Are Fortnite Chapters Too Short? 

2 year chapters make the maps more iconic, I already forgot about all the one year ones, they seem so irrelevant

I feel like the longer chapters allow all the poi’s to be fleshed out so much better so that we actually care about the map.

if chapter 3 was 2 years long it would have been so much better

From my experience with Fortnite, I think 2 year chapters are better for creating updates, maintaining the map by keeping it a longer time, having to spend less resources and also having enough time to do a very good chapter, like Chapter 2. I don't like these 1 year chapters much, because of 1 year completely changing map that makes me confused af when I see the new weapons again, the map being extremely inconfortable at first sight and yeah...pretty much just bs after chapter 2 + the weapons should be at least used and not forgotten in creative.

You also have to remember they reset the chapter around Christmas time almost every time. To give that bare bones first season a spice up with Christmas. And it almost always works

Donald Mustard had said that the main character from Fortnite was the map, this is why both chapters 1 and 2 were 2 years long because in Donald's mind it gave him enough time to fully develop the character of the "Map".

Short answer is yes, more time for people to actually learn to love the chapter and grow memories from them. That’s one of the reasons chapters one and two were so beloved. Also, there is more room for live events and even story elements.

With Chapters 1 & 2, players could get attached to the POIs that stuck around the most, such as Pleasant Park, Titled Towers, Dusty Depot/Divot, Risky Reels, etc. On top of that, you had content gold for many creators who came to know these POIs and do stupid shit with them. Story was bigger and had even some smaller ones like The Chair, The Gnome Family, etc. Certain skins from the BP actually had backstory, connections, and impact on the lore as a whole. Chapters 3 and 4 completely changed this flow, going for a much more quick and hustle-esque style. In Chapter 3, you went from new island, new paradise to ‘Paradise’, having it go from “Thank You , The Seven” to “Ending IO’s Career” to “My House by Flo Rida” (Party, basically), to “Why is everything becoming shiny?”. In moments, you had the Reality Tree biome-ify Greasy and the surrounding area, and the Sanctuary turned into a Chrome Castle the next season. Course, that’s not as bad as the next chapter, no. Chapter 4 gave us all the big name POIs and stuff, with one of them only getting spotlight for one season that chapter: Faulty Splits. After C4S1, it got consumed by the Neo Tokyo biome and POIs like Mega City and Kenjutsu Crossing. Wilds season wiped out Anvil Square and gave us some Jungle POIs and a biome. Then, in the last season of Chapter 4, Eclipsed Estate wiped out The Citadel, and Sanguine Suites wiped out Lonely Labs. And so far, Chapter 5 has followed much of the same. Ritzy Rivera got nuked by The Underworld and Grim Gate, while Hazy Hillside was wiped by Mount Olympus and Brawler’s Battleground, while Ruined Reels became Restored Reels. My point being is that Epic is, essentially, going by drop spot behavior. When they see a POI that most don’t land at, they’ll nuke it just to get a fresh one in there, hence why each chapter always has that one, two, maybe even three or four POIs that don’t undergo a single massive change over the course of the chapter, while less popular ones (Faulty Splits, Anvil Square, Ritzu Rivera, and Hazy Hillside) all get canned after a season or two without any real impact on the playerbase. 2 year seasons worked better cause we at least got some POIs that stuck around for three before even being severely altered/replaced completely, where now it’s either in one or two seasons before a POI is nuked in favor of a new one. Yes, I typed this all out cause I watched the full video and I see the positives and negatives, but as he said, “Epic is prioritizing Quantity over Quality”

2 year chapters were sick. But by the end your really feeling map fatuege. 1 year tho? Too short man. I feel like time goes by too quick for them. 1.5 years tho? Sounds perfect to me

I think 2 year chapters are just a more stable formula for the game, gives the devs some breathing room to work on the games content, and work on the next map more as well, and with Epic whole metaverse idea, it's probablythe better option. I think besides chapters 3 which was not intended to be 1 years, most people have just not liked the one year chapters as much as the 2 year chapters.

It feels like Fortnite is finding it harder to make a single Fortnite Chapter interesting so that makes me worried for the future of the game. Also Chapters having only 4 seasons sounds dumb and they should also have more seasons for a chapter.

I just miss the story and the hype around live events

I don’t care how long it is, I just want that storyline back

1.5 year long chapters with new seaons every 2 months. I think this is the sweet spot. Gives enough time for the map to have some longevity whilst also keeping players engaged in new seasons. Would never happen obviously. They would run out of ideas too fast at that rate. But what they are doing right now is good too; from both a player aspect and developer aspect. Its good for both the way they have it tbh.

Chapter 3 is the only 1 year chapter I have nostalgia from really, even though I still think Chapter 2 and 1 are better, if it had more time I think it could’ve surpassed them if Epic actually put there all into the seasons

2-year chapters 2 chapter had some many good seasons, but chapter 3 had 2 good seasons

I’ve enjoyed chapter 5 so far, but there was something about chapter 4 that felt very fresh and I loved all of the coloring of the map. It was so nice.

Hey, first of all I'm glad I've found your channel. It's nice to come across someone who makes retrospective and reflective content/commentary about the game for people who have stuck with the game long enough. Personally I had a lot of fun with chapter 4, but I would've still liked to see the chapters being more developed.

I feel if Epic were to go back to 2 year chapters they would have to make the map the scale of the chapter 2 map to fit more updates and it would just be better with a bigger map

Very well put together video!

Great points Mujy, keep up the grind 💪🏾

i just hope chapter 5 ends faster honestly 💀💀

Man I just want game modes for the older maps

1:14 Not to mention most if not all STW assets that got copied into battle royale have existed since the game entered early development in 2011

Very good video, i was surprised to see so little views and likes, you are underrated my man

What you said about varying lengths of chapters depending on the story would probably be the coolest and best approach. It would make events all the more exciting because we cant know for certain if we will save the map and it reduces repetitiveness. Only year longer chapter slowly start to feel like a normal season or map change after some time because we know its going to happen. Back then a new chapter was the greatest thing to happen cuz it has been so long and there wasn’t a set time for when a new chapter would happen.

I think the sweet spot is 5-6 seasons. This gives a little bit more time to appreciate the map and play it, and it also creates diversity so not every chapter end is going to be around the exact same date

One theory for Epic's 2-year Chapter 3 plan was to add the autumn/forest/oathbound biome from C4S1, midway through chapter 3 (After the Fracture event, a decent chunk of the Ch3 map would be gone, needing to be patched up with pieces from another reality) Essentially creating a kind of 'Chapter 3.5' map I honestly think this would be the best way to go about chapters - 2 year long chapters with some kind of huge map change halfway through, keeping things fresh while still allowing for more focus on balancing items, creating a storyline, and adding quality content

I honestly love this video and the points that you make. I actually agree with the idea of the director deciding the length of the timeline of the chapter based on how the story is going and honestly think that with how things are now, the chapters are too short. I recall hearing accounts from Fortnite developers about the extensive cuts made to shorten the season, affecting the length of the story, map changes, and a lot of other important key events that would explain certain plot holes we have today. It's really sad that because of this direction Epic has taken, we have unintentionally lost a lot of live events and map transformations. It's not like I insist on the chapters lasting 2 years, but I dislike the predictability during live events. For instance, if a nuclear warhead was about to be launched on the map and we had to stop it, the outcome is evident when there are still 4 more seasons remaining in the chapter. Which ruins the immersion. Instead, game chapters should progress in a manner similar to how chapters unfold in a book. They should end naturally when the chapter has wrapped up; it's part of the story. It should not be stretched out unnecessarily, but it should leave us with memories we can remember while also telling us a masterpiece of a story. (Some of this might be the "metaverses" fault because investors are always looking for change but that's something else to go into) with all that aside, I appreciate the time and effort you put into this video and I really wish for someone at epic to come across this video and take notes (because the community is what makes anything work.. including fortnite)

the problem is epic is more focused on creative and all these other gamemodes instead of battle royale. They think we need all of this but we really dont. Fortnite OG’s whole event was just promoting unreal engine and the other gamemodes

Chapter 2 brought much change to the fortnite formula, having a longer map like with c2 allows pros to learn the map and for casuals to really explore it, I enjoyed c2 purely for the map sure there was a content drought but having a set map for so long with as solid locations as the one we got made me really happy.

Never been so captivated by a video. Bro fixed my attention span

I want them to time travel back to season X, but then have the medior just miss the zero point or something, and have the story continue from there. Then they kinda just have a clean slate.

This video perfectly read my thoughts on the pacing of Fortnite chapters that I didn’t even know I had.

The thing that pissed me off about shorter chapters is that the lore just went down the damn drain. In just 4 seasons, chapter 3 completely fucked the entire Seven premise with zero build up or resolution

i love yearly chapters, feels refreshing. also, underrated cc, subbed.

Mongraal shouting "TACO TIME" always gets me 😂 Keep up the good work, definitely deserves a subscribe 🗣

The problem is the maps after CH2 were far too plain to deserve 2 years lmao. If we had 2 years on CH3, I woulda never played Fortnite again.

I think they should make it uncertain. They should go back and focus on the story like in Chapter’s 1 & 2. I think how long it takes to complete a story should be how long a chapter is

I just want the old running animations back :(

yeah, i feel like when they introduce big poi, epic tends to just abandon after the season ends, it be feeling like a ghost town.

I hate short chapters, theres no reason to enjoy the BR map because then the next chapter will be around the corner and a new map 🤦 We need longer Chapters like Chapter 1 and Chapter 2

One year chapters would be fine if they would actually make mid-season map changes!

so glad i stumbled across your channel, wish epic would too

man c1 s4-10 was already perfect in terms of map progression. good pacing, not overwhelming yet not lackluster. even with the features, there's a lot of things that kinda makes the game too saturated and overwhelming

Year and a half would be perfect imo. I feel like the two year chapters had the last 2 seasons feel so boring

wait? maps used to lasted two years???? I started playing during ch4, I wish that map lasted two years, it was so good compared to this new one, it also looked so much better visually with the more colorful art direction.

hello, that's a great vid :D some points about it to get it more perfect, when you make cinematics in rediffusion mode make your graphics all epics to get it more cool ;) and use a controller to not get a terrible view ^^ And its been like 3 years I stopped to follow the fortnite storyline, but as I know Donald Mustard wouldn't want it to finish like that and he is not okay with how epic works actually on Fortnite ;) Thats one of the reasons he quitted first I think Nice vid continue like that :D

Long chapters give time to tell the story of the chapter. Short ones make it to where we get new content more often

Finally some says this I hate 4 season chapters so MUCH I want to get attached to the map like chapter 2 again

I liked C4 alot since it was the first Chapter I played from Seaosn 1 to OG

i feel like a lot of good points are made and i definitely feel tagt ch5 is going in a good direction but the number 5 is my biggest issue, if we keep getting year long chapters is makes chapters oversaturated instead of big events with new maps since we know we have to say goodbye to the map soon, i feel like a good idea would be to mush the basic parts pf every map together and slowly introduce the more complex pois as the chapter progresses over about 1.5-2 years

well back then 2 years felt like a long time and now 2 years just happen in the blink of an eye so in my opinion maybe they should go back to making seasons 2 years long

Personally I think the 1 year long chapters ultimately make them feel forgettable in comparison to the first 2. I feel like chapter 2’s approach would work completely fine if you just moved the new biome changes to the sides of the map so you can keep them after the season. When you think about it they only added 4 new biomes so just don’t remove them and it’s fine.

Chapter 3 started out with probably the best map, sans daily bugle only nosedive into the worst map with all of the POIs being removed aside from risky reels.

In my opinion chapters should last 4-7 seasons depending on crowd reception (if people don’t like it then cut it short, etc)

I remember chapter 1 and 2 to a T but the rest are faded due to the fact that they are shorter

To me, I saw the chapters as a way to progress both the story and the game design. A chapter is not that interesting without both in my opinion, and when they happen too often and the story gets toned down, I start to lose interest in the new chapters. To me, they aren’t any more important than a season change, but just add a little more, even though there are lots of changes no matter the chapter. I thought that Fortnite was going to actually create a cohesive and short story that would end by like chapter 5 or something, and then they would conclude the story and then do whatever they want from there. I guess my expectations reflected how long I would be able to stand the game considering I’ve played since chapter 1 season 5. I suppose I’m just an outdated audience, and epic is willing to milk the chapters for all they are worth.

As someone who started out in Ch3 S2, i LOVE the way we get 2 consecutive seasons, before having an entirely new map for the next season. It just feels right to me. Plus i think the map additions are substantial enough to make the game feel different while also being small enough to still keep the same flow and feeling of the previous one. Personally the only one i didn't care for was the one in CH3 S4, that chrome paint all over the place felt god awful. But CH4 and 5 feel great i'd say.

Nah just make the chapter. 5 or 6 season that enough not to short not to long and only make the updates and map changes better

I started in Ch2 S2 and developed an immediate relationship with the map and various other details that made it such accessible game for me especially in quarantine. I continued to develop this attachment despite the eventual decline of the chapter and now that I’ve been through 3 others in the span of close to three years my preference has become more distinguished than ever. I feel the new content that comes with a chapter has lost its identity, that being its particularly special feeling, much like many other elements of the game. Hopefully someone at epic will ascend to a higher position and recognize the true desires of the players.

In retrospect, I think the longer Chapters helped me grow more attached to them, and I think Chapters should have a sense if escalation. Starting off relatively tame and grow more intense with the story and the map changes. Which is why Chapter 1 is my favorite. Chapter 2 felt like it had some pacing issues. C2S1 is the longest Season to date, being 128 days long, almost double the length of Chapter 1 seasons. And things kinda escalated until the Galactus Event, but then it kinda slowed down again until the alien invasion. And the Season 8 was disappointing because the event hyped up some massive map changes... that didn't show up in-game. Chapter 3 started off strong and ended in a whimper. After the Collision event, showcasing the climactic showdown between the Seven and IO, we got a quiet season, and the Chapter ended with a lackluster event that felt like it was completely rushed. It felt like we were missing the first hslf of the event, the confrontation with the Herald. And Chapter 4, well it was very disappointing. Not a single live event or significant story update. It was just content for the sake of content. Even the grand heist at the end of C4S4, the one we spent the whole season prepping for, occurred off screen, not even a cinematic for the time travel. If you want to see a chapter that's too short, just look at Chapter OG Season OG (yes, that's how the game classifies Season OG, just look at the item descriptionfrom of that Season's cosmetics). 4 weeks is way to short-lived, but at least the event was good, by being a retool of the original End Event. Now we have Chapter 5. I haven't grown attached to a single Chapter 5 POI. But at least there is some story going on, even if it's self contained within the particular Season, like the war of the Olympians. And I do appreciate the approaching dust cloud, reminding me of the C1S7 Iceberg. In conclusion, I think it's a combination of Chapter length, story (or lack thereof), and Seasonal content that makes or breaks a chapter.

Before I watch the video: Yes, 100%. Donald Mustard repeatedly told us that the uslamd is the main character. Growing with the island for more than a year gives us time to get attached to each island. Also, now that each chapter is a year ling, we all know the current map isn't going to stick around, so why should we get attached. Not knowing when the current island is going to end is one of the best parts of each island. I remember the hype in Ch2 S8 when there were rumors and "end" themed cosmetics/emotes and people weren't sure if Epic was trolling us or if they were being serious.

chapters really just feel like a new game when they come out really the only reason i continue to play today or really came back, they are doing it right with fornite tbh

Please can you do a review of Ch3 S3

I really dont like the one year long chapters. I just never grow attatched to fhe maps anymors. They dont really mean anything now. I cant even really remember the names of most POIs if the last two chaoters like I can with the first two. Nit to mention the real lack of story now. The last real story we had was in chaptee 3 So far this chapter has just been "Peely's gone missing! What will we do!" Then suddenly a hand pops out of the ground for no reason with Pandora's box, making gods appear on the island. The onoy semblance of story we git was apparently theres someone dangerous named "That Wanderer" but that doesnt matter right now, becausr now a sandstorm hit the island for some reason. The seasons dont really feel connected anymore, like they used to. Because they try to add so much content but restricted them selves to fitting it all within a year. If Chapters were at least a year and a half we could get up to at least 6 seasons to really connect the story. But the devs don't care as much about the BR story any more which sucks. I was so invested in the story back in chapter 1 and 2 but now I don't even really bother paying attention to what scraps of a story they try to make now.

Outdated by now is the Idea it needs to be a completely different map every chapter. 6 seasons per chapter is perfect, and keeping the base map for maybe 2 chapters is perfectly fine too , just Allows for more map changes throughout the chapter or chapters.. gradually changing areas over time. Both the chapter 3 & 4 maps had huge potential for further improvement, but both chapters ended just when the maps were finally getting good variations. 🤷

I really don’t like the 1 year chapters, mainly because it feels like whenever I finally get used to a chapter and finally start to love it, it’s gone. (I miss you chapter 4)

The 2 year maps are most definitely the best ones and have the most nostalgia factor to them but I think the best approach would be a year and a half chapter with 6 season it’s not too many and not too few it gives fornite just enough to build a story around the game without it being to complicated or not interesting at all like chapter 4 or 5. If Fortnite keeps up with a new chapter every year we will be in chapter ten of Fortnite in 2029 with a chapter 7 OG short season at the end of the year

I think a year and a half long chapter might be worth experimenting with to see how it could feel cuz I think it would give players a good amount of time to grow attached to a map and locations while giving each season enough breathing room in terms of quality over quantity content that the seasons could really start to feel good again

I feel like a chapter is like 20 days because time flies so fast but I believe that chapters from season 1-4 are like 120 days

The problem with Chapter 2 was that each season replaced the previous map changes so almost nothing stuck around apart from the season 1 poi's, which after 2 years got boring. Lets also not forget that season 1 and 2 were abnormally long. If done correctly a full 10 season chapter can be great.

I feel like I’ll always prefer the two year chapters, but that doesn’t mean I hate the one year chapters. The two year chapters just had more iconic poi’s, and I always felt like there was a place I could land or something to keep the game new and exciting. Plus, the content updates were always enjoyable, and added a lot to the game. Nowadays it’s just a new item, maybe a gun, and some patches to glitches

I just love the feeling I had stepping into chapter 2 so I guess I prefer 2 year chapters I just think the newer ones don’t have the same feel as chapter 1/2

ngl, i want the 2 year chapters back nomatter what. When ch 2 came out, it felt amazing because it pretty much was a complete rework of the original game, after all it was expected to be because it had 2 years to figure out what they were gonna do which was plenty of time, so when ch 3 came out it felt even better, and yes the map problems presented did exist, but the thing is the game felt extremely fresh. So fresh in fact, I get nostalgic for ch 3. im not kidding. The way how the game played, the aesthetics changed, and how the weapons and movement was new was so fucking refreshing and made me play to level 200 in the first season, and then season 2 launched, which wasn't as good as s1, but still pretty damn good. they introduced new movement, guns, and the blimps made the map feel extremely cinematic and were a definite welcome change. Season 3 slowed down a bit, and it was alright. Season 4 sucked because it just felt like they were dedicating resources to something else, and they were. That new thing being ch 4 and when I learned we were gonna be getting a new chapter, I was NOT happy. after 2 years of waiting we finally get a good and fresh map and epic just has to ruin it and try and replicate ch 3's success while missing exactly what made it special, which was the wait. Chapter 4 wound up being extremely mid and didnt even have a que on launch day because of how mid it was, and that's all due to the fact that they tried to completely revamp the game in a matter of a single year while still developing the game. I honestly couldn't tell you what happened in season 3 or 4 of ch 4 because honestly i dont remember anything about it, again due to how unspecial it was. Epic realized their mistake and proceeded to release the OG season, which was special because of how much everyone wanted the old map back, and it was in my opinion, the best fortnite season ever. Not due to nostalgia, but because the season was just plain fun, and it showed, because there was a que for like the first 4 days of the season. They released ch 5 a month later and it was alright, the train was cool but it was nothing special. Why? Because they didnt wait 2 years.

Its hard to decide, I mean if the chapter sucks then short if its great then long, but also progressing to different chapters like ch6 just feels weird.

The time devs spend on building a whole new map could be spent on giving us more LTMs and In-game events each season. I would be fine with a 2 year cycle as long as we were getting more fun content updates in between.

Looking back, I really like the year long chapters when it comes to map changes and now, they feature an OG and a new map so 2 maps. However, the longer chapters have slow biome changes but a better story. I'd prefer 6 seasons or 1.5 or even 1.3 years roughly

i just want the story back, what happened to IO, seven, Geno? they just telling us 3 chapters of storytelling (inconsistent, but still part of the same thing) are nothing? and now we have LEGO and random star wars events a minority care about? Their new metaverse push is failure compared to BR anyway, why bother?

Even thinking that chapter 5 can have 10 seasons is terrifying

They've confirmed that they're now abandoning Live Events for Fortnite Festival, Racing, & Lego. Which is sad 😔

I mean I don’t mind 1 year chapters, especially with og at the end of the year, it’s a nice mix of new and old

great vid

In my opinion, all I want from Fortnite is just another storyline season a season that just at least pay some attention to the original storyline. That’s all I want a season that at least acknowledges the past storyline.

I miss when they make changes on the map during the season

I think 1 and 1/2 year would be the perfect length. But I suppose it really depends on how I feel about the chapter, I loved CH3 so it ending so soon was rough for me and something I never quite got over. But with CH4 I spent pretty much the entire Chapter eagerly waiting for it to end. But regardless 1 1/2 year and six seasons is the perfect length I feel, long enough for it to feel like the title of a new chapter actually means something again, but not so long that it overstays its welcome.

They should experiment with 1.5-year chapters, since the longer the chapter, the more love it will get and the more effort Epic can put into it, especially since 1 year is too short but (for Epic at least) 2 years is too long.

There was a nice long chapter I believe around late 2019-2021. I liked that chapter and grew to love the map. If we kept longer chapters we’d have more attachment.

If Chapter 3 was executed as intended it would’ve went in this order: Chapter 3 Season 1 Chapter 3 Season 2 Chapter 3 Season 3 Chapter 4 Season 1 Chapter 4 Season 4 Chapter 4 Season 3 Chapter 4 Season 2 Chapter 3 Season 4 Chapter 4 Season 5 would have probably taken place after Paradise, then Chapter “4” would’ve started, and I personally would have loved it if things had gone the way it was intended.

i think the main issue with chapter 2 was that the map changes were just removed after the season. only a few minor changes stayed, while the pois that changed just got reverted back so nothing built on top of each other. chapter 1 worked as a longer chapter because each map change stuck around and they all worked together for the entire chapter. also chapter 3 and chapter 4 just went by too quick and they didn't leave a meaningful impression. it feels like we barely get to know a map before it gets reset. i think 1 year chapters are too short, but 2 year chapters are too long, so something in between would be perfect.

We know every Chapter is 1 year, which means we just know it’s 4 seasons and that’s that. No secrets as to when it’ll end, we already know Basically it means we know what to expect, no surprises and no time to really enjoy the map because we know it’ll be gone by the end of the year

Chapter 3 was the best chapter with the best Map I'm so upset it ended early, then got replaced with the worst map and seasons fortnite ever made

Chapter 1 and Chapter 2 map were memorable cause I grow up with them the other Chapter not much since they usually gone before I can enjoy them 1 year not enough to enjoy the whole Chapter island

Chapter 5 isn’t even 6 months old and it’s already too long

I feel they should do 3 seasons + the 1 month OG season during December

Depends how much they want to work tbh. If they are inspired im down for it.

It’s makes maps less iconic but keeps the game fresh

hear me out, the 2 year length but each season is half a year, which still means 4 seasons, but they have a longer amount of time to work on features for next season or updates for the current season

I think the 1 year honestly is better. A new map ever year keeps things fresh. But it doesn't mean I don't have fun with the old maps. Fortnite og was really fun to go back a visit. But you really see the quality of life improvement that you have when you go back that are not there

2 year chapters are better, we got more map evolution experience and its better for competitive in terms of learning drop spots and map mechanics consistently. It also make it easier to balance the game. Plus that's when we had a good storyline to the game due to longer chapters. I hate the fact that the main storyline is now dead and more disjoint and Fortnite attempts to attract more players with more niche options like Lego and Rocket Racing. These modes are so pointless especially for any competitive, mid-competitive, or casual and even zero-build players. Fortnite isn't a game that you typically spend 30 - 60 min on. Either you grind the game competitive in creative maps or ranked for several hours, or spend 1-2 hours likely playing pubs with friends or yourself to grind and play the BR game for fun. Lego and rocket racing is so pointless. I would've invested this time into longer chapters with more exciting competitive experiences and prize pools, as well as go back and invest time in Save the World. The playerbase of STW would be a lot better with more bugfixes and the Twine storyline, and now with so much different cosmetic purchases in the game, free VBucks in STW as a FTP option would balance the game's economy better. I hate that Fortnite thinks that the niche gamemodes seem to be a good long term haul. They killed the storyline, longer chapters, and also killed StW for this. Creative 2.0 is fine though.