Nice lecture. Day one in my class, my students had to explain the Buddha quote, " believe nothing, no matter where you've read it, no matter who has said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and common sense." It was all over my room with the word THINK above it. I challenged my students on day one to question anything said in the room, whether it was me saying it or a classmate. What's interesting with The Cave, is that there really isn't just one Power group in our lives. At the beginning there is, our parents, but as we age, we have teachers, then media, and gov etc all casting their own shadows and that is where the discomfort begins. Where we have the thoughts like: "but I thought" or "wow, I never knew." Another quote I would introduce my students to is, "where you stand depends on where you sit". To let them know that our experiences shape our views and conversations can get uncomfortable because you have two people who sat, basically, in two different caves. When two different cave dwellers meet.... oh, boy, that can get tough. Lol. The one who is able to not get so emotional during the meeting is the one who can take the time to understand why the person thinks the way they do. That doesn't mean you must agree with or believe what they are telling you, but you can see where their views are coming from. I think those who can best understand that they have been chained up in many caves, has the best chance to not let a new light disturb them.
You're being led right now. It's easier to fool you than convince you you've been fooled. No human knows anything until it was shown to them. You don't know what dress you want to buy until you see it at the store. Then you must consider do ya have enough money? And enough left over to pay rent and bills? Just because you can read and write doesn't mean you're smart. You did what they trained. But here's the thing. You have the power to train program yourself. Takes effort.
D Confused I didn’t ask for your thoughts but I do think you should heed your own words. Sidenotes: I don’t wear dresses and my bills/savings are always paid before I go shopping.
This is one of the most excellent lecture I have ever heard on Plato's Cave, the Dr. Kleiner has not only summed up an allegory, but a physical and mental procedure that we all practice in life, several times.
I love this work by Plato. The irony...those held prisoner aren't aware of the chains that bind them. You can imagine when one is "dragged" out for a proper education, those left behind would come up with a narrative that the individual is being punished for something they must have done! Then you can imagine a whole scenario of new rules for behavior in the "cave" to prevent anyone else from being taken away for punishment. It's fascinating and very relevant for the way we live a life in this existence.
The most ironic thing to me was that Socrates/Plato were so against the arts and so for rational thinking and yet the majority of their collective work that is known and remembered by most is their artistic and allegorical work which is itself not rational. This is not to say it is not rational in a kind with say Descartes but to say that it is not logical, falsifiable, or empirical. For all of their demand to move from a passions and emotions and feelings based standard for ethics, etc. they failed to do this and could only put forth the Realm of the Forms, the Cave, the Divided Line, the Gold, Silver, Bronze caste system, etc. all of which are not rational, not logical, not scientific, not empirical, not anything except, well poetic, artistic, perspective based, emotional, passionate, HUMAN! How ironic...
It sounds like the later theory of family systems. The black sheep is always the bad guy when we break from the family dysfunction of generations. Great lecture. Thanks Doc!
I really appreciate Dr. Kleiner's effort in helping me understand the concept better. His explanation was clear and well-structured, which made it easy for me to grasp the topic.
I was shown an animated movie in a speech class in college called "the cave". Was pretty amazed that after 2 years of prior college, included a sub in philosophy, I didn't see it before. One professor, long ago, pointed out how things from so long in the past, were still relevant then. One other note: the resistance that the people at the bottom of the cave had. It's one battle to find the truth, another to show others that what they see isn't the truth. Mark Twain said: it's easier to fool people than it is to convince people they've been fooled.
i actually enjoyed this lecture. i just came from watching The Allegory of the Cave from Ted Ed, then came here for a deeper understand of the allegory. and i was not disappointed. it was so enlightening. am from the Philippines, and 59 years old, fyi. thanks a lot, Dr. Harrison Kleiner. Salamat po!
The Allegory of the Cave isn’t about “education“ as much as it is about awareness and knowledge and at a more developed point of discussion the awareness that current knowledge is little more than a different point of “conventional” thought and opinion on a spectrum leading to enlightenment and truth (the Professor at 15:41). The very moment The Allegory of the Cave is taught in a school it ceases to be that which Plato was referencing in the story. By their very nature, educational institutions inculcate, they don’t educate. In fact, the students in that classroom are having chains bound to them by their need to accept the Professor’s approved interpretation of the Allegory (e.g., “There will be a quiz.” @30:53. The quiz isn’t about what The Allegory of the Cave is about, it’s about what the Professor thinks The Allegory of the Cave is about notwithstanding his “by no means would I want to insist that the reading I’ve given it here is the only reading that could be given“ at 30:39. If that‘s the truth, Professor, don‘t give a quiz, or at least give everyone an “A” no matter what he or she answers). Along those lines, referencing Socrates’ method of teaching, the Banking Model of education and using Paulo Freire‘s name in a lecture that has negligible student participation - and when it does it’s Socratic only to the extent the students are allowed to finish the Professor’s thought - misses the point as well. Or at least that’s what some scraggly homeless guy told me one day at a bus stop when he noticed I was reading “The Republic.” Fortunately the cops came and arrested him for being disobedient to the system so I didn’t have to listen to any more of his bullshit that day.
the allegory can absolutely be taught in an "institution". Socrates himself was a teacher, plato was his student. The man who leaves the cave goes back in to teach the "truth" to his compatriots. That he does so AND that he does it in the cave is important. The cave is the institution. Thee guy who has seen the light is a teacher. the wrong in the story is the lack of acceptance from the other people in the cave. they are not part of the institution (that would be the people casting the shadows) it is the people who refuse to accept the truth and NOT the institution. ...also, it is very easy to quiz someone on the discussion without forcing them to agree with the professor. I don't know what his quiz looks like or if he took the extra time to do so but I have had many great phil. teachers who gave quizes to determine if people were listening, with whom I vehemently disagreed and wrote that disagreement into the tests, who gave me A's for understanding the questions and coming to answers even when my conclusions were diametrically opposed to theirs. (most of whom loved me in class and were super supportive of me)
Book VII, The Republic, 514a: "'Next', I said, 'here's a situation which you can use as an analogy for the human condition- for our education or lack of it." Koklan & Thompson translated. Allan Bloom translated the passage in a similar way, but definitely used "education" in it. Plato meant the allegory to be about education (of the guardians in particular).
Dennis Halterman yea I feel like he’s teaching a high school course. If this is a college course....wow aren’t those students being misinformed. Who are his references? “You don’t really need to know...” is one of his quotes. How awful of a professor. I wouldn’t bother watching this garbage because he can’t teach.
Great presentation of allegory of the cave. The deepest meaning of the cave is as an allegory of the affairs of the Soul. All parts and players of the story can be found within us. It describes the awakening of our awareness/consciousness to our Spirit nature, true 'education'
***** the allegory refers to all 3 stages of Personality , Soul and Spirit as well as the Republic, but if one don't like the 'idea' of Soul, one can just use the word personality, or awareness, consciousness etc
When raising or getting ready to walk somebody through the catechisms I always stop at a platform and discuss the allegory of the cave I'm in a prison my hands are Shackled the Shadows dancing on the wall people throw meet at me so I believe the either that light or the things they're throwing meet at me or my God they must be my creator wait a minute I'm all by myself nobody's here with me I have to get out of this hell I've created will how are they still feeding me things I can't see anything wait a minute I'm just going to stand up and walk to the window do I have a agoraphobia what about my people that are still in there I crawled to the edge of the cave I'm hungry there is no fire there are no Shadows there are no monsters the sun just Rose I'm going to tell everybody that I'm not. They'll never believe me and if they don't believe me that I'm not God they must be God maybe nobody's God but we know that there is a God I like to call God Jesus
Great lecture! Especially from 24:00 until the end it's a really valuable interpretation I wish my school / university had been more relentless about making EVERY student understand that learning is active (and about desire to understand) until EVERYONE actually gets this fundamental truth 100%. Using the cave allegory is the perfect vehicle to get this point across imo
This guy says "he escaped the cave"....he's missing the point that the prisoner doesn't want to leave ....he is dragged into daylight and then adjusts. That's why he some back so excited because the prisoner didn't want enlightenment either but now he has it and wants everyone to know what he knows.
@@arete7884 I call it matrix within a matrix. The exit sign on one cave is the entry sign of another. I believe theres an amount of truth to to be learnt from each cave we escape.
A book I recently read lead me to this subject. I am happy that this was the version of the allegory I chose to learn from. The author, Jeremy Griffith, uses this allegory (and many others) as evidence for his understanding of the human condition. I might add, that the writings of Jeremy Griffith are well worth your time to read.
wow, how surprising, a discourse by an author that argues you should buy his book, how selfish, how capitalist, how so unaware of the critique of the self, himself, yourself, etc.
@@wfepriceWhile I understand the spirit from which you are coming, I don't see anywhere in the comment where Jeremy Griffith is himself plugging for his book. Pamela seems to just be plugging for validation of her own positive experience with this author.
amazing lecture, in my philo class were going over the cave and this helped me understand some aspects of the allegory I was unable to understand myself before we have inclass discussion later in the week.
This amusing animated interpretation of Plato's 'Republic' is one of countless interpretations. I like to think that Plato, and others of his ilk, had a sense of humour !
This is actually my first video about philosophy and i love it! Thank you Dr. Kleiner for your interesting lecture, it's very informative and insightful.
I really appreciate that li e about 'Don't be so quick to laugh at peoples confusion.' Perhaps our moments of confusion are precursers to important challenges to common beliefs which someone is beginning to disentangle themselves from. Perhaps someones confusion is valuable to us all. Or even better, someone might be trying to be polite by saying they are confused by an apparent lack of sense "to their limited perspective", or "in their opinion- and in truth they are on the verge of outrage.
Confusion is a blessing, it allows us to let go of false beliefs and move towards true ones. That being said, the blessing should not be abused by refusing to let go of it.
1st time ive heard the word forms yet in the lecture or comments. is forms another fancy way to say ideas? if so then what is russian formalism, who is vladimir propp and do those two have anything to do with this "forms" you speak of?
@@scottdpatterson, so you have a real object, shine a light on it and create a shadow, and that shadow then becomes a more perfect form of the object itself? that makes no sense to me whatsoever. I suspect that what's really going on is that Plato and all idealists (universalists) believe that there is somewhere 1 perfect form of a table and every table made is man's attempt to come closer to that perfection. But reverse this and you have something universal in tables that they are all versions of the perfect form. We could apply this concept of forms = ultimate truth with history as an example. Every history is one person's or a collective's version of history because have to choose what to leave out and leave in which will be determined by their ideological position. An absolutely true history would be the perfect form of history leaving out and in the perfect things, a history to which all other historys' aspire to be. This true/form history could only be written by God or higher consciousness.
My mam told me this story when I was around 6. I understood the meaning strate away, but didn't realize it was university philosophy !!! It's the media in the middle & the elite on the top, us on the bottom !!!
+reda majidi Was just about to leave a comment like, "you can't fool me Professor Zach Galifinakis!" but figured someone else had to have seen the similarity. Haha.
........ I'm stunned.... I I've been arguing lately. That the reason Plato is so important is that because he's tripartite. Not monoist or dualists. But his model for reality is divided into physical mental and the abstract. While I had a general idea about what Plato says about the physical and abstract. I really couldn't express what I meant about mental. Until now when the teacher got me back on track about what Plato says about education! That's amazing! Halfway through the lecture I was losing hope that my model of Plato's thought was wrong. Because I've probably seen and read presentations of the Allegory of the cave a million times. But I always felt something was missing. Then in the next half of the lecture... Where the teacher after having discussed the basics of Plato's view on the physical and abstract. Gets serious and starts discussing the implications of what Allegory means for education and mental aspect of learning. Boom! I'm impressed! Going to definitely save this video and revisit it in the near future!
I am 66 year 66-year-old Greek person and feel robbed by seeing this man Dr. Garrison Kleiner teaching our philosophy so brilliantly. I wished we had an earlier opportunity to be helped by someone of his stature.
I really enjoyed his walkthrough of the allegory. However, I must disagree with his final point, where the Professor explains that the sun represents education. The sun represents Enlightenment - and education is definitely a component of enlightenment - but the sun is the Truth. Education does not necessarily have to be that Truth, wisdom, essence, call it what you like; a word is a mere shadow of this Truth, but it is a also a conceivable mediator. Logos.
He literally says in the last minute of his lecture that there are many different ways to interpret this and this is just one. Bruh. Try to finish what you start.
No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half-asleep in the dawning of your knowledge. The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness. If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind. - Kahlil Gibran Just felt like this was appropriate in the discussion below.
awesome, especially the first line. I will be contemplating that one for a long time and revisiting the concept of tabula rasa and psychology. it kind of dismisses the nurture part from the nature nurture debate dont you think?
In the republic, I think book 3, Socrates discusses how certain passages of homer can make the guardians fearful of death. One of the terms.he specifically says should be excluded is "dark shades" (not sure if thats the correct phrase). Could this have any relation to the shadows of the cave?
22:40 I actually think its impossible to move a confused mind to a less enlightened state; confusion is the throne of learning. Clarity is also an illusion, it's actually a state which begs to induce confusion constantly, because if you are clear on something you do not ask questions about it, and a mind that doesn't question is not one that is free - even if it appears that there are no questions to ask.
bravo, picture the task of the social/cultural anthropologist; they have to discard all of their enlightenment, all of their logic, reasoning, philosophy etc. and go tabula rasa to a "primitive" culture and immerse themselves into their thought/body/soul/spirit world and then explain that to us. who from an unflinching position of "clarity" possilby do that. that final "this, my interpretation, is the TRUTH, not my point of view, etc is what creates ideologies like Nazism, communism, etc. very dangerous, prog the source of all ultimate danger
The Cave is an allegory for society, for culture. For convention as opposed to nature. The Cave is certainly not an analogy for the soul. Why? Because the allegory speaks of prisoners, PLURAL, not a prisoner. Yet it is a single prisoner, not all prisoners, that is released to make an assent to the Ideas. The prisoner who makes the assent is the philosopher, as opposed to most prisoners who do not make the assent and are not philosophers. The essential points of this allegory are several: 1. Man does not have immediate access to truth. Philosophy must make an assent from the common prejudice (the shadows on the cave wall) to truth. 2. The philosopher, once having left behind the illusions of culture and society, nonetheless has to live in society among the unwise. 3. There is a permanent tension between philosophy and society. Philosophy calls the fundamental opinions on which society is constructed into to question, and therefore poses a threat to society. Far from the assertion of Mr. Kleiner, the Allegory of the Cave CANNOT be separated from the meaning of the rest the Republic. The Allegory compels us to ask the greater question presented in the Republic, can society be constructed on Reason or is society necessarily constructed on opinion, on mere convention? What must be done to establish a regime in which reason rules?
_'...do we see any of them living a ''pure'' life?'_ *Catherine Murphy* Interesting comment Catherine Nonetheless, it raises a serious question: Do these politicians believe they live a 'pure life'?
Sadly, what most people seem to ignore: , It makes no sense to interpret the "famous" cave allegory without interpreting the two allegories it is embedded in: The Sun-allegory and the Line-allegory (im not sure i translated them into english correctly). It is a common mistake of people outside the subjects area (which obviously is also true to lecturers) to reduce the cave allegory to an explanation of how an individual is leaving his "alleged perception of reality" for the "real" truth within a society of ignorants. It is actually only one of three parts to make his theory of forms plausible and to show what the idea of the rightious really is. In addition the politea is no book about the rightous state, it is about righteousness itsself and how it comes into areas of life through the education of men, which in turn is reflected by the "correct" balance of the three virtues in everyone.
THANK YOU. Took a Western Political Philosophy class in my first year of University in Vancouver, Canada back in 2002. One of the best classes I ever took with a great professor like Dr. Kleiner here. Almost the exact same lecture and it stuck with me all these years later. When looking at our world now it's amazing to see how many of the world's population are still watching shadow puppets on a cave wall. When we try to guide them towards the light and higher knowledge or reality, they become aggressive and call us "woke". Funny how that term (in it's rarity of being actually defined by them) actually fits. Plato - over 2K years later, still on point and prophetic on the human condition. Thank you for the great lecture and the wonderful trip down memory lane. ❤
