He is not really a pushover though He is willing to kill a child, which she hates, in order to save his people He doesn’t tap, no matter how many times you tell him to in the battle
@@Leo_Dragontamer In a sense he is because he is sacrificing his marriage and principals to stasify the mob that is his subjects. As one famous fan adaption put it, "the people underground are screaming there is no way up."
I think he struggled to give hope to the monsters but also didn’t want to hurt anyone and maybe delayed having to kill the kids as much as possible. I believe nobody made it to asgore except you, the last soul. The others died throughout the underground.
I actually like the Idea that Frisk is "Nothing special", because then it sorta transforms the narrative a little, and gives another message to the player that anyone, any place, can affect great change and goodness in people, and that you don't have to be special to do that. I think it's a wonderful message.
I would argue that, even if the power of saving and loading were tied to us specifically as an entity, that doesn't mean Frisk is nothing special. I mean taking Kris as a reference either we are tied together in a way we can't live without the other or we are tied in a way where while is true "we" are the ones with the power Frisk is the only one capable to translate that power into.physical (ergo meaningful) actions, even the line of "I won't be broken" may suggest that the act of re-attaching their soul is something Frisk is doing on their own without us having a say in the matter (because in other instances we are the ones who are choosing if we give up or not) so at the very least Frisk is strong enough to choose to not give up even if we wanted to which is consequent with the fact they are able to face other entity at our level, I mean Flowey :v
I also like it because it gives deltarune more significance. In undertale we have the possibilities for so many endings due to the power of the player, but we see in deltarune that kris can act without our control. So maybe while undertale was about giving the player more power over the game world than most games, deltarune is about revoking that power more than what other games do by making the main character more autonomous
Yeah, I agree. Personally though, I think Frisk already had plenty of determination in their own right as displayed during the Asriel fight. They probably just needed some help finding a way to focus that determination, which is where the players and our determination come in. You could say that the end result of Undertale comes about due to our determination resonating with Frisk’s own natural determination.
HC that Kris's full name is Krismas Dreemurr. Rudy named them because he didnt want the Dreemurs naming them "Torgore." It anagrams to "A murderer smirks"
confirming that the wordsearch was created by a monster in the library seems to deconfirm a common theory that the wordsearch comes from deltarune and belongs to sans
31:44 I think when he says that Asgore is 'not good at being a king' he's not talking abt his leadership skills, because Asgore is obviously a decent leader. He's referring to the fact that Asgore is consistently friendly with all other monsters and doesn't really take his hierarchical role seriously, and i think that plays into how he addresses Frisk so informally in both languages (he uses ‘kimi’ for ‘you’ in jp which is overly friendly it’s like he called you ‘buddy’ (it’s also the one flowey uses so that may line up with them both using ‘howdy’ or smth like that)) I think that’s a p decent characterization of Asgore. He'd halt a project that would benefit the whole underground if one person objected. He's too nice and friendly. Or, to put it simpler, he's way too much of a dad to be cruel enough to properly be a king
About Asriel's fight, i wanna add a few personal thoughts 'cuz i always loved that part so much. When Chara awakens at the end of Genocide it is heavily implied by everything they say that they are talking to you player rather than Frisk. And they say "Your Power awakened me from death". Notice how six humans fell before and none of them awakened Chara? You have a power that differs from the specific random kid you're playing as, which we know basically nothing about. The Player having a much stronger and godlike power that affects Frisk throughout the whole game is inspired by Earthbound. (spoilers if you don't know about Gyigas' Fight and the player's role in Earthbound) Ness &co cannot defeat Gyigas by themselves, even when everyone on Earth starts praying, and they do like 1700HP damage max. However when Paula prays again, she reaches out to the Player (with your own name, different from Ness) and your simple praying deals Gyigas multiple attacks of over 24K damage. This is made to seen even more evident in Deltarune where you can choose your own name different from Kris and every single save point has a joke on the word "Power". Culminating in boss fights where it says "Your SOUL shined its power" or the sealing of dark fountains, where the SOUL seals it snd the music track is called Your Power. Anyway stuff like this is why i personally love the idea of the Angel being the Player, which is the base from which me and my bf wrote the Oblivion Theory (the Vessel being your True Character like Chara was in UT and it being the Knight, darkness being an experiment with the player etc etc). In general, to the organic world of UTDR, you are something incomprehensible, divine, outside their world and watching over everything from above. "An anomaly". As Flowey tells you, you have "The power to reshape the world simply by your own determination. The ability to play God." Which is why Asriel has to accept that he couldn't have won no matter how much he wanted. "Let the Angel's Power Light your way".
Well of course they don't speak to Frisk, they are Frisk. Chara outright mentions that they have been reincarnated. The player shows them the purpose of it, through violence returning Chara to what they were and pacifism showing Chara there is hope for humans allowing them to move on as Frisk.
@@Buglin_Burger7878as much as i'd love for this to be true/it being a cool idea there's so much that implies it isn't. (Example why does Chara get their original body at the end of Geno?) But if it is I won't complain
42:20 "You tell ASGORE he's killed you X times before. He nods [sadly/grievously/pitifully]." So Asgore at least aware of determination and ability to reset. He could have learned this from Alphys, or from previous people who fell into the underground.
@@Theserperiortrainer497 If it was only from Flowey then why would he expect it from a human? Remember, Flowey's determination, which is what he uses to reload, is sourced /directly/ from the other human souls. Flowey is relatively young too, there's irrefutable evidence that he wasn't created until most if not all the other humans were already dead.
@@Theserperiortrainer497Flowey explicitly _doesn't_ keep any timeline where he talked to Asgore, as the genocide route always has Asgore not recognizing Flowey whatsoever, meaning they never spoke.
@@Vakothu yes but first why would second I have he remembers flowey specifically more the general deja vu like toriel with your pie flavour. Also the human thing means nothing because he had no reason to think it was limited
I think Frisk may have started off as someone more or less just along for the ride, but as the game when, their own determination grew, resulting in them being able to just say "No" to the power of a God killing them at the end of the pacifist route.
Frisk even started to befriend and love the monsters, frisk was happy in the true pacifist route, as said by flowey, and they even stayed with toriel when we give tell toriel to stay with her, or even visited the monsters and took photos when we told toriel we had places to go, so it's not like frisk hated going along for the ride, every option we have are options frisk is happy with imo, except maybe for geno options, frisk may have given up there and Chara had more control than them, in cutscenes specifically obvs It's also kinda like how Kris befriended Susie even tho they didn't do anything for it, but still grew attached to her, even protected Susie from the King in their own accord, Susie is genuinely Kris' friend
@@DontFeel-xd9lx I never heard of that, I want to see that, anyways if it was when killing her twice and not the first time then that's because killing her is unnecessary, doing a geno more than once is just "...why? Are you crazy???" To Chara and they can't understand why would you do that, killing her the first time was necessary to become stronger, the 2nd time is just confusing, especially when you know you can spare her, and Chara most likely still loves Toriel, their mother, so even more so Chara will object to it
@@DontFeel-xd9lx Honestly it being more than twice actually kinda helps what I said tbh, poor Chara, even if we corrupt them and they became more evil than "lol, we poisoned dad, lmao" If people get mad then let them be, the world of undertale is a mystery and honestly theorizing about undertale and deltarune is fun, especially when you link both worlds in some way (like the player being the soul and we travelling between universes, I believe that, but honestly it would make undertale AUs even more canon than it is rn by deltarune being a canon AU), debates should also be calm and fun, a nice exchange of knowledge and beliefs, so yeah dw about that, I remember for some reason not believe the narrachara theory but I somehow accepted it without realizing, it looks kinda obvious now and fitting to Undertale's meta everything
@@mariotheundying don't remember if every boss has the line in question, but i know toriel and sans have it, since i triggered before. you need to kill the boss monster and load your save to fight them again, in sans case it's funny, since he does his bit about counting how many times he killed you, only for his face sprite to go eyeless while he tells you he doesn't like the face he is seeing and you should stop.
You may be disappointed by the frisk revelations, but I'm having an absolute field day with this, most of my frisk theories have become near canon facts thanks to this, and I'm very glad I havent made that video yet.
Japanese line "I won't be broken" is not the only one instance where narration is refered in first person(and not quoting something). The other ones are narrations when you flee the battle like "I'm outta here." "I've got better to do." and "Don't slow me down.". I don't know if these are same in Japanese translation, but it still an interesting look at Frisk's character. I wish someone would make a very detailed analysis of Frisk's character considering that some people doesn't even consider Frisk a character at all.
Aside from that I think the only things we know about Frisk are that they scared the dummy ghost out of their dummy when you choose the option to "talk", though we don't know what they said, they think "you're a hot baby" is a great pickup line, and they didn't laugh at the Snowy Amalgam when the narrator expected them to.
@@leedlelel2373 Chara's spirit is thought by many to be the narrator (it's you vs. it's me in the mirror, "you didn't laugh?" ect) but the soul is still Frisk's soul, so when the soul itself talks, that could still be Frisk, right?
@@RossOriginals actually, the red soul might be chara's, remember the whole coffin thing, which is now even more backed up by the fact that frisk's bandages were wraps and not patches. Also... im unsure if spirits are even a thing if souls already are in the ut universe, that seems kind of odd.
@@leedlelel2373 or the bandage could have been applied when Toriel healed Frisk after they were attacked by Flowey, it *is* a consumable healing item after all, and there's no evidence Chara's grave was disturbed. I can't remember anyone saying Chara's body was mummified either or if that would even be something monsters would do but still, the bandage being from Chara seems a hell of a stretch. I'm 100% confident in saying it's Frisk's soul -- Chara is "empty" like Flowey, their soul is gone but their essence remained just like Asriel's, and the whole idea that it's not Frisk's soul or that Frisk is just a vessel defeats the purpose of their name being revealed in the pacifist ending or seeing them live on after the end of the game. Aside from anything else, when Frisk looks in the mirror at the end of the game, the narrator says "it's still just you, Frisk", it's only on a genocidal run that we get "It's me, Chara/the name we gave Chara", otherwise the only person addressed by that name is us, the player, when Flowey asks us not to interfere with Frisk's happy ending. Chara also states it's "your human soul" that awakens them, in this case talking to the player, but still suggesting they themselves do not have a soul. I know that leaves the question of how Frisk leaves the underground on a neutral run, but there's other possibilities there -- maybe the other human souls did something that allowed them to leave, or maybe they don't leave, for all we know they might have been vapourised by the barrier and that's why they don't answer the phone at the end, or maybe it's the presence of us, the player, that lets them leave, that's up for speculation, but there's no concrete answer. I like to think that Chara is given peace in some way in the pacifist ending, much like Flowey, shown compassion through someone else's soul, but I'm aware that's purely what I'd like to happen, not anything that's based on canon, but all we know for sure is that Frisk, Chara, and the player (us) are three separate entities, and that most evidence points to the soul belonging to Frisk and Chara being "empty", as Flowey puts it.
Flowey only loses his ability to save once Frisk falls to the Underground, so it's clear that the ability to save is tied to the Underground itself. Either that, or it's tied to the player.
I think it's tied to the Underground itself. My own theory is Gaster's experiments (before his last one) caused the Underground to have this weird quality where whomever has the largest amount of Determination can change the fate of this world.
It's probably tied to the player. We are able to reset after leaving the underground, and I don't think it would make much sense for Frisk to run back to the underground when we press the reset button for the game to actually reset
The thing about chara wanting to end their life is still potentially true. As Asriel explains, its the climbing of mount ebott itself that shows cause for concern, and that Chara had a reason they didn't like to talk about. The fall being unintentional doesn't mean they weren't there for sad reasons.
Sans almost definetly does prank calls. Alternatively and plausibly, he called Toriel's other phone when her primary was unresponsive after the confrontation with Frisk.
One thing that I find super interesting -- that obviously couldn't be covered in this book since it's Unused Content™ -- is Entry 17. So, obviously, there's no direct Wingdings equivalent in Japanese. It hypothetically could be turned into emoji, or a brand new cipher could have been created to map Wingdings to a katakana/hiragana syllabary, but the localizers didn't go this route. However, they *did* still translate it, rather than leaving it the original English. How they did it was by using a Romaji transcription of the Japanese translation -- for example, writing out KURAKU for "darker" -- and then using the Wingdings typeface over *that*. The terminology used in Entry 17 is fascinating too -- for "interesting", it uses "KYOMI BUKAI". Note the space -- it could just have been translated as "kyomibukai", meaning "of great interest", but the extra space makes me wonder if "bukai" might be a bit of wordplay, because it on its own could be written as 部会, which could indicate that this is taking place at a sort of meeting. If Gaster is indeed another skeleton, it wouldn't surprise me if he had a bit of a funny bone of his own and decided to offer a bit of a coy pun, despite his otherwise infallible formality. What I find interesting (very, very interesting) is that the Voice in Deltarune's intro does *not* use Romaji at all. Instead, for the majority of the intro, it uses a very strange and completely unique mix of katakana (which is *normally* reserved for loanwords) and kanji. This is admittedly somewhat reminiscent of the strangeness of Entry 17's translation, but the fact that it's different is still noteworthy. Additionally, it uses the second-person pronoun "anata" to refer to the Player, in a sort of way that indicates friendly workplace formality from a boss to a subordinate. (It can also be used between married couples as something reminiscent of "darling", but the rest of his speech doesn't seem to indicate that sort of closeness.) For the end, though, right where the vessel is discarded, it abruptly switches to a more typical hiragana/kanji mix. What's *not* so typical is that this second manner of speech uses patterns that line up with the Fallen Child, using "omae" and other uncomfortably, almost threateningly informal words. With how thoroughly everything else of major importance is thought through in localization, I can't help but wonder what precisely is being implied here.
Ive seen halfbreadchaos' take on the vessel scene you're talking about and they indeed theorized on the sudden switch of the blue background to a black background without shaky text, meaning that it could be someone else interrupting the sequence, and not the same person or entity that was just asking for your choices
its interesting to note that this isn't the only piece of unused content that was translated, the echo flower dialogue in the ballet shoes room also was translated despite being unused
I think Frisk being "along for the ride" makes them more interesting. Look at their iconic overworld sprite, look how the reaction image changes in No Mercy, they don't mention a home to go back to in Pacifist and "you tell the quiche you'll be right back". They are an actual nobody. They're under your control, barely any signs of proper resistance and only have agency in how they perform acts but with go on the road to a happy ending (i don't think they're alive in neutral) they actually care now ("No i won't be broken!" goes hard.) And can live their own life with people who love them. With this mindset comparisons to Kris are much more interesting than "both of their lives are getting highjacked." Tldr. Frisk and Player's relationship is a carer to child in RPG protagonist form deconstructed, played straight and reconstructed. I'm becoming a god damn theorist...
after chapter 2 came out i heard someone make a joke about how frisk is basically in the same position as kris but they dont really care to rebel against us cause theyre like 5 lol
Also, an interesting thing that nobody really talks about is Frisk's action in the True Lab. When you go up to the amalgamate having a shower, Frisk slows down. They still walk towards the shower, but they're scared. So, we know two things about them. They do things, despite being afraid, and they will not be broken.
i would like to emphasize the "No! I won't be broken!" is remistranslated from いや。こわれるもんか。 if you note the word "I" is actually not used in that sentence. so it's more like "Won't be broken"
The statement “Fallen down was partially cut content” is not meant to imply that it was a battle mechanic. It is in reference to an unused script was meant to be “Monster History Part 6”, presumably in the library, which was cut from the release. The script for Monster History Part 6 is as follows: * (It's a book labelled Monster History Part 6.) Read it Do not * Unfortunately, monsters are not experienced with illness. * However, when monsters are about to expire of age, they lie down, immobile. * We call this state "Fallen Down." * A person who has Fallen Down will soon perish. * In a way, this confusing situation was all too familiar. This explanation was cut from the game, but presumably remains canonical as the phrase “fallen down” is still referenced. Thus, why it’s referred to as “partial cut content.”
Kris having 00:00 in their Save File might just mean they never went to a Dark World before, since saving in Deltarune is only possible in Dark Worlds.
Funny things, partially discovered by other undertale theorists 1) Playtime counts while you in the light world, so it's not the case 2) You actually could save in the light world with debug mode, AND it will save you as Kris, bc your name isn't present in light world at all. So you can save, you just can't find save points, or couldn't see them because you are not the one with most determination
@@user-zl8gz4ct2j I don't think cheating really counts, that would only be considered as real when the game gives you the option to save in the light world
Somewhere in Japan, an Undertale theorist is discussing his dark theory he formed about Rabbicks after learning that they're described as "dust bunnies" in the original english version of the game.
Regarding the part about the other humans not being able to save and load, I have some evidence against it. For one, Toriel says whenever a human falls down, they seem familiar, like an old friend, and in Asgore’s fight, if you say he already killed you, he doesn’t seem phased at all and just nods, like it’s happened multiple times before. However, if the other humans can save, this provoked an interesting question; Who’s helping them save? Chara? Another player? That weird demon character from the code?
Something I didn’t get was that how Flowey came into being is that he was the first flower that grew on the spot that Asriel died, and Alphys injected the flower with tons of DT to see what would happen, and this created Flowey. But what I don’t understand is that in between the time Asriel and Chara died, (relatively the same time) six humans of different souls fell into the underground and left some of their stuff around the underground, and somehow had the ability to reset and save and load, which means that for each one that fell in, they would have the most amount of DT, and then eventually they would stop coming back which is equivalent to dying for those who can save and load, and eventually another human came and did the same thing. So, when did Flowey get that ability? Also, it’s implied that monsters age the same amount that humans do unless it’s a boss monster like Asgore and Toriel, so if Alphys injected it like, after a year or two of Asriel and Chara dying, then why is she in her like, mid-20s to early 30’s when we meet her? Unless, the flower sprouted like, 80+ years after Asriel and Chara died, and then Alphys injected it then, which would probably make more sense, it couldn’t have been sitting there for 80-ish years because we know that Undertale takes place in the future, probably around 80-100 years after 201X, and Buttercups certainly don’t stay alive that long, they sprout and then go away and then if you replant them they return, I think. I feel like the timeline goes, Asriel and Chara die on a bed of buttercup flowers, Asriel’s dust falls onto one spot, where a flower will eventually bloom one day. (A book in the Librarby says that a monster’s essence is said to live on if you spread its dust onto something it loved when alive.) Eventually six humans fell underground and for each one for a short while they had the ability to save and load, but eventually they couldn’t get past Asgore and gave up, and stopped coming back, allowing time to continue forwards slowly. After the sixth human finally gave up, Alphys did some experiments on human souls, and injected a lot of DT into some monsters, and a flower from the flowerbed where Asriel died, which eventually became Flowey, as it was planted back after nothing noticeable happened to it, and Flowey which had the memories of Asriel was the new being with the most amount of DT in the Undertale universe, basically. Also for some reason, Frisk was still not determined enough to reset, all until we showed up, (the player.) and our DT somehow surpassed that of Flowey.
@@T0B3573R " So, when did Flowey get that ability?" When he was (re)born. So long after the 6 humans died. " Also, it’s implied that monsters age the same amount that humans do " It's not implied anywhere, in fact we know that Gerson was alive during the war. There also Napstablook, who mentions that their best customer (which was probably Toriel) disappeared one day, and the Dogi, who finished 2nd in the "Nose Nuzzle Championship '98,", they lost against Toriel and Asgore. "so if Alphys injected it like, after a year or two of Asriel and Chara dying" Where do you even get that idea from? Alphys was only recently named Royal Scientist. "Unless, the flower sprouted like, 80+ years after Asriel and Chara died" Again, where do you get that idea from? The fact that Alphys know that it's the first flower who grew up after Toriel goes missing doesn't mean that she was there back then. Asgore could have tell her. " it couldn’t have been sitting there for 80-ish years because we know that Undertale takes place in the future, probably around 80-100 years after 201X, and Buttercups certainly don’t stay alive that long" Flowey is a Golden Flower, not a buttercup, they are not the same things. "Asriel and Chara die on a bed of buttercup flowers" Asriel died on Asgore garden, we don't know if they were any buttercups there (and i don't see your point?). The only thing we know, is that a Golden Flower grew up there (there were probably seeds of golden flowen stuck on Chara body) after that. "Also for some reason, Frisk was still not determined enough to reset, all until we showed up, (the player.) and our DT somehow surpassed that of Flowey." You forget something, save seems to be for some reason, linked to the Underground.
@@T0B3573R Remember that there may have been a previous Royal Scientist, and that DT injections first came as an idea dependent on an actual human SOUL, iirc.
I think that being a bad king reffers to Asgore's pushover nature, so much so even Papyrus acknowledges him as such. Toby Fox despite probably not being favourable of monarchs thinks that a "Good King" is decisive and effective.
39:34 Personally, I interpret this quote as more or less "Frisk can't SAVE/LOAD on their own" and more, "The player has more determination than Frisk, so they have the power to SAVE/LOAD and not Frisk." Also, I dont even think it's a theory that the other humans had the power to SAVE/LOAD. Like, after a reset, Toriel's dialogue when she asks for Frisk for their preferred pie kind of confirms that at least some of the past humans had the power to SAVE/LOAD/RESET, as it matches Toriel "somehow already knowing Frisk's preferred pie." (Then there's the omega Flowey fight giving Flowey multiple save files for every soul they have. Seeing as these SOULS gave Flowey multiple save files I feel like its pretty strong evidence for the past humans having the power to SAVE/LOAD. Even if their not as determined as Frisk they'd still be more determined than any monster.) Could also go into the implications of the actual save folder, (especially seeing as a new file is created when Flowey gets all the SOULs) but I do admit theorizing with game files is risky though I feel like this example at least hints to some bits of the canon/how saving/loading works. To me though the previous humans having the power to save/load doesn't really take away from Frisk's. They eventually gave up after all, and it is established that's a way to defeat humans with the power to SAVE/LOAD (sans himself tries this in the no mercy route) so I would argue that Frisk/the player are more determined than those past humans. and again as you've mentioned this is a quote from Mandelin and not a direct quote from Toby, which makes it less solid then some of the other quotes in the book.
It's absolutely the player who is more determined then the past humans, not Frisk. The player doesn't have to suffer the pain of having their soul burned, impaled, battered, and otherwise brutalized in fights because unlike the rest of the humans, we're not directly part of the world. The human mind can only withstand so much pain before it gives up and does anything to avoid more pain, this is why torture is unreliable to get information.
@Vakothu The thing I was clarifying is Jaur seemed to interpret the quote as, "Without the player, Frisk would not have the power to save/load." when I think Frisk would have that power, its just the player who controls the timeline currently.
@@Vakothu determination list probably goes like: Asriel/Omega Flowey (overwrites your save control) > Player (has the most determination for the majority of the game) ~ Chara (feeds off your determination and removes your ability to reset) > Amalgamates (Have enough determination to be unable to die, unlike Flowey, but likely don’t excel in anything else to have control of the timeline, can still be erased via Chara) > Flowey (less determination quantity than the amalgamates, much higher will to live, and therefore control over the timeline. Likely didn’t exist until 6 humans died) > All other humans
I love “I won’t be broken” so much because it still retains a double meaning!! Frisk’s soul denies the possibility of breaking, just like the re-fusing meaning, but it also refers to how Frisk’s spirit won’t be broken, just like the refusing meaning. Does this book have an audio version???
Thought: Maybe Kris has no playtime on their SAVE file has some significance to their character outside of the implication they don't have the determination to SAVE and LOAD. It is implied frequently that they have had a rather downcast existence up to this point, with the breakup of their family and the bad things that have been suggested to have happened to them in the past. Many people have read them as being depressed. Maybe the fact that they have no playtime on their SAVE is a metaphor for the idea that until this point they have never truly 'lived' their life. That idea could also tie into the themes of puppetry; Kris has spent much of their life with no agency over the things that have happened to them, with their conversion into a vessel for a player of a videogame symbolising the epitome of that loss of control over their own life. If they have never controlled their life, or 'played the game' then it would make sense that their playtime is zero - they do not have any of their own life to save. And maybe, if not having nothing literally to save, then maybe it's a reflection of their own view of their life - that there is nothing worthy of 'saving' in it. Every reading here is a sad one, but it's interesting to think about from a character standpoint.
It’s not an Undertale book; it’s a book series about game localization, which happens to exclusively feature Undertale in volume 3 And he didn’t exactly ‘uncover’ this either- its a commercially available book that received loads of attention from the fandom lol
Thing to keep in mind with Napstablook: Japanese doesn't have a specific pronoun for nonbinary identities, so leaving their gender unstated in translation was most likely the easiest way to properly respect their identity. I think it's a little disrespectful to say Napstablook's gender is up to interpretation bc they're their own character, not like Frisk who can kind of be argued to have whatever identity the player has, and nonbinary people aren't just blank slates for anyone to map your own idea of what their gender should be onto them
I agree with Napstablook, although I’d say that Frisk’s gender being unimportant is half the joke of Frisk as a self insert. Kris, though? No, they are NB and their identity, both gender and literal, are incredibly important to the plot. Frisk’s identity as a character was not at all crucial to the plot of Undertale, but Kris’s is, which is why it’s important to be respectful when speaking of Kris’s pronouns and why it’s not that important what Frisk identifies as, because they really don’t identify as anything (could even be gender fluidity). The separation between player and character was very thin and very purposeful in Undertale. Personally, I like using she/they pronouns for Frisk interchangeably.
@@nah4437 how can you tell that kris's identity is important to the plot? ive always read both games as the character's gender being unstated, specifically. as in sure, maybe characters might refer to frisk and kris in a gendered way, but it just so happens the player never sees those moments. it's a fictional world, so i guess characters can literally just not have a gender, too. or that the player determines their gender.
@@colly6022Imo, it’s because gender is super important to someone’s identity. Kris is their own person with their own history, if you try to change that from them then you are robbing them of their identity.
@@colly6022 okay, and? you could say that about anything, you’re not making a point. “it’s just a book” or “it’s just a show” could be used to wave away any nuance in stories. if you don’t want to have a discussion about gender and the ways it impacts the story of Deltarune then don’t say anything. characters, in their world, are real people, so when we’re doing a literary analysis of characters we treat them like they’re real people, and that includes respecting someone’s gender identity.
I had a light bulb moment: what if Kris Dreemurr is a Risk Murderer? I mean, murder is an aggressive word, but maybe it's to emphasize how urgent Kris is taking action to "kill" some sort of "risk" or danger
Better yet: add -Tian or -Tina and you can have a Risk Anti Murderer, whatever convoluted nonsense that means They can also be Skit Rain Murderer, as a clever allusion to their escapism, which will surely cause The Roaring. They can be Ink Stair Murderer, because (insert Omori Joke here) or Kin Stair Murderer (see above) (I’ve never played Omori, one of those should be close) I’ve also got Iris Tank Murderer. I have no idea what that means, but it’s pretty evocative…!
I’m surprised you we’re surprised by Asgore being a bad king. There are a few lines that reference how he has no idea what he’s doing, and only put the human killing plan in effect because he thought it would make people happy.
Great video! I've put the book on my wish list for Christmas to read for myself hopefully! Just a note on the characters who use they/them where the author says they left the gender "unstated" in Japanese - I'm non-binary myself (they/them) and I think this has more to do with the nuances of the two languages themselves than leaving it open to people's interpretation. Japanese, since it uses pronouns a bit differently to English doesn't really have a direct equivalent to the singular 'they' that many non-binary English speakers use, and so to best express a non-binary gender identity in Japanese one would simply avoid words that have a binary gender connotation, and use things such as the character's name instead where an English speaker would use a pronoun. I think this particular localisation choice actually shows Toby and the team trying to remain respectful to people with non-binary identities by keeping that lack of binary gender for the characters.
I think the part about Papyrus' battle body isn't implying that the reason for his costume hasn't been revealed, but rather revealing that the design itself isn't a reference to Sigma, just the name
I did a little research (aka, read Wikipedia) on Brandish after you brought up Toby's cageyness in discussing it during the livestream. The backstory for the game involves an ancient king who was transformed into a monster and plunged underground along with his kingdom after attempting to seize an ancient power from a benevolent dragon. Sounds a lot to me like a thematic parallel to Deltarune's lack of magic in the Light World and abundance of magic in the Dark World. We're probably going to get a lore dump somewhere around chapter 5 or 6 explaining that the Dark World was created as a result of a cataclysmic event in the past where someone in the Light World attempted to use some sort of forbidden magic, and was banished and sealed away (along with all magic) into a realm that eventually became the Dark World. Maybe it will tie into the war between humans and monsters that is so conspicuously lacking from Deltarune's story so far.
So if humans produce determination in large quantities and it’s like a physical substance can that be like… mass produced? Like a people farm of sorts? It’s a little dark but it’s a neat concept
Hmmmm just like the Vim Factory and Toadwood Forest in Mario And Luigi Partners in Time. But instead of Vim being extracted from Toads it's Determination being sapped from Humans
@@JaruJaruJ I swear to god, if Meat Factory is foreshadowing something in Deltarune I'm going to lose my mind. (it probably was just a song for True Lab tho. It has a creepy name and fits the vibe)
i feel like the fact that you can reapply the bandage (and honestly just its description in general) hinted that it was the wrapping type. cool to see that assumption was correct :D
Regarding the line “Toby designed [Monster Kid] to have no clear gender”, it’s probably worth mentioning that Toby didn’t design MK at all, Magnolia Porter did. So I wonder if the wording was mistake or an assumption on the author’s part?
40:39 - I disagre, I think it's cool: because this means that the power we have wasn't just given to us because the character we play is unually strong, but rather the strenght comes purely from us. We can shape the reality and it depends only on us if we are strong enough to do so
Also, though i have no real proof for this, i imagine the positive routes in the game, particularly True Pacifist, probably did a positive effect on Frisk as a character, possibky we made them an even more determinated person by the end of our adventure even when we inevitably have to go
@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard Oh we absolutely did. At the start it was our Determination keeping Frisk alive and puppeting them around. However in the Asriel fight Frisk was Determined enough that their soul could pull itself back together /without/ our intervention.
@@MarcyTheKindaCoolWizard dialogue proves your point, both true pacifists end cutscenes and flowey's post-pacifist dialogue, if we stay with toriel then frisk stays with toriel with no problems, if we don't stay with toriel then frisk visits the monsters and takes group photos with them, frisk doesn't dislike them at all, and flowey tells us that Frisk is happy
This is just my two cents, but I feel like you can interpret that final quote about the player and Frisk in a better way. It could be interpreted as, "Just like in any other game, the player can save. Except here, in Undertale, it's the player's determination that allows them to save." It could also be interpreted as, "Just like in any other game, the player can save. Except here, at the final part of Asriel's fight, it's the player's determination that allows them to save." After all, throughout both Undertale and Deltarune, the only way to save the game is to have Frisk or Kris interact with a save point. Interacting with the first save point in Deltarune even has the narrator say "The light only you can see." Therefore, it's likely that both Frisk and Kris can save on their own, and since you control them, you save through them. In the final part of Asriel's fight, when Frisk is unable to reach their SAVE file, it is your determination that allows you to take control. After all, you wouldn't have this determination to save everyone if you didn't go down the True Pacifist route, right? In the end, it is your determination that saved the day (pardon the pun), but that doesn't mean Frisk isn't as determined as you were.
the idea that Frisk is "just along for the ride" doesn't necessarily mean they are "nothing special" I think it just confirms that they are not responsible for which route you chose, in fact the "No, I won't be broken" line seems to imply that they are in fact special. But it's us as the player who allowed them to reach their full potential during the Hopes and Dreams segment
about "boku", when they say "boyish vibe" it means male pronouns, not "a young boy" (even though it could be). Usually people who view themselves as strong and cool and want to show how scary they are or whatever use "ore" (mainly in media forms like anime and games, irl it sounds weird and condecending), so I assume that Madelin inserted the boku part specifically because Flowey could also use "ore" but they decided it wasn't fitting the character.
I don't get why Frisk not being special and just along for the ride is so shocking? The save file was Chara's to begin with and Chara will outright try to beat it into your skull that YOU are a character in the story of the game and can be the true villain of the tale. (Yet people will still miss the point and put all the blame on Chara and thats not even getting into the point that Chara is the narrator of all the routes) Also I don't think Toriel is completely innocent, when laying into Asgore's plan (which almost succeeded despite the child murder) at the end of the game she tells him instead dragging it out to basically do Chara's and Asriel's plot and get it over with. Which makes me think maybe Chara got the plan from overhearing it from their mom.
Brandish is directly incorpored into Toby's Earthbound Halloween Hack. Toby has gone to say he is not proud of it, wich may explain why he steered the conversation away from it.
Wait no. This was probably pointed out already, but just to be sure: Flowey didn’t just gain the ability to save and load when he absorbed the souls. There’s a line where he mentions that he stopped being able to do so when Frisk fell down into the Underground. (That said, it’s unknown how much DT he was infused with. It might have been more than one normal person’s worth.) Also, food for thought: Undertale is just a very meta kind of narrative. I wouldn’t be surprised if the thinking was that “of course the only one with real determination is the player, because everything else is just a fictional being reacting to their actions.”
this entire video is jaru being a disappointed frisk fan but actually, this is a really cool summary and it’s even more interesting because i’m learning to speak japanese right now
14:08 it’s clear that Toby fox took a LOT of inspiration from brandish, in fact it arguably is a larger inspiration than earthbound. Maybe at some point you could do a livestream of this game? Then you could see all of the inspiration for yourself.
40:58 You just said that's Mandelin saying that, not Toby, so you can't say that's Toby's vision. Either way Mandelin is clearly talking about it in a meta way, if you the person pressing the computer stop playing the game after you have your date with Papyrus then the world stops there, the world of the game only exists as long as you have to have the determination to keep playing it. Also, it's not really a theory that the other humans saved, they did, Toriel's dialogue if you reload after choosing a pie flavor pretty much confirms it.
Yeah, the other humans ability to save and load were confirmed on multiple occasions, specifically by Toriel and Asgore. Frisk does probably have their own Determination, but as /players/ we have infinite Determination that can supplant any single soul's. We never have to suffer consequence for our mistakes, we don't feel Frisk's pain when their soul gets burnt, shattered, pierced, or otherwise injured. This is exactly what Chara hated about us. All the other souls presumably gave up because they couldn't bear any more pain. While we never give up because we never feel the actual pain.
25:25 I would think that its just sans calling random numbers and the reason why its a fun event is because in that timeline he just so happens to call your number.
The fact that frisk has not that much determination leaves me sincerely with a bitter taste in my mouth,to the point i just want to kinda forget it. But there is sadly not much i can do. And as it may be relevant to deltarune,i will just have to remember it.
the metatextual point of undertale is that we as players have the determination to see everything, to continue going forward in the game no matter what. that's why the genocide route is such a slog, to prove to us that we will push ourselves to do things that aren't even fun, just because we're determined to do everything in the game
@@corynasf9749 on that point you are right. But if we as the player have the determination to push and do the geno route,it does not mean that frisk has to lack determination. For as much as frisk is clearly mean to be a stand-in for us,it does not mean that they have to lack something special in character themselves. Or at least that's what i belive
Great video as always! I do agree Frisk is slightly shortchanged through these interpretations because I am genuinely super interested in learning more about them as a person, but I always try to remember the original context in which UT was made, and the original experience it was meant to be, back before it became a sensation, and then had years and years of fandom growing past the original dynamics and theorizing, creating all this distance from the original experience, and instead seeing the game/characters more from the other side of this now well-known universe. And ultimately, I think remembering the original experience Toby was trying to create gives a lot of credence to Frisk just having less agency, because they are meant to be/come across as a generic silent RPG protagonist whose personality is only read/revealed through interactions with the other characters, and the player’s choices, but of course one of the many major reveals in UT is your (the player’s) growing sense of the player’s role/your own role, and chara’s existence. For an advanced fandom, I think thinking through possibilities for Frisk and their context/background/agency is -specifically- tantalizing BECAUSE of that, because they are one of the least developed but ubiquitous characters. But I sadly feel it MAY just be that there wasn’t really all that much to Frisk originally besides being wrapped up in supporting the assumptions and subverted assumptions central to the original experience of the game, and then being a “container” for our moral choices. I honestly hope that is wrong, or at least that more to Frisk can be retconned in because of that vague context. But I suspect that just is the “cannon” of Frisk in a way. And that Kris in DR is Toby’s attempt to subvert that dynamic of the silent protagonist’s agency. I dunno! I hope I’m proven wrong.
24:59 I would say “it’s technically ambiguous that it’s sans” is a bit of a stretch. I do have a personal story about this one though. When I first got this I had just reset after unsuccessfully killing sans in a geno route. I reset to do pacifist, but when I got that phone call I was actually scared. I got other things like the wrong number as well. Overall I got actually creeped out by it.
I don't think a characters gender being "unstated" in Japanese necessarily makes it less likely that the character is non-binary. More likely, it could have been worded that way because Japanese lacks the language required to refer to someone as non-binary via 3rd person pronouns alone, or that Japanese DOES have non binary pronouns, but they're not widely used and could confuse some players. This is sort of like how Spanish by default has no genderless pronouns for non-binary people, but there is a movement to add the pronoun "elle" to the language. While it works, the movement to add this pronoun into the language is rather small, and could confuse people who have never heard it before. Because of this, leaving a character's pronouns "unstated" could be seen as the easiest solution.
@whocaresaboutthename6850 Why wouldn't they? Gender is a psychological and social construct, so it stands to reason humans and monsters, who live in societies (big shocker) have gender identities
@@whocaresaboutthename6850 considering the fact that Kris is referred to as they/them by their own mother and is explicitly NOT a self insert character, I don't blame anyone for assuming that Kris is non binary. This isn't even mentioning the fact that mettaton, a ghost, is explicitly male, and mad mew mew who is also a ghost is explicitly female. I don't think it's crazy to think they have canon genders
@@niltoastI do think the Ghosts only get actual genders when they find a physical boy, and i like the idea that Kris was adopted very young by the Dreemurs and they themselfs don't know their actual gender and neither does any of the Monsters bc they don't know how Humans work, leaving it also up to interpretation and it just makes this rlly funny ☠️
22:15 The design of Papyrus's battle body is probably just an earthbound reference, we can see the same logo on the body on the starman enemy in earthbound. I don't think it will get important in Deltarune's story.
For fallen down being a mechanic in undertale, I wonder if it would've worked as a way to potentially spare an enemy if you accidentally killed them. That way you had a chance to fix your run if you were going for pacifist.
Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense. He probably took it out to emphasize that, if you use violence in life, there's always the risk that you'll kill whoever you're attacking.
Fallen Down was not meant to be a battle mechanic at all. The phrase “Fallen Down is partial cut content” is in reference to an explanation cut from the game, meant to be “Monster History Part 6” for the library. Here’s the script - * (It's a book labelled Monster History Part 6.) Read it Do not * Unfortunately, monsters are not experienced with illness. * However, when monsters are about to expire of age, they lie down, immobile. * We call this state "Fallen Down." * A person who has Fallen Down will soon perish. * In a way, this confusing situation was all too familiar.
40:25 this absolutely floored me, the story being told in deltarune was already being told in undertale? it reconceptualizes so many aspects of frisk's character, possibly making it so none of the actions seen are actually their own
This "need the help of the player to save" explains the one and the three save place in Undertale and Deltarune: in undertale, we control one character, so we have one save file, while in Deltarune, we can control three characters,so we have three save files. We save into and load from the timelines of a particular character.
crazy coincidence i read this book three days ago !! its a really interesting read especially if youre thinking of going into translation work if you see this check it out !!
Great video Jaru. Something important that you should know though is that in the book Chara is frequently referred to as "the main character," (page 79) with Frisk sometimes being called the "player." So the book saying "the main character is just along for the ride" could just be talking about Chara being pulled by Frisk's Determination. It doesn't have to be about the real the game player.
About “he’s not really great at being a king”. Considering the previous sentence, I think Toby doesn’t mean Asgore sucks at his job, he means that Asgore is not good at acting cold and distant.
31:37 more likely toby meant this to say "he's not good at acting like a king" Essentially implying he's more than adequate at the job, but mostly always acts like a dad, even when the situation calls for a person of power and a leader.
The part about Frisk not having the determination but the Player is the one loading and saving always felt like the point. Chara and Frisk are being haunted by the player. Frisk is the medium, Chara being the embodiment of growth from the narrative, and the player being the force pushing them forward. The mirrors kinda point it out. Frisk till the very end is just kinda there, Chara is watching what you are doing, and if you are evil they break and reach the conclusion that if this is how the world is, so be it. The mirror is Chara responding to the actions. At the start, "It's you!" but by the end, "Despite everything, it's still you." being the acceptance that the harshness of the world doesn't mean you have to be bad to match it. but if you are evil, they see that what happened to them, and what you did is just the way of things, so looking at the kill hungry beast in the mirror, "It's me."
Also the design of Papyrus' "battle body" does actually have a likely origin, that being the Starmen from Earthbound as they have the same symbol on their chest that Papyrus does
I do wonder now if it's high amounts of determination that curses you to have the possibility of being possessed by a player. Who knows? Maybe the reason why flowey is so messed up in the head is because he too was possessed by a player who wanted to do everything in the game, but I also have a theory that if you are controlled by a player you will mistake the players actions for your own which is why flowey thinks he's a messed up person cuz he thinks he killed all of those people. Also, when we see the character move on they're own sometimes without player input, that could be caused by high amounts of desire. This is just a theory, I don't necessarily believe it. However, I do wonder how kris manages to sperarate themselves from the player. It could be because they're powerful (I think kris is the most powerful being that we have SEEN so far in both deltarune and undertale). Also, the previous kids having he ability to save is canon. The narrator in neutral route says "he simply nods" when frisk says that asgore has already killed him/her multiple times. This implies that asgore knew about saving and loading from the other kids
42:27 Well, the reason why Frisk can't save on their own could just be because Flowey's determination is so overwhelming that no one can override his determination through normal means. So, since Flowey wasn't around when the other humans fell it's still possible that those other humans could save and load.
i want to point out real quick that ketsui spelled in katakana was a pretty good choice to translate determination to. tsui (終) in japanese means "end of life/death" so the ambiguity of katakana means it shares the same "termination" pun that the english dialog has
I would actually view the specific translations from the neutral run where it is implied you have complete strength over the world just drag frisk along in a more positive light due to the translation of the "it refused" line being more personal because it implies by taking frisk on this journey through the underground and not giving up you have taught them to be determined as well forming a nice character arc which I find even better than if frisk was just really determined from the beginning (And side note in a sense you do the same thing with Chara in the genocide route teaching them to be more determined but in a bad way and they even overpowering your determination and taking control from you)
I mean I feel like it’s more likely than not that the other Fallen Humans could save and reload, because if you tell Asgore that he’s killed you multiple times, he just nods and doesn’t seem to do anything that suggests he’s confused by that idea This presents 2 scenarios to me depending on whether or not the Humans could save and reload. The first is that they could do just that, because Human Souls have Determination and the one with the most Determination in the Underground can save and reload. Maybe they just didn’t have as much Determination as say Flowey or the Player, and so while this power saved them and allowed them to survive for a while, eventually they ran out of Determination and gave up, like somebody quitting on finishing a game because they can’t get past the final boss. They simply didn’t have as much Determination as Frisk or the Player The second scenario, which is that the other Fallen Humans couldn’t do this, is that Asgore somehow knows about this being Flowey. I doubt Flowey came out the gate murdering people since when they were first “born” from their perspective they were just still Asriel but they looked different, so maybe he had interactions with Asgore and after saving and reloading a few times and telling Asgore about it he got the gist of the message. Either that or Flowey acted as a proxy for the Fallen Humans to allow them to revive from death using his power, torturing Asgore and forcing him to fight the Humans multiple times, each telling him how many times he’s killed them, up until Flowey doesn’t find it entertaining and stops reviving them
@13:11-.-Well I only know one ligress and I'm not a linguistic expert, I have seen quite a few linguist videos. For one I can tell, direct 1-to-1 parallel between words are exceedingly rare, to the point of near non-existence, and so translations are more a matter of finding synonyms then simple word replacement. Add to this the fact that most words have a little meaning, and then a connotation indicating the vibe the word uses. This could be a case where they couldn't find a good synonym for "pellet"in the Japanese language that both made sense on a literal meaning level and on a connotation level. Why this would be the case? I don't know, I don't know Japanese.
I love the fact that they finally confirmed tha tit's the player LITERAL determination that allows you to come back cuz that makes sense and that is what the game has been hintiing at alll this time, the whole stuff abut genocide and the player and the fact that essentially by contuining to play the game you come back to life and by "giving up" you stop coming back to life therefore have lost your determination, it is YOUR power that allows you to reset. I honestly enver saw it as a problem and saw it as super obiously what toby was going for.
@@whocaresaboutthename6850 homeboy a lotta people didn't believe the player's existence in UT. Personally i believed it and I'm happy and excited to come back with my victory. But theres still a lotta people who believe certain things in UT aren't diegetic
Good video, getting to hear this information put together was very interesting. Though I will admit, I raised my eyebrow a couple of times at the conclusions you came to. I’ll go over a few below. 22:15 - I don’t think this has *that* much meaning, personally. If you haven’t played X3 before, in context Sigma is a character who utilizes different robot bodies. The “Ultimate Battle Body” he constructs is essentially his “Ultimate Battle Armor”, if you will. In universe, I’d take this to mean that Papyrus’s battle body costume is made to be akin to his battle suit, which makes sense as he has interest in Royal Guardsmanship. 42:10 - I wouldn’t necessarily say it deconfirms it, Toriel states states that she got the sense of Deja Vu from the second playthrough with the previous humans as well. This could mean either the previous humans could Save/Load, or that Flowey was active and using Determination functions while the previous humans were present. 28:00 - This could just be misinterpreting your wording here, which my apologies if I am, but you say “but” here as if Toby’s quote necessarily denies the possibility of Bob being transmasculine. Saying “except Bob” doesn’t mean that Bob’s AGAB is Male, as it is appropriate to refer to trans people as being their preferred gender. 19:42 - I’ll try to keep this one short, Frisk’s agency is essentially something that is meant to be a bait and switch, where we are made to believe that they are representative of us, and that they are us. Initially, this is often interpreted as them being whatever gender we want them to be, as they are representative of us. But with the truth of their identity being flipped on its head in the Pacifist ending, where it is revealed they are their own person with their own name. At least in my eyes, it recontextualizes their gender, as they are still referred to in ambiguous/gender neutral terms, meaning they are ambiguous because it is their own identity and not left to *our* view of them any longer. This dichotomy doesn’t exist for other gender ambiguous characters in the game, they are their own people with their own identities from the start, which means I have a much harder time viewing it as credence for the idea that “you can interpret them however you want”. Those are two different scenarios. I’m not going to go into a rant about how non-binary characters don’t have to look into the camera and say “I am non binary” for it to be the case, but I feel like it should be recognized that the common referral of someone with gender neutral/ambiguous terms repeatedly is often an indicator of non-binary/genderqueer status. Regardless, don’t let any of that detract too much from the fact I still enjoyed the video. It’s a well put together all around, I liked the markers in the top left and really appreciate the timestamps.
mettaton loving english also may be a characterization thing considering he’s speaking japanese. i haven’t played the game in japanese so i can’t say how much english he uses with 100% certainty. but english phrases can be used in japanese because it’s trendy. english loanwords and phrases make their way into japanese very regularly as slang. in mettatons case, it could help add to his trendy, star persona. on the complete opposite end, characters who use a lot of english randomly, unrelated to slang, can come off as eccentric, odd, or even a little creepy depending on their other traits. obviously can’t say without playing the whole game in japanese myself, but it’s a fun detail about how english can be used as characterization
