AMD Ryzen TDP Deep-Dive & What Cooler Manufacturers Think of "TDP"

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This video talks about AMD's definition of TDP in great detail, deep-diving on Ryzen thermal design power, power consumption, heat load, and best CPU cooler choices.
Sponsor: Buy Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut (Amazon - geni.us/LCcsv)
Article: pending publication after the video!
Most people have likely seen "TDP" on a cooler box at some point, and it unfortunately has no useful correlation to "TDP" on a CPU box -- Intel or AMD -- and mostly correlates to formulas used to work backwards into a number that's nice for marketing. There are some useful applications for TDP numbers, but for consumers, it neither measures power nor heat (particularly accurately), so different metrics are needed to determine the best CPU cooler for a product. The most common mistake is for people to use TDP to compare processor power consumption between parts, especially cross-brand (e.g. AMD vs. Intel TDP), and this is a fair mistake to make when considering the unit of "Watts" in the TDP figures. Unfortunately, electrical power doesn't ever once show up in the AMD TDP formula, so this isn't really a useful metric for comparing power consumption.
In this video, we're defining TDP, particularly as used for AMD Ryzen parts (e.g. AMD Ryzen 3000 CPUs on Zen 2, but it's the same for the others). We won't be talking about Intel today. The focus is on TDP, what it is, where it's useful (or not), and what cooler manufacturers think of the Thermal Design Power metric that they're provided.
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Host, Additional Research: Steve Burke
Editorial, Research: Patrick Lathan
Video: Josh Svoboda, Andrew Coleman
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Опубликовано:

27 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 1,1 тыс.

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

Major research piece for us. We spent a few weeks going back-and-forth with AMD and with cooler manufacturers, then dug through all of the reviewer guides through Ryzen 1st Gen. All your support on content like this is appreciated -- it takes a long time and we really enjoy it! It's fun stuff to dive into. Article will come later. Support us directly by grabbing a modmat, toolkit, shirt, or glass from the GN store: store.gamersnexus.net/ You might also like our newest HW News video, which talks about some upcoming Ryzen parts: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-VNfrGEBtncQ.html

@tsheplin 5 лет назад

I run my 1800x on a corsair h100i on full load 44c

@eaglewi 5 лет назад

Thank you. Much appreciated

@Kojiro3210 5 лет назад

@@tsheplin If your 1800x functioned like mine at stock, it stays cool like that because under a full load, avx or non-avx, it stops between 95 and 100w Package power draw. avx will make clocks go lower but it will still stay limited in that fashion. I'd like to see some stock screenshots where that isn't the case.

@coinexchange1761 5 лет назад

@Gamers Nexus TL;DR AMD's fomulas on how to quantify thermal dissipation. Various thermal states of electrical and metallic components and the variability of the thermal medium...also called "AIR" drastically changes the characteristics of thermal dissipation. In other words, your Heatsink won't dissipate 95w (thermally) if your ambient thermal medium [AIR] is at 140F. This also *all* changes depending on the performance characteristics of the metal and interface of the "Item" you use as a heatsink. It's not rocket science. "thermal radiation" (heat) wants to equalize with the rest of the cosmos...but it can only do so (?efficiently?) in the right conditions. [Insert somewhere the notion of Entropy]

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

@@coinexchange1761 You're right. It's not rocket science. It's marketing science.

@rujigo69 5 лет назад

Stopped studying for a thermodynamics test for this. End up studying anyway

@marlmyster 5 лет назад

Can't escape Heat Death!...

@tobiassteindl2308 5 лет назад

I stopped doing homework for theoretical electrodynamics xD

@dgaming9791 5 лет назад

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed

@ntsJN 5 лет назад

my condolences thermodynamics are a lost cause for you

@bajatruckguy 5 лет назад

LOL

@der8auer 5 лет назад

Must watch video for everyone! Loved the Watt is Watt part :D I guess there are engineering Watt and marketing Watt

@or2kr 5 лет назад

Watt? :P

@RogerJL 5 лет назад

But Watt is not only electrical, might not be used to SI units... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt

@Quetzalcoatl0 5 лет назад

So basically if a 1800w stove that heats food to above 150C, my 1800w vacuum cleaner should melt after 3 minutes, because no plastics can survive 150C+. And the CPU is this magical device that consumes 100% of the power it gets. It's has infinite resistance, and no electrical data is passed to the other devices. Got it!

@RogerJL 5 лет назад

@@Quetzalcoatl0 a vacuum cleaner is not really a good counter example as I think it has a fan disposing of the heat ;)

@vahurensto3714 5 лет назад

@@Quetzalcoatl0 1)Vacuum cleaner converts electrical energy mostly to mechanical tbh .... 2) If CPU were to consume 100% power it can get, then it would be equal to max output that PSU can output through motherboard. If it had infinite resistance, then no power would be drawn. 3) Your statements are so bad, that you should go study physics a little.

@thegirthquake8574 5 лет назад

"There's no rgb cpus... Yet.." Steve do NOT give them ideas!

@Argosh 5 лет назад

My exact reaction XD

@lastpally 5 лет назад

Corsairs already on it

@Zarcondeegrissom 5 лет назад

only when it comes with RGB thermal paste, lol.

@or2kr 5 лет назад

We absolutely need another heat source on the CPU

@Gunni1972 5 лет назад

@@XavierFox42 just follow the lights, lol

@KarzGuitar 5 лет назад

I can't wait til we have a better, agreed-upon standard for what TDP is trying to convey

@StaelTek 5 лет назад

agreed! i wish for an actual industry standard for out-of-box TDP.

@KarzGuitar 5 лет назад

@@StaelTek yeah! I'm sure they'll get there some day, and everyone will look back on the current era like it's some antiquated, uncivilised mess

@teaser6089 5 лет назад

There is really no need, as long as you keep in your head that it's just a rule of thumb and that you allways have to get a cooler that is slightly overkill. It's the same with PSUs, if your system will max draw 400 watt, than you atleast get a 500 watt PSU, but a 600 watt would be better, cause it gives you headroom. Also keep in mind that TDP or even power draw numbers given by amd or Intel most of the time, if not always talk about a situation where the cpu is running at base clock speeds, so no boost.

@ikbendusan 5 лет назад

it's not going to happen because it's used as a marketing ploy. it will only change if it's mandated by governments

@KarzGuitar 5 лет назад

@@teaser6089 I can agree that there's no need for it, but that doesn't mean that it wouldn't be a welcome change. A quality of life upgrade, one less thing to think deeply about when a standardized analysis could simplify something that doesn't need to be complicated. I think the PSU comparison isn't quite apt, as the power draw stated is still a definite number. If you want more headroom you can go above, but you at least know your minimum. Seems like more of a grey area when it comes to TDP

@DaftLimmy 5 лет назад

I don't get it.

@pravda9646 4 года назад

How did you not get noticed in eight months Limmy, I'm disappointed

@anchorbubba 4 года назад

Is ¤▪︎》•□ heavier than ○■°☆

@farawaythrower 4 года назад

you will in time, limmy. in time.

@ADCFproductions 4 года назад

@@pravda9646 who is this Limmy guy?

@pravda9646 4 года назад

@@ADCFproductions idk if im missing a joke but he's the guy in the video who says steel is heavier than feathers

@JarrodsTech 5 лет назад

10/10 for unexpected Limmy's show

@FrankLeeMadeere 5 лет назад

ME: "deep dive"?? I thought almost every GN video was a deep dive STEVE: Hold my cryonaut

@Anon20855 5 лет назад

you meant conductonaut , right ?

@PainterVierax 5 лет назад

@@Anon20855 nah, hydronaut is better to deep dive.

@PainterVierax 5 лет назад

@@NatureQuest2024 This is an extreme reaction. I get a bit lost too during this one, despite having no problem with buildzoid's videos. But that doesn't mean I think of unsub.

@Anon20855 5 лет назад

@@NatureQuest2024 well if you can't stand it , just go to a mainstream , dumbed down version of tech Jeesus like the LTT for example

@bookworm8415 5 лет назад

Just go LTT if it makes your head hurt. I just take a beer while grading papers and listen to him in the background as a soothing quiet piece of rational thought i wish i could understand with any sort of competence.

@DavidWilsonsays 5 лет назад

Can you please create an online test I can take after one of these lectures for Gamers Nexus University credit?? All grading of course in "X"s where more "X"s are better. I'd like to graduate fully ray traced with RGB honors and a minor in hair care. The Mod mat diploma suitable for framing will be greatly covenanted.

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

Grading scale is X to X! The more Xs, the better!

@Zarcondeegrissom 5 лет назад

it's not a university course, it's required qualification training for working with Gamers Nexus National Laboratories, lol. (Mostly Kidding)

@misterthegeoff9767 5 лет назад

Speaking as someone with a bachelors in Electronic Engineering if I'd been able to take Gamers Nexus as an elective it would have been more useful to me than some of the mandatory courses I did have to take at uni. Guess how many times I've used Turbo Pascal since graduating back in 2000 for example. Or 6802 assembly.

@Zarcondeegrissom 5 лет назад

totally agree Mister The Geoff. I've never touched another Apple II E+ or Apple-Basic since them days in school. I won't say it was totally useless for some 'concepts' that were taught, just that it could have been with something most of the industry uses instead of some niche system that is now a dead dinosaur. P.S. thankfully for my mother (in regards to college), thankfully the professor worked at DEC, so some of the students would just go to the Professor's office at DEC to learn on a 'Real Computer' back in them days (1988/1989 ish). I was the tag-along kid doodling on napkins down in the DEC cafeteria with some other people there, while my mom and other students learned on a VAX. They had no idea what was brewing down in the cafeteria, lol.

@misterthegeoff9767 5 лет назад

@@Zarcondeegrissom Yeah if the Raspberry Pi had been a thing back when I was learning how to program a 6802 to play a tune I'm sure that we'd have been using them instead of some weird propriety thing that had been knocking around the lab since the 1980s.

@Bmoney861 5 лет назад

This was long, This was made longer by how complex this piece was, having to go back and make sure I understood the concepts. This was very well needed in the community. Thank you Steve and Team! There will be a beer waiting for you @ The Corner bar soon haha!

@Gunni1972 5 лет назад

Please use the GN beerglass in blue, with the golden Rim. Thx.

@BrianThomas 2 года назад

Gosh, this was done a couple of years ago. I have to say that Linus Sebastian did a great job explaining TDP, but You guys went above and beyond in explaining TDP. I commend you and your team for gathering the details that matter. I love that you're not afraid of formulas as well. True engineers at work. I love this channel, and so doesn't 1.7 million other people.

@LFC303606ACID 5 лет назад

OMG...Limmy on Gamers Nexus?...never expected to see that.

@406mill 5 лет назад

It'll be Dee Dee fae Yoker next week! :D

@wsjudd 5 лет назад

@scottrobinson4611 5 лет назад

Les Porter? Did your name always rhyme wae Yoker or did it used to be Smith or something? Best day of my life...

@powderedwater67 5 лет назад

Just put your cpu under wa'ah, pure wa'ah. problem solved.

@filipealves6602 5 лет назад

Thank you for that GN, always nice to remember that video. :3

@sbrewski27 5 лет назад

Im literally blown away by how in depth your work went on this topic - Thanks.

@turkepic3637 5 лет назад

PC users:What is TDP? Companies: *WeLl iT dEpeNdS*

@zeroclockgaming 5 лет назад

iT DePends

@turkepic3637 5 лет назад

@@zeroclockgaming said everyone when asked "Intel vs Ryzen"

@MrSongib 5 лет назад

KEKW

@turkepic3637 5 лет назад

@@blueblade455 tech is like a religion

@dakoderii4221 4 года назад

TDP = Total Dollar Pull on your wallet.

@SickPrid3 5 лет назад

TDP should be listed as how much energy you need to dissipate to keep it at a stable-safe temperature while maintaining maximum performance for prolonged period of time (not 10seconds) power consumption should be listed separately

@Wizongod 4 года назад

When "prolonged time" is brought into the picture, it means "steady state" in a thermal consideration, and with all steady state calculations, heat in = heat out, hence it is basically the same amount as power consumption. That means, once we know the power consumption for a CPU, it would help us better pick the cooler we need. Do note there's a caveat to this: ALL coolers dissipate more heat the greater the temperature difference between them and the environment, i.e. a CPU running at 90C with an air cooler stuck on to it blowing ambient air at 30C would have a 60C difference, which would dissipate more power than if the CPU was running at 60C with an ambient of 30C which results in a 30C difference. So it's also extremely important to know the target temperatures you're intending to run at - both your case air temperature or water temperature if you're using liquid cooled, and the CPU temperature, of which it gets more complicated because the CPU temperature readout in software is the die temperature and not the metal casing temperature of the chip, so there's yet one more piece of information to source for.

@anonymouseniller6688 2 года назад

The stable-safe temperature depends on what the ambient temperature is + heat sink characteristics. IMO all they have to do is to list the maximum actual electrical power draw when under 100% load without throttling. As long as the temperature is within limits, it doesn't depend on the actual temperature value. In a very... very vague sense, the purpose of something like the TDP would be to design for a certain electrical power upper limit based on what temperature limits must be maintained BUT it's still useless without knowing the variables an seems unnecessarily complicated. Long story short, I think the TDP is just a marketing number. The formula is just an attempt to give it some credibility if someone questions it. The idea is that you'll see the artificial complexity and give up examining further.

@TechWithSean 5 лет назад

TDP = Thermals? Duh, Performance!

@ZAR556 5 лет назад

That's oversimplified

@mho... 5 лет назад

i like " thermal dependent performance" being AMD's new slogan!

@MunkeyChips 5 лет назад

Oh yes, a deep-dive. My favorite

@katerwhall1865 5 лет назад

When a "deep dive" on any other channel is standard fare on this channel, deep really does mean deep. good work :}

@KTSpeedruns 5 лет назад

Sounds like the T in TDP should stand for take-this-with-a-grain-of-salt.

@farawaythrower 3 года назад

it really should

@not12listen 5 лет назад

Absolutely thrilled with this level of detail! Very happy to already being a patreon supporter! Now I just need to get a mod mat... "4x2 - in Freedom Units" - priceless!

@Soldierblue211 5 лет назад

OMG that 8700k looks like its been in battle!!!!

@WayStedYou 5 лет назад

8700k Battle Scarred

@mrognib311 5 лет назад

I've only been a viewer for a month or so but your content is awesome. Thanks for your efforts.

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

Welcome aboard! Always great to have new viewers.

@ikbenlars 5 лет назад

Had this on in the background... Man so much words that don't mean what they sound like... Conclusion: start with the anwser and adjust the formula accordingly. Will give it another watch tonight! Thanks for the indept pieces of content!!

@joelperry 5 лет назад

I'm really glad you guys do videos like this one, I really enjoy being informed of shady practices of the vendors we rely on to tell us information about their own products. It is not easy to find this information online with any reliability of the authenticity. I appreciate the fact that your team takes the time out to actually check the details of the information provided for your videos. Your channel is amazing and hope you keep it up long term, I don't know where I would go if you disappeared.

@blackknight50277621 5 лет назад

Is it bad that I can say it's a GN video just by glancing at the title in notidication?

@Bass.Player 5 лет назад

What does "GN" mean? "notidication" This I don't think is a word?

@optiquest86 5 лет назад

@@Bass.Player Gamers Nexus and *in the notification

@Bass.Player 5 лет назад

@@optiquest86 What are attempting to say? Try a complete sentence if you want me to understand...

@JesusMeza3 5 лет назад

@@Bass.Player This video was uploaded to the Gamers Nexus RU-vid channel so we can most likely guess that 'GN' means Gamers Nexus. 'notidication' most likely means 'notification' as in a standard QWERTY keyboard layout the letter d is right next to the f key, meaning that he most likely pressed it by accident when typing.

@Bass.Player 5 лет назад

@@JesusMeza3 Thanks

@joannaatkins822 5 лет назад

Excellent work guys. I think I would have just walked into busy traffic after spending so much time dealing with PR paperwork and Reddit.

@no1bandfan 5 лет назад

When in doubt, go overkill on the cooling.

@AmartharDrakestone 5 лет назад

Not "when in doubt". Always go overkill on the cooling.

@MrRourk 5 лет назад

Squeeze that third fan on the Fuma 2

@laurelsporter 4 года назад

Macho, Ninja, and DH15 are minimums.

@chrisdpratt 4 года назад

The beautiful part of modern processors is that you can't really melt them. If things get too hot, they just ratchet down the clocks and power draw (or just flat out turn off) to keep thermals under control. Therefore, your best bet is install a cooler, stress the CPU, and see if it throttles. If it doesn't throttle, your cooler is sufficient. If it does, get a bigger/better cooler, rinse and repeat. Sounds like a lot of work, but there's really not that much variation in overall cooler performance within product lines. As long as it's a reputable company, you can generally guess the model of cooler, based on the tier of the CPU. Something like a 3600 can use the budget model, 3700x would require mid tier, and 3900x would be top tier.

@greatwavefan397 2 года назад

I'm AIO cooling my i7-6700T, if possible.

@alecjahn 5 лет назад

Well f-ing dissected! Thanks, GN for going this far down the rabbit hole in your research and eloquently sharing your results. Loads of work and we appreciate it!

@WarisAmirMohammad 5 лет назад

AMD and Intel: He's turned the weans against us!

@givemeajackson 5 лет назад

Steve: YOU HAVE ALREADY DONE THAT YOURSELF!

@asderr77 5 лет назад

weans

@Zrogdule 5 лет назад

Thank you GN crew for continuing to evolve your test methodologies(insert Jayz pronunciation) and your "subtle" humor and ambivalence.. With such a small team: you've gotten attention from some of the biggest corporations in the world. I never doubt that you will be neutral, regardless of the sponsor.Cheers

@chesshooligan1282 4 года назад

"The CPU's electric consumption measured in watts is not the same as the CPU's dissipated heat measured in watts because our processors are so efficient that they convert most of the energy into calculations." -- AMD

@nu1x 4 года назад

When an electron in our CPU finishes calculating, it happily ceases to exist, removing its energy from this universe and doesn't go on bouncing into the silicon like a bandit.

@ethzero 4 года назад

Goddamn. My brain queued up the Limmy clip, then you guys played it. Kudos ♥️

@seven9766 5 лет назад

A few words from the land of thermodynamics, to confuse anyone who isnt yet: Heat transfer is governed by thermal resistance (ie cooler and TIM performance) and temperature difference between heatsink and heat source. If a given CPU has a heat output of 100 Watts (For worst case look at the electrical power consumed, thats the cpus heat output.) Now: There are two major heat transfers that you have to worry about: From the CPU to the Cooler (Via TIM), and from the cooler to the outside air. Now comes the key part: The Heat flow (Measured in Watts) is proportional to temp difference. 20° Ambient, with the cooler being able to do 10W/°C, 100 Watts of Power into the cooler would mean a cooler temp of 30°C. Then, the CPU has to be hotter than the Cooler to put in 100 Watts into the cooler. Lets say, the TIM is awesome, with a conductance of 100W/°C (The actual formula works with resistance per Meter times the Length heat has to travel), Then the CPU has to be at 31°C to put out all heat. If the ambient temp goes up, your temps rise linearly. If your Power Consumption rises, the cpu and cooler have to get hotter to transfer the new load. You could push 500Watts through an intel stock cooler. But if the outside is 20°C, the cooler would be way hotter than cpu safe temps. Last thing: watercooling allows to use bigger coolers than an air heatsink might allow (Space), and the advantage of dumping the heat to the outside air. My cpu sits at 40°C under full cpu load. If i am gaming and my gpu increases case temp, the cpu goes to 60°C bc of more heat. Water can evade this problem. if done correctly unlike the 92mm tower aio going in the place of a tower heatsink. That thing is no better than a similar size air cooler.

@krissolshaq4934 5 лет назад

It's ridiculous that when I work on my electronic projects I look into datasheets to find devices' Tjmax and junction to case thermal resistance, I look at thermal paste's thermal resistance and I calculate what heatsink I should get to achieve the target temperature at junction. But when it comes to building a PC all the engineering knowledge goes down the gutter because of plenty of misconceptions, misleading numbers some voodoo factors and marketing bullshit which confuses everyone. Can you imagine what if all electronics design companies had to measure and verify EVERYTHING on their own rather than just go to manufacturers' datasheets to obtain necessary information? That would be nuts.

@coolrezaee56 5 лет назад

38min! We need a TL;DW for this. But love the work you put into man.

@DamienWhite 5 лет назад

Basically, Intel, AMD and CPU cooler manufactures all calculate TDP differently so Steve is saying look at CPU cooler manufacture websites for compatible processors for their coolers and review websites.

@coolrezaee56 5 лет назад

@@DamienWhite you are a legend mate!

@GoddamLuke 5 лет назад

8:07 anyone with any knowledge in basic physics would know that two variables can very well measure different things and be different despite having the same unit of measurement. For example work (W) and energy (E) are totally different measurements but they have the same unit joules (J). So just because two things have the same unit, it doesn't necessarily mean they are both the same.

@laurelsporter 4 года назад

Technical ally, buy the energy used in a processor to switch transistors, and that is converted to radiation, is very small. It will be far below any user's or pro reviewer's margin of error.

@chesshooligan1282 4 года назад

Sound like you don't have a basic knowledge of physics then. A watt is a unit of energy. Energy can exist in different forms (kinetic, potential, thermal, electrical, etc). When you convert that energy from one form to another, you're doing work. The amount of energy that you convert is the amount of work that you do. Work is just energy, energy converted. Saying work and energy are different things is as stupid as saying a metre of distance and a metre travelled are different things or a dollar in your pocket is different from a dollar you actually spend. Yes, work and energy are the same thing. You're wrong, Gamers Nexus is right. And if you continue watching the video, he explains (correctly) how all the electrical energy consumed by the CPU gets converted into heat (there's no such thing as a watt of computer calculations), so in the long run the electrical energy consummed by the CPU is going to be equal to the thermal energy dissipated.

@jacodj5413 4 года назад

Energy = joule. Watt = joule/second. Thermodynamics, as energy is converted from 1 form to another, some energy is lost as heat. In this case, practically all of it. Sure entropy also comes into the mix here somewhere reference 2nd law of thermodynamics

@anonymoususer69 5 лет назад

Was not expecting a GN video to help me verify answers from my energy systems analysis test

@ColonelRPG 5 лет назад

The kilogram (mass) of steel is heavier (weight) than the kilogram (mass) of feathers, because steel is denser (density) than features, so buoyancy will make the features lighter (weight).

@valije 5 лет назад

Exactly, Archimedes should not be forgotten.

@DOGGEDProductions 5 лет назад

Awesome! Thanks to GN for taking the time. More please!

@SteadyShadow 5 лет назад

AND TECH JESUS HAS BLESS US WITH HIS KNOWLEDGE AGAIN.

@airplanenut6242 5 лет назад

This was a really great comprehensive video. The GN tours of cooler factories were awesome as well. Thanks!

@brads2041 5 лет назад

My head exploded about mid way through but I do like the kind of technical content you guys produce.

@andydbedford 5 лет назад

GN: thank you so much for this work, today I’ve really learnt something as I always thought you could compare TDP between AMD and Intel, oh how wrong as a consumer I was, and this is the fundamental problem average consumers wouldn’t have a clue, this is seriously good work 👍

@jagc2206 5 лет назад

W doesn't stand for electricity, it stands for joules per second. This can be any form of energy not just electrons.

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

Yeah. We said that. The reference to "electrical watts" was because of AMD's phrasing.

@MrStealYoBeef 5 лет назад

@@anasbinmuslim Would you like to point out how the hell a CPU is getting anything other than electrical power? And how it's outputting anything other than heat? Would you like to show us all how your CPU is turning electricity into light and kinetic energy? The CPU takes electricity and only electricity. It outputs heat and only heat. We are able to get use out of *how* it changes electrical energy into heat energy because it's going through a CPU, but that doesn't change the fact that it only inputs electricity and outputs heat. And if you want to get technical, sure, there could be some energy that turns into light or is dissipated in other ways, but it's extremely minor. The exact values of energy input to energy output may vary by an extremely small amount. That amount isn't large enough to truly make a difference though.

@chnapo1 4 года назад

I really appreciate that GN brings in some basic physics and calculations. I like that people at GN understand physics and GN is actually one of few channels that I trust with formulas and calculations. Thank you very much for this video!

@ravenshrike 5 лет назад

The most interesting thing is that AMD assumes a case that maintains 42 C ambient in presumably a 30 C room. Time to start cranking up the heater for your AMD CPU reviews GN.

@coinexchange1761 5 лет назад

That's actually not a bad idea. Steve should do this to see how the two major companies (AMD/Intel) deal with less than ideal situations. The code that defines their performance characteristics in different conditions are written differently and therefore should yield interesting results.

@stefangeorgeclaudiu 5 лет назад

AMD does not assume it. AMD's rated TDP is calculated at these measurements. If your case has a X temperature, ambient is Y temperature, and your heatsink is able to dissipate Z watts then the CPU will consume the amount stated in the TDP. Needless to say, transistors in the silicon die change characteristics according to temperature and use different amounts of energy at different temperature. Also, the CPU might throttle according to your heatsink's performance at dissipating thermal energy. You can't have a universal measurement of CPU power usage regardless of the environment it's tested in.

@misterthegeoff9767 5 лет назад

Given they've defined case in this as the cpu's heat spreader I'm assuming 'ambient' in this case is the temperature of the air around the heat sink inside your case, not the air in your bedroom outside the case. Which means for a lot of cases without decent airflow 42 C is pretty ambitious.

@Mandragara 5 лет назад

@@coinexchange1761 Heat transfer only depends on the difference in temperature between the heatsink and the air, not the absolute numbers

@coinexchange1761 5 лет назад

@@Mandragara I haven't said otherwise? Did you read what I wrote?

@BAdventures 5 лет назад

The industry needs a consistent power consumption measurement. Whether TPD or a new acronym. Great work guys 👍

@Lazarosaliths 5 лет назад

Really great article! I try to see the power consumption of parts before picking coolers! Making a build perform at the level you want is so complicated its not only about tdp and cpu cooler, its about noise, ventilation ,clocks and volts!!!!

@freefalcon23 5 лет назад

Oh, there's that Pentium II Klamath CPU trying to impersonate a heatsink!

@vimmaster1526 5 лет назад

you're doing huge job preparing each video, thank for that!

@stolz_ar 5 лет назад

This is one of the best videos I have ever seen in my life about ANYTHING. I love you.

@mfdsuk 5 лет назад

And yet power supply manufacturer's all reference TDP when recommending you what size PSU to buy....

@MrStealYoBeef 5 лет назад

This is why my rule of thumb is to always at least double the TDP of the components when buying a PSU. That, and it runs cooler, quieter, and more efficient.

@mfdsuk 5 лет назад

@@MrStealYoBeef right, but if you look at for example Seasonic one of the biggest PSU makes, on their website they recommend to use 90% of TDP - which sounds completely wrong based on Steve's investigation.

@williamforbes6919 5 лет назад

@@mfdsuk Seasonic PSUs have been known to be insanely overbuilt though. My SS-X650KM3 can push upwards of 800w despite being a 650w PSU. Of course I never load it that hard, but it is interesting to know.

@laurelsporter 4 года назад

That was useless even back when AMD and Intel used realistic TDPs.

@Lishtenbird 4 года назад

@@MrStealYoBeef PSUs have efficiency curves, they are most efficient at around 50% load, and are way less efficient when considerably underloaded.

@KX36 5 лет назад

So from an electrical engineering point of view: The formula is TDP = delta temperature / thermal resistance. This is very similar to equations electrical engineers use every day to specify hearsinks. You would design for a whole chain of thermal interfaces from the heat source (the die) to the ultimate heat sink (the air). Thermal resistances of each layer add up (die to IHS to paste to heatsink to air). The outcome of the formula in electrical engineering is a sentence like "the combined thermal resistance of the paste and heatsink must be less than X degrees C per Watt". The problem comes as power is an integral over time rather than an instantaneous thing. ( i.e. Joules per second) and depending on the timespan (1 second? 1 hour? 1 year?) the power will be different because of things like turbo. So AMD and intel have to make a design decision as to what power rating to use in this specification, and this single estimation is called TDP. In EE, the delta of temperature from die to ambient would typically be conservative and use the maximum safe die temperature and approximate the worst case ambient air temperature. (As performance of a CPU changes dramatically with temperature, they could substitude "maximum safe temperature" with "optimum temperature for peak performance"). I can see why they'd specifiy a different ambient air temperature for server parts for instance. Theta of die to IHS is controlled and know by AMD/intel. Theta of IHS to air is not and therefore they must make this recommendation to a heatsink manufacturer. I think the whole thing would be much simpler if AMD and intel therefore simply specified a maximum theta_ca for 3rd party heatsinks and kept the estimated "thermal" power used in the equation to themselves. Or better still, specify a range of theta_ca (based on a range of ambient temperature and a fixed optimum die temperature) which the heatsink+fan should completely cover by way of its variable fan speed.

@JohnnyKusiga 5 лет назад

After about 2 mins into this video I lost any clue what anything really meant that was talked about but kept watching.

@v3xx3r 5 лет назад

I love the longer format videos. I'm always looking for more depth in tech tuber videos.

@Ianochez 5 лет назад

ACTUALLY, I needed this content...

@crazy8sdrums 5 лет назад

Great research and expose, Gamers Nexus! TY for your diligence!

@magottyk 5 лет назад

You're never going to get an exact match for TDP when the CPU is using that for its own internal operation for frequency variables whilst coolers are looking at how well the cooler can dissipate the heat from its base at a specific set of numbers. Thermal dissipation of a heat sink is variable depending on conditions and the delta between the base and ambient temps required. Higher cfm of air flow for dissipation is not linear and has diminishing returns, so any given heatsink's TDP changes depending on the fan attached and the positive air pressure at the fan intake which changes between open air and a cases air flow and ambient (hot boxes vs HAF case). Cooler manufacturers can make it easy by setting a standard for measuring thermal dissipation with a set of fixed variables. E.g. The ability to maintain a 30°C delta @20°C open air @ the fan @70% RPM. There once was a kind of defacto standard before CPU's started getting fancy with TDP variables when they only had rudimentary thermal sensors (edge temp only) with turbo fixed by guesstimates of thermal junction temps in relation to edge temps. Accordingly we've seen cooler manufacturers change cooler ratings over time which conflates the ability to know which cooler you should buy. As CPU temps have been allowed to go higher, so has the delta increased which in turn changes what the thermal dissipation of the cooler actually is. A delta of 20°C (i.e. cooler base @40°C @20°C ambient) TDP is lower than a delta of 40°C (i.e. cooler base @60°C @20°C ambient). Thus a cooler once rated @120W TDP is now rated @160W TDP, though nothing has changed except the allowed delta between base and ambient air temps. There's also a delta variable between heat spreader temps and cooler base due to the thermal paste/interface medium used and its thickness. So where a cooler once was rated to maintain a CPU edge temp of ~45°C @120W TDP, they're now rated to maintain a 60°C edge temp @160W TDP. Same cooler new variables and a whole bunch of confusion. Personally I just overkill the cooler for the conditions as I prefer lower temps and quieter fan speeds whilst giving headroom for a decent amount of manual overclocking which turns off the CPU's thermal and power algorithms leaving just tjmax cutoffs.

@epicshadowkrazee 5 лет назад

Great video, very informative, as always. Though I simultaneously love and hate how all of the CPU's pictured were covered in fingerprints / thermal paste. like, "Oh, sweet! Those have actually been used." and "Man, why didn't they clean them off at all before shooting them up close."

@teddygoboom1 5 лет назад

Damn, going to have to watch some air cooler reviews. Sure wish a trustworthy source would do some scientific testing with all these noctua competitors coming out recently *cough*

@Ty-ri7dy 5 лет назад

Noctua has no competitors. Once they go RGB they will be unstoppable.

@chesshooligan1282 4 года назад

@@Ty-ri7dy Dunno, man, you can buy a Chinese cooler for something like a quarter of the price that will keep your CPU only a couple of degrees warmer than a Noctua and that may be a couple of decibels louder. Your CPU won't give a shit and, unless you use your PC in a soundproof music studio, your ear won't even notice. I've got nothing against fanboyism -- and in the cooling world Noctua seems to be the equivalent of Apple -- but the majority of us don't need the absolute best and prefer to spend our money more wisely. Each to their own, I suppose.

@QactisX 4 года назад

I just keep buying Corsair liquid coolers and keep having a good time, just use a program like COREtemp to watch your C's

@bananya6020 4 года назад

@@chesshooligan1282 arctic is p good

@MIkegrimm2 4 года назад

Great video, lots of mechanical engineering thought went into this. Looks like my next air cooler will be something your channel or the manufacturer recommends. Nicely done!!

@integer0verload948 5 лет назад

TDP = the biggest CLC that will fit in my case.🤫

@rcradiator 5 лет назад

Same for me, but instead it's the biggest heatsink I can shove in a case.

@integer0verload948 5 лет назад

@@rcradiator it's not about the tool, it's about the size. It's always about the size....

@fulldnbboy 5 лет назад

@@integer0verload948 its not about the size... Stick faster rotating fan on the cooler and yoy get higher tdp just by changing fan, ofc the heatsink itself must be same sized prior fan change. So no, 95 tdp can mean bigger cpu cooler but can mean that you can get smaller one but much more noisy fan.

@integer0verload948 5 лет назад

@@fulldnbboy lol yeah just getting it blown on harder works also.

@morphes 5 лет назад

10/10 would watch again. You guys are awesome, well worded and super interesting. Thank you!

@alexanderdaum8053 5 лет назад

The TDP formula is basically just P = ΔT / Rth, so it just says if you have a given cooler and a given ambient temperature how much power can you dissipate to get a specific case temperature. So it's logical that it goes up when the cooler improves, because you can dissipate more power while getting the same temperature change.

@DerekJones 5 лет назад

Excellent work here. Clearly I'm not the only one that thinks your analysis and critique is f*cking spot on! As said before...there is not an agreed upon standard for measuring TPD, and there needs to be. Who can actually be trusted not to fudge shit for their own marketing though?

@jasongooden917 5 лет назад

Was that guy serious about the steel and the feathers

@themistaken9571 5 лет назад

No he's a scottish comedian called limmy.

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

It's from a funny video. The dry delivery is great!

@jon-williammurphy9780 3 года назад

When developing products that have plastic injection molded parts the tooling cost ($5k-30k) is often amortized into the part cost. I learned the term "amortize" when I started developing products.

@cotes42 5 лет назад

8:24. "what's heavier a kilogram of steel or a kilogram of feathers". the answer was steel? lol lol lol what is that video from? Limmy's show, which? hahahaha

@whelmy 5 лет назад

ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Qwr6_015ROo.html

@WesselLemmer 4 года назад

Truly excellent stuff... I cant believe its the same GN that botched a lapping test.

@TechyBen 5 лет назад

"A kilogram of feathers in Watts!!!"

@ErnestPworrell88 5 лет назад

Great job steve even though occasionally you go over my head i always feel like i've walked away more informed you're doing the consumer i huge service.

@andreassheriff 5 лет назад

I think you made some people's heads explode. I hope there isn't a test at the end of the week. Good episode.

@kelrune 5 лет назад

Steve: There are no RGB CUPs , Yet ME: *FACE PALM* Also Me: Dont give them any ideas

@rickbishop5987 5 лет назад

Great information. It is frustrating that such a simple matter as cooling solutions remain ambiguous and confusing for the consumer.

@Neumah 5 лет назад

"There's no RGB CPU's, yet" good God if that ever happens I will shoot myself.

@wax88 5 лет назад

promotions.newegg.com/nepro/19-0630/index.html Newegg will like to have a word with you ;P

@redsquirrelftw 4 года назад

Oh it's coming lol. Actually I could see them add RGB to the edges of the CPU so it lights up from under the heat sink. With that will come yet ANOTHER standard so you need yet more special software. Intel and AMD will of course have their own standards too. I feel dirty just for thinking this.

@rushnerd 5 лет назад

The classic Limmy clip got a laugh. Very informative video, GN really is the best tech channel on YT.

@p3rp351 5 лет назад

As an accountant, the best part about this video is watching Steve stumble over the word “amortize” and turning to Wikipedia for a definition. Also, his frustration with the fact that a formula can be solved for any of the variables within it. Great vid 👍

@GamersNexus 5 лет назад

We have 50% viewership outside of English-speaking (primarily) countries. It is actually important to define. It wasn't for me. I use accountants too, man. You must know that running a business would have you running into accounting terminology quite frequently.

@dunastrig1889 5 лет назад

Great video guys! Tons of great info in here!

@Ephem13 5 лет назад

Noctua has a list of what CPUs work their heatsinks and how well it works with it. I use this and how different coolers compared to Noctua's coolers per several channels and forum posts while also considering the particular case I'll be using for a build. It's time consuming but I think it also gives me the ability to make more educated choices vs. relying on something as convoluted as TDP.

@SonGoku-97 5 лет назад

Damn dude 3 weeks? thank you. good job as always guys also you may have just become the authority on reddit TDP posts lol

@storm-sf5rj 5 лет назад

a very good and in depth video and made me realize that fitting a NH-D15 to my 2700X was the right move

@blipman17 2 года назад

Allright, so the real number we need is thermal resistance (kelvin per watt) of the cooler and use that to create a graph of watts dissipated per temperature delta. Then we need reliable energy consumption numbers so we can tell how much energy must be dissipated through the heatsink (I'm ignorigng heat dissipation through other means for now) and calculate the steady state temperature delta of a specific CPU with a cooler being utilised at 100% load.

@swagatamukherjee6155 5 лет назад

he is better in explaining than many of my teachers

@LarsBars17 5 лет назад

Loved this video, I will have to watch this again to understand better. I struggled with a lot of the formulas and equations. There were a lot of missed opportunities for visual explanations that were filled with b-roll. There was a previous GN video that had really cool 3D effects to show how cooling works, I wish some of those could have been updated and used here. Also please give us some hypothetical examples. You say that these numbers can be changed to fit the marketing, so show us! What would it look like if the 3700X had shipped with a Wraith Stealth? Could AMD have marketed it as 45w by changing the numbers in the equation? It's hard to apply these concepts when the explanation stays only in the theoretical realm. Maybe revisit when 3950X comes out and the inevitable discussion on power consumption is happening. Thanks for your hard work GN. You guys rock.

@alexei456 5 лет назад

In conclusion: we still don't know what TDP is, but it's pretty much useless on the cpu vendor side, better trust cpu cooler manufactures, they also don't know what TDP is, but have decades of experience preventing your cpu from turning into a frying pan. Loved the video, thanks for making it.

@husamal-kuran731 5 лет назад

The formula presented is not meant to calculate the CPU's TDP. But rather to choose an appropriate cooler. For example, if you live in an area with higher ambient temperature, you'd need a cooler with lower theta. At 10:30 it is clearly stated that TDP represents the sum of power consumed for all processor voltage rails at the maximum processor operating temperature. (because the processor draws more current when hot). AMD does target nice TDP numbers that are multiples of 5W when designing a processor. But this is only for processor designers to worry about.

@conion6524 5 лет назад

Thx GN. As always I comprehend 10% of the content... but that’s 100% more than the total of other tech channels.

@wakesake 5 лет назад

Because vids like these have Huge Respect for this channel

@randommm1516 5 лет назад

But Steve you still haven't given us a perfect reading for your Gamer's Nexus desk mat. No wonder Paul was disappointed. Not to mention the high reflectivity index in the area where screws are kept(Do note, this caused the product to perform badly in the eye strain test, as suggested by Paul).

@michael53667 4 года назад

It should mean (for the Cooler makers) that it can hold cool enough the Procesors of 95W Termal Design (Power) so that they don't get in-to heat/trotheling when iGPU and CPU are at 100% (maximum performance) for long periods of time, like in Gaming for example.

@ec1021501 5 лет назад

IMO this kind of video is what makes GN stand out. Great work.

@GodOfGamingBG 5 лет назад

a complete list with all CPUs and graphics cards, and the corresponding actual electrical power draw, does this exist? If not, why is no one trying to make one? That would be endlessly useful! :)

@chassecourt8824 5 лет назад

Suggestion : Channel that reviews solely CPU coolers under very specific conditions and supplies a graphed curve as a result, testing would involve putting the cooler in an enclosure of say 1m3 and then applying temperature to the bottom of the cold plate in 5 degree increments for 1 min up to a maximum temp of 100.c then lowering the temp by 5.c per min back down again to end up with a bell curve of measurements over time, a separate site would be setup to test processors in which the same sort of testing would be done with the cpu connected to a setup that could measure temperature over time increments in the same way to provide a bell curve then you could simply compare bell curves visually to see what cooler best meets your cpus output this could be standardised testing and eliminate bullshit TDP values and would be a massive benefit to consumers.

@fiskfisk33 5 лет назад

YES, THANKYOU Heat generated in watts = Electricity consumed in watts - a negligible amount of work done and to keep it att the wanted temperature you will need a cooler that: Dissipates "Heat generated in watts" @ Desired max temperature and ambient temperature

@larrygall5831 5 лет назад

The higher core count CPUs, lets say 3900x vs 3950x, _usually_ the higher core count has _lower_ max clocks. This may not be true, though, and if the 3950x had an equal or even a higher max clock speed, it will likely throttle faster (sooner). In the end, it's not really important enough to base anything off of. Read reviews, see what coolers perform well / not well with a particular CPU, understand if you overclock, these numbers are out the window, anyway.. just like the heat it will produce. Thanks to Steve for diving deep into this with little reward at the end. I'm glad he does this stuff.

@ProjectMysticApostolate 5 лет назад

Thank you Prof. Burke!

@jamerican347 4 года назад

29:15 Technically, all the power going into the CPU does not become heat. Some of that energy is used to do work, move electrons from Source to Drain, among other things. Heat results from inefficiencies in the design and inherent in the silicon chemistry. See Indirect Band-Gap Semiconductors (Silicon is one of them).

@Hobbes4ever 5 лет назад

would be interesting to see the power consumption of the 9900K at the same clock speed as the 3700X

@lynxissiodorensis2319 5 лет назад

Yes, in-depth information, the more the better. Thank You.

@harbingerdawn 5 лет назад

29:00 Power consumption does not equal temperature. Power consumption equals heat generation, which can only be used as a proxy for temperature when comparing two CPUs with identical die areas. If you have one CPU pulling 90 watts, and another pulling 45 watts, but the latter has a die with half the area, they will both have a similar temperature (temperature is power consumption divided by die area). Note to readers: The above is meant to illustrate the basic concept, and there is a lot more nuance and complexity when comparing two real-world CPUs (is power consumption spread evenly across the die? What is the thermal interface between the die and the IHS? What is the thickness, area, and composition of the IHS? What cooler is being used, and what TIM is used to interface it with the IHS? Etc.).

@lagrangemechanics 5 лет назад

The mechanism of thermal transfer within the context of computer cooling solution has been made more difficult than it needs to be within the community. Thermodynamics is not the easiest subject, but the concept pertaining to cooling a computer processor is usually confined to a few basics. Heat is a flow of energy. Temperature is NOT a measurement of heat. Heat flows form high temp to low temp. The bigger the delta between the temps between two locations, the fast the heat transfer between them. That's it. You can find it all summarised in a single linear first order differential equation called Fourier's law. Processor generates heat because of course it does, it's drawing energy from the wall. Energy cannot be destroyed, so any energy you draw has to go somewhere. If the heat cannot dissipate quickly enough, temp goes up until the the temp on the CPU has a high enough delta with ambient to transfer the energy you are drawing per second quickly enough to the surrounding air. If you look at AMD's TDP formula in the video from the context of a person designing the Wraith cooler in AMD, then the formula actually makes more sense. The person designing the Wraith cooler came up with a solution, but then they asked, "how much heat load can this sucker actually handle?". So they made measurements as per listed in the formula and the resulting number would then represent how much the Wraith cooler can actually handle. So that AMD formula is really more about the cooler rather than about the heat loads. It just so happens that information is not exactly what the consumers really need. What the consumers need is how much power the CPU actually draws. When it comes to Precision Boost/turbo, both AMD's and Intel's design philosophy actually makes sense. You can have a cooler than only handles say 105 W, so if the CPU's power draw stays dead flat at 105 W then nothing would change for all eternity; but if the CPU suddenly draws 140 W for 20 ms it won't result in a thermal runaway, it would probably result in a temporary spike in temp then things would go back to normal. It's a lot like frame time can spike but you don't see the average frame rate changes; only in this case the effect is more beneficial and you can exploit that to allow the CPU to draw more power momentarily without significantly needing a much bigger cooler for a 20 ms workload.