Two friends discuss grace, God, and their faith. christcommunity.faith Unveiling Grace by Lynn Wilder www.amazon.com... Is Mormonism Now Christian? by Steven Crane www.amazon.com...
He really is. I've met him on a couple of occasions over the past few years, at various events, and he is just like this in person. A heart of pure gold.
His talks are better than this in a lot of respects. I wish that there was a video like this one but with some apostles talking to some other Christians.
Thank you for your kind words. I'm a Latter-day Saint, I was grateful for how civil and kind Steven Crane was. There are so many debates and videos online where someone just tears down another church. I'm so glad there is a discussion online that's helping to build bridges.
I have such great respect for these two gentlemen to sit together and discuss such a deep and personal message with each other. No matter what religion we are we ALL need to lock arms and stand together to fight the evils of the world. Just as they said the world see evil as good, and good as evil. We need to stand together, love God and Jesus together, and love one another, and we will triumph over the adversary. Amen, in the name of Jesus Christ amen, and all the inbetween hallelujahs!!
@@1exlds90 Which gospel are you refering is false? And how is leading a person to worship God and Jesus sad? Do you think God will punish you if you didn't know or believe the exact true gospel here on Earth? The God I worship doesn't punish for loving him and trying to follow Jesus - no matter what religion you belong too.
yes, and we should call "Christians" all who claim to worship Christ AND try to obey his commandments. why? Matthew 18: 23-35 I am very sorrowful when a fellow Christian calls us Latter-day Saints "anti-christ".
We need about a million more conversations like this! All believers should be allies in the war against evil. The Lord is coming. Let us all prepare the way for him together in peace and love and unity.
Love your comment. We are believers and I love my brothers and sisters regardless of their religion. I’m lds and that doesn’t mean I am better than anyone else, actually it gives me motivation to help and love humanity.
@Maxwell this is good stuff. I'd say keep at it, might be a best seller someday or even a pretty good sci-fi movie. Anyways, I like it so far, would love to hear more.
Pretty sure we're on board with the whole saved by grace thing. And we definitely do accept the blood of Christ. It's kinda the whole focus and purpose of our Sunday sacrament meetings. We have this whole thing where we drink water that represents the atoning blood of Christ. Like catholic communion, but every week.
This was such a great conversation. It reminded me of what President Hinckley said once, "To people everywhere, we simply say, "You bring with you all the good that you have and let us add to it. That is the principle on which we work."
Such a wrong statement, the Mormons are making the same mistakes the Catholics did There traditions and opinions now cloud the truth The arrogance in the statement too, you bring what you have and we will add Such pride
As a member of the LDS faith, I respect Steve for his ability to show respect and willingness to hear out Brad's representation of our faith. All too often, other faiths spit and hiss at us because our faith see's thing broadly than most if not all other Christian faiths. I did feel at times, this was more an interview and wanting to understand then a conversation, between two friends. Both men are great in their engagement with eachother but their humbleness and expression of love for God and Jesus Christ, makes them one!
When you listen to Brad Wilcox talk to LDS youth, you know that this spirit of tolerance is not reciprocal. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-zqB8UmnNcqk.html
While I do feel like you have been deceived by this churches doctrines, your statement about having a broader view stumps me. I do understand what the LDS faith believes very well, I don't understand how a 'one of many' god can be seen as a broad view in comparison to the Eternal all powerful God who created everything from nothing. Setting that point aside I have yet to get a question answered from anyone in the Mormon church. If you are exalted to be a god, do you still worship God? If so who would God worship and why wouldn't we worship the god that God Himself would bow down to worship? Or his God? Why would the scripture, and the words of Jesus Himself, contradict what Joseph Smith said? Paul does tell us that if even an angel from heaven contradicts the gospel message the apostles taught, with Holy Spirit influence, then he will be cursed. With this in mind, why would I now choose to go against the revelation God gave us through His Word, and believe something that, not only changes the Gospel message but also changes the very nature of who God is?
@@ChristisLord2023 The wisdom of Jesus' teaching in parable is becoming more and more clear to me. People may have been frustrated with Jesus for not being more explicit in his teachings, but he knew what was best for the people and he knew that milk should come before meat for those who were not mature enough in their understanding of spiritual things. If we are spiritually and intellectually honest with ourselves and with God, we should approach His mysteries in humility, realizing that we do not know the smallest part of them. We would also be wise to humbly seek whatever further light and truth is expedient for us to receive. We need to seek grace and an understanding heart so that when we receive a truth from God, we don't reject it (seed sown on stony ground). What is helpful to keep in mind is that we are all still learning, and not only do we have an incomplete understanding of God's mysteries, but many of us don't have a complete knowledge of the scriptures or the doctrines of our church. The problem with these discussions is that they always get pushed to the fringes and we end up saying things that may not be accurate or even what we believe, but just a response that we've arrived at logically based on what we do believe.
@@adh02us that is an awful lot of word salad to say that you don't believe God has successfully transmitted His message clearly. This is one area where we disagree. God said, in His written revelation, through divine inspiration, who He is and that we can have personal relationship with Him. I am not sure from what you wrote which side of this debate you are on, but I do know what is "theopnuestos" (God Breathed). 2 Timothy 3:14But as for you, continue in the things you have learned and firmly believed, since you know from whom you have learned them. 15From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work. This tells me that God's Word is enough for salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. Jeremiah 17 :9“The heart is deceitful above all things, And [d]desperately wicked; Who can know it? This tells me that a strong feeling about the book of Mormon may not be the Holy Spirit speaking to me. I choose to trust God and His inspired Word over the "revelation of Joseph Smith which came almost 2000 years later and contradicts it.
@@ChristisLord2023 I'm sorry that it sounded like I was suggesting that God did not clearly transmit His message. That's not at all what I meant. I was more meaning that we tend to have blind eyes and hardened hearts so that we don't clearly receive His message, even though it is clearly given to us (the seed is a good seed, but our ground is barren and does not allow for the good seed to grow). There are a lot of snares that would keep us from perceiving truth. For an example, look at the Pharisees. These were people who faithfully kept the law of Moses. The words of the prophets that they claimed to follow clearly prophesied concerning a Messiah. Jesus Christ is this Messiah. He is the great Jehovah, the Creator of the world, Alpha and Omega, the great I Am. Yet they were offended by him and rejected him and said that he had a devil. How did this happen? We are blessed to see more clearly than the Jews whose blindness caused them to reject their own God. However, have we slipped into similar blindness? We may just have our own Tanakh we cling to, gripped with fear of being deceived or guilty of blasphemy. This tendency may stem from a righteous desire to follow the true and living God, but how do we ensure that we not reject that very God through hardness of heart, blindness of mind, and being gripped with fear? 1 Thessalonians 5: 19 Quench not the Spirit. 20 Despise not prophesyings. 21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. God hasn't given us the spirit of fear. We put our trust in the true and living God, and trust his Holy Spirit to guide us to discern truth from error. It sounds like you are interpreting the verse from Jeremiah to mean that you should block out any potential light or truth for fear that it "may not be the Holy Spirit". James 1: 5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
This is the most forthright and respectful and loving conversation between a member of the LDS faith and a Christian that I have ever seen. Neither side tried to avoid questions or mince words but they were so kind and earnestly seeking to better understand one another. I pray more people take notes on this event and how they did it.
1:13:45 "In the Bible, I don't read about second chances." The entire Old Testament is practically God giving his people chance after chance after chance.
@@byard55 there is second chances in the world to come Jesus Christ had preached fhe Gospel to the Spirits in Prison 1Peter 3:18-20 though they try hard to explain this words of Peter differently, still there is 1Peter 4:6 that needs to be addressed as well plus the words of Jesus Christ regarding this matter JOHN 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. And another is what Jesus Christ hath said regarding forgiveness in this world and in the world to come MATTHEW 12:31 ¶ Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Yes we do believe that Jesus Christ's Grace is so encompassing and this is true in our daily lives towards happines and progression in this life and in the world to come not for us But also for those who were born since the time of Adam and upto the last person that will still be born on this earth We also know that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is so real and powerful and hath a universal application Amen
These verses of Scripture might help; Those who die without accepting Christ via baptism on Earth (by circumstance) are given 2nd chance... Peter explains why the gospel is preached to the dead 👇 Dead given chance to accept Christ's atonement for sin in spirit world after death but before judgment - 1 Peter 4:6 Christ speaks of how the hour for the dead to hear the gospel has come - John 5:25 All that are in their graves are about to hear the gospel of Christ - John 5:28 Christ preaches to the dead in spirit prison so they can accept the Gospel before final judgment, with mention of baptism as being essential - 1 Pet. 3:18-21 If the dead who have not had the chance to hear the Gospel are given the chance to accept Christ and his atonement after death as per 1 Peter 4:6 and Matthew 27:52-53, then a baptism for the dead on earth must be conducted so that person can accept Christ's atonement and salvation and resurrection as per 1 Corinthians 15:29. According to John 3:2-7, salvation requires baptism. Therefore, those who have died without baptism require something special: a baptism by proxy performed by the living on their behalf so they can accept Christ's atonement. ...Thus, the ordinance of Baptisms for the Dead was and is necessary Baptisms for the Dead - 1 Corinthians 15:29 Dead given chance to accept Christ's atonement for sin in spirit world before judgment - 1 Peter 4:6 Christ preached to dead in spirit world during 3 days of death following crucifixion -Matthew 27:52-53 Baptisms and resurrection of the dead official doctrine - Hebrews 6:2 The dead shall receive the gospel in their graves - John 5:25-29 The living must perform certain ordinances for the dead so they may progress and be made perfect also - Hebrews 11:35-40 In the latter days, a critical, mandatory event: the living will take great interest in the welfare of dead ancestors - Malachi 4:5-6 Baptisms for the dead are necessary for salvation and resurrection of those who have already died - 1 Corinthians 15:29 Sacred places for Baptisms for the dead are necessary, and are conducted in temples - 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Cor. 15:29 The 12-oxen baptismal fonts (used for baptisms for the dead) inside temples described - 2 Chronicles 4:2-5, 10 & 15 He rejoices that his soul will have a chance at being saved from hell after he has died (baptism being required) - Psalms 16:9-10 Ordinances are to be observed exactly as they were delivered - 1 Cor. 11:2
I appreciate the calm and collected conversation. I grew up in Utah and never have the faith explain like this. I'm still not LDS but I have understanding of those around me
You can get 2 young men or women to lay out more of the pieces of the picture. It will make much more sense when you get a fuller, complete picture. Don’t be afraid. They’re well behaved kids.
His Grace Is Sufficient by Brad Wilcox, is one of the BEST talks, I've ever heard. It has been a consistent source of comfort, encouragement, and peace, when my I feel like my life is going to crap. Respect to both men!
From that talk: We not only know what Jesus saved as from. We also know what Jesus saved us for... Besides asking "Have you been saved by grace?", we should also ask "Have you been changed by grace?", "We will all be saved. The only thing left to be determined is what kind of bodies we will be resurrected with. How comfortable we will be in the presence of God".
It makes me so mad the way this guy handles the bible, you guys have no idea how much has been sacrificed and the gospel preserved to trust men like this that obviously don't know his scriptures, it really is a perversion to gods word,
"If you sincerely drink poison, it will kill you: if you sincerely cut your throat, you will die. If you sincerely believe a lie, you will suffer the consequences. You must not only be sincere, but you must be right."
@@triciamorrison4450 insecurity is when a religion persecutes anyone who leaves or questions thier organization in anyway or shows no compassion to them.
@@1exlds90 I don’t know where you get your information from but I haven’t found that in the LDS church at all and I’ve been going off and on for the past 25 years. They’ve always shown compassion toward me. And isn’t that exactly what you’re doing to them. Persecuting them. I clicked on your channel and found several videos that bash on the church, so that’s quite hypocritical of you to say.
Brother Wilcox. I have learned so much from listening to you and I’ve been a member all my 52 years. Thank you for speaking so plainly and also working so hard to highlight how we are the same. Outstanding missionary experience.
If you caught it, we are not the same. Mr. Wilcox would love to defend that position that we are not. God, Jesus, sin, resurrection, Holy Spirit, and many other points they disagreed on.
Amazing explanation about the LDS doctrine, in a sincere way. We do not understand all God's relationship with man but we know that we will have all eternity to learn more. Being respectful and having a sincere approach is elemental to cherish ideas that we might not share is the first step to love one another.
@@sothpaw13 We will all come to the unity of faith. ALL Christians (and good people who never knew Christ) who have strived to be obedient will have their chance to accept or reject the Saviour.
@@Sk8StGeorge that chance only happens during this life. In “Hebrews 9:27 (NKJV) it states: “And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment.” Being a good person won’t get you to heaven as there are no “good people”. The Bible says, Luke 18:19 (NKJV): 19 So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.” We don’t have all of eternity to figure this out. That is a lie from the devil himself.
@@Sk8StGeorge Jesus is merciful, incredibly merciful. But He is also just. His mercy can’t conflict with it. He created the plan of salvation and He has laid it all out in His Word. Anyone who ends up in Hell is there by their own hand, not our Savior’s.
I was also impressed that brother Wilcox did not bible bash, I guess he knew that using scripture would have led to an argument. I’ll try to follow his example if I’m in that situation to not hurl scripture.
What a tough, but mostly respectful dialogue between two believers. It is easy to "arm chair quarterback" this event and so I will refrain from doing so. Biggest take-away... 1. In essentials, unity; 2. In non-essentials, liberty; 3. in all things, love. #PraiseJesus :-)
I appreciate and love a honest Mormon so I can understand them better this was a lovely debate that’s what I like seeing may not agree but can be in the same room.
That's true about them being in the same room without argueing. Outside of a debate I wouldn't argue. In a debate I would just say, "look my dinner is getting cold so I'll make it quick." "Joe Smith is a charlatan. He's not a prophet. The Book of Mormon has no backing archeology anywhere. Kolob? The Book is blasphemous for even existing any using Jesus name. No financial transparency The Mormon temple ceremony is a rip-off from Masonry The Mormon church worships Joseph Smith more than Jesus he Book of Mormon is not a record of ancient Americans as Joseph Smith claimed, but instead is a 19th century work of fiction/plagiarism"
@@joeb2588 First of all I would like to correct you on several points you got wrong. 1. The Book of Mormon has no backing archeology anywhere. Not true. There are many examples of claims being made in the BoM that contradicted the science of it's time but than later the old science was proved wrong and the BoM proven right. 2. No financial transparency Yeah so what! No matter what they choose to do with the money people will complain either way. But, I respect this position far better than what evangelical churches do where they pretend to be transparent but are consistently get caught in financial scandals. Much more so than ours have. 3. The Mormon temple ceremony is a rip-off from Masonry Except that there is that possibility that free Masonry was just a break away from old rituals that took place in the temple of Solomon. If it is the case than it really isn't a problem. 4. The Mormon church worships Joseph Smith more than Jesus. That one is just flat out untrue. 5. Book of Mormon is not a record of ancient Americans as Joseph Smith claimed, but instead is a 19th century work of fiction/plagiarism I suppose everyone is entitled to their opinion but with their being multiple witnesses present during the translation process I find it hard to believe Joseph could have dictated what needed to be written without having any notes or scripts which the witnesses have testified that he had none.
@@joeb2588 a present exhibit A: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-aTk-LebVUO8.html but in case you don't want to listen to a remarkable story. Here is the list found there-in (please ignore the accidental timestamps "blue text"): the 17 points of the true church: 1. Christ organized the Church - Ephesians 4:11-14 2. The true church must bear the name of Jesus Christ - Ephesians 5:23, Colossians 1:18 3. The true church must have a foundation of apostles and prophets - Ephesians 2:19-20, 1 Cor. 12:28 4. The true church must have the same organization as Christ's Church - Ephesians 4:11-14 5. The true church must claim divine authority - Hebrews 5:4-10 6. The true church must have no paid ministry - Isaiah 45:13, 1 Peter 5:2 7. The true church must baptize by full immersion - Matthew 3:13-16 8. The true church must bestow the gift of the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands -Acts 8:14-17 9. The true church must practice genuine divine healing - Mark 3:14-15 10. The true church must teach that God and Jesus are separate individuals - Heb. 1:3, Acts 7:55-56, John 17:11 & 20:17 11. The true church must teach that God and Jesus have bodies of flesh and bone - Luke 24:36-51, Acts 1:9-11 12. The officers of the true church must be called by God, not taken upon by themselves - Hebrews 5:4, Exodus 40:13-16 13. The true church must claim revelation from God - Amos 3:7 14. The true church must be a missionary church - Matthew 28:19-20 15. The true church must be a restored church (previously removed, then re-instated) - Acts 3:19-20 16. The true church must practice baptism for the dead - 1 Corinthians 15:16 -29 17. By their fruits ye shall know them -Matthew 7:20 ** Why are these things important? -Hebrews 13:8
Brad, thank you so much for your testimony and willingness to share what we believe as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You have a beautiful gift to teach. It’s conversations and events like this that, in God’s time, will help others to understand our doctrine and be willing to listen to who we are and what we have to offer. ❤️
I just like to say that I'm very appreciative at the gentlemanly manner the these two gentlemen have with each other instead of anybody being cynical are sarcastic about the doctrine of the LDS because that's usually the thing that takes over and other people questioning the LDS person is that there is an assault weapon trying to come out during conversations that turn into ugly arguments and then nobody should even be talkin about having because the minute that happens the ego is taking over an ego. Is serious downfall when it comes to talking about God in general ego kills...truth.
I m a LDS from Costa Rica and independently of religious belief ,I m LDS because the statements from Mr Wilcox makes sense to me more than the reachs of other religions based on Roman catholic Church boundaries
@@Killthesefears But if something was needed in addition to God's creation, then creation was not good and lacking completeness, aka the 7th day rest. Which is the whole point of Genesis chapter 1 of a perfect world.
@@scotthix2926 let me ask you this, then: if that was the whole thing and there was to be no more, how would God who is all powerful, all knowing make that world without the rest of the picture in mind? He didn’t. He gave us the choice to sin, yet made a plan for when we did, knowing the outcome. It is all a part of His plan. Don’t get this confused with the idea that God wants us to sin, He doesn’t want us to but He knew that we would. It’s not about the sin, it’s about what we learn because of it, hence progression. If we didn’t sin, then we wouldn’t have known but if we didn’t know, we wouldn’t know how to learn. Get it?
@@Killthesefears many points will have to break it up. 1 - "there was to be no more" - assuming creation - everything was created and we (humans) ordered to be fruitful and multiply. A little nuance - in hebrew only God creates, man makes. So we would make more humans through procreation which Adam and Eve were free to do, before the fall. 2. yes He knew we would sin, yes he gave us the choice. 3. Plan - what was his plan? Are you LDS thus you believe we grow or become greater than man. I do not believe this. Adam and Eve were fully human and in perfect communal relationship with God in Gen CH 2. The story of the Bible (from orthodox point of view) is us returning to that Genesis CH 2 communal level. So we believe sin has not benefitted us at all. We already were with God. 4. Learning/Progression - The tree was good for learning, Ch3:6. However, the better way of learning would be from the creator of the tree of good and evil, not from the tree. However, Eve (i would have also) choose her own path to knowledge instead of God's path to knowledge. Her way brought about shame, God's way does not.
You do realize the reason for old testament prophets of God. No offense but prophets of old are not the same as having the spirit of prophecy. God has revealed the mystery and that is Jesus Christ Who has saved mankind from eternal death. Christ is our only mediator to God the Father We are very fortunate, we have one Canon with complete instructions What God wants and what he wants from us his earthly imagers. Peace
I believe God speaks to prophets. But the LDS ‘prophets’ are Not God appointed but self appointed. Jesus said My sheep hear My voice (John 10:27). We hear His voice and don’t need to go through a man because Jesus is the only way (John 14:6).
@@prayerwarrior7778 if this were true, Christianity would be united, and it's not. The Evangelical minister really downplays the differences between the denominations, but these are major differences. For example, Jesus teaches Nichodemus that "unless a man be born of both water and the spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God." This practice is baptism. Without baptism we cannot enter into heaven, and yet many Churches do not teach this. I would consider that a major difference, and is the reason a Prophet is needed... to bring the Church together.
@@kassidyj97 I’m extremely thorough so allow me to try to be as brief as I can. I’ll try not to write a book. if we cannot test things then everything God says is relative. That argument is bs. Many people have spiritual encounters that they THINK are from God but are really from Satan (that is how Islam was started). And the Bible confirms this (2 Cor 11:14, Gal 1:6-9, 1 John 4:1, 2 Peter 2:1, Matthew 24:24 ect). I did not make this up. Also He says in John tell that His sheep will not follow the voice of another. A voice of another means a voice not from God. Hello, false religions. Biblical Christianity is not as divided as the Mormons say. I’ve been to all denominations. We disagree on issues such as woman pastors, baptism by immersion or sprinkling, should the book of Enoch be added to the canon, post or pre trib rapture. We disagree on secondary issues, it’s not that they are not important but that they are not related to the gospel or salvation. We all agree (Methodist, Baptist, Lutherans, Angleicans, Prest, Assembly of God ect) that there has only ever been ONE God (Isaiah 43:10, Psalm 90:2,). The triune nature of the Godhead (John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:3, Col 2:9, Col 1:15-18, John 4:24, John 8:58 ect ect). The virgin birth, the physical resurrection. Sin. The need for a savior. God is Holy. Salvation by grace through faith (Eph 2:8-10). The Holy Spirit lives in those that believe in the Son (John 3:18, John 1:12, Eph 1:13, Romans 8:14-15, 1 Cor 3:16). Mormonism violates multiple essential Christian doctrine such as the trinity, salvation by grace through faith, and there only ever been One God. It is therefore not Christian, not any more do than Islam is. Muslims believe in a version of Jesus, but it’s not the biblical Jesus. Mormons believe in a different Jesus than the biblical one. No, you don’t not need to be baptized to be saved. You must be born of water (the physical birth) and spirit (the spiritual birth) as John 3:5 says. Read John 3:1-8 for context. Also look at the thief on the cross in Luke 22:38-43. And then check John 3:18, Mark 16:16. Romans 10:9. I’m sure I am forgetting some verses but that should prove my point. I am not saying that we should not be baptized. But that we do not need to be baptized to get to the Father, because THAT IS ONLY THROUGH JESUS (John 14:6). Look at Eph 1:13. We are sealed to God because of our belief. Amen thank you Jesus for the CROSS!!! What can wash away my sin? Nothing but the blood of Jesus? What can make me whole again? Nothing but the blood of Jesus. Oh, precious is the flow that makes me white as snow. I’m curious though. Because I am confused. I know in the LDS faith that Heavenly Father and Jesus are ‘separate in being but United in purpose’ (D and C 130:22). Do you worship Heavenly Father only then? If so, did you know Jesus recieved worship. Matt 28:9, Matthew 28:17. Or if you worship both, and they are separate beings, is that not like worshipping two gods? I’m curious because every time I ask someone I get a different answer. I even had one missionary say ‘yes we worship only Heavenly Father,’ then I showed her where Jesus is worshipped and she changed her mind to both, then I asked her the above question and she said just Heavenly Father again. It’s very confusing to me. You say that a prophet is needed to bring the church together, but that is the Holy Spirits job. How come many Mormon prophets contradict each other? Brigham Young taught in blood atonement and Adam was our God and denied the virgin birth? Yet modern Mormonism does not hold to these teachings. What about the facts that African Americans did not get the priesthood until 1978? What about the fact that one prophet said “Mormon means more good” but the current one says “Mormon is a win for Satan”? What about the wired doctrine that children of gay parents could not be baptized and then three years later that doctrine was changed, yet when it first came out it was regarded as revelation from God? Does God change His mind?
@@prayerwarrior7778 Sorry, I too will probably write too long a response. 😄 I'm not sure but I think Oliver Parker meant to direct his reply about "If that were true then Christianity would be united" towards the first comment made by Bin Ren about how we don't need a prophet because we have the holy spirit. At least, that was my first thought when I read Bin Ren's assertion. After all, if the Holy Spirit was being followed perfectly, why are their 90K denominations of christian? I'm also not LDS (I'm protestant) but in answer to a few other of your questions I think they would say that God does not change but that prophets are mortal men just as the prophets in the Bible and are not infallible perfect beings. They can make mistakes. They DO sin. As for African Americans not getting the priesthood, I would say the LDS church has been more liberal at accepting other races into their fold than Christian churches. If we are holding them to account for racist views held in the past by members, we would not like to be held to the same standard. Even all the way up to Jim Crow, MANY protestant Christian churches actively preached against integration and remained silent or worse in regards to their civil rights supposedly in the name of Jesus Christ.
As it should be. We all have a role to play and in this time of division we have to come together as we get through the tribulations. We all love the teachings of Christ and we can always find common ground and love in our heavenly fathers children. He wants all of us back home not just different religions
@@AString95 no its not. Notice the words in our hymn. Offering divine or To be like man , almost. Iow like man but without sin... but even more clear, we absolutely believe that only the sacrifice of the first born without spot or blemish was God's son. He who was without sin took the sin of the world upon himself. We emphatically believe and teach this. 1. O God, th’Eternal Father, Who dwells amid the sky, In Jesus’ name we ask thee To bless and sanctify, If we are pure before thee, This bread and cup of wine, That we may all remember That offering divine- 2. That sacred, holy off’ring, By man least understood, To have our sins remitted And take his flesh and blood, That we may ever witness The suff’ring of thy Son, And always have his Spirit To make our hearts as one. 3. When Jesus, the Anointed, Descended from above And gave himself a ransom To win our souls with love- With no apparent beauty, That man should him desire- He was the promised Savior, To purify with fire. 4. How infinite that wisdom, The plan of holiness, That made salvation perfect And veiled the Lord in flesh, To walk upon his footstool And be like man, almost, In his exalted station, And die, or all was lost.
@@45s262 Joseph Smith and Snow both said God was like us, a man. I do not know such a god. My God has been God from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 90:2). Jesus is not my brother. He is my Lord and my God (John 20:28). Certainly the Mormon church teaches God was like a man, and that we may become a god ourselves. This is a false gospel.
I definitely do agree that our Earthly pilgrimage is exactly like a school... And we learn through our mistakes.... Try over and over again and finally get it right and realize that we will know we were not created to fail...
I'm so grateful, as a Latter-day Saint, for people like Steven Crane, David Barton, and Richard Mouw for not being overly critical about the Latter-day Saints. We need to have more dialogue like this.
@@patrioticwoodyDon't need to watch it again. If you add up the minutes Wilcox hogged the floor and add up the minutes Crane used for his sorry rebuttals what you get is a Mormon monologue. Crane was pathetic.
@@recalltolife3478 Maybe, maybe you just find Steven Crane as that weak and unwilling to stand for what you believe to be the true faith, or it could be that this was not a debate but rather an interfaith discussion with two people trying to understand each other's perspectives.
A bridge builder on the Protestant side is Baptist Minister Lynn Ridenhour from Independance Missouri. He has a You-Tube channel with his name. He heads up Building Bridges Ministry, Independence, Mo. Lynn says a mature thing about believers of other faiths: "I may disagree with them, but I will not criticize them."
Lot's of pastors are watering down the message. Thier not doing unbelievers a favor. Lds requires that everyone must eventually take Thier secret temple endowments to get to Thier father in heaven.
Ray Conger I saw Ridenhour's video and he's either not a baptist preacher or he's extremely ignorant to Mormon beliefs. The Mormon church contradicts everthing in the Bible and because of that, they believe in a false god and a false Jesus so they won't be going to heaven. He should be praying for them and trying to lead them to the real Jesus instead of smiling and supporting their faith while they and their families go to hell. Just because he's a baptist preacher doesn't mean he's not lost too.
@@delkeith285 To be clear, I don't worship a god. I love and worship the one and only GOD of the Bible, YHWH. The creator of everything that was created. Don't you?
Bro. Wilcox is a great teacher. If you listen carefully, he is actually expounding upon great truths and deep doctrine, but with simplicity and love, it is amazing.
The gospel is what you need, jesus needs to be your foundation BEFORE the realization of joseph smith is undeniable, more mormons leave belief altogether because they didn't have the historic foundation of the lord and his gospel, they based everything on the restored version. Please don't be afraid to test all things, I pray the lord inspires you to research his truth, not the church history till you have enough of the bible to preserve faith in jesus.
@Steve No one is going to hell. There is no such place. The idea of hell/Devil/Satan was used by 10th century clerics to scare the shit out of children and adults---to keep them compliant and PAYING!!
@Steve I'll try to remember your name, Steve. It'll be difficult because there will be so much to see and do over "there" that things that seemed important on earth, diminish to insignificance. Will you remember my name when you meet God and he tells you, "Steve. You deserve hell but there is no such place. I know you're disappointed but you'll get over it. Here are the keys to your heavenly mansion....it's located right over there next to Davey Jones place. If I can accept Davey I can accept you! I [God] didn't create no JUNK!! Welcome to heaven!!"
Brad was almost overly nice. I wish he would have posed some of the harder questions like “if there are no second chances, do you believe that all who have never heard the name of Christ (a majority of people who have lived on earth) condemned to hell?” And pushed Steve a little more on some of his beliefs
Thank you for this. Let's join together in love against the true enemy. Realizing both come from places of love, trying to live up to what we believe, serving and loving and relying on God.
Heidi Reis John 20:17 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Jesus is our God and Father of our salvation and eternal life. But even He has a Father, who is also our shared Father. The Father of our spirits. Romans 8:16-17 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. Mosiah 3:8 8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary. Jesus was like God the Father before this life. He is the Jehovah of the Old Testament and yet even he has a Father in Heaven that he adheres to and worships. He taught us to pray unto the Father in His Name. At Christ’s baptism as he rose up out of the water it was the voice of the Father coming out of heaven saying that this was his beloved Son in whom he is well pleased.
We may believe in a person with the same name but there the similarity ends. Mormons believe in a created Jesus, the spirit son and first born of God and one of his wives. This makes Jesus a created being, contrary to the Bible which tells us he has existed "from the beginning", and less than God. Mormons believe that Jesus is the oldest of God's spirit children and that Lucifer is a younger brother, Evangelicals reject this and believe as the Bible teaches that Jesus is God in the flesh (Emmanuel, God with us). Evangelicals believe that Jesus accomplished everything necessary for salvation, living with God for eternity. Mormons believe that Jesus' atonement provides only a partial salvation (essentially resurrection) and that to live eternally with God (Celestial Kingdom) requires works and obedience to earn their way there. There is nothing wrong with civil dialogue but the gulf is far too wide to assume that we have real fundamental and essential beliefs in common.
“We don’t read about second chances.” The entire concept of repentance and the purpose of Jesus Christ’s atonement is to extend second and third and fourth chances to those who fail over and over again. Really great conversation to listen to, enjoyed the respectful discourse. Just hard personally as a Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints to hear there are no second chances. Glad to see this video overall.
I have read the King James version, the Spanish Reyna Valera version, and the JST translation side by side, and the JST translation, is the one that reads hand in hand with the Reyna Valera version, including periods, and comas. Unbelievable! King James has entire paragraphs that were eliminated, but that are found in the JST, and the Reyna Valera. Joseph Smith did not speak Spanish.We thank Thee Oh, God for a prophet! Testimony of a former evangelical.
My biggest problem with the Book of Mormon is the numerous anachronisms it suffers, including the obvious plagiarism of the KJV language from a book supposedly to have been written in a time, hundreds of years before the KJV ever existed. From a land to which it had no access to any Old World records relevant to the Torah (OT).
Lot's of religions use the name Jesus Muslims believe he was a prophet Hindu and new age believe he is a guru. But Jesus is God eternal his blood apart from works is a christians eternal hope
Hi friend. I am Christian too. Quick question about your belief and some thing I wondered about what Catholics believe. Do you believe Mary is the daughter of God since God is Father of all?
@@alexbakerloo1979 Your question is far more complex than, at first blush, it appears. But I'll answer it as succinctly as I can. 😊 The Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary is a "creature" of God, in that she created by God, as we all were. We do venerate, but we don't worship her, as the Mother of God, because by doing so, we are acknowledging the divinity of Christ. I HOPE that answers your question. If you have any more, please feel free to ask! Blessings! 🙏
@@quinataanthony hi friend. Thanks for your reply. Ephesians 4:6 says God is Father of all. Following your answer, do you believe this does not apply to Mary? Is Mary not a daughter of God in the same sense as all other female Christians? I understand how you interpret she was the Mother of God, at least whilst Jesus was incarnated but pre-crucified
I tried to answer your question, NOT knowing what kind of Christian you identify yourself as, since LDS members (which I suspect you might be), identify themselves as Christian, as well. With regards to your question, even the angels are "creatures" of God, having been created by God. When Christ took form as Jesus, "5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,[a] 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,[b] 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,[c] being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Philippians 2 5:11. Now, if JESUS didn't consider himself special while He walked the face of the earth, what are the chances Mary did? ,“Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.” Luke 1:38 This "sonship" you bring up was written AFTER the resurrection of Jesus, not before, or during, so your argument, by Christian scriptures doesn't hold water. 😊
Please note the huge difference between the two beliefs. We see monotheism and polytheism. Both can’t be right. We can and should be polite. But to say that since we are both well meaning so it doesn’t matter, is to reject the gospel.
But this has been very pleasant to listen to ive learned a great deal..i love how mr wilcox explained everything he answered alot of my questions very well
The word 'Bible' did not even come about until 200 AD.. The Book of Mormon was written in 600 BC. The word Bible is from the Latin Biblia. The last book of the Bible was written as late as 90 A.D. and the collection and canonization of all the biblical books developed over time thereafter. However the Book of Mormon speaks of the 'Bible' nearly 600 years before the New Testament was even begun to be written. Joseph Smith was definitely a con man. 2 Nephi 29 3 And because my words shall hiss forth-many of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible. 4 But thus saith the Lord God: O fools, they shall have a Bible; and it shall proceed forth from the Jews, mine ancient covenant people. And what thank they the Jews for the Bible which they receive from them? Yea, what do the Gentiles mean? Do they remember the travails, and the labors, and the pains of the Jews, and their diligence unto me, in bringing forth salvation unto the Gentiles? 6 Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? 10 Wherefore, because that ye have a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my words; neither need ye suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
@Faye Lewis A translation is the act of transferring linguistic entities from one language into into their equivalent in another language. Joseph smith translated the Book of Mormon from the original language into modern english, he didn’t copy word for word. Meanings of words change over time, so the exact same word used then won’t necessarily have the same meaning it does now. For example silly used to mean “blessed with worthiness”, whereas now silly has a completely different meaning. The word Bible was used correctly to describe what we understand today as the bible, the word of God and a testament of Jesus Christ. That is not a good argument for Joseph Smith being a con man. Joseph smith had a 3rd grade education, and to complete a book with the details, stories, and numerous different styles of writing as he did in the short time he did, is 100% a miracle. Just a friendly suggestion because it is very interesting, but you should look into why it’s pretty unbelievable that he could have written a book like the Book of Mormon! Also, not trying to be confrontational, just want to add in some clarification!! :)
@@lei9810 The good news is that you don't have to believe the Book of Mormon is true or join the LDS church or believe that Joseph Smith is a true prophet of God to get into heaven. Forgiveness of sins, eternal life, exaltation and salvation are all free. That is how much God loves you!
@@fayelewis5476 I completely agree with you!! Salvation comes through Christ and Christ alone! Joseph Smith is only someone who points to Christ, invites us and helps us learn how to go to Him and become more like Him in nature :)
@@fayelewis5476 and in response to the last message that I think you may have deleted (I can’t see it) , yes the Jews were enslaved by the Egyptians, but why would that mean that they don’t speak the language? I think that would mean even more so that they would speak the language since they were surrounded by it. For instance Africans who were enslaved in America, did they not over time learn to speak English, which is not their native tongue, even though English is the language of people I’m sure they despised and still have feelings of hatred and resentment towards, they still learned how to speak English. Point being, just because you hate a group of people (for good reason even) doesn’t mean you will never learn their language. Again, not a very good debate on that point. Though with king zedekiah I do admit that I don’t know much on that topic, but I think it’s really amazing that you’re that knowledgeable on that, I wouldn’t be able to quote dates like you have :)
And we are playing the part of God when we raise and train our children and we sometimes let them experience things that we could prevent because of the lesson that they must learn from the Mis- Take....
1st Peter 3: 19: "By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison." Don't know how much more clear about what Christ did after his death and before his resurrection than that!
You see how the guy on left , is kinda pressing gently but Wilcox still trying to bring back brotherly love despite the difference , he doesn't care about the difference he cares about having a good open heartfelt sharing time 😍
Like two kids discussing why their favorite action figure is the best. BUT, doing it as respectfully as they possibly can. And that's the gold here! No violence is going to stem from this conversation - which is saying a lot when it comes to dogma. Personally, I think we'd all be better off focusing on what Jesus focused on in the synoptic gospels (love others as self - as you have done .. to me), instead of following all sorts of religious authorities. But I'll settle for people doing their best to be respectful while discussing teachings of their own religious authorities. I do appreciate it.
Jesus set Himself up as the ultimate religious authority. He wants a secular teacher, He called Himself God and died because of it. God is real brother. You don't have to make up your own purpose because I know it can't be fulfilling trying to do it as best you can. The better way is Jesus.
Oh, if there was a way to know which of us is finding more fulfillment. Sounds like you think you would win that contest. More power to you. It must feel good thinking you feel better than me. Can you site where Jesus set himself up as the ultimate religious authority? Where did he call himself God? And reading the Synoptic Gospels it seems clear he died because he sharply critisized the religious authorities of his community, and they felt it was their God ordained DUTY to silence him. When you don't bow to those who think they speak for God, it's very - very dangerous. Jesus showed the way, and exemplified actually living his own teachings - in the very situations he warned his followers they might face if they followed him. Following Jesus will draw ire from religious authorities first and foremost. At the end of the day, we both agree Jesus is the way to follow. I just think your understanding has more to do with believing the "right" things. The Synoptic Gospels don't focus on belief. Look up what Jesus' answer was when asked what we need to do to have Eternal Life in the Synoptics. Do you want the reference? I'm willing to site it if you're curious.@@AndrewGiles688
I often find Protestants hostile towards those that don’t believe as they do. It is sad in this day when we should stick together as allies. They seem to forget that as much as they feel others are in error so do others feel about them. It is good to see people merely having a dialog in a respectful manner.
If Mormons want to stick together with other religions why do the shun members who leave Thier religion and kick out Thier church schools students who join other religions
@@deborafrench2316 They don't. That's your answer? lol I've talked to Mormons and their biggest fear in leaving the church is family and what will happen to them. Why is it so difficult to get their names removed from the records, sometimes requiring lawyers to get done? You should check out the Wilder Family videos on leaving the church. She was a tenured PhD professor at BYU and her husband was a high priest and they left with their entire family. Why do you suppose that people in such a high position in the church would just up and leave?
@@deborafrench2316 Yes, Debora, they do. I grew up in Utah. Only "true" Mormons can enter the temple, others are considered apostates (one of many things Mormons share with Muslims). Anyone is welcome to enter a Jewish Synagogue or Christian Church.
When Brad spoke of the many nuances in Christianity . But mormonism is just as diverse. There are hundreds of mormon sects with their own prophets and apostles. Even in the big church, the members are divided. I was a devout mormon for 30 years and was saved by grace, learned the history, and left. I loved the church and was shocked when I learned the truth. There are too many problems with the changing doctrine. Also, mormon VIP heaven requires me to be one of millions of wives to one husband. I never wanted to be a God, so mormon VIP heaven feels more like VIP hell. Mormonism is all about them and what God's going to give them by making them a God. Loving the biblical Jesus and being saved by grace is all about Him and what He already did for me. I will praise Him until my very last breath. I pray that the mormons, will open their eyes to Jesus Christ!
The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is that God's ideal pattern is one man and one woman. He may command differently from time to time, as stated and seen in the Old Testament as well as in the Book of Mormon, but that is the exception, not the rule. Either you were taught by someone who misunderstood the doctrine, or you yourself misunderstood it. This sort of antagonism is not Christlike, and I hope we can all learn from one another with patience, faith, and love. I can testify that as a member of His church, I know and love Jesus Christ. He is the Savior of the world and He will come again.
1:08 Steven Crane: "In essentials, Unity. In non-essentials Liberty. And in all things Love." Brad Wilcox: "How come the Mormons are left out of that?"
I actually found this conversation incredibly unhelpful. There was this pattern. The evangelical would bring up a topic and ask the Mormon a foundational question. The evangelical would bring up how he differs from the Mormon and explain the evangelical belief. Then the Mormon would say "we are the same" or "we believe the same thing". And then the Mormon would backtrack on what he had just said. All the Mormon wanted to do was equate himself with evangelicals, but clearly described things differently. The Mormon was a smooth talker and instead sharing Mormon doctrine he just wanted to sound like he was the same.
Sorry you felt Brad was too merciful, unjudgemental, inclusive, loving, connecting as the Savior is. He exemplifies Jesus as divine. The pastor shunned Brad, acted superior, acted as if HIS 16th century invented religion was definitive. Nope, Protestantism had no origin in God. No direct input via vision, or revelation. Jut a disaffected dude rebelling against 1500 years of accepted Christianity. If anything LDS, Catholics, Orthodox are in more agreement. Evangelicals are the oddballs theologically.
2 Peter:17 "For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, of whom I am well pleased" said the Father to the Son.......
Please dig a little deeper on who jesus is and what exactly his gospel is and means to you, your church should be secondary to your personal devotion to the one that redeems you, when the truth about smith hits you in the heart I pray the lord can catch you. Please check out: The ex mormon files, this is stories of people who found the gospel and a relationship with the lord, amazing stories wherever your heart is with god. The gospel topic essays, look into the footnotes and research from lds.org, and please remember that jesus predates and has nothing to do with the history of the mormon church, these claims need to be looked at separately. He was crucified on a cross made of wood, yet created the hill on which it stood. I was born and raised in the mormon church, I've seen both positions in this dialogue, please don't be neutral or subjective to the christian claims about the mormon church, I pray you educate yourself and retain the lord when its over.
When we read the scriptures, it helps to ask ourselves if we are interpreting scripture literally or symbolicly or somewhere in between. Each group interprets some things both ways.
I am a former Roman Catholic nun-a casualty of Vatican II- who explored other paths. Each new Bible I buy have omitted verses from the older Bibles. This Committee on Bible Translation makes me nervous. Mark 16 now ends at verse 8 ! "These verses are an inferior quality and must be rejected" Yikes!
The evangelical guy will never understand the truths proclaimed by the Latter-day Saint point of view without the gift of the Holy spirit. By the same token I felt brother Wilcock interrupted the evangelical guy too much without Fully allowing him to articulate even his questions. But I understand brother Wilcocks passion about the truths he is expressing.
As a Christian I have the Holy Spirit living inside of me. Christ never said that you had to believe a book was true or that a church was true or that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God in order to have salvation. The LDS church wants me to believe that a married man who got a 16 year old girl pregnant, married two sets of sisters, two sets of a mother and her daughter, 11women who were already married to other men is a true prophet of God. I would need the gift of a lot of evil spirits to convince me that Joseph Smith is a true prophet. I have higher morals than Latter Day Saints.
@@fayelewis5476 Joseph Smith never got a 16-year old pregnant, nor did he do the things you're accusing him of. Also, like many critics of the church, you interpret "sealings" as marriages, and they simply didn't act as marriages. Joseph was not engaging in sex with these women; rather, sealings were done for only the world to come. To find the answers to any of these charges, go to *FAIRLDS.ORG* and use the search function. You'll find that many of the critics don't have the slightest idea of what they're talking about. The Jews have a tradition concerning a messiah who would come and prepare the way of the great Messiah ben David, the Christ. This first messiah would come to prepare the way, and he is known as Messiah ben Joseph, or the anointed one, son of Joseph. According to Jewish tradition, Messiah ben Joseph will be a restorer, or one who brings back that which was lost. He specifically brings back, or restores, temple worship. Joseph Smith was told early in his life that he was a descendant of Joseph, and he restored temple worship. MbJ also was supposed to restore the Jews to their ancestral homeland. Joseph Smith received the keys for the gathering of Israel from Moses in the Kirtland Temple in 1836. He sent Jewish apostle Orson Hyde to Palestine to exercise those keys. And within four decades Zionism took root and the Jews began returning. I personally believe Joseph Smith was this Messiah ben Joseph. Read the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith never could have written it, and it is true. Also, check out Jeff Lindsay's excellent website and see his extensive documentation of what the church believes and what it's doing. 👍🤔
@@johnroberts6695 i recently watched a RU-vid video about Joseph of Egypt in 1805 BC and Joseph Smith born in 1805 AD...chiamus in the earths timelineand Christ's mortal ministry at the meridian of time
The gift of the Holy Ghost is our walk in life having Christ in us This gift or gifts of the spirit of God comes only from God It does not come from a particular church or man only God. Peace
@@legacy756 I think you made a mistake, use 'Satan' instead of 'Holy Ghost' because Holy Ghost doesn't 'illuminate' against anything He has inspired to be written in the Bible. Book of Mormon is full of such contradictions.
I think this was nice and I wonder why the LDS rep didn’t go into all scriptures that support (which there are) but I thought it was interesting the humility that showed.
I would have to respectfully disagree the LDS member kept agreeing with the evangelicals questions but his words simply disagreed with him it’s like he would say yes we agree perfectly and then state something that completely disagrees with the evangelicals statements
I have found you can wrest the scriptures to support many different belief structures, why are there over 2000 christen denominations? All having different doctrine, and there are very different if drill down in. I would rather find the common ground and let the rest work it self out.
@@rodneyficklin9281 all having differences on tertiary doctrines, but evangelical (Bible believing) Christians are United by the gospel. That we get to God by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone
I love how respectful they are of each other and the way they approached this. Brad Wilcox actually really moved me, I can tell how much he loves his faith and how deeply a part of him it is. My only issue is that we DO worship a different God and a different Jesus, and Christian’s shouldn’t be afraid to speak the truth even if someone gets a little butthurt over it. Mormons can say they have a wider lens they view God through all they want, but it doesn’t change the objective truth and facts that the characteristics of the Christian God and the Mormon God are very different. This conversation is certainly impactful though and im so happy I stumbled upon it.
Loved this. Would love to see more! What a great example to talk about strongly felt sacred text and feelings and being civil and building each other still in the process.
As a mormon I know of no scriptures in the New Testament that are superseded by what our profit has given us. And I have been insulted over and over again by evangelicals who believe they can cast judgment on our Faith.
Brad disagrees by agreeing for example at 46:45 he is asked so u believe that the death of Jesus occurs in the garden to which he replies “no, we believe it occurred in the garden on the cross.” Which is just a huge question mark for me
There is a God the Father and there is a literal Son Jesus Christ who is resurrected and the Holy Spirit/Ghost each individual Gods and one in agreement and purpose. 1John 5 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
@@binren3984 yes it is absolutely. In the OT, the term Elohim is used. Elohim means Gods plural. Eloha is the singular for God and this isn't used. To support the plurality of Gods: Genesis 1 26 ¶ And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: "Our image, after our likeness" The word our is also plural, if it were a singular God then it would be "my image..." and the Hebrew term wod be "Eloha" for God singular. Grammatically the N.T would never make sense if there was just 1 God. Using names such as Father, Son and Holy Ghost which to many with even some sense of understanding can realise there are 3 individuals or 3 persons. The word "person" actually means "individual human being" or in this case God. The trinity loves to go on that God and Jesus are "one" but what the term "one" means is explained in: 1John 5 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. One means "agreement" or purpose. The Godhead comprising of 3 individual persons agree together as to the salvation of mankind. Understanding the term "one" in this way then clarifies scriptures like; John 17 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. There is so much supporting 3 Gods in the Godhead that we are only scratching the surface Take Jesus's baptism, here all 3 Gods are represented at one place all at the same time. We have Jesus in the water being baptized. We have the Holy Spirit descending in the air and God the Father speaking. Matt 3 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. So many examples of 3 Gods scriptually as grammar like; Jesus prays to His Father not Himself, Jesus has come to do the will of His Father not his own will. Jesus is sent by the Father you can't send yourself. When Jesus prays then who was He praying to? The scriptures explicitly state there is A Son, there is A Father and there is A Holy Spirit. There is a lot to digest and take in here. Consider it carefully take your time all truth takes time to come realization. If you are serious you can even look at the History of the Trinity doctrine and how that came to be. Cheers
@@Apbt-rv7zw I appreciate your long message however I don't doubt anything in biblical scripture I believe in the Trinity three personages one being I believe in the Hebrew the Shema Hear O israel the Lord our God is one. The Israelites were monotheists One God I do not believe in polytheism I don't believe Joseph Smith saw God. He had a narcissistic attitude Where he always had to be one better than all the rest. It shows in his writings. Where he wrote himself into prophesy. That's a red flag right there. The total regression of Gods ? There had to be a beginning John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God God is the only God and will always be the only God Fact: There is no Heavenly Mother Jerimiah chapter 7 and chapter 44 I believe in Sola Scriptura and Sola Fide I believe in a God that is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow And doesn't always change his mind. Polygamy, Polylandry, Blood Atonement, Blacks not having the Priesthood, punishing little children cause their mother or father are gay. I believe that's a God of Confusion It's not so much that the BoM is Religious Fiction, it's the Mormon Doctrine it's not biblical
I love Brother Wilcox, but he tends here to dominate conversation and speak over the other gentleman. He could have been more respectful and a better listener in a two way conversation Overall, I loved his comments. Just wish he'd been a listener too
What a beautiful doctrine! In countless instances, people die without ever even getting a 1st chance. Yet, everyone will be given a fair opportunity to learn about and accept or reject Christ by their own choice.
I guess this is good overall. Brad Wilcox is great at connecting to other people. He's great at making people comfortable and finding common ground. You're also never going to be able to get him to say something he'll regret. Still, I wish the discussions didn't always have to go this way: A member of the Church of Jesus Christ defending the gospel against attacks, while we have to listen patiently, with teeth clenched, listening to the illogical and false beliefs of our accusers. I guess it wasn't any different for Paul, or Jeremiah, or even Christ himself.
It's disingenuous to in any way compare Brad Wilcox's discussions with Paul or Jeremiah, and frankly offensive to compare him to Christ in the same situation. You'd be much more accurate to compare Brad to a Muslin Imam attempting to convert a Christian believer to his way of thinking. Mohammed and Joseph Smith, Jr. had a great deal in common. Paul, Jeremiah, and Joseph Smith had nothing in common at all. Jesus Himself (the genuine Jesus, not the fictional creature who was once also the man Adam, the angel Michael, and the brother of Satan) warned of the likes of both Mohammed and Joseph Smith in *Matthew **7:15* "Beware of false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." I grew up surrounded by all things LDS in northern Utah in the 1960s. The LDS church has changed many things it believed then (we were taught, for example--as Brigham Young wrote--that people with dark skin were cursed by God). The genuine God of the Bible is the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8). He is eternal, unchanging, and clearly dismissive of the nonsense espoused by the followers of Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and company.
Bear I assume your speaking of the trinity as illogical? Having been raised Mormon I could not relate to the Mormon god and his demands illogical. The problem with the Mormon god who grew up on kolob and has a physical body it is not The Father God . the Mormon jesus is less then god therefore unable to forgive sin or save . It is illogical to say Mormons believe in one god when they have seperate gods and believe that magic rituals can make themselves gods.
@@ArsPraestigium No, I'm not being disingenuous when I compare Brad to Paul. I know Brad Wilcox personally, and I respect his educational and missionary ministry, both domestic and international. It must be obvious to everyone that he is the guest at this event. This is not a mutual event. Both of these men are not interviewing each other. Brad never asks the questions for Steven to explain his beliefs. It is 100% the other way around. Steven asks the interview questions, and Brad must defend and explain his position. I lament that Latter-Day Saints from the Church of Jesus Christ are always on the defensive against inquisitions from other Christians. The entire premise of this "conversation" is to show how respectfully these two parties can engage, but even at the same time it is clear that all that has been achieved is to levy attacks that are less vitriolic on the surface. I would have been more pleased if this portion of the conversation were half as long, and for the second half Brad asked the questions and Steven had to demonstrate why his beliefs qualify him to call himself a Christian.
Salty Bear I concur with your assessment of the interview nature of the event. Dr. Wilcox doesn’t pose questions, which is unfortunate. Steven should be required to defend his interpretation of faith. Even evangelicals don’t all agree on the nature of the Trinity. That said, I still can’t condone comparing an LDS theology apologist with individuals in scripture. That, in my mind, is very much comparing proverbial apples to oranges. The two camps cannot be reconciled on the most fundamental level. The LDS conception of neither God nor Christ are consistent with traditional Christianity, regardless of denomination.
I was a 4th generation Mormon. My relatives were the original pioneers. I went to BYU. Mr. WILCOX seems like a very nice man. He sounds just like my professors at BYU. I was questioning church history and asked my Old Testament Professor about the scriptures that say if a prophet professes ONE prophesy that does not come true, he IS A FALSE PROPHET! Joseph Smith made many FALSE prophesies. One was he actually gave a "specific date" that ZION would be built, the Lord told him that. It never happened! Zion was not built anywhere to this day. Thats just one of his false prophesies. My professor had no answer when I said,"doesn't that make Joseph Smith a false prophet by our own church standards and works??? He said he had no answer that I just need to believe in the church with blind faith! Say what??!!! I LEFT his office hysterically crying. I called my dad and asked the same question. My dad was a Stake President! Guess what, he gave me the exact SAME answer as my religion professor! That was enough. I never went back. Drove home to CA. Never went back in to a Mormon church. Its teaching is SOOO CONVOLUTED! Thank Jesus I am now a true follower of Jesus🙏❤
What I’m seeing from a Latter Day Saint perspective is that we and evangelical Christian’s alike both think that, through Christ’s atonement, we can become Christlike. Evangelical Christianity thinks we can be 1%, 5% or 10%. And LDS believe that through his infinite atonement, we can become 100% Christlike.
1:17:00 "We wouldn't say Jesus went to preach the Gospel in hell but He went to proclaim victory." 1 Peter 3:19 (KJV) In whom he also went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
I really liked Brad's approach to this conversation, but I feel like he could have used more scriptures to back up his beliefs and doctrines, so that those not of the LDS faith would have been more likely to accept that Mormons are in fact a Bible based Christian, religion. I kept expecting Brad to use bible scriptures to prove the truth and reality of Mormon doctrines, but alas he did not. If this was a debate Brad would likely have been viewed as losing, because of all the "we feel", and 'we believe', statements without the scriptures to back them up. Most people don't understand or know the scriptures the way that the LDS people do. So, they are not inclined to view Bible scriptures as being interpreted the way LDS doctrine interprets them. However, if we could show how harmonious and doctrinally consistent those interpretations actually are, they are more likely to understand or at least accept that the beliefs are biblical, even if they don't fully agree with the interpretations.
Using scripture would not have helped as both interpret scripture differently and would have developed into a theological proof based argument. The point was two men sharing Their Faith, Their Feelings, when you do this you build bridges and plant seeds God can grow.
I think the LDS speaker did right in not quoting overwhelming scripture on his points of doctrine. It would have dampened the gracious spirit attending and given the devil an opening. It really wasn’t the time and place. That may come later and in a more intimate place to some listeners.
As an LDS person I can assure you there are many scriptures in the bible to support our doctrines. Almost every doctrine we believe in can be supported by biblical scripture. However, using scripture to support a doctrine is much easier than proving doctrine. It seems that no matter how plain a scripture is there is always a way to get around it if one is slick enough to know how to get around it.
@@jerrycall2121 I totally understand that. my only concern is that this conversation isn't just for those talking, but is in many ways more for those watching, and many of those watching are unaware that many of the things Brad said are directly from the bible, which those listening say they believe in and accept as the authority, but since the references were not sited, they may never know that he was actually speaking from the word of God that they accept. so they go on thinking that the LDS doctrine and interpretation is wrong merely because they didn't know that it comes from the words they believe to be from God. I'm fully understanding that you cannot please everyone and that certain things are geared toward certain goals, and maybe this discussion was not geared toward a goal I like seeing things geared toward. I guess, from my perspective these types of discussions are generally geared toward common ground and understanding, but having only one side sites where they are getting their beliefs from, then the audience who normally won't go look it all up after the fact, will lean more toward believing or accepting the side that gave the references over the side who didn't. it just makes it look like Brad was speaking more from his own ideas and beliefs, than he was from the bible. That was really my only concern, is that people will see this and think Brad is making it up, because he didn't site any authoritative foundation for those ideas and beliefs. it is a small thing, That I've been consciously working on in my own life, so that is likely why it stood out to me so much here.
Is it just me or did the evangelical get cut off a lot? Kudos to both for civil discourse. It does seem though, that this tended to go as many of my conversations go with Mormons: I begin to talk about something but I can't get all the way through what I'm trying to explain before they jump in to either say they already agree with me (but they might not be able to say that if they listened all the way through) or to explain their point before I finish explaining my point. I'm not saying that this dialogue was something to complain about. It seemed very amicable and I give props to both for being willing to have the conversation. It's just that I felt forced, as I continued to watch, into the same uncomfortable place I am usually in, with conversations between evangelicals and Mormons, where it seems the Mormon is doing the same thing the church does to its members who have questions: "Well, what about this?" "Oh, don't go down that road. Just focus what you've been taught."
This evangelical disappoints me. I am in disbelieve on how much he did NOT reference the word of God. He asked more questions than actually proving how Mormonism contradicts the Bible. I am baffled. Just read the scriptures below. Isaiah43:10,11 Matthew 7:15 Romans 11:6
Linda Cook You don't understand Mormonism. They don't believe in the God or the Jesus of the Bible. It's a long story but there's only one way to God and it's not through the Mormon church that contradicts everything the Bible teaches.
@Steve Sadly true, Steve! Where in the bible does it say that God used to be a man who came to earth to impregnate Mary to produce Jesus, his "brother" Satan, and everyone else? Jesus created Mary and everything else that was created because He is God in the flesh and the Bible tells us that over and over.
@Steve Linda didn't imply that Mormons were doomed. She pulled an Oprah Winfrey believing that there are many ways to God. Mormons that don't believe in the Trinity or that Christ was God incarnate are doomed.
@Steve I gotcha now, buddy! lol In her defense, she's just a lost soul who's probably never opened a bible. I find it hard to believe that anyone who has read the bible would become a Mormon or any of the other religions that contradict it. God Bless.
So when Steven Crane said that his interpretation of 1 Peter 3:19 when Christ went to preach to the spirits in prison was not to save them but rather to declare victory just doesn’t seem very Christlike to me at all. So basically it sounds to me like Steven believes that Christ went there to gloat, to brag, to “spike the football” so to speak and say “haha, in your face” to all those in hell. That just seems so wrong, no, he went there to preach to those spirits in prison to open the door and give them a chance at salvation.
I am a believing latter-day saint, but I do struggle with our interpretation of the fall as presented here. It seems to imply that disobedience to God can be ok, as long as we have good reasons. I see no reason why God could not have prepared another way in his own timing for Adam and Eve to have children and progress. Maybe after testing their obedience, he would have allowed them to partake the fruit. I still believe in a "felix culpa" but it was God's goodness and mercy, not Eve's wisdom that made the fall fortunate. I think a good analogy is Joseph, whose brothers sold him into Egypt. Ultimately, God used this act of evil to save Egypt and Israel, but we should not attribute this redemption to the foresight of Joseph's brothers.
Jared you should be a believer in Christ not a church. A church is for an assembly of Christ Believers who worship him The truth of Christ is in you. Peace
@@six1nyne Yes you have probably seen many of my comments but my question is sincere. Genesis 3:16 says that woman would have painful child births. So to me this means that children would have been born even if they didn't eat of the forbidden fruit. I will try to not debate this as I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on that scripture. I'm in no position for debate on this subject. When I was in the lds church I never thought about this scripture but it has me thinking now.
@@six1nyne Thank you for responding. Do you believe though that if they hadn't eaten of the fruit that Eve wouldn't have children? I'm more curious about this question in the context of Genesis 3:16. Thanks again for responding. Really I'm not looking to debate just more understanding on this particular scripture.
