An Atheist in the Realm of Myth | Stephen Fry | EP 169 

Shownotes: [0:18] Jordan Peterson introduces the episode's guest Stephen Fry whose list of titles and accomplishments is quite astonishing. [1:33] Stephen starts the show with concerns over the culture wars that seem to be dividing the western world and alienating people from one another [4:30] Jordan talks about his public reputation for pointing out the excesses of the radical political left in western culture leading back into the discussion of the importance of maintaining free speech. Stephen believes that the moderate left is almost and repulsive to the extreme left and their obvious opponents the far right are at this point. It's become very unfashionable to be a moderate of any type. [11:00] Jordan directs discussion toward the role Stephen Fry had to play in the atheist movement. Stephen outlines his alignment with Empiricism more than Rationalism when looking at the world and it's problems. [16:00] Examining the strange way that Empiricism doesn't always need a rational answer to function effectively. [21:00] The truths found in literature, fiction, drama, movies, and general narrative that we find so compelling even though we don't necessarily understand why? Stephen uses some examples from egyptian and greek mythology to show how narrative has been passing truth from one generation far before writing and science (science is still just catching up). [30:00] Jordan brings Stephen back to the question of why he feels his perspective differs from his atheist friend Richard Dawkins. Highlighting the incredible human capacity for wonder. [34:00] Jordan and Stephen examining the learning process of humankind using sacrifice to obtain some future good [44:00] Is the corruption of the christian church intrinsic in the philosophy or the people who follow the religion? When looking at all traditions, where do you draw the line on the good intention of what the tradition represents and the people who corrupted that vision? [53:00] Jordan brings up the novel the Brothers Karamazov that Stephen quotes concerning the injustice inherent with the possibility of a God who created a world with so much suffering and injustice in it. Jordan postures that resentment of such a being does not seem to have any functional utility? [1:01:00] The argument of a higher mode of being. looking at the development of morality in children through playing games, examining other behavioral science in humans, rats, mice, and other species.. [1:11:30] Back to the distinction between Stephen Fry and Richard Dawkins from Jordans perspective. Jordan expresses the creative artistic domain is more unique when regarding atheists. Stephen points to the importance of things that convey truth that are not strictly rational. The two discuss the functionality and rational absurdity of a constitutional monarchy form of government. [1:19:00] Talking about the "gods within" and how different religions and thinkers have tried to solve the puzzle of what some call conscience? [1:32:00] Stephen tells one last tale emphasizing his point that story/drama/narative are some of the most powerful ways to bring people together and should not be trivialised when discussing serious topics in societies. [1:37:00] Wrapping up the show. Thanking the guest Stephen Fry for his participation.

“It’s a strange paradox, that the liberals are illiberal in their demand for liberality. They are exclusive in their demand for inclusivity. They are homogenous in their demand for heterogeneity. They are somehow un-diverse in their call for diversity - you can be diverse, but not diverse in your opinions and in your language and in your behaviour. And that’s a terrible pity." Stephen Fry. Thank you for being you.

Just an idea for the production crew for this podcast. It would be great to have a split screen so we could see the body language of the person being spoken to. I think it would really enhance the depth of understanding in the audience.

Two extremely intelligent people. Respecting each others views and allowing each other to get points across.

I'm retiring next month. And I'm a bit nervous about how to keep up with my kids.

One man wakes you with the power of his words, the other enthralls you with beauty of his speech. Both leave you smarter, and perhaps even a little bit happier. This is a treat.

Stephen Fry could narrate my murder, as it happened, and I'd still be enthralled.

I'm loving this: two intelligent men with different point of views arguing their different points without ever looking down at the other, or the other's beliefs. We need more conversations like this.

The world desperately needs more Stephen Fry's in it. Intellectual and well read enough to converse properly with experts in their fields, combined with the rare ability to not only pass the information on to the masses in way that doesn't make them feel small and stupid, but to also then think and wonder about it themselves after he is gone It's his genuine interest in things that makes them interesting to others. I think of him as a wonderful teacher in communication.

If I could sit in a pub and simply listen to two people have a conversation, it would be these two.

This conversation should continue as a monthly podcast.... I could listen to their mental jiu-jitsu without ceasing.

Such an amazing discussion. No harsh words, no aspiration of "winning". Just great minds talking, exchanging ideas and knowledge. ♥️

Both Fry and Peterson, different as they may be, have had a significant impact on me and my thinking. And I just love how they can talk, unpack each other’s ideas, challenge each other and enjoy it whilst doing so. I reckon it’s time for part 2 😋

The Peterson / Fry discussions should be a monthly series for at least twelve sessions.

Two men came to talk to each other. Both poor souls because of facing depression, but also both rich souls for their contributions to the world. A wonderful talk

JP is a rock. And Stephen Fry is the weather, the right kind. I saw JP being shaped up in this discourse. JP was so close to tears, and he has shown his vulnerabilities several times but this it the only time when he did that when the other person agrees with him. Hats of to JP and Stephen Fry. Everyone is a little wiser after watching this, JP, Fry, me, and you.

Never really been a fan of Peterson, I think this turned up in my feed because of JRE and my lifelong fanship of Steven Fry. I have to say this conversation is a perfect example of how a basic level of respect for other people can lead to something great and illuminating. The fact these two did this is fantastic and it's an example to be followed.

A bit of Fry and Peterson is the new buddy bromance show that we need

Isn't it nice to listen to two people who have different perspectives on the world have a sensible conversation without it dissolving into mud slinging gibberish.

I just bought his Greek myth book the other day it’s a fantastic read. Stephen is one heck of a talented man,and yes he is a national treasure who deserves to be knighted.

To be able to live in an age where you can watch two men with such talents converse on a screen almost freely! What an inspirational conversation! Thank you Jordan Peterson and Stephen Fry

This isn't so much a debate as a respectful conversation -- and it's one of the best things I've ever seen on the Internet. Many thanks to Jordan Peterson and Stephen Fry for making it available to us.

“It makes me resentful and angry and wanting to shake my fist, but I found upon intense consideration that there was nothing in that, that didn’t make it worse and that therefore it must be wrong even though it’s justifiable”. I hope I can remember and share this often.

I think what I enjoyed the most about this episode was witnessing how undoubtedly knowledgable Stephen is on the subject of faith, religion and it's deeply embedded roots within human history allowing him to deliver facts and researched backed counter points instead of two toddlers not getting along. Stephen at a glance seems to have made an incredibly informed decision on his beliefs based on his own knowledge rather than what "others have told him" to believe. I guess I'm writing this right now because it was refreshing to see an athiest point of view with substance where both sides were respectful, intelligent and no one was screaming over one another to be "right" or "louder" for once!

Two intellectual Behemoths...MUST see more of these two together ..Can listen to them for hours.

I can’t believe how great Jordan is looking now. So good to have him back

When "long-form" discussion feels painfully short

I marvelled at how they never became angry or annoyed by each other views. Indeed, they seemed to revel in the prospect of the meeting of minds. Respect to both who I admire greatly.

Randomly watched this out of curiosity and couldn't switch it off, completely gripped. It left my brain hurting just a little but certainly worth it

“Awe is an invitation to imitate!” What a powerful observation. I really like this.

I wish this a 15 hour episode, I can listen to these two talking forever.

Wow, the last thing Stephen Fry said really struck me. There is no level of articulation that is more convincing to a human being than a good story.

When a conversation can hold my attention for an hour and thirty eight minutes it has to be special indeed. Thank you to both these gentlemen for allowing us the pleasure of intelligent conversation with little argument. A breath of fresh air in a stagnant world.

This needs to be a full series. This is pure gold. Thank you, Jordan and Stephen.

Please, please have a follow-up discussion. This was everything I had hoped it would be, and more.

I'm thankful to be able to enjoy this conversation

I could listen to Stephen Fry forever. One of the most interesting people of all time. 🦋

The ability to entertain a thought without accepting it, is education.

Stephen Fry remembers so many facts and quotes then explains them so eloquently… His mind is simply amazing.

Listening to Stephen Fry is comparable to when I was at school and I always willed for my teachers to go off on a tangent and share some of the most interesting things.

Stephen Fry is that kind of guy who, while he doesn't know everything about anything, knows something about everything. You could talk to him about any topic and he would at least have a minimum knowledge about it enough to make the conversation last for a few minutes.

Man. This conversation makes me feel like I am witnessing human mental evolution in real-time. Two conflicting perspectives from mutually great intellects, discussing their opposing ideas in a healthy, respectful & civil manner, is the recipe for progress in exploring the unknown of what’s next to come in human civilization. Very exciting to listen to these.

The best thing about this was the places you disagreed but were willing to explore in civilized manner. It felt at the end that both of you got someting out of it and so did we all who listened.

I would love a Fry and Jordan discussion on a regular basis, two great humans whom I have a lot of love and respect for.

I'm trying to write a sentence explaining how much I enjoyed this conversation, but nothing sounds eloquent enough having just heard these two speak so so brilliantly 😅 I'm excited though about the fact that I'm considering my words more carefully and wanting to communicate better after hearing these two 👍

I absolutely love how excited and giddy they are when hearing the other's reasonings. It's the beauty of conversation.

I love being the third wheel in these conversations. It's like watching your dad and uncle having a friendly discussion at a birthday party and you're trying to follow it, but half the time you don't have any idea what they're saying. And at the end without knowing it you learned somethings from both parties that you love. Jordan and Stephen I respect you both and wish you well with the blessing of the God that may or may not exist

This is an incredibly rewarding conversation. We need much more of this.

When you get two actual intellectuals come together, They can actually postulate freely, its very refreshing

two of the most eloquent public intellectuals of our times having a conversation. Today is a good day.

Holy crap if this isn't one of the greatest crossovers of all time

This was a heady pleasure. I find you both very lovely as you grapple with these questions. I wish there were more such discussions in the public sphere. We need them badly. Thank you!

Hopefully a second episode. This conversation could definitely continue. Thanks for the episode!

Fry's knowledge of etymology and ability to quote both prose and poetry at length is astounding.

Stephen Fry is quite simply astonishing to me. He brings so much warmth and humanity to subjects that are very complicated to me.

Amazing conversation, thank you both!

This is so intellectual stimulating so much knowledge shared between Jordan and Stephen so so inspiring and I found it really quite beautiful too - i was in awe at the awakenings and realisations I was having while listening to such depth of knowledge and understanding!

Jordan is looking so healthy, thank God for that. Bless him.

A nice idea would be for Stephen to be the “interviewer” in the next discussion or the one directing the discussion, as the role Jordan played in this one

The world should value both of these wonderful people. It is so enjoyable to listen to this back and forth. Both showing high respect for each other and sharing ideas that seem to conflict.

I could listen to these two great men forever.... So humbling to know there are people in the world who can enunciate the experience and questions life presents in such beautiful language, with depth of feeling, precision of concepts and application of classic and religious teachings and philosophy. I am moved to tears.... Dr JP, if you ever read this, firstly thank you, and secondly if you have the opportunity and the energy please please please please bring us more of yourself and Stephen Fry, perhaps discussing other topics beyond just this the obvious one... so interesting and inspiring ❤

Two thoroughly decent and intelligent men. What an utter pleasure.

Great discussion. My takeaway is I need to read a LOT more.

Adore this conversation, so much respect and chemistry between these two ❤ this is how different views are meant to be discussed.

I have a great deal of admiration for both of these men. They are some of the few truly civilized human beings that open up the conversation to both aisles of the issues and give me hope we can fix this mess. Thanks to both of you for having the courage and for caring enough to speak.

When Jordan is moved to tears by a thought or a revelation, I feel less alone in the world. I've always been made to feel like this aspect of my personality is a flaw to be overcome, but Dr. Peterson embraces it as not only intrinsic to his identity, but seems imbued with a gratitude for this characteristic. One more reason to appreciate the man. This is a brilliant conversation, by the way.

I'm so excited about this discussion!!! I have wanted you to interact with Stephen since the whole fiasco debate with Dyson.

This is what we need. People engaging in open, honest discussions and being willing to listen to each other to understand what is being said. Too often, people are unable to either listen, consider or disagree graciously - instead resortIng to ridicule or insult. Conversations such as these promote growth. Only talking within your comfort zones causes stagnation and polarisation.

A perfect example of 2 true genius gentlemen having a decent conversation. Thank you considering this is 100% completely free.

If only everyone could have productive, honest conversations like this, instead of arguing and trying to appear right for the sake of their egos. Thanks boys, I really enjoyed that one!

Having access to the highest quality conversations like this is the real blessing of technological progress of the 21st century. We are truly live in the best possible times. Thank you for keeping this knowledge publicly available. And thank you for the strong and straightforward message in the world of bias and confusion. You realy changed my life and my perception of it!

The world needs people like these 2 legends.

I love that these two are talking to each other!

There are podcasts you can listen to as 'background noise', then there's THIS podcast, where you have to PAY ATTENTION.

I am a 51-year-old man.. Stephen Fry was and is an utter hero of mine. When I was studying for A- levels he was an utter idol. When I was 8 years old I became obsessed with Greek mythology .. I went to my local library and drenched myself in it. And just LOVED it to a real point of utter distraction. I know ALL about it .. but when this great man wrote Mythos .. well .. amazing! Better than any film & Stephen.. you are both Homeric & Hesodic! Best wishes from a a scientifically minded person who’s real love is Greek mythology!

Oh my, so much to unpack, looped twice and will watch again on loop. (Well, maybe 4, 5 or 6 times) Thankyou, you reasoned speakers.

This is the first time I have seen someone disagree with Peterson and, to some extent, take his arguments apart, successfully. Almost every other person who disagrees with Peterson wants to demolish and 'gotcha' him in a virtue-signalling way, in order to make themselves a youtube hero to their left wing peer group. Stephen Fry really does come across as intelligent and well read in this discussion--and also, crucially, reasonable.

It is so much fun being able to watch Peterson have discussions with people he wants to talk with as opposed to him being interviewed. The energy is so different, you can tell he is having a blast in this one.

Oh my goodness! How many books could come from this? So many times the subject matter changed before I was ready! I would love hearing more from these two if they are so inclined. I have learned and enjoyed much from both of these men over many years. Especially Stephen Fry. You both are wonderful drinks of cool water in the wasteland. Thanks

Watching for the second time, after a year. Great conversation. I have learned a lot.

I was just thinking the other day "man it'd be cool if Stephen Fry got on here" 👍

Mad respect to ANY consumate individualist such as Stephen Fry who is willing to listen to anyone regardless of view point because we can be friends, break bread, share mead and have a laugh at ourselves despite our differences. THAT is the REAL meat of existence and those that have forsaken that(namely the Identitarians) are truly lost.

A virtual Agora at its finest. The most educational and intellectually dense conversation I’ve seen and heard on RU-vid.

Such a pleasure listening too these chaps converse,thank you.Go well the pair of you.

It's an interesting detail that our comic legends of yesterday, the likes of Fry, Rowan Atkinson and John Cleese are becoming rather rare voices of reason and sanity in a world becoming farce.

I must say, he's getting so much better at not interrupting. What an amazing interview!

One of the most interesting and enthralling conversations I have ever witnessed. Could have watched for 15 hours!

What a lovely and meaningful conversation between two people with rich knowledge of history and literature. Both of them have the wonderful quality of simplify complex thinking into a conversation most people can grasp. This is art.

These two men showcase this one idea that evades society today: Finding common ground should be the common goal.

I am a Catholic Christian and have been finding this conversation wonderful. Stephan is a generous soul. I appreciate his willingness, his gentleness in his discussion with JP. There is something poetic about Stephan's speech. It's just so nice to hear people be respectful and really listening to each other.

Wow...I've watched many interviews with Jordan Peterson & this was the first time I caught a brief glimpse of his being delighted during a discussion. I could feel the delightment for a moment and found myself smiling for him. It was so nice to see Dr. Peterson enjoying sharing his insight & opionions rather than being on the defense or offense during interviews. I truly appreciate Dr. PETERSON & his sincerity to find truth. N'yawęh to his Mr. FRYE for being a polite guest and for bringing his host a small but wonderful gift...a moment of pure delight. What a treat. N'yawęh, JoJo

It's very impressive just how well read Stephen is and it's not just his "smart sounding britspeak", the guy has an incredibly sharp memory. Great seeing him on here talking with Peterson

I like how Jordan Peterson interviews people who have conflicting viewpoints to him, really makes the conversation more interesting

Everyone here: wow that's amazing conversation between 2 great minds. Me: giggles when Jordan says "buts are important"

Brilliant conversation. Always been a great admirer of Stephen Fry and his wit and intellect. I found the exchange of both your insights and profound knowledge incredibly stimulating and thought provoking.

Absolutely loved this! Thank you both!

Watching these two men having such an impressive conversation and being able to call to hand such a broad array of ideas and stories really makes me appreciate just how much more there is to learn!

I like how Peterson recapitulates his guests’ arguments. Podcasts can often get carried away without ever tying together or taking stock of what’s been said. Stopping to sum up helps prevent that.

You know, I used to be a big JP fan but have not been stoked on him for the last few years. But I must say, he’s really in his wheelhouse in this convo. Not a wasted word, perfectly timed tangents.

Two of my favourite people, even given their different opinions and beliefs. This was a joy to watch, thank you.