You know what annoys me in the whole casual vs hardcore debate? The black-and-white view: you're either a button-masher or you want to be one of the best players on the scene, winning tournaments after having spent hundreds of hours on a game. There's a wide spectrum there.
I'm directly in the middle. I own a few fighting games and know spacing, timing, and my character's inputs, and I enjoy doing well against AI or friends, but I don't bother learning frame data and obscure techs. The most advanced thing I learned using the internet was a long nd damaging combo in fighterz. I prefer figuring things out on my own and at my own pace
When playing a fighting game, it's always important to have a pocket character who isn't actually in the game. For example, I'm always ready to break out my pocket Chun-Li when I'm playing Melee
Clarification about Melee: Sakurai actually said he's happy Melee players are playing the game with such dedication, because that's how he designed it. What he regrets is the decision to make the game like that in the first place.
Which is just... incredibly frustrating. What that means is that melee wasn't an accident, but an intentionally great fighting game. And the only thing keeping us from getting even better sequels is the game's creator himself.
@@AllUpOns Yup, in fact he very specifically and purposefully removed advanced tech from the later games. Just going from Melee to Brawl removed ledge cancelling aerials, removal of L-cancelling, removal of horizontal movement carrying into jump, etc.
It's crazy to think Melee can still organize big ass events, especially when there are 3 newer games in the series and it requires a CRT. That blows my mind. Melee people are so passionate, it's beautiful.
As a melee fan, I don't think it's fair to say that melee players are any more passionate than other games' fans. However, I think it IS fair to say that melee exhibits the strongest combination of all the factors mentioned in this video. 1. Top-tier IP 2. Super fun for new players and easy to understand. (This is what sets it apart from traditional fighters) 3. Plenty of difficult tech that is both rewarding to learn and entertaining to watch. (This is what sets it apart from its sequels)
@@wrongtime9097 thats just factually wrong. L cancelling and dash dancing were put in the game on purpose, and wavedashing was found out during development and left in. Those 3 techniques are 95% of what melee players actually do
@@wrongtime9097 a luigi main in 2002 asked sakurai what this thing he discovered was, and sakurai not only explained the correct way to wavedash but also a good situation to use it
I'm fine with reducing the skill entry line to rake in new players, but NO ONE will say that reducing the skill ceiling is also good. It's okay to make a game easy to pick up; but don't make it easy to master, cause then it'll be easy to put down.
instead of making fighting games easier, the games itself should explain the mechanics and everything about it inside the game, alot of my friends that won't play street fighter because they get confused picked up guilty gear (in my opinion a harder game to play because of lack of shortcut inputs etc) because the tutorials and challanges taught them everything they needed to know about how to play the game other than just basic controls, and that feature will allow more casual players to get in on the competitive scene without compromising any aspect of the gameplay such as shortcut inputs
I agree with this, games like skullgirls can teach you everything, but it's super hard to get into them. What I recommend people do is buy the game, play the tutorial, then go play street fighter.
yea man GG is getting more life with revalator which should be great. yea man those games are beyond dead at this point, there is a few players but you would never see anyone other than people on fightcade.
Now if only Masashiro SaKUrai took that approach with Smash and explained the more advanced mechanics instead of removing them (though I do agree wavedashing should've been removed just because it relied on Melee's shitty airdodge). Making L-Cancelling a custom ability called Smooth Landing in Smash 4 was a start.
Pearse McLaughlin I knew this too well. When me and my brother got Street Fighter 4 (not ultra), we couldn't figure what the Z motion was until we spammed enough on the joy stick to figure out it was some weird up down thing... This was actually wrong from what I know now, but we thought it was just super hard so we did it the dumbest way possible thinking we were smart as hell for figuring it out. A few months later we figured out the right way a just felt completely stupid, and during this time we actually got Street Fighter 4 Ultra. Lol.
You know what sucks? When you can't play any games with your brother because he gets angry when you win most of the time. and then he goes as far to hit and call you names and rage quit even though he is freaking 17. It's sad i can't enjoy doing anything with family
5:28 This explanation is gold. I hate hearing casuals bash Melee because they say it makes the game too advanced. Having these techniques don't affect a casual's enjoyment of the game because he/she won't use them. You can still do item filled free-for-all matches, but a competitor still can access all the advanced stuff to their liking.
Yes! That's literally what I try to tell all of my friends who are casual smashers. They think advanced techniques give other players an unfair advantage when really the onus is on them to learn it to keep up, especially since nearly all of the techniques are not game-breaking. It's like saying an NBA player should not learn to do dribbling tricks and difficult maneuvers because casual basketball players can't do them or haven't put in the time to learn them.
+bigblackracoon It does feel shotty and unfair to get beaten by something you don't know how to use properly yourself. but complaints about that are still stupid imo because the better and more dedicated player will win even without advanced maneuvers necause they are better at the basic stuff as well.
normal casuals really shouldnt have a problem with You using advance techniques but if they bash the game or deem it unfair, They themselves are too lazy to learn the mechanics. advance techniques or They will STILL lose.
Wavedash is actually a fairly poorly implemented mechanic though. 1/3 the cast barely slides at all or has so much landing lag with it or pre-jump crouch frames that it's basically unusable for them. Not to mention waveshine loop.
*"Taking away mechanics that Armada and Mang0 enjoy isn't going to make me enjoy the game any more with my friends, and it's not going to increase my chances of beating Armada, anyways."* This here. That's all. This.
@@whatadefault3485 That was the fan game Fighting is Magic, before Hasbro ordered a cease and desist on the team that made it. They have a new fighter called Them's fightin herds on Steam.
regarding a game's "worth", I play what's fun for me; playing something I don't enjoy just because a lot of people play it, wouldn't (by itself) make the game more fun for me, so I disagree with "going for established franchises", and with putting "popularity" (and playerbase size) over "personal fun". doesn't help that newer fighting games (from newer developers) have more games (not just fighting games) to compete against for attention.
I agree. There are so many good new fighting game series out there that aren't street fighter or it's garbage 5 th entry. Pocket rumble, lethal league, blade strangers, undernight inbirth, skull girls. These are just a few examples of great games being under appreciated.
This channel is amazing, you guys have no idea how much informative, professional and overall amazing videos you guys have been posting! I wish this channel gets popular way too quickly and not just popular to the FGC, but the whole world. People need to watch this and other videos to have better perspective on fighting games.
Me and a friend started playing SF2 Hyper Turbo Fighting, only the 2 of us, it got pretty competitive between us and we're constantly one upping eachothers game. It has been/continues to be an amazing experience
The fighting game/series I spent the most time on, hands down, was Naruto Ultimate Ninja, to be honest. When the earlier (non-Storm) games released, everyone within my circle of friends was following the series and they were quickly talked into giving the game a chance, knowing at least half of the roster and therefore having absolutely no problem getting into it. Also, PS2 gamepads were relatively cheap and easy to get, so if somebody destroyed one while button-mashing, they simply replaced it. I probably couldn't find anyone to play Storm 3/4 with if I tried, so I mostly just mash my way through the Story mode and move onto the next entry.
If you had asked me years ago about fighting games, I would have said "I'm not interested, they look too complicated, the mechanics are too complex, it feels like studying instead of playing a game." Fast forward to now where I started watching high level gameplay of SFV, and tried out Granblue Fantasy Versus with friends at EGX. I thought to myself "Yo this actually seems pretty fun". Now I can't wait for GBFVS, and I'm already playing SFV as a bronze scrub and loving it when I beat an opponent tougher than me or win the rematch and beat them twice. I am by no means a good FG player, but the right game for me has good neutral/footsies and a slow pace. The satisfaction you get when you hear that K.O! after beating someone who mopped the floor with you is a satisfaction no other game can give me. Also Chun-Li.
Great video! I have enjoyed your work for a while now, but Im still finding new stuff to think about when watching your old videos =) Keep being awesome!
As someone who doesn't play many fighting games, I think the skill gap matters a lot. The only fighting game I ever really got into was Smash Bros, because it is possible to play it for just 10 minutes and feel like you're getting the hang of it. I've bought others like Street Fighter 4, Soul Calibur and Injustice and tried to play them but they're just difficult to start playing. Even when I do well, it feels like I got lucky, because it's very hard to play it in a way that feels fast and smooth and deliberate. Honestly a large number of characters can be a burden too. If a game has 50 characters and they all have their own combos and such and you don't know them, it's just intimidating. It takes so long to figure out how to just play one character and you don't even know if you'll end up liking them. In Smash Bros, each character has unique moves, but you have an idea of what to expect from each one and they all have the same number of moves, with no lengthy combinations or confusing bars to charge up or anything like that.
Some points I tend to look at: -Does the setting/style appeal to me? -Is the bar of entry not too high? (For me it tends to be with later Tekken games.) -What game modes are there? Survival, team battle and such tend to be nice to have. -Is there some descent singleplayer content? A storymode, adventure mode, character creation or such really helps. -Is the roster a descent enough size? It gets boring when seeing the same few faces again and again. -Is offline multiplayer properly supported? Sadly some games let me down with that. I couldnt care less about online multiplayer.
@@alandunaway3000 Soul Calibur 6 was not even announced yet at the time, but it mostly fits the bill. A shame it continues to disappoint with the character creation options which are still pretty bad. They keep chucking in modern garbage that does not fit the theme at all. Story mode is pretty bad too, both versions of them and the initial roster is small which would have been fine if the DLC options where good. They aren't. Hilde has been the only DLC character so far, out of six, to offer a new weapon style that's very usable for CAS and not a weapon either someone else on the roster already uses or is something too oddly specific and rediculous to use for CAS. A shame since the gameplay is really great, best it has been since SC2 I believe. The content and roster just is not there to really complete it.
8 лет назад
I honestly can't believe that the MOBA genre is bigger Than the FGC. It's uncanny to me...
+Sebastián Fereira don't quote me on this because I don't have a source but it's probably the accessibility. The popular MOBAs are F2P and USF4 is around 30 bucks on Steam (off the top of my head). Another reason may be that it's so much easier to pin the blame for a loss on a "nub team" in a MOBA than accepting the defeat and striving to "git gud" in FG. Another factor may be the communities and tournaments. MOBA and FPS tournaments are pretty damn corporate so there's a lot of advertising and marketing involved which means more viewers and more players. The FGC on the other hand seems to be more community oriented (barring sponsors).
+Golem215 Then add in just how easy it is to get into a moba on a technical level compared to a fighter and you've got a few clear reasons. Too many people will give up on fighters when they see how much they have to learn
+pointynives I think the learning curve for Fighting Games is just way different. With MOBA and FPS it's a slow uphill climb that starts out pretty shallow then curves up pretty sharply near the top while FG the learning curve starts out steep then lets off a little but not too much moving forward.
+Sebastián Fereira i'm a burnt out league of legends player getting into fighting games. I would have totally preferred to get more into fighting games earlier but all of my friends and other people in general around me played league =/
8 лет назад
yeah i do get it, they're easier to pick up, easier to play and they're mostly free, but, imo FGs work so much better for the viewer, matches are way shorter, it's just one on one, they're easier to understand even if you haven't played the games, granted, there's a bunch of stuff that will definitely go over some peoples heads at first but that happens in most if not all sports, so overall i think the experience is way better for the audience and still the views on MOBA tournaments are crazy in comparison.
I'm kinda new to fighting games after playing them in my friend's house and seeing a televised broadcast of a Tekken 7 qualifier. Well, I'm not one of those people who are highly privileged as kids and getting whatever they wanted from their parents.
The popularity of fighting games used to come from the easy access of arcades, finding an opponent wasn't a hard task and any experienced player would teach you the secrets, 1 week going to the arcades and you'd be finishing the game. Right now if you fight good guys they'll make fun of you and tell you to go play something else. the fighting game "community" isn't exactly nice to newcomers. and i'm ok with that i grew up with fighting games anyway :P
5:48 "easy inputs" sure, you can do all the moves the game intended you to do with the press of one and a flick of the stick in a direction, but EASY INPUTS for things the game didn't intend like wave-shining, multi-shining, L-canceling, wave-dashing, etc. These all require EXTREME timing. Sure, less buttons, but the timing is so tight that it makes it harder than if the timing was more loose with more buttons to press. When I first tried street fighter 5, I had a friend who liked it and when he taught me basic things like hadouken, tatsumaki, shoryken, etc, I could do them within the first few tries if not the first. When I learned Melee, and when I tried to teach other people Melee, there was no way they could even come close to waveshining or even wave-dashing within the first few tries. These are both things you need to learn to play. (Wave-shining is only with two characters, but is still a basic thing you MUST learn to play them) Bare minimum, it was a few hours to get maybe two or three successful ones while playing. Anyway, as you can tell, I'm super triggered. Lmao. Melee is harder than you think. By no means easy and I would say much harder than street fighter.
You took "Easy Inputs" wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy out of context. I'm pretty by easy inputs, he means easy to execute special moves. He's talking about in the sense of a casual playing the game for their first time, how accessible the game is for new comers. He's not talking about the advanced techniques when he says "Easy Inputs"
Nice job. Just discovered your videos & have been playing fighters since they started. It's interesting how gameplay & familiar brands factor into what people play. I got into P4A through being a GG & BB fan, and had never heard of Persona. After P4A, I watched playthroughs of the RPGs & watched the anime. 720s & HCBx2 motions have been quite tough for me, even after many years, but I tend to work around them best I can if I'm using a character that has them.
a) Fun characters that I want to play as b) Fun gameplay that keeps me engaged Or, in other words: It has to be fun! Also, my personal point c)... "Low skill floor, high skill ceiling". That's important to me.
This video made your channel worth subscribing to (for me) - awesome stuff...! I live in Lagos, Nigeria and it is an absolute struggle finding other people to play fighting games against.
I've honestly been wanting to get a fighting game to play and get good at, but I haven't really found one I liked a lot besides Skullgirls. I also haven't found many other games with a character like Eliza from Skullgirls who is the person I've liked most. I'm still hella casual and trying to train in combos, but so far the one person I liked a lot was King from King of Fighters 14, not sure I like wanting to master 3 people though.
Franchise is really good for bringing in new players. I bought Injustice because it was a DC game. I am a huge comic book fan. I had no interest in fighting games before that. Now I am a proud owner of MK9, MKX, MK Armageddon, and MK Deception. Can't wait for Injustice 2 to come out this May!
+Almighty Legend Not too long. I would recommend trying out a few games and seeing what you're most comfortable with. Then, improve your skills in that game. After you're decent with that game, slowly start to move outside your comfort zone. For instance, I started with NetherRealm Studios, then went on to the 3D Midway games, and I'm about to pick up MvC 3 myself. I started with NRS because I wasn't comfortable with the 3D fighting of Midway's MK Armageddon/MK Deception, and I was even worse with the way you rolled the analog stick for combos in Street Fighter/MvC. Eventually you'll get the hang of it, just take it inch by inch. I'm not sure if this method works for everyone, but it did for me. If you're not sure about this method, perhaps try jumping into the deep end. There are also plenty of helpful tutorials on RU-vid to help you get the hang of characters & their combos, or help you understand all of the technical mumbo-jumbo such as frame data and whatnot. Hope I helped.
Mysterious Enigma ooh man nrs games are the worst when it comes to burning out players due to changes and patches that totally screw the game over long term.
Are there any free fighting games on the pc? I want to start playing fighting games but I don't really have any money because I'm still a student so I'm finding a free to play fighting game
Spend 60-100 hours learning one move in a fighter or complete an amazing rpg. Yeah ima do my rpgs. A better time investment in my opinion. I like fighters but i just can't force my self to play alone for any extended period of time. So i improve incredibly slowly.
If your game *feels* right, then I think it's worth playing. I always give a description or comparison to another game when I describe how it "feels", which is weird, admittedly. But if a game feels unfinished or clunky(I guess is the best description?) its easier to just drop it, since playing won't bring about a worthwhile experience.
+ShakerGER I don't think he meant that. He said casuals like seeing more experienced players play the game. This is a valid statement (I like watching Diamond League players from time to time :D). He didn't say there were no other reasons people watch it. He did not say that you can't look for tricks and strategies and other playstyles or that you cannot be really engaged with the game and still like to sit back and watch somethimes. And I don't think he intentionally implied it either. It's obviously normal for even the best to still look for things they can learn from others. A true master is an eternal student.
Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Heritage for the Future is a pretty good example. There are still weekly tournaments, a discord, and overall, an incredible competitive community, and new players because of the series, even if a lot of those newbies are just screechers who speak in Jojo memes.
Omg, that clip of fighting is magic is so bizarre to see now that Them's Fightin' Herds is officially out. I forgot how long they were working on that game
melee can be played on pc though so there's that. I don't know if there's any difference between lag in crt tvs and decent monitors though so there might be disconnect between timing on pc and on a GameCube at a tournament.
I liked that message in the end. As long as you have people who want to play the game in any accessible platform there will be people to play it. Makes sense in a regional standing too. USA and some parts of the west grind online and if they are lucky to be in FG city hubs like New York, San Francisco and such, they will always get a match whether its online or offline for the popular FGs being put out. In China, parts of Asia, South America and Mexico you will never get a shortage of matching anyone in KOF 98, 2002, KOF 13 or the upcoming KOF 14. If you aren't up to snuff you will probably get your ass kicked by some kid who whose been grinding KOF combos in the machine for awhile now. For Tekken 7 you will get competition in both Korea and Japan. The game is only accessible to them for the most part so it makes sense.
I feel the biggest barrier for any fighting game is teaching new casual players how to play at a decent level, and the most important factor for new players how fun this process is. Street Fighter has a huge learning curve that’s not fun to learn imo. Smash Bros. Melee and Brawl’s single player campaign made learning super fine, and still had training mode for more advanced techniques later. I think Street Fighter can learn to make learning fun for players.
You can't get into SSBM when you have a friend who's a pro falco and woops your ass all the time combined with having to learn how to wave dash and L-cancel while trying to get good grades in school and wanting to play other games like Street Fighter, Overwatch and Final Fantasy.
He's using those two, because they're the two most popular fighting game franchises. His videos are mostly blanket statements anyways, so why does it matter if he doesn't show those games on screen specifically?
Viewtiful Z Because it starts getting monotonous and bland to see the same characters in the thumbnail. Variety of characters would be more interesting.
By the way, it just KILLS me that people can't get past the learning curve. Fighters are trying to make things easier for newer players, but how far can they go?
