The way that I approached this question is faith and works are not the same thing. The Bible says that those who are justified by works are obligated to keep the whole law. So if faith is a work then the only people who could be justified by it are those who have kept the whole law. If that is the case the only people that can access it don't need it, because they have kept the whole law.
What we call “faith” is a surrendering to God’s god-hood and abandoning our own god-hood. Surrender is the polar opposite of works. Instead of expecting reward for our work/actions/choices, we’re abandoning expectation of reward.
Nowhere in the Bible is written that you can brag with your faith... Biblical faith means that you're trusting someone else. When you trust in someone else, you can brag with the one you trust in. You can't brag with yourself. If you brag with your faith, you'll only praise God.
cos there has to be some really convoluted philosophical reason behind everything god does otherwise you'd just be normal joes going to work and not being god's special friend at all.
Another way to look at this question of whether humbling yourself shows wisdom or not is this: from the outside we can say that the one who chooses to humble himself is wiser than the one who doesn’t. But it’s not true that the one who chooses to humble himself has wisdom in mind in that choice. In fact it’s the opposite. To choose to humble yourself you’re affirming you’re not wise, you’re not good, you’re not holy, only God is. So we can describe that choice as “wise” from the outside, but from the inside it’s surrender, not boasting on our own merit.
@@HarryNicNicholas Hey Harry, Are you a Christian? And no, you don’t have to do a lot of work to get into heaven. That’s kind of the point. You could never do enough good things to become as holy as God. The point of Jesus’ teachings is that God is doing the work, you need to give up on your own god-hood and surrender to God.
I THINK THAT hardcore Arminians and Provisionists are obsessed with Calvinism, and that hardline Calvinists are obsessed with Arminianism and Provisionism. Both negatively obsessed with each other’s soteriology. Instead of edifying one another as we are commanded to do, we constantly mock, judge, belittle, slander, provoke one another to towards what seems like hate. Definitely not motivated by love. Which is sin against God This is obviously clear from these RU-vid channel’s comment sections. Are we not called to grow up in Christ, to mature, to be Christ-like, to be a testimony to an unbelieving world, to grow in holiness? Sanctification is hard work. But it’s so much easier to go on social media and constantly find fault with brothers and sisters in Christ that do not agree on soteriology. And it’s more fun to pick on one another. Kinda reminds me of middle school behavior. My dad is bigger than your dad. My dad can kick your dad’s butt. For Christ’s sake, for his glory and the good of the church, don’t let these RU-vid channels promote, provoke and foster ungodliness in God’s people. God hates disunity. Division and disunity is sin against the God who redeemed us. This is becoming a waste of time. And this obsession has become idolatry for some of us. Be obsessed with Christ. Love the brethren. Be happy in Jesus. And spread that Joy to others, even those you don’t agree with.😊
The argument is question begging as it assumes there is some cause outside of the will of the person choosing. If someone is free to choose, if they are the first cause of their actions and choices, then they choose to accept or reject Jesus because that is what they chose. To insist there must be something outside of their will to cause them to choose assumes they cannot be the first cause of their decision.
I’m unsure of the first few things said about someone who didn’t believe but their life looked right getting pardoned but a believer who isn’t doing enough being cast out… that really does sound like a works based faith. Surely the scandal is that no matter what the unbeliever is doing, they didn’t put their faith in Christ. And no matter how shaky and fruitless the believer’s walk, the Father sees Jesus because they put their faith in Him.
Something being a scandal in your view, respectfully, doesn’t make it true. Works are inherently tied to our final outcome and they should be. That is the only view that makes moral sense. No verse says the father sees Jesus no matter how wicked one is currently because in the past they trusted in Jesus. Jesus didn’t offer a license to sin.
@@jordandthornburgYou’re shifting the goal posts by saying “in the past”. No one is saying that someone who does not believe in Jesus Christ is saved. Of those that come to Him and say “Lord didn’t I do x and y and z in your name?”, Jesus replies with “I NEVER knew you”. Not “I knew you once but then you fell away”. They never had faith in Christ Jesus. They never believed in Him for their salvation. They are counted as “workers of iniquity” because they thought their good works would justify them, not recognizing that they have no righteousness of themselves. Righteousness comes from God alone in Christ alone. Just like the jews seeing to create their own righteousness without realizing the righteousness of God. God is JUST and the JUSTIFIER of those who have faith in Christ Jesus. He’s just because He punished believer’s sin in His wrath dispensed on Jesus Christ on the cross. He is the Justifier because He counts righteousness to those who put their faith in Jesus Christ, His sacrifice and His resurrection.
@@ogloc6308 I am in no way shifting the goal posts. I don’t know for sure what this guy’s views are but free grace believers DO believe one is saved even if they later become atheists, so long as they once believed in Jesus. Matthew 7:23 has nothing to do with osas nor does it say they were wicked only because they were “putting their trust in their own works”. There are multiple explanation for the passage and because Jesus says to this particular group of people that he never knew them doesn’t mean no group of people who are rejected ever knew him once but do no longer. In the parable of the ten virgins, Jesus says “I do not know you” and it seems very much they did know him once based on context. also no verse says Jesus took Gods wrath on himself. Respectfully that’s a misreading of whatever passages you may be thinking of. The Bible ties the genuineness of our faith to some works. It isn’t simply intellectual assent that God is seeking and that was my point. Works do matter in the final analysis. That’s why we are finally judged by them.
@@jordandthornburg ‘scandal=truth’? Respectfully, I said nothing of the sort. Let me explain. Grace is by nature unfair, in that it pardons someone of a wrong, but somewhere someone pays, be it the person who was initially wronged, or the person who pays the penalty. In God’s case with regard to humanity, He is both. This is scandalous by definition as I mentioned, but that is not what makes it true. The whole reason Jesus died was because we can never save ourselves. To imply that a person could ever do anything sufficient of being saved is to suggest the cross was unnecessary. All have fallen short. The only way to be saved is to believe in Christ. This applies the other way around - to say that a person can somehow not do enough to remain saved is to suggest by extension that people who ‘stay’ saved somehow *did* something to achieve it, again implying that we can save ourselves. It is by faith not works.
@@rogue i already addressed your points.Grace is not unfair. God is not doing something inappropriate or wrong by forgiving us. He forgives those who repent. Of course we are saved through the cross of Jesus. We still need to do something to receive that forgiveness and that doesn’t simply go away once we receive the initial salvation. That idea is honestly pretty ridiculous if you just think about it for a few seconds and what it would lead to. The problem with this world is the evil that is continually done and that is what the cross is dealing with. That means faith as mere intelectual assent is not possibility right and it is not the definition of saving faith in the Bible. You DID do something to be saved and forgiven. You repented and believed the gospel. You must continue in that belief to remain in a saved state. This is all over the Bible.
"WHY did you believe in Jesus, & not your neighbor?" In Calvinism, the CAUSE of your faith in Jesus is what saves, instead of your faith in Jesus. They should be asking, "DO you believe in Jesus?" , since "faith is plessing to God" not, "The CAUSE of your faith, is pleasing to God." If you wish to silence them by answering their question, you can refute them Biblically. Let me show you: Calvinist: WHY did you believe when others did not? You: Because I had a WILLINGNESS to do what was right. Calvinist: The makes you better & gives you a reason to BOAST because having a willingness to do what is right is GOOD. You: Not so. Paul writes, "NOTHING GOOD dwells IN ME, that is in my flesh. For I have a WILLINGNESS to do what is right, but NOT the ABILITY to carry it out... Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord!" Having a willingness to do what is right, is part of the "Nothing good" dwelling in Paul., it is God alone who saves you as a "wretched man," through Jesus Christ.
@JourneyNext-ik9vr -- Wrong. The CAUSE of your faith, which is Irresistible Grace, which is what saves you. Faith in Jesus is just a byproduct of Irresistible Grace.
@JourneyNext-ik9vr -- You're not even bothering to follow the logic of your systematic. Those who trust in Christ without Irresistible Grace, you reject because their trust in Christ was a voluntary decision of their own. You even besmirch their faith, as a "work" which is utterly refuted by Paul in Romans 4. "To the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift, but as his due. To the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness." There is a clear distinction between "faith" and "work" here, between "counted as righteousness" vs. "Wages due." "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen". Because Calvinism teaches you have to be "Made Willing" according to the Westminsters Confessions, then your salvation is found in the CAUSE OF YOUR FAITH, which is being "Made Willing" by God, instead of the SOURCE of your faith, which is God outside the fictions Irresistible Grace doctrine. Meaning, anyone who believes in Him by their own volition, will be saved -- which is in complete violation of your Doctrines of Grace. As it is written: "But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed IN CHRIST. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person TURNS to the Lord, the veil is taken away." When is the veil over their hearts taken away? Outside of Christ & BEFORE they turn to the Lord, or AFTER they turn to the Lord IN CHRIST? Calvinism says it's removed over the heart BEFORE they Turn to the Lord OUTSIDE of Christ according to Irresisitble Grace -- that the veil is taken away SO THAT they can THEN turn to the Lord. This verse alone refutes Irresisitble Grace.
@JourneyNext-ik9vr Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are you saved through faith, it does not say by grace without faith. Grace comes through faith, faith does not come through grace. Romans 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed. Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. When the gospel is preached is when faith comes to the person hearing the gospel of their salvation. Romans 10:8 But what saith it? The word is near thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach. Romans 14:23 says whatever is not of faith is sin. All the promises of God come through faith.
@JourneyNext-ik9vr James 1:5-8 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that gives to all men liberally, and upbraids not, and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavers is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think he shall receive any thing of the Lord. A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
I love that question. I also love to ask the following back. Why do you think you're among the elect? How do you know both God's prescriptive will and his secret will for your final destination? (They don't lol) What I find interesting is Calvinists like Vodie Baucum for example, are on record to not just say "I have faith that Christianity is true", but rather to say with preparation... that you trust in the testimony of the eyewitness, the potent historicity of the existence of Christ, and so on. Whenever someone asks you (presumably, a non-Christian) why you believe. BUT don't you dare ACTUALLY say you BELIEVE any of that to a Calvinist. Without some sort of divine gnosis entering you from above. They'll tell a non believer xyz, and then go onto say abc to someone else. Ironically perpetuating the very deceptions they attribute to God, by withholding the truth of the matter-- that is, instead of placebo "means" to "arrive" at their "decision"-- the regeneration as a result of being picked from before the foundation of the world. I.e. the evidence has no bearing on whether or not they believed, thereby producing the deceptions to the unbelievers that there exists such evidence that certainly is convincing to them. The truth of the matter, is the Calvinist really believes they would never believe "evidence" without the divine gnosis. But lying about it is much easier. Now obviously, there are a few Calvinists that will tell xyz to everyone. They don't hide from it, they own it even if in the most absurd ways. And yes.. there are other Calvinists who arent lying necessarily, they just havent scrutinized their own beliefs much.
I often point out how much of a massive liar calvinism turns God into. Isn't it impossible for God to lie (hebrews 6 18)? Didn't he call the church to preach the gospel to the whole world, each and every man (Mark 16:15)? Doesn't he command all ppl everywhere to repentance (acts 17:30)? But if God withheld that possibility for the vast majority,his command and plea for ALL people to repent IS... A... L-I-E! He merely PRETENDS to be offering salvation to unsaved ppl but he created them, secretly, incapable of accepting such offer and to make matters worse, he will punish them in hell forever for not doing what he himself made them uncapable of. The bible says it is impossible for God to lie, and if that doesn't turn God into the biggest scammer, nothing does. Therefore,you can quote Romans 9, Ephesians 1, or any isolated chapter or verse, the Calvinist interpretation of such ends up for the reason I quoted, turning God into a maniac at best and a liar at worse. And Gods intention to bring the Gospel to all ppl, into a fraud. And since this is the goal in wich all of God's actions from Abraham to Jesus culminate to (The gospel and heaven's door being open to ppl)... in order to accept such interpretations and be consistent, you'd have to reject the bible altogether. The whole biblical narrative loses all the mening and message if you take the calvinist interpretation of a couple of verses. So is far more likely that such interpretations are wrong since they make a fraud out of the whole gospel narrative wich is THE MAIN bible theme where all of it culminates to. but no... there's just NO WAY calvinists can be misinterpreting such verses even tough such interpretations make the main bible message lose it's meaning as a whole 🤦♂. Suzanna wesley, John wesley's Mother said: "If all evil actions are divine decrees, including the devil's actions, God would be worse than him", and i wholehartetly agree
I'm a Calvinist, can I answer your questions? Because it seemed to me that they were quite light)) Just kidding, I’m just teasing you. "Why do you think you are among the chosen ones?" The first letter of John gives a very colorful description of the reborn: If anyone hates his brother, he is still in darkness. And so on, Paul also calls to look into yourself, look at your actions, because a true believer bears fruit. Remember the Words of Christ about the tree and fruits. And so on, there are many such verses and topics in the Bible. “How do you know God’s prescriptive will and His secret will regarding your final destination?” It's simple; Scripture, I know about God, and His decisions that He revealed in Scripture and nothing more. If scripture tells me that a believer will enter the kingdom of God, I see faith in myself, I see the character described in the first letter of John and so on, I have confidence because it is written so in His word. I cannot know about His secret will regarding the world or people, He did not reveal this, but I can guess in what direction He decides judging from Scripture. Do I know who the isuran is? No! Why ? Because God did not reveal this, I can judge people based on their actions, and roughly understand what kind of person he is. "The Baucums, for example, do not simply officially declare, 'I believe that Christianity is true,' but rather, they state with preparation... that you trust the testimony of an eyewitness." Um..Would you believe in Christ if there was no evidence of his Existence? Without the existence of the Gospels themselves about him? Without the Bible? The Gospel is the testimony of others about Christ, what they have seen. This is evidence. "BUT don't you dare ACTUALLY say that you BELIEVE any of this to a Calvinist. Without some divine gnosis coming into you from above." I don’t really understand what you want to say "rebirth as a result of being chosen before they were chosen. the foundation of the world." Faith is a gift of God, regeneration is a gift of God, Election is based on the eternal will of God. He chooses whom to have mercy on and whom to leave. Election does not depend on the person who wishes it, but on the Caller. Romans 9 "The truth is that Calvinists truly believe that they will never believe 'evidence' without divine gnosis." God is sovereign, faith is a gift from Him Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29. He gets to choose who will be saved, why doesn’t He have the right to do so? He owes nothing to anyone except justice. Why are you indignant that He has the last word? "There are other Calvinists who aren't necessarily lying, they just haven't examined their beliefs very carefully." I think you haven't explored our hideout well enough
I'm a Calvinist, can I answer your questions? Because it seemed to me that they were quite light)) Just kidding, I’m just teasing you. >>>I'm glad you are interested in trying to answer the questions! "Why do you think you are among the chosen ones?" The first letter of John gives a very colorful description of the reborn: If anyone hates his brother, he is still in darkness. And so on, Paul also calls to look into yourself, look at your actions, because a true believer bears fruit. Remember the Words of Christ about the tree and fruits. And so on, there are many such verses and topics in the Bible. >>>I agree there are many passages in scripture, which offer believers assurance of their salvation. I think you may have missed the contention many non-calvinists have here, I will elaborate more later. For this specific response, I'll raise Matthew 7 regarding the fruit of believers, there is a very specific problem that Calvinism creates of its own and it cannot solve it. “How do you know God’s prescriptive will and His secret will regarding your final destination?” It's simple; Scripture, I know about God, and His decisions that He revealed in Scripture and nothing more. If scripture tells me that a believer will enter the kingdom of God, I see faith in myself, I see the character described in the first letter of John and so on, I have confidence because it is written so in His word. I cannot know about His secret will regarding the world or people, He did not reveal this, but I can guess in what direction He decides judging from Scripture. Do I know who the isuran is? No! Why ? Because God did not reveal this, I can judge people based on their actions, and roughly understand what kind of person he is. >>>Alright, so you affirm God has two wills. I of course do not, but I'm glad that is established in the conversation. This is important. If you believe God has a secret will, and you know that whatever happens is what he has willed to pass-- you have to understand there's a high possibility that you are actually reprobate, and are one of the ones mentioned in Matthew 7 (and other passages about falling away from the faith). It is high chance, because in accordance with Calvinism the "wide" path to destruction we'd both agree refers to the many false paths mankind can take or maybe even just the broader swathe of mankind strays off into them. >>>This is because of evanescent grace. Do you know what that is? It is a Calvinistic concept that describes a type of grace God gives to those who are not saved. These poor people will spend most or all their entire lives proclaiming to be a Christian, and even performing "good works" (i.e. fruit). However, they are mistaken and will awaken in hellfire. Their delusion can be for any number of reasons, but they simply are convinced they are indeed a true Christian. >>>God gives them this deception, and while they continue to live lives under his grace they store up wrath for judgement-- as they do not actually believe they profane the blessings God has bestowed upon them. So when I mention the secret will of God, this in particular is quite the problem. You admitted to not knowing God's secret will, and only that will gives definitive answers for questions. Calvinism creates a situation, where you as a Christian can never know if you are secretly a reprobate fashioned for destruction under the delusion of being a Christian. >>>For you to argue against this, you will have to claim (1) God has given you access to his secret will [akin to a divine gnosis] or (2) repeat that you have seen evidence of your faith, through fruits which-- are not trustworthy for the reasons I just mentioned. You may cite as much scripture as you'd like about what you think constitutes assurance for your salvation, but this does not compute in Calvinism. Here's something Calvin wrote regarding this particular type of "grace." [[[ Experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. Hence, it is not strange, that by the Apostle a taste of heavenly gifts, and by Christ himself a temporary faith is ascribed to them. Not that they truly perceive the power of spiritual grace and the sure light of faith; but the Lord, the better to convict them, and leave them without excuse, instills into their minds such a sense of goodness as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption ... there is a great resemblance and affinity between the elect of God and those who are impressed for a time with a fading faith ... Still it is correctly said, that the reprobate believe God to be propitious to them, inasmuch as they accept the gift of reconciliation, though confusedly and without due discernment; not that they are partakers of the same faith or regeneration with the children of God; but because, under a covering of hypocrisy they seem to have a principle of faith in common with them. Nor do I even deny that God illumines their mind to this extent ... there is nothing inconsistent in this with the fact of his enlightening some with a present sense of grace, which afterwards proves evanescent. (Institutes 3.2.11). Let no one think that those [who] fall away were of the predestined, called according to the purpose and truly sons of the promise. For those who appear to live piously may be called sons of God; but since they will eventually live impiously and die in that impiety, God does not call them sons in His foreknowledge (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of God). ]]] >>>I think you can see the problems with this, without me writing too much further about it. The burden is on the Calvinist because of the flawed Calvinist's doctrines (I by no means am suggesting I am doctrinal perfect of course). You must appeal to something esoteric, it cannot be your good deeds or how you "feel." "The Baucums, for example, do not simply officially declare, 'I believe that Christianity is true,' but rather, they state with preparation... that you trust the testimony of an eyewitness." Um..Would you believe in Christ if there was no evidence of his Existence? Without the existence of the Gospels themselves about him? Without the Bible? The Gospel is the testimony of others about Christ, what they have seen. This is evidence. >>>According to Calvinism, no. There is no chance anyone would believe any evidence presented to them. This is the T in TULIP. Because we are totally depraved, we by default do not discern spiritual things and will reject the truth 100% unless God performs a work (regeneration) in us first. Therefor the evidence is just placebo. >>>On the other hand as a Non-Calvinist, there are a myriad of ways I believe God can draw people to him. The saints of the ancient days did not have the full revelation of scripture (e.g. the hall of faith in Hebrews) or much of the same evidence we have today. Yet God performed many signs, and some believed. Jesus Christ was not known for some thousands of years to some, and though they did not have as much knowledge as we do today they are saved. Propositional knowledge is not a prerequisite for salvation. >>>So yes, depending on how God revealed himself to me I would believe. I say depend, because I have my own imperfections as a human-- and it is possible I would not have even bothered to believe. "BUT don't you dare ACTUALLY say that you BELIEVE any of this to a Calvinist. Without some divine gnosis coming into you from above." I don’t really understand what you want to say >>>Divine Gnosis. Esoteric knowledge. I'm teasing and referring to regeneration before faith, and the entailments it brings with it (one of which is it is very adjacent in ways to Gnosticism). "rebirth as a result of being chosen before they were chosen. the foundation of the world." Faith is a gift of God, regeneration is a gift of God, Election is based on the eternal will of God. He chooses whom to have mercy on and whom to leave. Election does not depend on the person who wishes it, but on the Caller. Romans 9 >>>Yes, we read the same scriptures and disagree with how they are interpreted. This is a given, I will attempt to drive home the point I was making in my original post. "The truth is that Calvinists truly believe that they will never believe 'evidence' without divine gnosis." God is sovereign, faith is a gift from Him Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29. He gets to choose who will be saved, why doesn’t He have the right to do so? He owes nothing to anyone except justice. Why are you indignant that He has the last word? >>>No. We disagree on the definition of sovereignty, faith, and gifts. So your questions here in this paragraph are non-sequitur to me. If you'd like me to elaborate, let me know. "There are other Calvinists who aren't necessarily lying, they just haven't examined their beliefs very carefully." I think you haven't explored our hideout well enough >>>Well, considering I left after only 5 years there's a possibility of that. However, I'm almost certain that is not the case. Because you didn't notice this was going to involve evanescent grace, I suspect it is actually more true of you than I (at least in this aspect)I left after earnestly learning more, and then asking questions which lead me to understand the system is not as biblical as I once thought. I appreciate your willingness to participate and respond, I hope you give my responses some thought. My encouragement to you is to not become attached to any man-made system (be it Calvinism, Provisionism, Molinism, etc.) as your scriptural compass.
My uncle hounded me with this question for years until I used the analogy of a drowning person: "two people are drowning. A life guard jumps in and saves them, at the cost of his own life. But he's not really the hero of the story because the drowning swimmers trusted in him to save them. Therefore they are taking glory away from the life guard." When I phrased it like that, I realized how absolutely stupid the argument is. And he did as well. He's never used that argument against me again and now says it was a "weak argument" to begin with.
Yes, that is a similar analogy I use when responding to this question. It really does show how silly the question is. I’m glad your uncle was reasonable enough to recognize that.
Why is that a response? Where is the rescued person's decision as the root cause of salvation present in the analogy? A system that puts man as the root cause cannot escape a comparison of merit (taking away from total grace.). Most will call this decision action "faith" so they can ignore that the decision was man's own doing, not a gift, a result of works, and something able to be boasted about.
@@Firebert79TA "Where is the rescued person's decision as the root cause of salvation present in the analogy?" This is close to a perfect analogy. Our faith is not the root cause of salvation, Jesus is, just as the life guard in the analogy. He does all the work in the analogy, Jesus did it all the work in reality. You only trust in Him (faith) and He saves you. Faith can´t save you. Try to trust on a tree for salvation, or a rock. It will not help you. Faith saves us only in the sense that God saves those who have faith in His Son. "the decision was man's own doing, not a gift, a result of works, and something able to be boasted about." If you read Paul´s argument you will see that the reason we cannot boast is that it´s from faith and not of works. So if you believe it´s by faith and not by works you cannot boast, according to Paul. If faith comes from us, does that mean we can boast? No, not according to the Bible, because if it´s by faith it´s not of works and so there can be no boasting. According to calvinists we can boast, but I prefer the Bible.
@@GreatLightStudios funny you should mention drowning cos it's one thing for sinners to burn for eternity but to drown them beforehand seems excessive, even for this sadistic mentally ill god of yours, was that necessary? and since when has it been "god;s right" to kill people just for disagreeing with him, with no trial, no representation, for an unspecified crime (what was everyone doing that was sin?) and with one sentence, to burn for eternity? you people are sick if you support that.
After a great famine two starving men walk together through an orchard full of fruit. One man reaches up, grabs a fruit, and fills his stomach. The other looks at him glaringly and says, "Do you think you're better than me?" The Lord provides and the Calvinist question begs.
They already admitted that it's wiser and better to choose Christ than to reject Him. The question has always been why some make the better choice? And if it's not due to the grace of God, then it's because of us, which would give us grounds to boast.
@@Theology_Matters Anyone can boast about anything, a calvinist could boast about being elect while others are not. A non-calvinist could boast that they were wiser. So the question can´t be if people "could" boast about something. Both calvinists and noncalvinists could boast about things in an irrational manner. The reason Paul says we shouldn´t boast is that it´s by faith and not by works. If we had earned salvation we could rightly boast, but since we are given salvation by Grace through faith we cannot boast. Saying it´s a wiser choice to choose salvation is of course true, I don´t think you would deny that, but even if it is wiser you couldn´t (rationally) boast, because even if you were wiser you still didn´t earn salvation by works, but was given salvation by faith.
It seems that the arrogant brag of the calvinist is that they're wiser or better than those who reject CHRIST or even calvinism, simply because they've been predestined to be better and wiser from before creation. And that's literally the case if calvinism were true . Thank GOD calvinism isn't true .
@ServusChristi777 I don't know what that has to do with what I've said but yes there are many many calvinists who claim if one doesn't accept calvinism they're not saved .
And what can a Calvinist boast about? By faith? no from God Ephesians 2:8, Philippians 1:29 thanks to Works? No, even life is predetermined by deeds. A decision to follow Christ? No, this is a gift from God, he made it so that I followed. I will reach the end because MY faith is strong, because I remained strong to the end? No, we will reach the end only because God will make us like this, it’s thanks to Him, not me. What can I use to boast? Everything is from Him. He chose me not because I believed FIRST, I MADE a choice. There was no reason in me to do this, but because of His love, he chose. I can't brag about anything, but you can do it! He chose you because you believed first! You will reach the end thanks to yourself! Otherwise you will fall and lose your salvation! People come to Christ because of YOU, not the Holy Spirit. Your deeds, they are not predetermined. It is you who want to boast before Him, not us, you are the proud ones here, not us.
@@emris3055, assuming Calvinism, you can boast that God was more glorified in saving you than another person. You can boast that you had special preference in eternity past over another person. You can boast God loved you more than another person. God chose me because I believed, yes. Read the wedding parable. Jesus teaches we must meet the requirements for God to choose him. I will reach the end thank to myself? Where have you heard that before? Or are you just saying meaningless stuff? I reach the end thanks to God's mercy. I will not fall, because God is faithful, and I trust in him. I do save people! You got something right! I can save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins (Jas 5:20), I can begat Jesus through the gospel (1 Cor 4:15), I can gain a brother (Matt 18:15), and I can restore someone overtaken (Gal 6:1). But then you made a mistake. You said not the Holy Spirit, as if it's just me. It's called synergy. You should look it up. Scripture loves to talk about it, and it even explicitly states, "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen" (Mark 16:20). The Greek word there is synergeō, and it's used elsewhere in scripture (Mar 16:20, Rom 8:28, 1 Co 16:16, 2 Co 6:1, Jas 2:22). God loves working with people, as well as the Holy Spirit and such. It's not one or the other, it's both. Is this a category you've even considered? Thank you for your meaningless, unscriptural rant. If you would like fruitful conversation, I would like you to 1) respond to the arguments I have made, and 2) make scriptural arguments (don't just rant). I do not expect a response, Mr. Calvinist. And, if perhaps you do respond, I do not expect much scriptural argumentation. Thank you for your time.
Calvinism itself is truly a form of worldliness. It is basically elevation of man's wisdom against God's word. It is love of the world, which in this case is man's wisdom in the form of theology over and above scriptures.
@@ServusChristi777Nope, not really. Most evangelicals, non Calvinist protestants, don't require a systematic. It's inherently ignorant to pretend it's normal for all Christians to have a systematic, when so many simply read the Bible without having to put on goggles For Catholics, the goggles are "what does the official;"church" say?" For Orthodox, it's "what is the thing we've always done?" For Calvinists, it's "what did Augustine and Calvin say?" Once you have a systematic, you fall prey to eisegesis, reading into the text what you /wish/ it said, without caring for the author's intentions and meaning. That's why so many say "context kills Calvinism".
@John3.36 then how do you explain this... which points to "Unconditional electiom:...?.. and I point you to Jude 4.... "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." I would ask you what you think this phrase "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation"... means to you.?... this is telling me that there ARE some who are pre ordained to condemnation... hence... Not accepting Christ...these ones who do Not accept the Lord... were chosen by God...to Not accept the Lord... even before they were born...
@@jeffcarlson3269 Good question. There is a video called "Predestination: It's nothing like you were told" that really helps to question the assumptions that one may have on this. Here is something helpful: In scripture, no lost people are ever predestinated to be converted. Only saved people are predestinated, and the predestination does not start until after conversion. Post-conversion Believers are predestinated to 3 future things according to scripture. 1. To be conformed to the image of Jesus (Rom. 8:29; 1 John 3:2). 2. The redemption of the body, called "adoption" (Eph. 1:5; Rom. 8:23). 3. Inheritance in heaven (Eph. 1:11 [KJV], 1 Pet. 1:1-9). All of these are future things that happen long AFTER conversion.
As someone who believes that God elects some and not others, I watched this video to see what y'all proposed as an answer for the question being addressed as it's a big question for me. It seems like the approach was to nullify the question rather than provide an answer to it (other than the answer of some believe because they self-determined to and others didn't, for various reasons), which isn't necessarily a bad approach! However, there were several things that I think either seriously misrepresented Calvinism (which I'm not a complete Calvinist, just for the record, so maybe I'm a one-off from the main line of thinking about these things) and/or the Bible, so it ultimately helped solidify my belief as it currently stands. I'm listing some of them below in the hopes that it is helpful to those who read it, or if there is a reply, to myself. I'll try to be brief - I'm not a fan of long RU-vid comments. 😅 -- "To have their faculties restored when everybody else's was created unable...that is a ground to boast because I am now ontologically superior than the unregenerate. 'God chose me rather than you.'...therein is a ground for boasting." This seemed to be the main point communicated through the video. However, it's not true and it really twists the Calvinist's understanding and biblical explanation for why God chooses some and not others to be His people. No good Christian will boast in the fact that God chose them. Scripture gives no reason whatsoever for boasting in our own ability, but instead opposes it as I'm sure you'd agree (Dueteronomy 9:5). That was Israel's whole problem! They were so proud God chose THEM rather than the other nations. Instead, God chose to save me (or to use these verses specifically in their context, God chose Israel) because He chose to. It wasn't because of anything good or special about Israel (Romans 9:10-12, 16). Instead, our proper response should be one of humility and gratitude at the recognition of God's unconditional grace! -- "Because they're not identical, and they're not all having the same experiences." That is a partial explanation I agree with. When I ask myself or anyone else the question addressed in the video, I'm wanting to dive deeper than the surface level stuff - hence why the question relating to the twins assumes they have the same experience. That's kind of the point, is to eliminate surface level things that aren't foundational in order to get to the root of the issue. "Because I heard and they didn't." "Because I'm more open-minded." "Because the other listened to too many atheists on RU-vid." Those don't get to the heart of the disagreement. They're true, but they don't fully explain what's going on. Calvinism says, fundamentally at the foundation, "Because God chose me", but I'm not aware of a credible Arminian answer to the question that goes below the surface. -- "God made me more wise than you were. He gave me an ability that you never had...In what world is that less grounds for boasting than the non-calvinist?" See the first quote I addressed. Romans 11:22 also addresses pride in relation to God choosing (context again is Israel and Gentiles, but the principle of God's choice and the lack of warrant for pride still certainly applies). God gives the believer an ability the unbeliever never has. First, regeneration makes us free from the enslaving bondage of sin, and second, sanctification makes us more like Jesus Christ - it's a process of growing. When we're set free, we're free indeed (John 8:34, 36, Romans 6:6, 2 Peter 2:19). It's okay for some to have a God-given ability that others don't and yet remain humble. "For who sees anything different in you? What do you have that you did not receive? If then you received it, why do you boast as if you did not receive it?" (1 Corinthians 4:7) So much for brief...*sigh* 😅 I hope it makes sense and is helpful for y'all as well as anyone who happens to take the time to read it.
You are not a better human being that's why God saved you, We are all sinners, we all can have faith if we chose to, despite all the influences to our free will, we still can, by God's grace. Faith is nothing, it didn't even move a rock for God. However we must accept that God chooses to show mercy on whom He will have mercy. And He shows mercy to those who have faith in the Son. John 3:16. He shows mercy to whosever will believe
At the root of this discussion is the phrase "it is the gift of God; not a result of works, so that no one may boast." I would ask us all to consider the reasoning of Paul before using our own reasoning. Paul says in Rom 4:4-5 "Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" That is why Paul claims we may not boast, because we didn´t work and earn, but believe and receive. I believe that I myself chose Jesus. I believe in the Son, and God who justifies the ungodly gave me righteousness as a gift. According to Paul, I cannot boast, because I didn´t work. According to calvinists, I can, because the faith came from me. It seems to me calvinists in this case is using a biblical phrase to support an unbiblical idea.
and I would point you guys to Jude 4.... "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." I would ask you what you think this phrase "who were before of old ordained to this condemnation"... means to you.... that is telling me that there ARE some who are pre ordained to condemnation... hence... Not accepting Christ... which were chosen by God... even before they were born...
26 But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. (John 10:26-28, NASB)
Now post the rest of the chapter instead of cherry picking. Do you think that Jesus was sharing Calvinism to a large group of non-believers? If so, why wouldn't He just say what you think he's saying? "You reprobates won't choose God because God hasn't chosen you" 😂😂😂 This "proof text" doesn't stand up to any scrutiny, as shown in the recent flowers White debate.
@@SeanWinters I’m not for Calvinism. I’m not sure if you are for Calvinism, but I don’t think Jesus was either. You have to quote all of the Bible as well. The rest of that chapter is about the Jews falling away and how the gentiles have been grafted in.
Yeah, John 10:26 states that they believe not because they are not His sheep. The reason they do not believe Jesus, is because they do not follow God (not His sheep). Had they been a follower of God (His sheep), then they would believe that Jesus is who He says He is. And if we keep reading to John 10:38 we see Jesus *inviting* these men to *become* one of His sheep. John 10:38 KJVS But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
@@losnfjslefn8857 rhett and link believed and followed Jesus at a point in time. They were genuine at first and now they regret the decision that they made. Just because someone does not believe doesn’t mean they never did. You have to look at the totality of Scripture.
Matthew 7:26 “Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. Matthew 25:2 “Five of them were foolish, and five were prudent. I think of these passages when I hear those questions. You can be wise and choose what is right.
Faith is simply the conviction that something is true. Its persuasion. Saving faith is simply being persuaded that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
God says that there's no boasting when " a man is justified by faith" Rom. 3:27-28. As when "Abraham believed God" 4:2-3. Because by faith is according to God's grace 4:16. Now: if someone denies these Scritures, he's boasting against God, saying that he is right and wiser than God who is wrong,
Being chosen from the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1) is not something to boast in because the reason God chose is not known to us. The accusation of ontological superiority is unfounded. The only known reason seems to be to demonstrate His grace on who he pleases. But yes, the result is superior and preferable. That's not something to be ashamed of. I will boast in what God has done.
If you want to know why your neighbor doesn't accept God, get your head out of the book and ask the unbeliever. The reason my neighbor chose God, but i didn't is quite simple. He accepts the stories in a book ss true, but I don't. I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question.
Isn't it impossible for God to lie (hebrews 6 18)? Didn't he call the church to preach the gospel to the whole world, each and every man (Mark 16:15)? Doesn't he command all ppl everywhere to repentance (acts 17:30)? But if God withheld that possibility for the vast majority,his command and plea for ALL people to repent IS... A... L-I-E! He merely PRETENDS to be offering salvation to unsaved ppl but he created them, secretly, incapable of accepting such offer and to make matters worse, he will punish them in hell forever for not doing what he himself made them uncapable of. The bible says it is impossible for God to lie, and if that doesn't turn God into the biggest scammer, nothing does. Therefore, you can quote Romans 9, Ephesians 1, or any isolated chapter or verse, the Calvinist interpretation of such ends up for the reason I quoted, turning God into a maniac at best and a liar at worse. And Gods intention to bring the Gospel to all ppl, (THE VERY MAIN BIBLE THEME BTW) into a fraud. And since this is the goal in wich all of God's actions from Abraham to Jesus culminate to (The gospel and heaven's door being open to ppl)... in order to accept such interpretations and be consistent, you'd have to reject the bible altogether. The whole biblical narrative loses all the meaning and message if you take the calvinist interpretation of a couple of verses. So is far more likely that such interpretations are wrong since they make a fraud out of the whole gospel narrative wich is THE MAIN bible theme where all of it culminates to. but no... there's just NO WAY calvinists can be misinterpreting such verses even tough such interpretations make the main bible message lose it's meaning as a whole 🤦♂. Suzanna wesley, John wesley's Mother said: "If all evil actions are divine decrees, including the devil's actions, God would be worse than him", and i wholehartetly agree
The thing Calvinists miss with this question is the inherent wisdom we are all endowed with. I would ask the Calvinists: Have you ever made a wrong choice? Do reprobates only make bad choices? If they can make good choices and even repent of the bad choices they make, why cant they repent of their sins as bad choices and choose Christ?
@aletheia8054 aletheia8054 hey I am a strong calvinist and believe all 5 points of tulip however that is not a scripture I would use to defend the doctrine of predestination or total depravity. The reason is, I used to use this verse to argue total depravity but after taking a course on Job I discovered something Eliphaz is visited by the night spirit and this spirit is not a good one we believe based on the Hebrew being in femine gender and the lying spirit sent by God is also in the femine gender if I remember correctly it is the only time the word spirit is used in the feminie those 2 times. Also he takes the doctrine of total depravity a step two far and misapplies it like a lot of his foolish rebukes toward Job He doesn't say that we are sinful and unable to do good but says that we are vile and disgusting before God The way that we can know that this is not an accurate is by God's declaration that Job is pure And Eliphaz says the heavens are not pure in his sight and no where is the Bible is that taught heaven is a place marked with perfection and righteousness Eliphaz God puts no trust in his angels or holy ones and that is simply not true either I believe in total depravity as much as the next guy I would caution using this as an accurate description because eliphaz was rebuked for this language
@@aletheia8054 I think ur missing rhe point ur correct the word spirit isn't there but what I am saying is that the wisdom he is speaking is drawn from the A. Elders and what has been passed down. And B. Mainly the Night Spirit as referenced in chapter 4 and the spirit is not giving him good counsel for the many reasons Listed throughout Job.
Because Paul was dealing with a pride issue. Paul was one of those "chosen few", if you will, who literally required a miracle in order to believe Christ. Without Damascus, he would have died persecuting the Church. Meanwhile, what miracle did Stephen require?
The entire video completely misses the Calvinist argument. The most salient version of this argument is that what is the origin of that holy impulse? How is it that one comes to this non-meritorious holy decision? However, Captain non-sequitur Mcgrew equivocated around 11 minutes in starting to address the origin of the decision with what God does ex post facto.. That a non-Calvinist does not boast does absolutely nothing to allay the fact that you do have grounds to boast that you chose more wisely then others. If the ground of your decision is not the sovereignty of God then the decision, part of salvation (ordo salutis), is of you wholly. God has done what he can do, but faith is up to you in the final analysis.
Jesus told us why some don't believe. John 6, 64-65: But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” Surprised these verses didn't come up in a video asking why some people believe and others don't. I mean, Jesus literally says, "this is why."
John 6:65 KJVS And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, *except it were given unto him of my Father* . 🔼 You seem to be reading this verse as if the reason they don't come to Jesus is because something is being *withheld* from them. What did Jesus say earlier in the same chapter? In John 6:32, Jesus says *to these SAME people* God has *GIVEN* them the true bread from heaven. So perhaps the problem isn't that something is not being *given to* some people, perhaps the problem is that the something being given is not being *received/accepted by* some people? Which would line up perfectly with John 1:11. John 1:11 KJVS He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
@@losnfjslefn8857 Keep reading- 34-37: "They said to him, 'Sir, give us this bread always.' Jesus said to them, 'I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. *But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe.* All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." Same chapter, same sentiment. Note that "all" who are given by the Father come and are raised. As Jesus clarified later, the reason *why* some don't believe is because they weren't given by the Father/it wasn't granted to them. Look again at verse 65. What is "it" that is granted by the Father? It should also be noted that I did nothing but quote the scripture and said Jesus tells us why some don't believe, indicated by His quote, "This is *why* I told you..." Your assertion that I "seem to be reading" the verse a certain way comes from simply quoting the verse. I'm not saying anything was withheld, the verses are saying it. There's no spin, commentary, etc. Just a quote. After the people hear this "hard" saying, they leave. Jesus asks the 12 if they will leave also. Peter says they won't, and Jesus responds, "Did I not *choose* you, the 12?" So those who remained were those chosen by God. This lines up with Jesus telling Peter, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven." There's no reason to speculate on what is "perhaps" happening here. These people witnessed Jesus perform the miracle of the fish and loaves. After seeing that miracle and eating their fill from it, they still didn't believe. Why? Jesus said, "no one can come to Me *unless it is granted* by the Father."
Ask the Calvinist "Why did God love you and create your neighbor to burn in hell w/o any possibility to repent? Did God make special and better than your neighbor?"
You are not going at this from the right direction; its you who should be asking the Calvinists “Why Did You Choose God and Your Neighbor Didn't?”, then, they’ll either lie or tell the truth, after they answer, at that point you’ve got them where you want them.
@@josuediaz198 --- When Calvinists are confronted with the contradictions, incoherence and inconsistency of their theological beliefs by their critics they are trained to employ a long list of intellectually dishonest debate tactics [30 to 50 classic ones], chief among these are playing endless ring-around-the-rosie word games, and answering questions with questions, that way they never have to answer questions and you are always on the defensive, once they trap you into playing their games you might as well be watching TV. The second thing you have to know is what all the contradictions, incoherence and inconsistencies are and *NEVER* leave those topics, never let them drag you out into the swamp so they can drowned you; because that is where they will take you every time. Their game is attack, attack, attack and you have to play their game better than they play their game.
@JohnQPublic11 -- Same. Calvinists: Jesus died for sinners. Translation: Jesus died for a FEW of us sinners. Calvinists #2: Jesus died for ALL. Translation: Jesus died for the non-elect IN SOME SENSE, but died for us in a SALVIFIC SENSE. Calvinists: God loves ALL people. Translation: God loves ALL people generally, but only loves SALVIFICALLY a FEW of us. On and on it goes.
@@Firebert79TA Not sure what that means? Are you saying that like your god, that you derive great satisfaction from seeing all the unsaved go to hell? Sad state of affairs.
@@Firebert79TAsure, the predestination that all who choose to believe have been predestined to be gifted by God and receive eternal life, not "all who God predetermined will be saved will be". So you're right, Ephesians applies, just as the text actually says, not as you think it does.
@@SeanWinters so in your view the primary difference between the saved and unsaved is the gifts or means that God places in one's life to come to faith? The right enabling initial conditions?
Then your church is incorrect on this issue. It's okay, it's not the end of the world, many churches are wrong about this. If they're extreme and this soteriology seems through all aspects of their faith, then yeah maybe find a new church, but remember, it's okay to worship with people you disagree with a little bit.
Then your church is incorrect on this issue. It's okay, it's not the end of the world, many churches are wrong about this. If they're extreme and this soteriology seems through all aspects of their faith, then yeah maybe find a new church, but remember, it's okay to worship with people you disagree with a little bit.
@@SeanWinters Friend, you just called the Bible extremist. Doesn't the Bible clearly teach that man is completely blinded to the truth? 1 Corinthians 2:14 Man in his natural state cannot even understand, much less accept, the Gospel. Man is a slave to sin. That is, you are not the Master, your slave is the Master, will this Master allow you to get out from under his dominance? Paul also writes that no one seeks God Romans 3:10 Why? Of all people, NOBODY seeks God! Why not because we are dead in our sins? Slaves? Dead people like in a cemetery?
@scottforesman7968 this based I expect on John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. and they are correct... man Cannot make a decision for Christ... unless God first chooses them... this is called "Unconditional election".. the 2nd point of Calvinism.. which the Anti Calvinists do not agree with... they also do Not agree with point 1 .. the Total Depravity of Man... which states man cannot choose God on their own... again John 6:44.... the first hurdle the anti Calvinists have to get over.. is the belief that Romans 3:23.... shows man in a depraved state too far gone to even want to hear about God...anti Calvinists don't get it... they do Not really realize what.. Romans 3:23 reads ... "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" they believe in this sinful state. .but they also believe Man will poke their head out one day and say. ."oh I guess I had better believe in Jesus today"... Man WON'T... Man CAN'T...
"any wisdom i have, i was given from the Lord, right?". So God just didn't give the next guy enough wisdom? This is just a backdoor form of election. The question remains, where does the difference come from? Being better equipped? Or making better use? The former makes it an issue of "unfair" initial conditions and the second makes it about meritorious good use.
They would say God’s election is based on his own purpose, and his purpose has nothing to do with individual people, therefore he’s not showing favor to any individual men with respect to who those men are. I mean, it’s all nuts, but these guys aren’t known for thinking things all the way through.
I’ve been asking determinists for years how their beliefs can be true when God shows no partiality or favoritism and have never got an answer. They just say He’s not. So then you say there must be a condition for it not to be partiality and that’s usually where the conversation ends.
@@JohnK557 I think a more well trained Calvinist would say there’s definitely a reason, but it’s wholly within God, he doesn’t pick anything about one man in favor of another.
@@Firebert79TA Oh no, this is badly false. The verse is not about the law it is about salvation. And God certainly gives unmerited favor, but to all people, not some. He has forgiven all people, not some. See Rom 5:18
Perhaps the answer to this question is simply that your neighbor rejected the gospel for one of these 3 reasons 1. When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. (Matthew 13:19). 2. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. (Matthew 13:20-21). 3. Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. (Matthew 13:22).
This issue comes from one thing. It is extremely difficult, if not impossible, to reconcile man’s free will with God’s omniscience. Both Calvinism and Arminianism (words I despise) give insufficient explanations.
I’ve worked on that one quite a bit. Our definition of omniscience is wrong. It should be, God knows everything he wishes to know, past present and future. This definition has the most powerful God, is more consistent with his other characteristics, and lines up best with the whole Bible. It also explains how he can be omniscient and yet man still have free will.
@@ServusChristi777 Yes. He definitely does. Just as he purposefully limits his own power and presence. He’s not on Earth in the same glory he is in Heaven, by his choice, and he doesn’t do all things he could do, by his choice. This is definitely correct.
Early equivocation with the word "believe" in this video. The attempt is to undermine the premise of the question by pointing out that even demons believe, (which is true). The question is clearly referring to a salviific believing as mentioned in Romans 10:9 or Mark 16:16.
Literally everyone in English understands "believe" to mean "choose and accept Christ as your Savior", to be saved. Pedantics don't make a good argument.
I'm not following... So what if God made one group of humans superior in some way/shape/form. That's His business, not ours. Our duty is to love and obey Him. If our differences are grounds for boasting, then we can choose to boast in our IQ, skin color, ethnicity, height, strength, charm, skills, character, etc. Or we could choose to not boast. Our choice. But either way we choose, that doesn't invalidate the fact that God made us one way and not the other. How He makes us is His choice. And one thung is true - He most assuredly does NOT make us all the same.
@@TheRomans9Guy Serious question for you: is a person with a high IQ superior to someone with a low IQ? (It's a y/n question) Bear in mind that the person with the higher IQ will consistently be making better/wiser decision on a whole matter of issues. * If the wiser person IS superior, then the guys in the video are wrong: some people are indeed wiser/better than others, and they have God to thank for their superiority, for nobody can choose or change their IQ. It's assigned to them by God, so all praise goes to Him. * If the wiser person IS NOT superior, then guess what - the guys in the video are still wrong: being wiser doesn't make you superior, ergo, there's nothing to boast about. No matter how you slice it, the guys in the video are wrong: wisdom is not an occasion for boasting.
So it seems like the non-Calvinist actually agrees that they believe they are wiser (apart from the grace of God) than those who reject Him. This is what Calvinists have been saying all along.
The Calvinists have to varying degree argued against the wisdom of accepting Christ and smearing their theological rivals as prideful, all while they hold God made them ontologically superior to the unregenerate. It's a silly argument.
@@IdolKiller Both sides agree that it's wise to accept Jesus, but rather that wisdom is due to God's grace or not is where the disagreement is. The non Calvinist belief is that we can be wise enough to accept Jesus apart from grace, which then creates grounds for boasting. But if your wisdom is due to God's grace, you have no grounds to boast, since it didn't come from within yourself.
@@Theology_Matters the non-Calvinist view is that God graciously created us in His image and likeness and graciously gave us faculties capable of reason and responding to truth. So your claim that the nonCal rejects God's grace here is a strawman. The issue is the Calvinist asserts that God withholds grace when He forms us and only graces the elect with effectual prefaith regeneration whom He's eternally loved, passing over the unelect whom He's eternally hated. The former is Biblical, the latter is (to put it bluntly) anti-Christ, anti-Gospel and anti-Biblical.
@@IdolKiller Sure, even having the ability to be wise is gracious. But actually being wise and accepting Jesus is up to you, not God. Just because someone gives you a free tool box doesn't mean you'll use the tools. That's up to you, not the person who gave you the free tool box. If this is the case when it comes to salvation, then you have grounds to boast.
It’s a good decision to choose Christ to those who have been regenerated , but it’s foolishness to those who have not been regenerated. Why do you people not understand this ? Unless you’re born again you’re not ever going to choose Christ. Regeneration comes as the gift of God , then people freely choose Christ.
No offense, but these guys are talking around a legitimate question based on their theology of free will. If it is based solely on their will to repent and believe, wouldn't it naturally mean one sinner is wiser than the other? And by default give them a reason to boast?
@@2timothy23 this is that personal question between the Holy God and the unholy man. How do I make the wisest decision I will ever make that puts me in right standing with God forever? God must intervene. Cry out to him. He is your only hope to ever make the wisest decision you’ll ever make.
I've never heard a Calvinist who brags about his faith or claims that they were wiser than others and consequently more able than other "foolish" ones to see the truth of the gospel and believe. Everything your attributing to Calvinists is the exact opposite of what they actually do boast in, which is that they boast in the Lord alone who saves them.
CalvinISM holds that the unregenerate must be changed and made better in order to rightly understand spiritual truths. Yes, to be made spiritually alive is better than being made spiritually dead.
@@IdolKiller You're losing me on this "made better to rightly understand spiritual truths" part. I've never heard this expressed by Calvinists. Honestly, it doesn't register at all in the 20+ years that I've been around and associated with Calvinists. Also, we're not made spiritually dead; that is the starting point of everyone as unregenerate sinners before we are made alive by His Spirit.
Synergy does exactly this. The saved person was either better equipped or made better use for the root cause man-based decision to happen. The monergist (Calvinist) is left to brag only in that they know God moved in their heart first.
What would you say to someone who is unsure if God has moved in them because they see things are missing from their life. But they want God to move in them?
@@--i-am-root Great question! It’s very simple: avail yourself of means of grace , ie, attend a Bible believing church (preferable a conservative Presbyterian church like the Presbyterian Church in America [PCA not PCUSA]), fellowship with fellow believers, sit under good expository preaching, read the Bible on a daily basis using a good Bible reading plan, pray on a daily basis, join the church and be baptized if you aren’t already. And as a church member, you’ll partake in communion. I’d also highly recommend treating Sundays as a special day reserved for the Lord - try to minimize shopping, sporting events, etc and just focus on church, the study of the Word, etc.
@@Firebert79TAOk but who's a synergist? This is a Strawman of both the Arminian and provisionist positions. Placing Faith in Christ is not "work", therefore 0.0...% of the work is done by man. Absolutely no work is involved in accepting Christ, as Paul says in Romans 3 and 4, faith and works are opposites. Placing Faith in Jesus is much like accepting a gift, just as Ephesians 2:8 says. Someone who accepts a gift did NONE of the work to merit or earn his gift, so obviously he can't boast. However, can someone boast that God unconditionally elected them for salvation?? Yyyyyup. And Calvinists do so, quite often. This is literally where the "holier than thou" stereotype of Christians came from, from Calvinists acting high and mighty due to their "election".
6:17 The fundamental issue that qualifies privisionism as modern semi pelagianism is that a sinner is not so dead, he is response able positively to the call of the gospel, inately possessing this ability from birth. Sometimes to avoid semi pelagian charge, Flowers would say merely the preaching of the gospel is grace in itself to trigger a response because man is response able. They may add the conviction of the Spirit into the saving formula, then the rest is up to the sinner who is response able to believe or not. This equates provisionism into semi pelagianism in substance. Why? Because the there is no need for the Spirit to do an internal work in the heart of a dead sinner. He is not fully dead and only needs an encouragement in the right direction. They may concede that the HS is giving some revelation but the dead sinner is not totally blind and dead to understand it and respond. So he can produce his own faith. Folks these are the very grounds why semi pelagianism was condemned in church history as heretics...This is a form of synergism where a dead sinner contributes faith to fulfill a condition by the flesh alone. Philosophically, it is compatible with self determining libertarian freewill philosophy. The reformed view is man is totally dead in sin and unable in the things of God therefore a sovereign internal work of the Spirit alone must happen first in the heart of man, then the dead sinners eyes and ears are opened, made alive Eph 2:1, that he fully understands the gospel as revealed by the Spirit 1 Cor 2:10, 14, 2 Cor 4:3-7. Then he believes based on Phil 1:29, 2 Peter 1:1, Acts 3:16 not as the work of the flesh alone. Yes he believes responsibly because he was gifted faith. Arminians will agree w total depravity but that necesitates prevenient grace must be at work first in the heart of a dead sinner prior to responding either to reject or believe. They only reject the irresistibility of the call. Technically, everytime the provisionist claims man is response able on his own without internal work of the Spirit, they aligning themselves with semi pelagians. They deny it but in substance, it is a modern day version of semi Pelagianism. Keep the definitions biblically acurate and they cannot escape the charge.
Who cares about any of the isms you mentioned. You say “they can’t escape the charge.” You believe that God willed and predetermined EVERYTHING in eternity past for His own glory so how could anyone “escape a charge?” Every time you “charge” a person who is acting out Gods will you defeat your own position.
@@JohnK557 hehe same guy at brians faith on fire. Do your homework and you'll find there are only 4 views on salvation. Nothing has changed the past 500 years. Every educated scholar knows this. Your arguments are utter non sense you made up. I prefer textual exegesis debates.
@@josephalvinalmedatv8That’s funny. “Nothing has changed the past 500 years?” What happened to God willing and predetermining EVERYTHING in ETERNITY PAST for His own glory?According to the foundation of your false beliefs NOTHING has changed since ETERNITY PAST. “Hehe,” sometimes I feel bad about refuting self refuting nonsense. It’s just too easy…..
“Technically every time the provisionist claims man is response able without internal work of the Spirit”…..why do you automatically assume there is a state of man where God has “left us to ourselves” entirely in our attempts to believe? From where does this idea come from? If anything the Bible is clear as to the exact opposite, God is consistently seeking after man and so there is no reality where man responds in a vacuum without the grace of God being present in his spiritual seeking. Provisionists don’t claim to have superhuman power to seek God in the midst of absolute darkness, they claim the light has entered the world and they can respond to that light that God has ALREADY made available to everyone. The truth is very simple and makes completely sense once you get rid of that faulty assumption.
@@TheChristianPicker The fundamental difference between provisionism and calvinism is what is the extent of work that God must do first to enable man to respond. In provisionism man is response able and need only the grace of God in sending them the gospel to hear, some say the conviction of the HS is needed and maybe some will add the illumination of the Spirit, then the sinner is able to respond in his inborn natural state....In calvinism or reformed theology a mere pat in the back, an encouragement from the HS to make the right decision is never enough. Arminians and calvinists affirm total depravity in its fullest sense. The sinner is still dead. Eph 2:1,5 and Col 2:13 states that He made us alive when we were DEAD IN SIN not when we were response able to believe in our fallen natural state. Dead means dead or why would God make us alive if we are response able? So that we can come to faith Life must come first. We do not believe that we are response able that would be semi pelagianism superpower ability. That is why Arminians believe in Prevenient grace and Calvinist believe in Sovereign grace prior to salvation based on Eph 2:1,5 and Col 2:13. Some type of grace must internally alter the depraved nature of man first before he can believe....
What do you think is the gift of God in Ephesians 2:8? If you cannot read Greek you would probably say "faith", but faith is a masculine gender word, grace is a feminine gendered word, "it" or "that" is a neuter word, meaning the gift CANNOT BE grace nor faith, but instead the gift is SALVATION. So, your "standard" you're pushing is a total nonsequitur. Also, Romans 3 and 4 Paul makes a clear deliniation between faith and works, therefore Faith CANNOT POSSIBLY BE A WORK. Therefore, having the ability to choose is not "reason to boast". This is all basic, but I understand if you've been indoctrinated into the Calvin cult how you might not have understood this before. But yes, the "standard" is that no man can boast, because PLACING YOUR FAITH IN JESUS IS INHERENTLY NOT BOASTWORTHY. Literally who is out there saying "look how great I am, I admitted I'm a sinner who cannot save himself, I need Jesus' redemption and accept Him as overlord of my life... Aren't I awesome!"??? No one does that, because it's inherently illogical!!! On the other hand, do Calvinists boast that they're elect while others aren't? Oh, you betcha they do. One of the major reasons new england, Scotland, England, Germany and Scandinavia are turning ATHEIST, because Calvinism gives reason for boast to those who call themselves elect.
@@SeanWinters i appreciate your breakdown of the Greek, but it does nothing to address the issue. Salvation is a gift in which none of the ultimate root cause is my own doing. Christians absolutely do boast in what they view as their superior decision making/spiritual sensitivity/wisdom. You'll see many look down at unbelievers with an attitude of "I did it, why can't you?"
Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God," From what I've been taught, the "THIS" in Greek refers to the original subject, "GRACE", not to the secondary term "FAITH." Grace is the gift, not faith here in this particular verse. In English we would have the "This" refer to the closest noun, which would be 'faith', but Greek apparently doesn't work that way. 'Faith' here in Greek is in feminine form, but the 'this' is neuter. If Paul had meant it to go with the word 'faith,' he'd have had to make it a feminine form as well. No, in fact scripture contrasts Faith and Works numerous times (see James). Faith is not a work, nor is it the gift mentioned in Eph 2. Perhaps there is another verse where Faith IS called a gift from God. I do not know of it, but perhaps there is. We're told we need to have faith, but why tell us that if God planting it inside of us is the only way to have it? Same with humility. Why would God say over and over that we need to humble ourselves, if only He can put it inside of us. Anyway, that's another topic I suppose. God bless!
You are interpreting Ephesians 2:8-9 incorrectly!!!! Salvation IS THE GIFT BEING ADDRESSED HERE! Is English your second language? AND… ALL men have been given THE MEASURE OF FAITH Romans 12:3
No, the Calvinist is saying you cannot boast (eph 2) but if you say you'rre better than your neighbor who doesn't then have grounds for boasting - for you are better. Trying to say it's an inappropriate question (the talents) makes this guy look weak. The Calvinist says they chose beccause God caused them too walk in his ways whereas the non-calvinist says it was me. This video doesn't really get to the issue.
Choosing God doesn't give you a reason to boast. Why are Calvinists so obsessed with being "better" than everyone else? You're actively looking for reasons to boast, as opposed to the rest of Christendom who understands that 1. Faith isn't a work, it doesn't merit anything, thus the charge of "synergism" is a strawman 2. A major part of choosing God is accepting how low you actually are, thus once again, being antithetical to boasting. No man can brag about grabbing a lifeboat someone else built and sent to rescue him. Why someone would even desire to... It strikes me as narcissistic and holier than thou, something that is well documented to be a common Calvinist sin, not a provisionist sin. 3. If God did choose you, then of course you have a reason to boast! God made you special, apart from everyone else, like a favorite child, or a favorite toy. It is no wonder why Calvinists, despite their objections with calling their election "unconditional", believe they are "better" than everyone else. It's as if you're projecting, that if you believed in free will, you'd happily brag about how much better you were(even though choosing Christ earns you nothing). Why even have this mindset? Also I. Ephesians 2:8 the "gift" is salvation, not faith. Check the Greek, the genders don't match, the gift literally cannot mean "faith", nor grace, the gift is SALVATION. And amen to that!
It is important to notice this is not an answer to the question. At least at 1st, then they sort of inadvertently answer it. The response is essentially, Calvinists shouldn't ask the question. But "where does my faith come from?" is a meaningful question the Bible addresses (ex, 1 Cor 1). These guys seem to think it's our innate wisdom, adding that's not meritorious. Fine, let's grant that. It's still the wrong answer (again, 1 Cor 1). An aside. I don't appreciate the tone of this. It's wild to me how often I see Calvinists treated with more scorn by Christians than any other religious belief system.
I don´t think there´s a single point of calvinism that is biblical. T - Total depravity claims we can´t believe or accept God without a regeneration. But the Bible says we are saved and given life (regenerated) through faith, so an unregenerate person must be able to believe in order to become regenerated. We are depraved, but not in this way. U - Unconditional election: The Bible clearly says we are saved or chosen because of faith. If you believe in Jesus you will be saved, if you call on the name of the Lord you will be saved. It´s very clearly conditional. L - Limited Atonement: Jesus atoned not for our sins only, but the sins of the whole world. Limited atonement goes against explicit texts. Why would you believe this? I - Irresistable Grace: Does the Bible ever say the work of the Holy Spirit cannot be resisted? No. But it says to some; "you always resist the Holy Spirit" and of others "they rejected the plan of God for themselves." P - Perseverance of the Saints: Paul in Galatians say to people who had received the Spirit that if they accepted circumcision, Christ would be of no benefit to them. So he certainly did not believe a believer cannot fall away or be "severed from Christ". He also spoke to believers in Rome and said "to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; for otherwise you too will be cut off." Calvinism is wrong on every count. It is very unbiblical. I agree on ECT though. also unbiblical
You believe that God willed and predetermined ALL evil, sin, and deception for His own glory. So whoever isn’t a child of God is not because God first willed and predetermined them not to be for His glory. “Doh!”
How do they get to be children of God? John 1:12 KJVS But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 🔼 Those that received (received is used in the active tense here) Christ are the ones that were given the power to become sons of God. So that's how you become a child of God, by believing on Christ.
@@aletheia8054 You seem to have the order wrong? The power to become sons of God was given to those that received Christ. It doesn't say they received Christ *because* they were sons of God.
Most of this video is completely unhelpful. The first 4 minutes was a complete non sequitur. Warren's response had nothing to do with the question Jordan asked. From minute 4:00 to about 6:30 he admits that "he acts more wisely" that the non-believer and pretends that the Calvinist objects that "we can't do anything wise". Again, this shows a profound misunderstanding... or probably a misrepresentation... of the Calvinist position. We object to the claim that you did this wise thing INDEPENDENTLY. That is boasting. That God gave everyone the same "opportunity" and you chose wisely but they chose foolishly and that the DIFFERENCE was in you. Meanwhile, the Calvinist admits that it is far wiser to believe but that this wisdom is a gift of God. If we do what is wise and good, if we believe the truth, it shows THE WSIDOM and GOODNESS OF GOD not our own independent wisdom and goodness. He gets the glory. Jordan argues at about 6:30 that doing what is wise isn't meritorious. It does not merit salvation. Agreed. But it does merit commendation. God says to His wise servants, well done good and faithful servants. Faith is commended all throughout scripture. It pleases God. Thus, you guys are claiming that EVERYONE could do it... God has provided the same chance to everyone, graciously... but that you did it OF YOURSELVES over and above whatever "general" or "common" grace that God gave to everyone. So you are boasting that you are better than other people. God leveled the playing field. You showed, by your independent choices, that you did it better than others. Meanwhile, the Calvinist affirms that he acted wisely, did what was good, but that God gets the glory. It was God at work in him... and so he has no grounds to boast. As Paul says: 1 Cor 15:10 - But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. At about minute 11:17, Warren claims that Calvinists are actually boasting that we are special because God has chosen us to be "ontologically superior". First, it is just an undeniable fact that the great Christian hope is that we will all be made perfect by God one day... incorruptible. See 1 Corinthians 15:42-49. God will glorify His people. So there is no doubt ultimately that every Christian believes in some sense that we will be "ontologically" better off than those who are condemned and even better than we are right now. But second, and more importantly, this glorification will involve nothing less than GOD FILLING US WITH HIMSELF. (see Ephesians 3:14-19) So even then, our perfection is the glory of God overflowing out of us. Even then, we will have nothing about which to boast. Of course, that's the whole point. The God who chooses the foolish, poor, and weak is the God that uses those foolish, poor, and weak to DEMONSTRATE HIS OWN GLORY. But this was a really poor quality video. It's what happens when you have a 3 hour unfiltered and unchallenged anti-Calvinist jam session.
So we are incapable of having thoughts, independent of God putting them there? Are we basically God? So God will just damn some of His own thoughts to hell? We are incapable of reasoning?
I think some wires are crossed here. God must've decreed for some miscommunication or something else weird for his good pleasure. Independence as a distinction is moot with determinism. Determinism doesnt allow independence from determinism. So, when saying that "we cannot do anything wise," perhaps it is reasonable to conclude he is saying that from within the deterministic paradigm. Or at least, charitably, continue his thought since he has already identified before how he understands determinism. Because it is true, you cannot do something wise on determinism unless you are determined. Why should he speak verbose that you cannot act independently when you are determined? Follow me here, the guy was an avid Calvinist for years. And even probably a higher calvinist than you. Considering his testimony, and he used to affirm infant damnation (as did I many years ago). And of course, I would be remiss if I didn't also ask. Why do you think God determined him to not phrase it in the exact way you prefer? Did he do that independently, or did God make him? I don't mean independently as if he could exist by himself BTW.
you ended with “the God who chose the foolish poor and weak…” so if God’s choosing had a condition on the qualities of being foolish, poor, and weak , isn’t that a condition? If you are a Calvinist I presume you believe in unconditional election? (so you can rid yourself of that nasty boasting )
I boast about being an over comer [1 john 5] “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God”. To be an overcome is believing in Jesus. I’m curious what word do Calvinist use for “over comer”?
@@chrislucastheprotestantview - Your thoughts are not independent of God. If His Spirit is within you then you will have good and wise thoughts. If not, then those thoughts will be foolish. Thus, your reasoning depends on God. Just ask Nebuchadnezzar in Daniel 5.
@SheepDog1974 I never said it did. But even my Pentecostal side couldn't make heads or tails of what Idol Killer was saying, especially the smarter or foolish either or fallacy. No one said foolish. It was smarter, doesn't mean the other person was foolish? It was just really bad.
@@rogervincent2092 it was more articulate than your response 😆 At least Pentecostalism is based on biblical doctrine. Calvinism is a man's systematic philosophy.
I wouldn’t go so far as to call it babbling, but it wasn’t my favorite thing Warren or Great Light have done. I’d rather they just talk about what the Scripture says and let it interpret itself. Calvinism is not found in a clear reading of scripture. It began from the Gnostic influence of a particular Roman Catholic and was made famous by a guy who was a murderous religious thug.
@SheepDog1974 I would hope so since I only used 8 words. Dude, all teaching is philosophical. When you hear your pastor preach. It is biblical philosophy. The word trinity is not in the bible, so how do we interpret if not by using a systematic biblical philosophical approach. The naivety of many Christians.
That question is a Calvinist trap and doesn't deserve an answer. It's best not to play games with Calvinists because they think they are smarter than anyone who is not a Calvinist.
