Ancient Ruins and the Book of Mormon - Dan Vogel

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The purpose of this video is to explore what was known about the ruins and antiquities of the New World before Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon in 1829, and how that information compares with what is claimed in the Book of Mormon. In other words, does the Book of Mormon’s content demand an extensive knowledge of New World antiquities beyond what was known by Joseph Smith’s contemporaries?
This video is based on chapter 2 of Dan Vogel, Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon:
Religious Solutions from Columbus to Joseph Smith (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1986).
online at signaturebooksl...
“A wide range of sources used intelligently and fairly. ... A sound scholarly job”- Francis Jennings, director emeritus, D’Arcy McNickle Center for the History of the American Indian, the Newberry Library

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15 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 259

@RickPhillips 9 лет назад

I appreciate the hard work and tremendous expertise that goes into these videos. Your RU-vid channel is a great resource.

@gansosmansos 5 лет назад

You're not joking. The research is better than FBI grade.

@presidentnixonsanus 9 лет назад

Thanks again Dan, love your work. The most important journalism happening in Mormonism is yours...

@carlscholfield9034 Год назад

You might enjoy RU-vid videos from Michael P

@deskjockie4948 7 лет назад

B. H. Roberts, faithful Mormon historian, wrote a book titled, "Studies of the Book of Mormon", in which he stated that Joseph Smith was "brilliant", had a "creative imagination", and was very capable of writing the Book of Mormon himself. Your video shows where he got much of the information to flesh out his "Nephites" and "Lamanites". The Mormon church now admits that Smith was a treasure digger, and the mounds he dug into would have been full of skeletons with their artifacts. On the Zion's Camp march, Smith cavalierly dug into a mound and disturbed a grave, which showed a lack of respect for that culture's dead, and the story he quickly made up regarding the skeleton's former life is evidence of his creative ability in storytelling. His own mother recorded that, years before he dictated the Book of Mormon, he would tell the family "amusing recitals about the ancient inhabitants of the land, describing their culture, dress, animals they rode on, and their form of worship as if he had lived among them". What is ironic is that Smith used the Moundbuilders as the model for his Book of Mormon peoples, but then the Mormon church got sidetracked into promoting the Central and South American people as those of the Book of Mormon for over 170 years. Now, after DNA has proven that the Central and South American people came from Asia and not the Middle East, there are those in the church who are promoting the so-called "Heartland Geography", going back to the original statements of Joseph Smith and other early church leaders in an attempt to prove that the Moundbuilder culture was that of the Book of Mormon. What this really does is give more credence to the conclusion that Joseph Smith simply used the common knowledge and speculations of his day to write a religious 'history' that was based on a culture that was already in place. It truly was "brilliant", and has deceived millions of people into believing a story that is no more true than The Lord of the Rings.

@henochparks 4 года назад

hahaha DNA proves Native Americans have other blood types than Asian. You lie.

@patricianoel7782 2 года назад

Coincidentally, I am currently reading “Studies of the BOM”. I’m about half way through and find it hard to put down. Press on, friend

@preble1980 2 года назад

Lol

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

@@henochparks The Clovis and pre-Clovis people in the Americas were Caucasoids (about 13,000 to 7,000 years before the Jaredites). Why do you Mormons mock and jeer any criticism? Are you that morally challenged?

@lindamaemullins-wr1jg Год назад

❤ and may explain why they have stalked my hillbilly ass for over 40 years in southwest Virginia trying to recruit me 😂

@Spaseebo 6 лет назад

Many thanks, Dan Vogel, for your excellent videos which demonstrate impeccable scholarship & research. Your presentations are of great value, especially to those of us who are trying so hard to highlight the errors of Mormonism, and to inquisitve, truth-seeking Mormons. Best wishes always!

@cdowis 6 лет назад

>impeccable scholarship & research Perhaps that is true, but it is based on faulty assumptions and the conclusions are full of flawed logic. "Mormons have traditionally thought" ==>> his entire premise is based on a faulty assumption. The current consensus is mesoamerica as the primary location for the historical record. He is well aware of that but it does not fit his agenda.

@markolmstead4709 2 года назад

@@cdowis > but it is based on faulty assumptions How do you figure? Mormons have traditionally thought this. While more recently the location may be shifting to mesoamerica (which doesn't really work, either) you can't negate the traditional assumptions.

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

@@cdowis Aztec, Mayan and Incan ruins fit no description of Jaredite/Nephite cities. Ultimate fail, MORmON!

@utah133 9 лет назад

Excellent video! Joseph Smith, in his simplistic attempt to reconstruct what may have happened in pre Columbian America, equated the glacial drumlin "Comorah " as a burial mound. My opinion of Smith is that he was brilliant, imaginative and enthusiastic, but naive. I really think he did try to take in all the contemporary data he had access to, but used it in an abberant manner. He is very interesting to me, but I'm a former Mormon now. I am an atheist, preferring to think of faith as an invalid epistemology.

@daric_ 8 лет назад

Fantastic research, Dan! Bravo! I'll try to order a copy of your book.

@27prg 9 лет назад

Great work Dan, very thorough! Can't wait to watch the others. Thank you!

@MarkAElwood 3 года назад

Hey Dan, If Joseph took the route to from Palmyra to South Bainbridge between Seneca Lake and Cayuga Lake he might have also come in contact with various other forts described by DeWitt Clinton. These include Romulus, Ovid, and Ulysses. I personally also located what could be the remains of a mound on the John Markel farm described by Lee Yost where Joseph Smith was rumored to have used his mineral rod to search for treasure "as he supposed was hid or buried in or about the embankments of the old fort". Whether this is a true story or not, Jospeh's probable encounter with a mound at some point must have made an impression on him. We have a few mounds outside Atlanta that have survived the passage of time and they are still epic today. Thanks for your videos. Always packed with information.

@taylor.rafferty 4 года назад

Appreciate your contribution to this particular historical topic. You will go down in history as one of the preeminent scholars in your field 😃

@oliverdownunder9397 8 лет назад

Great video…as always…thanks Dan. Staggering that this 'religion' can go on.

@mrjuvy49 Год назад

It has been proved to a business

@lashram32 5 лет назад

Dan Vogel your videos are kick ass!!! Thank you for all of this hard work and academic insight.

@wyominghorseman9172 9 лет назад

Excellent video. Well researched and very informative. Thank you.

@rmhutchins7 6 лет назад

I enjoyed your video. It was very interesting. Thank you!

@awolLDSasap 9 лет назад

Impressive Dan. Well done.

@markh.harris9271 4 года назад

There is no way that Joseph Smith wrote the BOM; however, as your research shows, the limited knowledge of earth works in the BOM is indicative that whoever wrote it (Solomon Spalding) was aware of the mounds and mound-builders on the Western Reserve. Sidney Rigdon touched up the Spalding historical fiction with 1200+ words of the KJV (1769) and then presented that to Joseph Smith (angel of light) who pretended to dictate the work to various scribes via the chocolate colored seer stone.

@Warjacki 9 лет назад

The mound shown at 14:25 appears to be Miamisburg Mound in Miamisburg, OH. The one at 14:45 looks like Emerald Mound in Mississippi, not far from Natchez.

@confused_beekeeper 4 года назад

“Still six more than the Book of Mormon”😂😂 this line cracked me up

@Lion_Hamza 5 лет назад

Love to watch this Videos Mr. Vogel 😊Thank you.

@lindamaemullins-wr1jg Год назад

Thank you sir ❤

@protochris Год назад

Joseph Smith copied his stories from a book by Samuel Niles titled "History of Indian Wars". He followed it with his own touch of personal stories from his life.

@aa11ct9 Год назад

13:08 my little 2 cents: tumuli is the plural word for "tumulos" (mounds) in latin / old spanish. Very very very interesting work! I keep coming to your channel over the years

@steviedfromtheflyovercount4739 2 года назад

Excellent video, enjoyed the history. God Bless.

@able76 4 года назад

Wow I had a very detailed dream of something similar covered in vegetation and filled with riches. ⛰

@michaelquarry5636 8 лет назад

There no ancient ruins that book is fiction no facts. Nephi didn't excist. it no false

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

"Nephi" would be the plural form of "Nephilim." Not exactly God's people...

@michaelparks5669 Месяц назад

Archeologists are finding evidence of buildings in ancient America. Best study up Dan.

@danvogel6802 Месяц назад

You really need to watch the video before commenting.

@michaelparks5669 Месяц назад

@@danvogel6802 You need to find a different job instead of bad mouthing Mormons for fun and profit.

@davefletch3063 Год назад

The real question is how these ancient buildings were constructed when they had no horses, and had only primitive tools

@harrymarks9397 Год назад

You are misinformed about where the Book of Mormon took place. It wasn't Central or South America.

@danvogel6802 Год назад

The Book of Mormon isn't real history, but clearly reflects the Mound Builder Myth prevalent at the time the book appeared. The Myth explained that all the ruins and mounds were the work of a white-skinned race of Christian agriculturalists who were destroyed in the Great Lakes Region by the ancestors of the Native Americans. Sound familiar? This fact outweighs any BofM evidence. Like this myth, the BofM is hemispheric and explains the origin of all the Indians. Limited geographies are nothing but apologetic attempts to escape problems. The so-called Heartland Theory is especially heavy-handed in its reconstruction and attempts to appeal to the prejudices of believers. See my video on the Mound Builders, and stay tuned for a video specifically on geography.

@parthin 2 года назад

Good account of how Smith was misled by early speculation and false information. He wasn't the only "Israelites in America" person.

@johne.christensen7147 Год назад

There were many battles fought near here…… Another continent isn’t near.

@delvis1131 2 месяца назад

This video actually bolsters the story of the BOM. I can see how it can be debated both ways with the info in this video.

@danvogel6802 2 месяца назад

Tell us how this video bolsters the Book of Mormon. You really think the Nephites were responsible for the ruins in Peru, Central America, Mexico, as well as the mounds of northeastern United States? The main purpose of the video was to show how much Joseph Smith could have known about ancient ruins before 1830, because some apologists like to claim this was all proven after the Book of Mormon's publication.

@delvis1131 2 месяца назад

@@danvogel6802 I sat and thought for awhile after watching this and you're absolutely right. I'm coming out of mormonism with the view that the BOM was talking about the Nephites and now understand that JS got his ideas from the mound builders. Thanks for what you do. It's been a great help to me.

@peterbrown7688 6 лет назад

The dudes described in the book of Mormon are Chachapoyas. Fair skinned ancient Peruvians. There's the rub. These dudes even had sling shots like King David, and represented cows and stuff that aren't supposed to be in New World. I tell you Mormons, get with. the Chachapoya program.

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

Like Smith's treasure digging, Mormon archeology only turns up dirt!

@carlscholfield9034 2 года назад

Dan, I'm sorry to say, however, you are way off base in thinking the BoM took place in Central and South America

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

I don't think it took place anywhere, but the geography the BofM describes is hemispheric. The neck of land connecting the lands northward and southward is Panama. This is what the early Mormons believed.

@michaelabbott9616 Год назад

This should probably be said that this is what SOME early Mormons believed. Not all, and especially not Joseph Smith. He knew where the plains of the Nephites were.

@moorek1967 6 лет назад

Captain Juan Pardo of Spain built a fort by what is today Knoxville, Tennessee. This was prior to the English being on this continent. Sooooo, yes, the Spanish built forts with iron implements and wore armor.

@jamescutler428 2 года назад

"That's still six more than the Book of Mormon." That was good. I suppose that's a fair rejoinder. On the other hand, what about the fact that the holy land is the most extensively surveyed archaeological land in the world, by far, especially compared to the dense, often impenetrable jungle of places like the Peten Basin? Non-Mormon Mesoamerican archaeologists can be quoted saying that less than 1% of identified Mayan cities have been professionally surveyed. If you run the math, you should still wind up with a decent probability of zero Nephite cities identified by their inscriptions.

@danvogel6802 2 года назад

Still, you can't turn the lack of evidence into a possibility of proof, or the fallacy of possible proof. A probable case needs to be made and the literary and historical problems lower that probability.

@jamescutler428 2 года назад

@@danvogel6802 That's true. This and the other related videos by you explaining the contents of the Book of Mormon are actually the first thing to help me change my mind about its historicity. This is a very compelling analysis so I thank you for your work!

@theGentlemanCaller73 4 года назад

A few observations: 1 - The Stephen's quote cannot be comfortably ascribed to Joseph Smith. It's well known that Woodruff and Taylor were running the T&S, despite Joseph being nominally listed as editor. This is evidenced by the publication of Udney Jacob's pamphlet "The Peace Maker" in 1842 without Joseph Smith's knowledge. When Joseph found out, he published an immediate repudiation saying that if had known, he would not have had it published. This is only one of innumerable instances of people ascribing words and acts to JS. 2 - The BOM demands a limited geography model. Even LDS apologist Dan Peterson, of whom I'm not a fan, concedes that no one is going very far in any direction. The BOM itself refutes the Mesoamerican model. Your description of events beginning at the 32 minute mark--a transcontinental migration--just aren't supported by the text itself. Also, the Jaredites were discovered by the Mulekites, not the Nephites. The Nephites encountered the Mulekites at Zarahemla. 3 - Nephi sees in a vision "many multitudes" of white, European protestants settling in Nephite lands. No such migration took place in Central or South America. 4 - The Nephites primarily built with wood. In the leadup to the final battle at Cumorah, the Lamanites executed a scorched earth policy, burning down every Nephite town. We should not expect to find Nephite buildings 1,600 years later. 5 - Nephi describes a temple built in the model of Solomon's temple, but not a single stone from Solomon's temple has been found. 1 Kings, which describes the temple, probably did not reach its final form until the Babylonian Captivity, after the temple was destroyed. So, what did it really look like? We don't know. Also, there were no "huge temples" or "pyramids" built by the Nephites, as you assert the BOM claims. 6 - Of course Mayan hieroglyphs tells us nothing about the Nephites. The groups are in no way connected. 7 - It doesn't matter what Joseph Smith said or believed. You let the book speak for itself. The burial mounds referenced in the letter you quoted were found in Valley City, Illinois--which is way too far away to have any connection to the Nephites or Lamanites. I'm not a Joseph Smith apologist. I do not uphold him as a prophet as the LDS church does. Making the BOM about anything other than the Gospel and Doctrine of Christ is a fool's errand. When we compare the literary quality of the Book of Mormon to the very poor literary quality of Joseph Smith's revelations canonized in the D&C, the difference is quite staggering. There's no way Joseph Smith could dictate this complex of a book on the fly at 23-24 years old. Impossible. JS's critics give him way too much credit. Not too mention that Joseph later introduced many doctrine and teachings that directly contradict the BOM. Not that it especially matters to most people, but emerging research shows that the Book of Mormon shows evidence of Early Modern English grammar, syntax, and phraseology obsolete by 1825. The work of Stanford Carmack and Royal Skousen have shown JS simply didn't write it. interpreterfoundation.org/author/stanfordc/ Suggesting that the Book of Mormon is a reflection of Joseph Smith's psyche is too simplistic to take seriously.

@danvogel6802 4 года назад

The purpose of this video was to determine if the Book of Mormon contains any information about ancient American ruins that was not known to JS’s contemporaries. It was found that the Book of Mormon reflects what was commonly understood about ancient America at the time. 1 - I didn’t say JS wrote the review of Stephens. 2 - The limited geography is an apologetic device invented to overcome distance problems posed by the traditional hemispheric geography, which is the best fit despite distance problems. Panama fits the BOM’s “neck of land” better than the Isthmus of Tehuantepec. 3- Traditional hemispheric geography has no problem with this since Nephite lands included North America. However, this would be a problem for the Central American theory, which is the most popular among apologists. The so-called heartland theory is a joke. 4- Heleman mentions that the Nephites built with cement because of the scarcity of wood in the land northward (Hel. 3). 5- What Solomon’s temple really looked like is not relevant. You can’t say the Nephites didn’t build “huge temples” or “pyramids.” The BOM doesn’t give enough information to answer that question. It mentions large palaces, temples, and towers, but its descriptions are too vague to say what exactly is being described. 6 - Right, the Mayans and Nephites were different: one existed and the other didn’t. 7 - What JS said about the BOM matters if he was its author. The point is that JS believed the burial mounds of North America contained the bodies of the Nephites because the Mound Builder Myth located the great battle between a white race and the ancestors of the Indians in the Great Lakes Region. At some point, I need to make a video on why the limited geography theory doesn’t work and how the hemispheric model fits. I totally disagree that JS’s revelations are inferior to the BOM. No one can say JS could not dictate a book like the BOM. That JS’s teachings evolved after the BOM is not evidence that he didn’t write it. Carmack and Skousen are cherry picking their evidence, which makes no sense anyway.

@steviedfromtheflyovercount4739 2 года назад

@@danvogel6802 Excellent and post. I am a history nerd..... so this is is very interesting. God Bless.

@Zelig_G 2 года назад

Wow 😮

@cdowis 6 лет назад

A question Dan Vogel needs to answer ==>> why did Joseph Smith do so much research in these books if the primary audience would be farmers in the state of NY? Books about Inca ruins and ruins in Peru in South America?????? Who exactly is the audience for this book.

@deskjockie4948 5 лет назад

Who says that the primary audience would be farmers in the state of NY? From his sending out missionaries, it is apparent that Smith wanted the audience to be whoever would listen to his story, reaching much farther than just the state of New York. My question for you would be, why would Joseph Smith try to sell the copyright to his book, if it really was "Holy Scripture"?

@kentthalman4459 5 лет назад

In his interviews with Dehlin, Dan explains why he believes that JS's core motivation wasn't money, but rather prestige. And yes, that indeed explains much of JS's behavior.

@michaeltaylors2456 4 года назад

Kent Thalman . Sorry if this is crass; but he was looking for another P word along with prestige .

@chainsaw3577 2 года назад

cdowis Hyram wrote the original manuscript at Dartmouth. The theme was changed (from Indians practicing Freemasonry) to Israelite / Indian ancestry. All New World sites are void of any biblical references.

@rogerpreble440 3 года назад

I totally see your point… And as a convert to the church when I first heard about the book of Mormon I thought it was a bunch of baloney and it was either true or it was false… With regards to treasure hunting I totally understand that point of you also as there were so many ancient mounds from a civilization that lived in America before Columbus and there were lots of people that were out treasure hunting in these ancient mountains… As I have come to realize lately the Hopewell culture in the Midwest has a perfect fit for the book of Mormon timeline from 600 BC to 421AD… I see your point of you and I also concurred with that point of you at one point in my life but at this point the evidence is so overwhelming that the book of Mormon is the word of God, I have a spiritual conversion and a logical conversion as a result of archaeology… My parents told me that I was getting involved in an occult… I don't think the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints with it's 16 million members really qualifies as an occult… Great discussion and I do have More of a closed mind on this subject as you do but it's still good to talk in a reasonable manner… Best regards always Roger

@chainsaw3577 2 года назад

No archeological evidence has ever been found to overwhelm you. You are a fool!

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

Overwhelmed? Not a shred of biblical/archeological evidence so overwhelms you that you humiliate yourself in a public forum... Why don't any other Christian organizations support LDS beliefs? (Because they know it isn't true.)

@preble1980 2 года назад

Karl You are so funny bro… You're grasping at straws and you keep switching the subject around… Why don't you just answer a couple of my questions as I always answer yours… So as not to just leave this without answering your question here goes. I believe your question was why don't other Christian denominations support the church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints My answer is I believe they do with regards to humanitarian efforts around the world and other efforts of good faith towards our brothers and sisters no matter what faith they are. However in particular I think you're looking for a different answer and I can give you another answer… In the Christian world there are originalist like the Catholics who believe that they have maintained power and authority from day one from Christ and the apostles There are protestants who have had different leaders who broke off of the Catholic Church or they broke off of a break off of the Catholic Church and in general these protestant religions are fairly friendly with each other! And then there is the Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints which is a complete third category. Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints claims to fulfill prophecy in that it was prophesied that there would be a falling away and a restoration of all things… We are not Catholics and we are not protesting the Catholic Church and there are four could not be labeled protestants… We are a third category We claim to be the original Church of Jesus Christ restored to the earth infulfilment of prophecy in these latter days. Best of life to you always

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

@@preble1980 I have been a Christian minister for almost forty years. I know of no real Christian who calls the BoM anything but a ridiculous fraud. The "Church" has been around since the first days of Jesus Christ's ministry and only became "Catholic" when they chose a "pope" a thousand years ago. Yes, they are full of perverts and satanists, just like the Mormon and Protestant churches and I can't defend them, but the Word of God stands unaltered (easily proved by the Septuagint and Greek Acolytes, and later the Dead Sea Scrolls) and His Church remains unbroken. It's called primitive Christianity. "Common law" means "what is commonly known in the Bible." Yours and Smith's assertions that "the Bible can't be trusted" is dead wrong! Those are the only two questions I can dig out of the pile horse manure you have provided. Since you can't answer any of my previous questions, 2 more for you... 1. Why didn't Smith simply use the seer stone/Urim and Thummin to recover the missing 116 pages? (Why would he start somewhere else and never attempt to recover the original writings with the plates? Maybe they contained the fulfillment you keep talking about that no one else can find?) 2. Why did Moroni appear as an angel to Smith if he was a man previously and an exalted man presently...? Still awaiting a single examinable fact from you... Don't overwhelm me with BS. Many good friends will examine your response.

@preble1980 2 года назад

@@karlgharst5420 Impressive that you are letting scholars review my responses… The reason that Joseph Smith did not use Device to translate the missing pages is because of the evil designs of men… If it's true that those pages still exist someplace and that they were stolen then if Joseph Smith retranslated them Word for Word then the person who got the original papers could alter those words and thus declare that Joseph was a false prophet because the translation wasn't exactly the same With regards to Moroni… And the very nature of his title as an angel and defines him… There are different states of being that people go through… Before we came to earth we were spirit in the image and likeness of God now that we're here on earth with the physical body we again have an image and likeness of God with a body of flesh and bones… Moron I lived a long time ago and was killed in battle and as a righteous man he went to heaven there his duties changed and he became a ministering angel of God… At some point he will receive the ordinance of resurrection and he will have a body of flesh and bones however he will be immortal… Earlier you accused me of calling names and once again in your response you have called my faith a degrading name and made degrading statements about my faith You also have never answered my question about why you were so confident in your efforts to Degra gate the book of Mormon when you admit that you have not actually read it Today I was talking to a pastor… And I'm going to be testifying as a witness against a member of my own faith in the defense of his congregation for some shady business dealings Bottom line is that truth is truth no matter what congregation it comes from, truth is eternal and there is enough evil and wickedness in this world to deal with that originates from Satan… I try to align myself with goodwill towards all of the protestant religions and Muslims and Budicin Hindus who reside in my neighborhood… Because I see the good in all people and recognize that they are not the enemy… People with evil intent and a desire to tear good people down are the enemy May God bless you and your ministry and your efforts to bring people to Christ

@lloyd2542 4 года назад

It sounds like the work of the Roman ARMY!Hmmm !

@DonRobbinsNewCAccountOpen 5 лет назад

-Newby.

@DonRobbinsNewCAccountOpen 5 лет назад

The Mayan ruins cold have been built on the top of the Nephite cities.

@DonRobbinsNewCAccountOpen 5 лет назад

@HellRehab it's just an idea. a possibility. actual cities may be on sunken islands, also.

@krissander1 4 года назад

Or maybe the Nephite cities just don't exist.

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

@@DonRobbinsNewCAccountOpen Not one shred of evidence of the BoM has been found - anywhere!

@chainsaw3577 2 года назад

@@DonRobbinsNewCAccountOpen Are all Mormons semi-literate?

@rexwhitehead8346 6 лет назад

"T(y)UM-(y)uli" not "tum- ULI"

@anisuthideyakoindu 5 лет назад

I am afraid The Holy Ghost left Dan Vogel(what's in a name?) long back.

@allentremper8243 4 года назад

You had me until you actually implied that"The Smithsonian Institution cleared up the confusion of steel pre Western contact, simply by making them"officially" post contact. The Smithsonian institution is one of the biggest keepers of all things that don't fit the established agreed upon history of Humanity, and of the things of legends that would destroy the way we perceive the world. It's a terrible thing to do to completely hide and change some of the biggest things that have happened on this planet, our knowledge of where we came from(not Spiritually, or maybe).

@danvogel6802 4 года назад

Despite what you might think about the Smithsonian, it's a fact that ancient Americans, especially the Moundbuilders, didn't have steel. Do you dispute that?

@allentremper8243 4 года назад

Dan Vogel I reject all history before 1900, we have no clue what happened, but the official story makes no sense, it cannot be true, they are hiding something, they have hid the bones of the Niephilem forever, those mounds are something else, I don't doubt that they found steel, do you dispute the fact that God can teach Whom He Will? I am not standing up for Mormonism, far from it, I grew up in the Faith and understand that they have more in common with the occult world than the Christian world, but then again I can say that for any major denominations.

@allentremper8243 4 года назад

it's not what I think about the Smithsonian, they have admitted to having objects no one has seen, they have shown up at every single crazy find in the Americans, the same as London does for Europe, if we could see what is in their basements, we would never fall for Darwinian theology, without that, no big bang, no God.

@TLMcRae-uu1cz Месяц назад

So wrong...so wrong.

@danvogel6802 Месяц назад

This video is a survey of what was known about ancient American civilizations and their ruins. Nothing controversial. So why do you have a problem with that?

@goldrays5119 5 лет назад

For one, the Jews would never build steps, so that pretty much negates south America, unless they find city's without steps. For two The amount of time it would have taken to build one way or Another wouldn't have been reasonable, and the book of Mormon would have been in North America because of that. For three, The description of building were fortification on already existing sites, and who in their right mind is going to travel three thousand miles to do that. But all the things listed in the book of Mormon have been found, you only need to look for them.

@djkiddrocks1241 5 лет назад

I'm still looking for the horses, the elephants, the wheel, the hundreds of thousands of swords breastplates, not to mention oxen, honeybees, and the countless other things that never existed before the Europeans came.

@goldrays5119 5 лет назад

@@djkiddrocks1241 Honeybees is funny, you cant have life without them, so they have always existed. I found most of those things listed in private collections, so I don't think you have been looking. I thought the graves they have found with the old warriors was interesting, but part of the suppression is to give everything to the Indians. Not to mention the Indians did a real good job hiding all those things from us, and set watchers over them. My favorite is the 60 million in gold with pictures of ships on them, that Is being proven through the Indians there were trade routes and ports more than a thousand years before we got here, and why the Spanish knew to come here. What about the ship they recently found, and as the Indians say they came over on a ship.

@djkiddrocks1241 5 лет назад

@@goldrays5119 okay, just did. Long search. Guess what zero honeybees pre Columbus America, expect fossilized bees that went extinct hundreds of thousands of years prior, and no you dont need bees to exist most plants including fruits and vegetables dont require bees. Now beyond the 0 evidence of bees, just do me a quick favor. Please show me 1 just 1 elephant here in the Americas Joe lied about. Or 1 just 1 breastplate. I agree that the conquistadors and then our own government lied about the native people here, and hid much of what they found as to justify the wholesale genocide of the indigenous peoples, but no.swords no wheels no horses not 1. I just want 1, I dont even need the millions talked about just 1. I'll wait with baited breath for your proof. Thanks in advance

@goldrays5119 5 лет назад

@@djkiddrocks1241 I go by what the Indians say rtfitchauthor.com/2016/02/20/indian-horses-before-columbus/

@goldrays5119 5 лет назад

@@djkiddrocks1241 www.sandiegouniontribune.com/sdut-centuries-old-bones-of-horses-unearthed-in-2005jul17-story.html

@commonsenseisntcommon1576 3 года назад

B of M did not take place in Central America. Check woodland period in N America. The promised land is the usa 🇺🇸 not Guatemala. 😆

@chainsaw3577 2 года назад

One shred of examinable proof?

@rogerpreble440 4 года назад

Very interesting… And I can understand how this gentleman came to this conclusion… Especially if you are of the mindset that the book of Mormon took place in Central America or northern South America… However the greatest amount of evidence points to the land that the book of Mormon refers to as Is not in central America but it is in the central part of the United States between Florida and the great lakes… Do a little research into the mound builders and their geography and their cities and their DNA or a more plausible fit for the book of Mormon… I always wonder about the motive of people that come out against the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints… I've never witnessed any teachings inside the church against any other religion… I am also a convert to the church of Jesus Christ of latter day saints and each and every day my testimony grows stronger both spiritually and logically that this is the restored gospel of Jesus Christ and that the book of Mormon is the word of God… And that it invites all to come in Christ as I do I...

@juke1225 3 года назад

The whole premise of JS concept was that all other Christian demoninations were wrong and that after 2,000 years he all of a sudden has the "true church" teachings. Which is totally ridicuous. So, God completely messed up with the amazing Bible, then decided to play a treasure hunting game to occult "translation" given to a con artist "treasure hunter" to save us all? Sure...

@steviedfromtheflyovercount4739 2 года назад

@@juke1225 Agree. Good post.

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

Roger What would be the point of Christ appearing to the Nephites if they were to be all destroyed? The BoM is a story where evil triumphs over good - not exactly the Christian story...!

@preble1980 2 года назад

@@karlgharst5420 The point of Christ appearing to the knee fights is that they were descendents of Joseph who was sold into Egypt… They were one of the 12 tribes… The Bible is a record in part of the tribe of Judah the fourth born son of Jacob who changed his name to Israel… I think more records will come forth of Christ visit to the other tribes that were scattered. With regards to your assessment that the book of Mormon is a story where evil triumph over good… Before I give you an analysis of a counterpoint, I'm curious when was the last time that you read the book of Mormon cover to cover?

@karlgharst5420 2 года назад

@@preble1980 "...I am the door and gate to the sheepfold... if anyone enter through another way, he is a thief and a robber..." It says on the cover of the BoM "Another Testament of Jesus Christ." (Written by a man who was arrested 42 times for theft, which is a very good reason not to read this schemer's book "cover to cover.") Unlike His ministry in Galilee and Judea, Jesus' ministry in the Americas went to (supposed) Israelites soon to be wiped out with no useful or examinable record kept, meaning His visit was unsuccessful and completely pointless! Unless you can refute me don't bother with a reply... I have yet to meet a Mormon with any faith in the Holy Scriptures.

@robertrosskopf4641 8 лет назад

Vogel conflates what members believed with what was actually stated in the Book of Mormon, drawing associations occasionally where none exist. That being said, he goes to great lengths to establish his view that the Book of Mormon could be a 19th century product. As far as historicity goes, he doesn't really establish the Joseph Smith visited any of these mounds, read any of these books or articles, or described mounds anywhere in the Book of Mormon. It is a sea of conjecture. Although he shows that hilled fortifications were common (and the knowledge of them?), he doesn't mention many of the other aspects of Nephite and Lamanite life. The lopping off of arms, for example, and carrying them as evidence, is not a North American tradition in any indian tribe. Cement, mentioned in the building of houses, is likewise not found in North America. "Cast up" level highways are likewise not known among the indians of rural New York. All of these things are specific to Mesoamerica, and relatively, if not completely unknown at the time of Joseph Smith. Nor does Joseph Smith have any source for the cataclysm in 3rd Nephi, whose effects seem beyond possibility, the subject of mocking and ridicule - yet modern science reveals it to be very plausible and even likely, with the eruption of a Mesoamerican volcano in Nicaragua - one of the largest eruptions known to man - at the time of Christ.

@oliverdownunder9397 8 лет назад

The greater scientific community (including the Smithsonian) agree that there is no scientific evidence to support the book of mormon and don't even start on the completely incorrect Joseph Smith translation of the Egyptian papyri into the book of Abraham.. that was just embarrassing. Yet you are all so desperate to believe that you will defend until the end with continuous apologetics and pseudo science. Dan Vogels view here is conjecture?…perhaps.. but more than just a little plausible to me (and many others). When you start piecing Joseph Smith's early life as a treasure hunter, the failed use of the seer stone for that venture and then into his involvement with religion where he used the same stone again as well as his behaviors in later life he doesn't look good. The polygamy and polyandry and flat out lying to his first wife Emma, him wanting to be crowned a theocratic king in Nauvoo, make the possibility of him being an inspired prophet of God quite frankly ridiculous. Are we supposed to swallow the tale hook line and sinker when we examine all these facts? His character speaks loudly of what most rational people would call a con man. Perhaps a pious con man but a con man never the less. When you look at this man and roll all this up with the 'church's known complete intolerance for it's believers to ask awkward doctrinal and historic questions (Various ex communications for this ...Jeremy Runnells letter to a CES director as one recent very public example) as well as it's obviously deceptive behavior to its followers (showing art work of JS translating the plates in a scholarly fashion when in fact he used the seer stone in his hat as just one example) it just reeks of a hoax…sadly I suspect a financially predatory hoax. I will never understand why an intelligent man such as yourself could allow such an obvious smoke screen to completely block out reason though I see this same desperation to believe in most mormons particularly generational mormons where it's not just belief fanaticism but also entrenched culturally. WAKE UP MAN!! It's a religious scam.

@robertrosskopf4641 8 лет назад

Oliver, you are partially correct. There is no direct corroborating evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. Nor does the Smithsonian wish to find any. No Smithsonian archeologists have ever gone searching for such evidence. I believe they take more of an atheistic view, so why would they? There is, however, overwhelming circumstantial evidence of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. A powerful case can and has been made repeatedly for its authenticity. There are many books on the subject. Unbelievers have also tried to find a story that explains Mormonism - a story that doesn't involve angels or God or gold books. They have sought such a story in vain. They are still trying, for none of the previous attempts are compelling. A case in point is the Joseph Smith Papyri. In order to explain away arguably the 19th centuries' greatest Egyptologist, unbelievers point to minor errors or omissions while turning a blind eye to all the things Joseph got right. They claim that Joseph translated the Book of Abraham from a book of breathings, ignoring the evidence that the few scraps of papyri were just the badly decayed front piece of a much larger book - a book much too large to be simply a book of breathings. It was not unusual for religious books to be attached to a book of breathings; the book itself is religious in nature. Hugh Nibley pointed out that the book of breathings is part of an Egyptian endowment - similar in many respects to the endowment that is practiced in LDS temples. There seems to be a direct connection to the book of breathings and Mormon temple ordinances, something impossible unless Joseph really could interpret Egyptian. I don't believe in coincidences, and there are just too many of them to dismiss the Book of Mormon out of hand.

@oliverdownunder9397 8 лет назад

***** I'm sorry Robert...the Smithsonian are a knowledge hungry lot and I feel that if they believed there was any truth in the book they would have sought it out. It's simply too big a discovery to ignore were there any chance of it being so though I do take your point of them being a scientific organisation. For me the evidence against is rather overwhelming. The errors from the KJ bible appearing also in the bom...the astounding similarities both in theme and text to the book the View of the Hebrews...the geography (even the lds church itself will not commit to the geographical locations. The lack of anthropological evidence and so it goes on. I am aware of many of the books and theories such as Wayne May but frankly its clear that the greater scientific community examines and rejects them. I believe that Robert Ritners book (and several other leading world experts) puts to bed Josephs failed translation of the papyri. When put that together with histories rather daming account of Joseph s character I cannot reconcile the possibility of his claims being genuine. I'm sorry.

@robertrosskopf4641 8 лет назад

Oliver, I understand your point of view. People have worked very hard to discredit Mormonism, and if one believes the propaganda that these people have published, it leads to a very one-sided view. I have studied both sides of the debate. I know both the strengths and the weaknesses of Mormon and anti-Mormon assertions. When we talk about KJV errors in the Book of Mormon, we are really talking about the Book of Mormon Isaiah. Besides the Book of Mormon Isaiah, there are three other major versions. There is the KJV or protestant Isaiah, the Latin or Catholic Isaiah, and the Great Book of Isaiah found at Qumran. None of these versions are in complete harmony. Yet elements distinctive to each of these three versions can be found in the Book of Mormon Isaiah. That is very hard to explain. Clearly, Book of Mormon Isaiah is not just a copy of the KJV Isaiah. One possible explanation of KJV errors appearing in the Book of Mormon, is the final edit done by the printers at Grandin, who used their own bible to add punctuation, italics, etc. to the Book of Mormon Isaiah. View of the Hebrews does have a certain shallow resemblance to Book of Mormon themes, and if one is desperate to find a source (other than God) for Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon, then I suppose it is the best that naysayers can come up with. It is perhaps, one of the weakest arguments, as the differences between the books outnumber the similarities by a 100 to 1. And none of the events of Nephite history can be found in View of the Hebrews. The stories are completely different. If one can overlook the angelic source of the Book of Mormon, the greatest weakness for the Book of Mormon is the lack of corroborating histories; the second greatest weakness is the lack of a precise New World geography. That, and it's religious nature, would put it outside the purview of most scientists. There just isn't enough to go on. That being said, many things have come to light that bear on both of these arguments. One of these is the Mayan history "Titlulos de los Senores de Totonicapan". Written shortly after the Spanish invasion by descendants of the Maya - and using the Spanish alphabet phonetically - it was stored in the Catholic church for hundreds of years. It was translated into Spanish for the first time in 1832 - AFTER the publication of the Book of Mormon. It wasn't translated into English until 1910. According to Mayan traditions, the Mayans were Israelites, children of Abraham, who came across the ocean from the east, from a place called Pa-Tulan Pa-Civan. They had the same language and the same customs. Mayans, of course, were expert in the manufacture of gold plates and stone boxes, and did believe in prophets and seers. The Mayans built cities strongly reminiscent of the Nephites - towers, temples, thrones, raised highways and cement buildings, surrounded by an earthen berm with a palisade of timbers on top. They believed in a pantheon of Gods, and a most High God that was over all the rest. Their language is still spoken today by about a million descendants, and bears a remarkable resemblance to both Hebrew and Egyptian - a strong correlation to the Book of Mormon.

@corbinmcmillen1985 7 лет назад

Wayne may would tell you that the smithsonian destroys evidence

@jameshasapoint7628 5 лет назад

Wow. Talk about circumstantial. You throw some facts out (like quoting authors) and even more suppositions (many believed that...sans any proof), and then claim that your cherry-picked "proofs" (none of which is substantiated by anyone but you) prove anything. To make matters worse, you do not demonstrate the "soundness" of your theories by applying the same approach to other Holy Books (Bible, Quran, Bhagavad Gita et al) to see whether your methodology (such as it may be, for you randomly wander from idea to idea that you feel fits your agenda) would lead to the same results. No. You merely assemble any details you liked, add plenty of "people knew, many believed, it was nearby and people would have seen" statements and *think* you proved anything other than that you are biased and have made an entertaining yet foolish film. Instead of trying to prove God wrong, seek the truth from Him.

@danvogel6802 5 лет назад

James, this is the best you can do? This is what you consider a scholarly critique? It is so generic that you could be talking about any video, book, or essay you happen to disagree with. You are LDS, so we all know you disagree with this video, but we have no idea why. It’s nothing but empty ad hominem. I’m not trying to prove God wrong. Scholarship can’t do that. The thesis explored in this video is: The purpose of this video is to explore what was known about the ruins and antiquities of the New World before Joseph Smith dictated the Book of Mormon in 1829, and how that information compares with what is claimed in the Book of Mormon. In other words, does the Book of Mormon’s content demand an extensive knowledge of New World antiquities beyond what was known by Joseph Smith’s contemporaries?

@jameshasapoint7628 5 лет назад

@@danvogel6802 You presented an unscholarly mess. You presented a hodgepodge of higgledy piggledy suppositions. There is nothing to address any further. If your ramble was academic I would address it as such. Your broken and shattered ego shows that no one had ever told you your work was lousy. But as you want a more academic criticism, here goes as much as you need: Take General Linguistics 101. That is your starting point.

@danvogel6802 5 лет назад

@@jameshasapoint7628 Pathetic, James. You should be embarrassed.

@jameshasapoint7628 5 лет назад

@@danvogel6802 You really can't let go, can you? I must have grated a nerve. Look, I am sure you're a smart guy and have skills, for one thing you are not bad at making videos, but you have little to no logical basis for your argumentation, you bounce from cherry-picked suppositions that moronically suit your agenda, you know zero linguistics and therefore fatally fail to see that much of what you present is based in linguistics and thus commit comical mistakes, and in a word your work is "hack". Sorry you got lied to, that darkened apostate minds praised you up saying you showed academic acumen when what they really enjoyed was your channelling of devilish darkness. Be glad someone with some brains and the Light of the Lord finally told you the truth. Pick up a Linguistics 101 book or even Historical Linguistics and open your eyes. Open them to The Lord.

@jameshasapoint7628 5 лет назад

@@danvogel6802 You're obsessed because I exposed your hack work when the apostates who surround you had praised your emperor's new clothes. Don't be a Hillary or Romney. Take the take-down and do better. Sorry others told you you were brilliant when your work was farcical and foolish. You need training in the fields you took on, at a minimum linguistics 101.

@l.hansens9060 9 лет назад

Thank you for reaffirming to me the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and the divine calling of Joseph Smith as a Prophet through your video.I know you didn't intent to do this but still I am grateful you did.

@deskjockie4948 9 лет назад

L. Hansens Why does the LDS church teach that the Book of Mormon was translated from gold plates, when eyewitness accounts including his own wife, his financial supporter Martin Harris, and one of the witnesses, David Whitmer, say that he put a rock in his hat and then dictated it?

@l.hansens9060 9 лет назад

Both of you have once again reaffirmed to me that you do not follow the teachings of Christ that you proclaim to follow. You judge without knowledge and should not judge at all. You accuse Joseph Smith based on things you read and not study. You can read in the beginning of the Book of Mormon the testimonies of Martin Harris and David Whitmer that an angel of the Lord showed them the golden plates, put them in front of them and the voice of God declared that they were translated by the power of God. I have the same testimony by the power of the Holy ghost revealed to me on many occasions that this is Christ's Church, that the Book of Mormon is the word of God and that prophets from all dispensations have appeared to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery to restore the priesthood and the keys of this priesthood. I am a solemn witness of this priesthood in action and have seen and experienced the miracles that come with it. So what evidence do you have that I should consider the words of God and the Holy Ghost as naught. You claim that my mind and spirit are weak and fragile but I am not the one judging and trying to insult others. I am constantly studying the scriptures and history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as from other religions. I actually just finished a book about the early Christians and rise of Catholicism. I also study each attack on the Church that I come across with. I have never failed to find a satisfactory answer by myself or /and by the Holy Ghost.When the adulteress woman was brought before Jesus, He did not judge her but he challenged her accusers to throw the first stone, if they were without sin. With his finger He wrote they were Hypocrites and in shame they withdrew. How is it then that you are accusing the Church based on faults of some of the members but at the same time are excusing and neglecting the sins committed in your church. Let us fight against the evil in the world together and just respect each-others believes and differences. And if you really want to know if the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the one true church, go ask Him who can tell you for sure and ask in humble prayer and He will let you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, just like he revealed it to so many truth-seekers, me included. God bless.

@l.hansens9060 9 лет назад

I have no pride keeping me in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints but a testimony of its truthfulness. A testimony I described to you before and handed down to me from God through the Holy Ghost. So nothing on your list will change that and I have tried and tested every thing on your list by the way and it has woken me up to the only true Gospel on this earth. By your list, I can see you've been looking on the internet for ways to accuse God's work that you have no personal understanding of. Am I right to guess that you belong to the Greek orthodox church or is this a wrong assumption? If I were to pick of your list and trust in the worlds wisdom then I can ask you: Did not Abraham have more then one wife? Did not David ( 8 wifes mentioned and probably more) or Solomon ( 700 wifes and 300 concubines). When yes, then according to you the Bible must be false. You say racist? Ask the coloured members of the church if we are racists? Ask them if they are for they accept the doctrine that lasted for a long time until God revealed that the time had come to change this. I remember when I heard that revelation and was only 16 years old. I remember how the Holy Ghost immediately testified to me that this was His word given to the prophet Spencer W. Kimball and the fulfilment of the long promised day spoken of by Brigham Young. No archaeological evidence? The internet and books are full of it but the problem with looking for earthly evidence in spiritual matters is that it will never be good enough for him that doesn't want to accept it. Let's go back to the bible: Show me any physical evidence that a group of 1 million people camped out for months in front of mount Sinai. They have been looking but can't find anything. How is it that in the whole of Egypt there is no mention of Moses and the miracles he performed. None, so by your rules the Bible must be false. Where is the physical evidence that Jesus walked the earth and did his miracles? By your understanding the New testament must be false. All I am saying: go to God to find out in an honest way, willing to accept the consequences when he reveals the truth to you and, I promise, He will reveal Himself to you and the truthfulness of this church. God bless.

@l.hansens9060 9 лет назад

The truth is that the sky sometimes actually is pink. As a painter I have seen many colours in the sky. It is not because you have never seen it that it never happens and that me testifying that the sky was pink would be a fallacy. Up till now, nobody, including you, have proven to me anything to be false with my Church, faith or testimony. I embrace the truth and have never feared it. If anything, I'm always looking for it. Furthermore, it is not very Christlike to judge anybody, for any reason at any time. But since your remark about Hitler and the Jews, God's chosen people by the way, I can understand why you are not open to any of Christ' teachings. LDS or traditional. When will you, attackers of the true Gospel, come up with your own original idea's and studies instead of all copying from the same source and then pretending to know what you're talking about. When Christ will ask you about this, you think He will find your answer, " but it was on the internet that it was not true, so I didn't need to look into your Gospel and study it for myself", satisfactory?

@l.hansens9060 9 лет назад

15 million actually. And you sir, have already lost this discussion due to your foul, unchristian-like way of addressing people. But what can be expected from someone who believes the Catholic church is true when in its history popes got killed by the next in line on a regular basis just to gain power. And if you didn't know that, then maybe start studying the history of your church in stead of trying to put down one you obviously know nothing about as can be learned from your comments. And How is it that the current pope, recently, was in a meeting with our Apostles and other Christian leaders to work together in safeguarding the Christian values and morals but that you as a disciple of this church find the need to attack other Christian faiths. I don't know why you are so rude in the way you address people but maybe that could be something you could work on to get you closer to the guidance of the Holy Ghost. I will pray for you. God bless.

@anarchorepublican5954 Год назад

📘⇠🗿🌵🏯🏜...I remember in the 70s and 80s, Books of Mormon, routinely contained a few full-color apologetic color pages with pictures of Maya stone "Crosses" and Aztec "Church Buildings"...and crazy claims that 🐉Quetzalcoatl was Christ✝...you really don't see much of that anymore...