficacy which is presented in RR or can be found in big 5 as meta traits. I find a lot points of convergence. I only regret that I don't have anyone to discuss this on proper level. I don't know if you even read this but either way. I wish you have a nice day/night. :) ✌️
This is amazing and so inspiring! I am wondering now the overlaps with both mindfulness meditation and Christian mysticism. As soon as he talked about depth, he got my full attention! ...in my understanding Jesus lived from such depths where nobody could follow him, therefore the World hated him - but he could not hate them back...
I find this talk amazing, and I am shocked and surprised but also excited to see how much of this overlaps with 2 things: the process of doing the 12 steps, and also the work of Philip Shepherd (New Self New World, Radical Wholeness). I would love a conversation about this one time.
After looking over the Aletheia curriculum, I am excited about this conversation. However, I am noticing a growing tension within myself. I just completed my first year of MA in Clinical Mental Health Counseling. I wonder if I can bring something like this to a clinical setting? I am interested in further studying IFS and Somatic Experiencing as I believe in the two modalities. This inner tension has its roots uncertainty, and sure I realize I can course-correct at any time. Thank you, John and Steve!
I work in health care. It's worth considering that John distinguishes between propositional and perspectival and procedural and participatory knowing although not necessarily as discrete and independent processes and there is overlap. This (in my opinion, not necessarily his) begets different learning modalities such as practices, frameworks, and strategies (do I do, do I contemplate conceptually, do I consider perceptually as rough differences) with a purpose of improving well being. Clinical engagement is less about sage from the stage and picking the right or only one course/practice for others and more a guide by the side and offering what you can avail them of from your position (you lift the weight for them you get strong they stay weak). So it isn't a case of either/or, tensioning, so much as and/or, realising. A psychologist can offer that a client goes for a walk as much as a physical therapist can offer a CBT framework. If professionals gave discrete content without context for a client then the client would have a dis-integrated view point offered. . Hope that helps
Hi Corey, we have had several therapists come through Aletheia and integrate it into their work. We have a seamless way of flowing between different depths in ways that other methods haven’t incorporated yet.
The short answer is yes you can apply this method in a clinical context. Many people are taking an eclectic approach with multiple methods. I make the distinction between an eclectic approach and an integrated approach. What we are doing in Aletheia is integrated, which allows for a seamless and rapid flow between these depths. The eclectic approach can be cumbersome because the shifts can happen so quickly.
@@stevemarch Thank you for your response! I am super excited and will definitely keep this in mind. I didn't articulate my thoughts entirely; however, yes, that is what I am looking for in an integrated approach in a clinical setting. Utilizing a lot of the modalities you are teaching.
Yes yes yes! 43:00 bringing Nishitani into it. 100%!!! No-thingness allows for the deep realization of every-thingness and vice versa. The utter interrelatedness and process-nature of being/non-being. You’ve languaged this so beautifully!!! Thank you 🙏🏽❤️
While you’re at it John, mapping your cognitive map onto these levels of depth, how’s about throwing in a mapping of Dependent Origination…????? Kinda falls along similar lines….????? 😜 I’ve somehow got it intuitively but can’t language it. 🤯 (Leaving the whole rebirth issue aside)
@@alexandrazachary.musician Taking a cue from Buddhist philosophy, we introduce dependent origination alongside emptiness in the 2nd of 4 approaches to Nondual Work that we practice in Aletheia. This approach is an affirming negation where the existence of the separate self is negated (found to be empty of self) while dependent origination is affirmed. I'm curious about how to map 4E/3R to the depths too. I think John and I will cover that in a future conversation.
@@stevemarch I’ve been pestering him about it for a while now. I have a very happy and deep appreciation of D.O. and I know that it can fit into UToK and John’s stuff.
During the description of parts and process 'layers' I couldn't help but compare it to human organizations. It's not novel to compare an organization to a person, but the analogy of parts as departments and teams, how to soften them by making them feel seen and valued, thus enabling a dialogos at a deeper level of process was too apt for me to ignore. I'm curious how well this self-unfoldment framing maps onto hierarchal human organizations in general.
Yes, we have a method of doing Group Parts Work, Group Process Work, and Group Presence Work in Aletheia. There is a natural flow between working with the personal system and the group system.
