See past Sunday Musings: SundayMusings.org Mainstream Christians criticize Mormons for having additional scripture beyond the Bible, yet themselves rely on doctrinal creeds that are not in the Bible. What gives?
When my husband and I got married, we became one, yet we remain two separate beings. When I strive to become one with Christ, I am not changed into a singular physical being, yet I am joined with Him in purpose.
Before I joined the Church I was in a religion class at a Methodist church college. The teacher said "don't tell my bosses but I cannot believe that Heaven would be so boring as playing a harp all day. I don't know what we will be doing but we will always be growing" I thought, the missionaries just taught me about Eternal progression!!!
5-10 yrs ago hearing someone tell me I wasn't Christian would have caused me to go into an explanation as to all the reasons why I am a Christian. These days, I don't care what anyone says about my beliefs. I know what I believe and why and I have a strong enough witness from the Lord that the path I am on is correct. I don't need validation from anyone else.
After being orthodox, I felt closer to Christ in this church than before. There are many good things in many churches, but I believe this is His church.
Interesting. As a born and raised LDS I have been researching a lot about orthodoxy and the early church. I think it’s beautiful and there are truths they have that we don’t and Vice verse. Curious why you feel closer in this church?
@@Adam-ww8ei Maybe because it teaches what all others do not (1) Pre-Mortal Existence (2) Plan of Salvation (3) Knowledge we can continue to improve and become perfect in Christ (now and in the next life) (4) The "nature" of God (He is a person, our literal father, and has a perfect body) like Christ has, and what we shall have in the next life (4) Temple work - guarantees everyone has an opportunity to receive "all" of Gods promises - to everyone that ever lived. So again - lots more clarity and info.
I'm LDS but I love the content I'm seeing from my Orthodox brothers. It's refreshing to hear their sincere belief in Jesus. I believe all sincere followers of Jesus hear His voice and follow Him and I Believe Jesus will embrace both.
@@Adam-ww8ei you try and bait lds members with your disingenuous questions and then come back with snarky responses . You go do you - and stop the hate 😏 Anti LDS commenters spend their energy being jerks instead of being followers if Christ . First commandment is love one another.
My mother was a Methodist as a child. She said when she was 12 she read the Bible. Her assumptive view based upon the Bible was that the three are separate. Her Methodist preacher proclaimed the old creeds of the trinity. Even at that young age, she quietly disagreed. Then, when our family was young, she and my dad were taught by the missionaries. The nature of the godhead and the BM aligned with her earliest understanding of her childhood. For me, I’m really unconcerned if our Protestant friends think we aren’t Christian’s per their definition. I know they condemn us, but that also doesn’t bother me.
My mom was the same, regarding the trinity, in the Lutheran church and joined The Church of Jesus Christs of Latter Day Saints when I was young. I still remember our missionaries. Also, Just a suggestion, but it might be better to use BOM for Book of Mormon accronymn instead of BM, because in the medical and childcare industries BM stands for bowel movement, and that’s where my brain went to first 😂
Elder Holland, several years ago, spoke to a group of students at Harvard Law School (see RU-vid) and answering the question, "Why would some say Mormons are not Christian!?" Part of his response was, "If you're referring to 2nd or 3rd century Nicean creed believing, Athanasian creed believing Christians, we're not that kind of Christian!"
@@davidjanbaz7728 All the people you seem to be defending also now think you can have homo sexual marriage IN thier "Christian" church, because it was voted on. 😄
@@davidjanbaz7728 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another"
@@davidjanbaz7728 all "Christian" churches differ on tenants. Such as mode of baptism, is baptism necessary for salvation, etc. When we have our encounter with Jesus He will be able to resolve those differences in the blink of an eye. We would do well to accept that the churches are not going to unite on tenants just like orthodox and Roman Catholics had the great schism. But what we can agree on is love and following Jesus the best we can. He'll clear up the rest.
Oh, me too! They look super jerky just talking to these determined young kids who are literally giving up prime years of fheir life to talk to people about Jesus, as if they're talking to pro-abortionists. It's very unsettling and not a good look for them AT ALL. Yet they post these encounters with the attitude of superiority and self-aggrandizement.
The lack of knowledge about our faith is crazy. My branch ran a community wide food drive for the local food bank, not for our members in need. The Pentecostal pastor told his youth that if they stepped foot in our church to help (the food bank people and people from various churches were there to help) that they were damned and their souls were in danger. I was a teacher at the local high school and knew these kids…and they knew me…..and every one of them showed up to help. They knew me, judged our faith by my example and knew that their pastor was simply wrong.
Since you pointed out you weren't helping members, maybe you can answer why the church helps nonmembers so easily, but not members? Like with missionaries, only if a conversion could be the result?
@@amybaker1880what do you mean? We help members just as much if not more than non-members. I was in a few leadership positions that allowed me to see a lot of the help that the church provided to its members. Much of that help was invisible to other members. It was things like paying rent or car payments. Tons of members regularly get help with food and toiletries. The church provides lots of programs to help with life skills like classes that teach money management skills. They have an online college program that is ridiculously affordable compared to everything else out there (last I checked it was close to $130 a credit hour).
@@amybaker1880 I am not sure what you mean that the Church does not help members? While membership is not a requirement to receive help, neither is it a restriction. At least 2/3s of the people in my area who get help from the Bishop's Storehouse are members.
@@brettmajeske3525 I went without, but was always encouraged to give more. I paid my tithing, but didn't have brakes on my vehicle, didn't have gas money to attend church, etc. An extremely kind anonymous member paid for my Mom's cremation, Church didn't help at all. The government helps with food. Why only help where help isn't needed?
@@amybaker1880 Amy I have experienced the same thing in all Christian churches . People make up churches. I hope your family, church and community will join to help. Blessings to you
I saved this video for this reason. Since a young age I have always believed that the Trinity didn’t make any sense. According to the Bible, and Jesus Christ himself , it is clear about the divinity and the separateness of Jesus Christ , God the father and the Holy Spirit. I don’t understand why the Nicene orthodoxy Christian community still has such animosity to the truth of the godhead. This video gives me confirmation and comfort to me so well ! Christ is king and God is our Father- Let the force (holy spirit ) be with us !
Thanks for another excellent presentation, Connor. One point, I didn't notice if you brought it up, but the "no body, parts, or passions" idea seems super incongruent with believing in the reality and importance of Christ's resurrection.
I think the same thing. Also, the fact we are created "in his image". The evangelicals have a strange way of explaining that one. It is so much more profound than they realize
"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it." -Joseph Smith Jr.
As a former Evangelical Christian Pastor, i was taught and trained to hate the Mormons for teaching weird and unbiblical teachings. I was taught that they are not Christians and they doctrine is from the devil. One day, while reading the New testament, i came across this verse in the Bible " Matthew 7 :: NIV. "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you" I told myself, I am a Pastor, why would i judge this Mormons as devil, when i haven't pray to God about their doctrine. I will use all my energy and all the knowledge in the Bible, and i will pray to the God of the Bible, if The Book of Mormon is from devil. I began to plead with God, begging Him to please answers my prayers because if will judge the Mormons to be of the devil, and found out that i was wrong, the same judgment will fall unto me. The answer is now a history. I testify that Jesus Christ lives, and by the power of the Holy Ghost, i know the Book of Mormon testify of the divinity of Jesus Christ that He was the God of Israel. By reading the Book of Mormon, a person will get closer to Jesus Christ by keeping His commandments through loving our neighbors and serving with no expect in return. I am now serving in the Church of Jesus Christ, voluntarily with no paid ministry or paid clergy. Its all donated labor voluntary services, unlike when i was a Pastor, we get paid and have salary. I testify that the Prophet Joseph Smith is called of God and was a Prophet. I sustain the living Prophet today who hold the keys of the Priesthood, and that is President Russell M Nelson. Im grateful for my upbringing as Evangelical Pastor, for if not so, i will not be a Latter Day Saint today and known the glorious restoration of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The whole "trinity" vs. "non-trinity" doesn't seem to actually make any difference in how we should behave. I wonder what trinitarians think they believe is moral, that non-trinitarians don't believe is moral.
This comment demonstrates a key difference in LDS vs Christian belief. How we behave doesn’t make the difference in our salvation. Our understanding of who God is does make the difference. That is why this issue is so important.
@@teldyer4539 So is the claim that anyone who makes a mistake in their understanding of God doesn't get salvation? If, for example, you understand God is 6' 4", but he's really 6' 5", does that stop you from repenting, atoning, and being saved? Or, if you're literally an agent of Satan, and have a perfect understanding of who God is, are you still allowed salvation while working against God's plan? As an atheist looking from the outside in, it seems to me that the gospels ask believers to behave a certain way (love one another), but also offers redemption from any sin, so long as one atones and repents. Are there really christians that don't believe there is any guidance from God on how to behave?
@@JereKrischel No sir, wether God is 6'4" or 6'5" is absolutely non-essential. What is essential is that you understand that there is only one God, that he is the creator of all things, and that Jesus is that God. Beyond that you must accept him as your only means of salvation. The Bible teaches that grace+salvation=righteous works. Religions of man teach that grace+righteous works=salvation. In other words, you as a human are helplessly wicked but by the grace of God your heart can be changed and you will bear fruit in the form of righteous works. These two points (the nature of God and how the gospel works) are core to Christianity. A religion that get's these essentials wrong is not Christian and has perverted the message of the Bible.
@@teldyer4539 Okay, let me see if I can repeat back to you what I understand - you believe that grace+salvation guarantees that you will do righteous works, and furthermore, people who believe that grace+righteous works will lead to salvation are mistaken, and will not have salvation. I guess let me ask this question - if you see someone does *not* have righteous works, can you infer that they either lack grace, or lack salvation? Or, if you see someone *does* have righteous works, can you infer that they have both grace and salvation? Again, as an atheist looking from the outside in, it seems to me that you can have two (or three) things. You can have grace, righteous works, and salvation -> putting the "=" sign as if it were some sort of equation doesn't seem to make sense. Maybe a better question is this - can you recognize Christians by the way they behave? Can you recognize trinitarians by the way they behave? Can you recognize non-trinitarians by the way they behave? I've grown to think of the bible as containing wisdom on how we ought to behave, to reduce our resentment, and increase our gratitude. It doesn't seem to require perfection from us, but it does seem to require at least some sort of effort...even if that effort is just the accepting of grace and salvation. What do you think I have wrong, when it comes to behaving like a Christian?
@@JereKrischel Great questions. I can only relay what the Bible teaches. What do you think about this passage from Ephesians 2:8-10? “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” Paul teaches here that salvation is not a result of works and that God has prepared good works for us to walk in. As far as people being mistaken that grace+righteous works lead to salvation. Here is Paul again in Galatians 5:2-4. “Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.” You have to take the Bible as a whole though. James 2:17 says faith without works is dead and in verse 18 “Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.”. If you go read James in context he answering the same question you are asking. “How can you tell if someone truly has faith and is saved?” James makes it clear that good works are an indicator of true faith or lack of true faith but they are not the cause or requirement for salvation. I think you have a good point that making this into an equation isn’t a perfect representation of how things work and I think your description of what it looks like from the outside to behave like a Christian is pretty accurate. The effort required of us is to accept and believe in Christ. But there is nothing else we can do to contribute to our salvation. God only cares about the heart and is the only one who can see our hearts. So ultimately you can’t judge someone by their behavior but we are taught that behavior is an indicator. Can I ask, what led you to be an atheist?
Thanks for addressing this, Connor. I don't understand why so many "Christians" just want to tear down other believers in Jesus Christ. Thanks for all you do to address misconceptions and untruths that "antis" use "kill, steal and destroy" (John 10:10).
I would say to Ben... Then, why even describe the relationship as father and son, father and children!? Why not just say God and subjects!? One of the most repeated messages of the scriptures is to follow my foot steps, my example, to emulate the Father!
Jesus calls his Father his God and your God. (John 20:17) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
I love your thoughtful channel. Respectfully , Has anyone read Joseph Smith's King Follet Discourse lately or ever? This is where Christians get the thought that the LDS have the doctrine that they believe they will become God's and believe God evolved from a man on another planet. We love you . Peace to you. Please compare Isaiah 43.10,11 Isaiah 44.6-8 Isaiah 45.5 John 1.1 Isaiah 9.6 I was raised LDS I know your faith, devotion , good fruit and beauty. I cannot accept the King Follet Discourse. I believe also in the words of Jesus when He said the Father is Spirit and that those who worship HIM must worship HIM must worship Him in Spirit and truth. John 4.24. Further , JESUS said there was no marriage in heaven, but that they are as the angels, neither given in marriage. People argue that Jesus was just speaking to the Sadducees. I think they simply don't take the Lord Jesus at His Word. That is astonishing to me!! They trust more in the arm of flesh🥺 I mean no disrespect at all. I lose sleep over this. I am so saddened and troubled. My beautiful family remain lds. I could not love or respect them more. I am only speaking of doctrine. I wish you all the best. ❤ Why do you not address the King Follet Discourse by Joseph Smith??? Also, Edit: nowhere, nowhere in the Bible is there anything about a heavenly mother or multiple wives in heaven. Nowhere. Isaiah 40.8 The grass withers and the flowers fade, but the Word of our God shall stand forever. God is capable of keeping His word together. The leaders shamed me for asking so many questions. They told me not to research. That was such a red flag. In the end l learned far more than l wanted to Know, and l understood why they say not to research. They are afraid. Now they gas light. They call us Lazy learners, lax disciples. That is an un truth. 😢 I studied my way right out of Mormonism. I can only tell you to research. Because l love you all. I know the LDS people. I love them . 🥹💔💕 Be blessed. Be blessed in the Jesus of Nazareth. I researched the reliability of the Bible. Wow! It Stand's!
Wow really love this one Connor. I agree with you almost 100%. Full disclosure, our family left the church last summer. After we left we investigated evangelical/protestant Christianity and within weeks I found that it wouldn’t be good for our family. Their exclusionary definitions and constant “mormons are going to hell” barrage was a huge turnoff for me. Like you said it is all about the definitions and they believe they hold the rights to those definitions. My daughter has been dating a Christian guy (they recently broke up 😬) and the arguments about religion were totally ridiculous because she refused to get on board with the trinity, nicene creed, the Bible is infallible, etc etc. He would come just short of telling her she was probably going to hell because she didn’t believe how he did. If we could all just get along and love like Jesus did we could avoid a lot of this stupidity. ❤
Ok boys and girls, let's get one thing straight ... well, one thing with a few tangents. Christianity, per se, is not the belief in Jesus' divinity, nor in His charitable teachings, nor in life-after-resurection. "Christianity", according to Evangelical Protestants and Catholics, rests in the 325 AD Nicean declaration of the Nature of God. Athanasius vs Arius (two Alexandrian priests circa 4th century) engaged in an all-out duke-fest between opposing concepts of God and the Godhead. Meantime, Roman Emporer Constantine had a (feigned) "conversion vision" and decided to unite his empire under the cloke of "Christianity" as defined by his assembled Nicean Council ... which sided with Athanasius' concept of God. Arius and his followers were booted from the empire. But, Arius' concept of God perpetuated under the banner of Arianism (not Aryanism which deals with racial superiority). Think about it. Constantine's crew of priests determined the Nature of God Almightly, 1000 years before knowing anything about a giant continent that separates the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans; 1400 years before the Germ Theory of Disease and Internal Combustion Engine and Plate Tectonics; 1500 years before Edwin Hubble revealed an Expanding Universe; 1600 years before Quantum Mechanics. The combined knowledge of Humankind pales in comparison to the Nature of God, yet these arrogant bafoons presumed that they had it all figured out ... in 325. And, Constantine pushed the narrative ... for political power. Anybody who accepts the Nicean Creed concept of God is a 4th century "Christian". While those who accept the Four Gospel's Concept of God are 1st century "Christians". Latter Day Saints are 1st Century Christians. They believe in Jesus' divinty, in Jesus' charitable teachings and in Jesus' life-after-resurrection. And, they know a teeny-tiny bit more about the true Nature of God via Joseph Smith's revelations ... and the Temple Endowment. A teeny-tiny bit more. In today's age when people trade-in their car every 4 years or cell phone every 2 years, or switch political parties when a new-fangled candidate appears, or move from city to city searching for a new job or girlfriend, those same people cling to a decrepid 1700 year-old Nicean "guess" about the Nature of God. And, they decry anybody who accepts the Four Gospels' narrative about God. Do I hear an AMEN?
Sola scriptura was intended to reform the church in the apostate religious climate of the 16th century- and in the absence of prophets and apostles, it was a 'best practice' with good intentions... but of course, per Ephesians 2:20, the foundation of the Church isn't a selection of canonized writings- it is built on prophets and apostles, Christ himself being the chief cornerstone. It is unfortunate that creedal Christians choose to adhere to the traditional creeds instead of acknowledging the power of God- the true foundations of the Church have been restored, and it is through this foundation that the true nature of God, His doctrines, and scripture itself flow.
I miss the old school directness of these apostles. We all learn differently but I'm definitely someone who needs to hear it bluntly, so I appreciate it.
Minute 3:00. Ben Zeisloft is correct; if he does not want to elevate himself to the ordained position of God, then he will not elevate to that position. But, and this is a big BUT, his lack of ambition or confidence in Christ has no bearing on my ambition or my confidence in Christ's ability to elevate me.
One thing they don't think is a father and child relationship. Isn't the purpose of family is to raise children to become parents themselves. Even a a married person, I still honored my father. What do they think we will be doing for eternity? Living on a cloud and plying a harp?
As a member of the LDS Church, I've never been concerned in the least about being accepted by sectarian Christianity. The fact they are in apostasy was why the Restoration was necessary in the first place.
I never understood why the rest of the Christian world don’t believe we’re Christian until Pastor Jeff from Hello Saints explained the reason as our view of the trinity. Crazy that to be a Christian you have to subscribe to some doctrine that you cannot understand.
John 17:3 We are supposed to know and understand God. For faith to be faith it has to be in something true. Faith in an unknowable God does not produce the fruits of faith. Edit: My comment written before I got to the point in the video with the quote from Lectures in Faith. Yes, Joseph said it better than I did. 😊
I have never seen a single argument made by any traditional Christian-even doctors of theology-whose argument about a basic set of qualifying “Christian” beliefs did not ultimately rest entirely on appeal to tradition. The “mystical” trinity idol isn’t even logically possible, and that’s mainstream philosophy that you can find in any modern encyclopedia of philosophy.
At about 28:10 it seems that Connor has a common misunderstanding of the Trinity - mistaking it for modalism, i.e. "same person". Connor, I'd be glad to clear this up for you in dialog.
Happy Father’s Day. There are two important topics I hope you will do episodes on someday. 1) The change of the name of the church in 1834 from the Church of Christ to Church of Latter Day Saints, with Lord’s name being removed off of the church by Joseph Smith and 2) a review of Who Killed Joseph Smith by Justin Griffin. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bXfTw01ogPk.htmlsi=C3YBWk2Y-p2T9Ff5
The most annoying thing about the whole Christian situation is that the other Christian church never fought back against Anti-Male wave in American Culture. From the bashing of Fathers in TV to the grow female centered focus in Education to the millions of dead children to the Destruction of Male only spaces. At least, the Mormons had the "Attack on the Family" during the 80s and 90s. Although, they did fall in to the "Make Music Safe" era during that time with the rest of the Christian Community. Not one ounce of Masculine Music was being made as Metal was being built against Christian and drawing masculinity toward them.
@@davidbean8168 It wasn't the same term of "make music safe", but "be in holy places". The push to stay away from Conflict and don't listen to music that offense the spirit. This church culture made everything around it "safe" and risk avoidant. Making the metal and rap and rock music fill up with anti-Christian groups that burn bibles. This caused the culture to shift to more feminine characteristics that made groups to be more accepting and tolerant killing the Boy Scouts with Male Only Spaces already disappearing since the 70s. As video games made males more stationary and education forcing 8 hours of stay still and tv encouraged by the boomers, there was a growing decline of risk and adventure. The country was not hit as bad as the stationary city people, but the culture was still spreading. Making the males femininized or criminals to get that sense of risk in their lives. With years of parents not interested in their children's lives at school or the media they watched because of work culture, there was a push for the "Strong, Independent Woman" and the view of the "Door Mat" father under the watch of the Christian Community. The USA failed the boys after Gen X because they trusted in a Culture that hated them. If the Christian Community cared about their children, they would have stopped that Culture that hated them and made strong men.
Ya I need to act better it just gets me upset when people tell me I’m stupid and that those who convert are equally dumb. It makes me angry because my Grandma was a convert to the LDS church. Ya I’m really protective of my family I truly need to be better when defending our faith
Are we not each a body, mind, and spirit? Are those three things not distinct, but still one? The difference is, we have conflicts between our body, mind and spirit, which is why we suffer with being torn between competing "internal" interests. Is becoming a Son of Daughter of God no more and no less than bringing our mind, body and spirit into complete agreement and both accepting our power and submitting to it? Did not Christ in Gethsemane wish from the body that the cup could be taken from Him, but nevertheless the will of the Father be done? Why do we complicate this?
John 8 42 kjv if God were your Father ye would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God neither came I of myself but he sent me.... so let me write it as a trinitarian ... for I the one and only God proceeded forth and came from me myself God to nag you to be good but neither came I God of myself but I God sent me myself... so God lies to us and says neither came I of myself neither came I of myself . So why would we have faith in God to save us if he lies? He might be lying about saving us... it's that simple and I have much more . Someone stepup and try to defend your trinity
The fact that it takes a 45 min discussion just to review why we ask people to refer to us as Christian’s is exactly the reason almost no other religious denomination likes evangelicals
Well done. It's a good topic. I've tested out the answer "whether or not I'm a Christian is between Christ and me." because it seems ridiculous that mortals believe they are the arbiters of "true" Christianity. I haven't had many takers though, so I can't say how well it works. I sent my kids to a Christian school in 2021, when most schools were still covid hysterical. I knew about the collective statement of faith that protestant sects agree on and that it is sort of designed to exclude Catholics and restorationists. But they were very kind to my family in a crazy time. They behaved in a Christian way toward us even though periodically they let my kids know that our doctrine was suspect. Mainly though my kids thought it was a bit of a culture shock. They prayed differently. They pledged allegiance to the American flag, the Christian flag, and the Bible every morning. But overall, it was a great lesson for us on how to find common ground.
The premise of your introduction is false. Are Mormons Christians is not an age-old debate. It is only fairly recently that Mormons, for whatever reason, like to define themselves as Christians and it does, I don't know why, seem quite important to them. I grew up in the 60's and 70's in a Mormon environment. Back then in America, Christianity was either Catholic, Protestant and Protestant Evangelical as perceived in the public sphere. Billy Graham, Campus Crusade for Christ, four spiritual laws, Hal Lindsey and the Late Great Planet Earth stuff, Jerry Falwell and the Moral Majority were all center in the public religious consciousness. Since you weren't there, but I was, I am here to tell you, Mormons in no way wanted any part of this and you would have searched high and low without success to find Mormons who identified as Christians. They just didn't. They were quite content to wear the "Mormon" badge as their identity. It has been posited by others that Mitt Romney's presidential bid mobilized Mormons to identify as Christian in order to gain acceptance from the public at large for their candidate and that the Mormons are Christian's notion escalated from there. There is probably a lot of truth in that. Now let me get this straight. Christianity began in the aftermath of the life and death of Christ and the descent of the Holy Spirit and has existed for 2,000 centuries as a monolithically, Trinitarian faith. Mormonism comes along 18 centuries later and is not quite 200 years old in their polytheism and now they are asking, "who is the gate keeper" for the meaning of the word Christian? Thats rich. Remember, it is your prophet, Joseph Smith who fashioned his church as far from Christianity as the east is from the west. Christianity rose out of Judaism which is Monotheistic. Christ was identified from the get-go by believers as fully divine. This creates a problem The Trinity is a far more elegant solution than polytheism. Sorry, but polytheism puts you outside the realm of Christianity. If you don't think so, then put it to the test. Go to any Christian Church, institution or organization and present yourself as a polytheistic Christian and see how you get on with them.
We reject the idea that Satan’s lie was Adam and Eve could become as gods. His lie was that they wouldn’t die. We reject the creator/creature or uncreated/created distinction. We accept that the natural man is an enemy to God yet fully believe that Christ’s atonement can heal us of our sins and bridge the gap fully between God and His children.
The first quote just brought a thought to my mind how Christians say Jesus is God and God is Jesus... So Lorenzo snow was right with the quote paraphrasing... as man is God once was, as God is man may become. So unless Jesus is not God and they're two separate beings, are we right!? 🤯🫣
@5:17 I don't think the issue that most Christian theologians would have with Mormon theology really comes from the idea that we can become like God or God-like... Clearly there is overlap with the Orthodox view on Theosis and join-heirship, etc... LDS theosis is only ancillary to the larger conflict about the nature of God, which is the idea that there was a time before our God existed, that he was created, was a once man/sinner, that he later became perfect, and that there might be some kind of infinite regression of gods (God's God, etc), all of whom would reasonably be more progressed than our God. I'm saying this as a former member of the LDS church, so please don't assume I'm ignorant to the nuances of LDS theology.
I honestly think this preoccupation with the Trinity as a point of difference between LDS and traditional (or Evangelical) Christianity is rather silly. First, few LDS have any idea what the Trinity doctrine teaches. They believe Trinitarianism is “Modalism” (that the members of the Trinity are just three “modes” of one God) which itself is rejected as a heresy in traditional Christianity. But one can scarcely blame the LDS for this, because most traditional western Christians are, in reality, Modalists themselves and describe the Trinity in that way. The pollster Barna has shown this extensively in his research. In reality, James Talmadge was comfortable using the word “Trinity” to describe the current LDS belief 100 years ago, and one would be hard-pressed to find an Evangelical Protestant Church (except the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod) that recites ANY creed, let alone the Nicene. So to have this pitched battle between LDS members railing against “Trinitarianism” (when they think Trinitarianism is “Modalism”) and Evangelicals staking their definition of “Christianity” on a Nicene creed they don’t even know or recite seems, well, silly….. Most people are unaware that there are not one, but TWO Nicene Creeds. The Roman church added the “filioque” to the creed in the 10th or 11th century (Latin for “and the Son”) to change the creed's description of the procession of the Holy Spirit, which (among other things) caused the split between Rome and the Orthodox. The Protestants later just simply accepted (knowingly or unknowingly) Rome’s innovation. Living in a western Christian society (i.e., Protestant and Catholic), it is easy to ignore the fact that there is the original version of the Nicene Creed used by the Orthodox and the newer one used by Protestants and Catholics. With the surprising growth of Orthodoxy in the US (and online), at some point this will become clear to more people. In my opinion, the addition of the filioque was the cause of much of the Modalism in western Christianity, because the distinctions between the members of the Godhead/Trinity were obscured by its addition. The Orthodox church emphasizes the “three-ness” of the Godhead/Trinity more than Protestants or Catholics do (one of their theologians said “We do not believe in God Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.”). Orthodoxy also allows for the “Monarchy of the Father”, seeing him as the “source”. Obviously, this is more palatable to the LDS. I think the real problem for most LDS with the Nicene creed is its use of the phrase “one in substance”. In a religion that is so heavily materialistic that even Spirit is matter (D&C 131:7,8) this would seem to support the whole premise of Modalism. However, in the Orthodox church the phrase “one in essence” is used instead of “one in substance”, and I honestly can’t see how “one in essence” differs all that much from the LDS “one in purpose, thought, mission”, etc. I would submit that the really big difference between LDS and traditional Christian doctrine is NOT the Trinity/Godhead, but rather the LDS belief that man and God are “of the same species”. That difference has FAR more merit and weight than all of these silly Trinitarian battles combined….
Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Doesn't keeping his commandments require some effort or work on our part? Did Jesus say that we show our love for him by keeping his commandments because he really does want us to show our love for him...or did he say this as a statement with no expectations placed upon us? Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints refer to keeping his commandments as works...synonymous. They believe that as they keep his commandments...or do the works he taught us to do...then they are showing their love for him. It's not as complicated as one may think. "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."
IMO The things of god should not be a mystery. They should be understandable because God created all the laws of the universe and he want us to understand why he created this world for us. The more conflicting a doctrine like the trinity the more holes the scriptures themselves poke into it. God embodies justice, mercy, logic, reason and love but He has a body, He has many spiritual sons and daughters but only His son Jesus walked this earth with us. He was perfect and could act as the perfect sacrifice for all of us. We would never be complete without the price He paid to ransom us from sin. I felt a confused spirit as each one of those trinitarian creeds was read. When people say men created god I think of those creeds and see their point. It's almost as if the entire point is to be confusing. People are continually trying to rewrite god into something that they can use to gain power over others. The people at the time believed that a one god system was the new and shiny idea that could defeat the pantheon of gods. They wanted to be the sole preist/expert class that can run the verbal circles around their "ignorant" counterparts. So are LDS people christian? The answer to me is what does any "christian "do with what they know. If the whole purpose of your belief is to set yourself higher than others then the answer to me is - no they missed the point. If the purpose is to help those around you live better principles with the hope of Jesus in your heart then the answer is yes. When I joined the church at age 23 I had previously had no belief in Christ. My new friends taught of a gospel that was simple and solid and understandable. They brought me to love my Savior. They taught of a life that would have ups and downs but a goal of always coming closer to the Savior and Father. No member was getting any gain other than the thrill of showing another person the love they had for Jesus. I have been a member for 30 years including a 2 year stint where I left the church and chose to come back. I came back because ultimately the church doctrine was what allowed me to understand who my savior really was. The church membership appears to be drifting from solid and simple doctrines to follow the whims of the world. I pray for them to return.
Regarding the Trinity, how can someone "believe" something they don't understand? If most Christians don't understand the Trinity, they can't believe it, and thus, according to some evangelicals, aren't Christians.
I’ve heard Christians say that the councils didn’t decide the canon, but simply affirmed the self-evident authority and totality already there. I think that’s a lame and untrue answer. Plain and simple truths were lost because the keys of the priesthood were lost.
" a person who believes in Jesus Christ and follows his teachings" I'd say unequivocally yes, they are. They make it crystal clear that Christ is at the center of their beliefs. Anyone who pretends they are not, simply likes to create their own definitions to exclude those they don't agree with
To be fair, when you have GAs saying stuff like this: "No I don't believe in the traditional Christ. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times." - Gordon Hinckley It's understandable why mainstream Christianity thinks of Mormons as non-Christian, whether or not it's true.
“As a Church we have critics, many of them. They say we do not believe in the traditional Christ of Christianity. There is some substance to what they say. Our faith, our knowledge is not based on ancient tradition, the creeds which came of a finite understanding and out of the almost infinite discussions of men trying to arrive at a definition of the risen Christ. Our faith, our knowledge comes of the witness of a prophet in this dispensation who saw before him the great God of the universe and His Beloved Son, the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. They spoke to him. He spoke with Them. He testified openly, unequivocally, and unabashedly of that great vision. It was a vision of the Almighty and of the Redeemer of the world, glorious beyond our understanding but certain and unequivocating in the knowledge which it brought. It is out of that knowledge, rooted deep in the soil of modern revelation, that we, in the words of Nephi, “talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophesy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that [we and] our children may know to what source [we] may look for a remission of [our] sins”
“Are we Christians? Of course we are Christians. We believe in Christ. We worship Christ. We take upon ourselves in solemn covenant His holy name. The Church to which we belong carries His name. He is our Lord, our Savior, our Redeemer through whom came the great Atonement with salvation and eternal life.”
After seeking greater understanding through the Book of Mormon and the Bible conjoined, I have moved more towards trinitarianism. I very much see the father and the son as the same substance. They are of the same spirit and of the same purity and love. In fact, the doctrine of the Bible and the Book of Mormon is that all of us who become Christians are adopted as children of Jesus Christ. Therefore we can learn that the eternal father becomes Jesus Christ as we are given to him as his children. This doctrine is also reinforced in Isaiah, where the ancient church was said to have been put away to have lost all of her children. Likewise it will be for the modern day church that professes the name of Christ. My witness is that Jesus Christ is my eternal Father, and he has visited me with fire and with his spirit to give me the record of the Father and the Son just as promised in the Book of Mormon. His word is true, and God is so good. The only way we can wrap our heads around the trinitarian doctrine is not by reading men's attempted explanations and creeds, but rather through the gift and power of the Holy Ghost. We can learn from other words of God about how the Father is the greatest, the Son was condescended, and the Spirit is the life force of heaven.
Oh, Jeff Durbin....nevermind! (Bless his and Ben's hearts!) Yeah. We're saints. Just like the early followers of Christ. Maybe these folks who use Christian aren't the same....
Oh and I also have said that the evangelical version of heaven made god sound like a narcissist, I had to make my husband listen to that part hahaha so refreshing to hear you say what I have thought forever
I've learned to accept that other false religions don't want to call me a Christian to compare them... But I get the title... I am a disciple of Jesus Christ, the son of the living God 😎
Let’s say in 10 years some guy has a vision, claims to be a prophet, says the lds church has apostatized from the truth, calls them an abomination, then teaches a different view of god than the lds church teaches today. Could his group of followers accurately call themselves lds? If they did and went further to say that they were actually the only ones with the truth in the first place, wouldn’t you hope your lds posterity would correct them?
If you had used the term "Mormon" instead of "LDS", then my answer to your question would be "yep". The problem is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is an actual organization. We have records of the people who have joined the organization. Because of that, we can actually say whether or not someone is a part of the organization. Christianity and Mormonism as a whole aren't like that
God is capitalized in scripture to refer to Yahweh. All other gods are lower case as they are those given authority, including Pharoah. So it’s very possible that to become a “god” is simply to be given authority when we are fully ready to become like Him, in the far distant future of our eternal progression.
Within Christianity there's a separate but related correlation with regards to who belongs under the umbrella of the word catholic. The word is used within the Apostles and Nicene Creeds for instance, and it simply means "universal". So most branches of Christianity that adhere to those creeds reconcile themselves to be a part of the universal "catholic" church in some way. The problem is that, especially here in the Western world, the biggest and arguably most influential individual church is the Roman Catholic church, which, because of their size and influence, often just gets referenced as the "Catholic" church. This understandably leads to some confusion when using the term. The most common way this is distinguished to avoid confusion is by using a captial C when referring to Roman Catholicism and a lower case c when referring to the more broadly intended catholic or universal church. I think in a similar way, Christianity, as it came to define itself and existed from the time of Christ onward, can be designated with a capital C and under that designation, I'd say that most would be in agreement that Mormons don't fit into that category. However, in a more broad lower case c sense I think they absolutely fit, albeit with an intentionally heterodox view of Christ compared to the rest of Christianity. Hopefully, that all made sense.
I think another way this could be viewed is to understand that, in many ways, Mormonism is to Christianity what Christianity was/is to Judaism. They share common roots and use a lot of similar theology and terms, but for various resons, they came to be seen as distinct over time due to specific claims made by Christians that Judaism would completely reject. In a similar way Mormons, with their claims of a universal or total apostasy within Christianity that necessitated a new prophet, a restoration and additional scripture that is otherwise foreign to Christians, constitute something new compared to what came before. In this way, Mormons aren't any more Christian than Christians are Jewish.
Is God omnipotent? Yes! Then why can he not create his children with the capacity to become Gods. This doctrine only further exalts and engrandizes God. If Calvanist say no, then they are handcuffing and limiting God's power through their interpretation of the Bible, "Sola Scriptura".
Very well done Conner!!!!!!! Revelation 11 debunks two core beliefs other creeds believe, 1) that the Bible is closed, and 2) that our bodies of flesh and bones cannot enter heaven. The two prophets mentioned in Revelation 11, will yet ad three and a half years of additional scripture to the Bible. After being dead for three and a half days they come back to life and ascend into heaven per Gods command. I find it revealing that Emperor Constantine was accommodating to Christians after Christian scriptures were destroyed for ten years as a result of the edict of emperor Diocletian. All previous to Constantine emperors brutality persecuted the Christians, obviously as a result of being possessed by Satan, until enough clarifying scripture was destroyed so Satan could use emperor Constantine to confuse the people. From the early adherents Conner quoted, the lost scripture was the clarification of the nature of the Godhead, which they defined before the edict of Diocletian.
The Way was broken. All these xtian sects that exist today, except Mormonism, did arise from the fragments of the original followers of The Way. The apostasy was the bludgeon that broke that vessel. And here and there, throughout time, a shard of that vessel is built into a religion that claims Christianity and divine endorsement. The migrations of the Gospel to this continent before the apostacy ensured that the apostacy would never fully succeed. Eventually the apostacy apparatus went to sleep so to say, and Joseph Smith brought back The Way. But we call it something different nowadays... .
*Thanks, fascinating mythology mormons have. However, reality outside the thought cave is more advantageous for benefiting the future of the species as a collective.*
If one believes that "God" is an immaterial Essence outside of time and space with the sole power to create everything out of nothing, then the notion that a human, created out of nothing, could become another similar "God" is absurd. But if one rejects the doctrine that the resurrected Jesus has a "dual nature" and is the immaterial Essence at the same time, but has an ACTUAL Father who is a Being like himself, then they can begin to understand the Mormon doctrine of exaltation.
Mormon is a long used nickname. We don’t worship Mormon. The church’s official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Christ is in the name of the church. The church leadership call it Christ’s church. Yes it’s a Christian church.
Well if all people did was worship God and become one with him in heaven, then they are one with God meaning they are like God. Jesus commanded us to be one even as he (Jesus) is one with the father.
Calvanists..."We are right cause the Bible says so. You are wrong and going to hell cause you don't interpret the Bible correctly. We are the only ones that interpret it the right way, cause we are God's elect. Cause we say so" Sola Scriptura?
I go to Got Questions a lot to learn about the beliefs of other Christians. This video inspired me to look up their views about the origins of the Catholic church. The article I read there was just.....completely astounding to me. They trash Catholicism as a blending of Christianity and paganism. They put quotes around the word "conversion" referring to Emperor Constantine. They actually use the word "apostatizing" in reference to the Catholic church. But somehow........they still think the Trinity is legit??? Make it make sense! I'm just going to share some quotes from the article for anyone interested. "The Catholic Church proclaims itself to be the church that Jesus Christ died for, the church that was established and built by the apostles. Is that the true origin of the Catholic Church? "On the contrary. Even a cursory reading of the New Testament will reveal that the Catholic Church does not have its origin in the teachings of Jesus or His apostles. In the New Testament, there is no mention of the papacy, worship/adoration of Mary (or the immaculate conception of Mary, the perpetual virginity of Mary, the assumption of Mary, or Mary as co-redemptrix and mediatrix), petitioning saints in heaven for their prayers, apostolic succession, the ordinances of the church functioning as sacraments, infant baptism, confession of sin to a priest, purgatory, indulgences, or the equal authority of church tradition and Scripture... "For the first 280 years of Christian history, Christianity was banned by the Roman Empire, and Christians were terribly persecuted. This changed after the “conversion” of the Roman Emperor Constantine... Later, in AD 325, Constantine called the Council of Nicea in an attempt to unify Christianity. Constantine envisioned Christianity as a religion that could unite the Roman Empire, which at that time was beginning to fragment and divide. While this may have seemed to be a positive development for the Christian church, the results were anything but positive. Just as Constantine refused to fully embrace the Christian faith but continued many of his pagan beliefs and practices, so the Christian church that Constantine and his successors promoted progressively became a mixture of true Christianity and Roman paganism... "The Catholic Church disguises its pagan beliefs under layers of complicated theology and church tradition... "By blurring the differences and erasing the distinctions, the Catholic Church made itself attractive to the idolatrous people of the Roman Empire. One result was the Catholic Church becoming the supreme religion in the Roman world for centuries. However, another result was the most dominant form of Christianity apostatizing from the true gospel of Jesus Christ and the true proclamation of God’s Word."
I encourage you to do a deeper dive into why Protestant Christianity doesn’t accept Roman Catholicism as orthodox. The main difference is in authority. Scripture is the only sure unchanging word of God. It should be authoritative over man. As soon as any church allows the authority of man to overrule scripture they will wander and come up with all sorts of doctrines foreign to the Bible.
You should see how Got Questions verifies the Bible yet dismisses the BoM. Prophecy fulfilled that was foretold in Genesis, fulfilled in 1948 proves the Bible. Prophecy by Joseph wasn't fulfilled yet, so it's proven false with less than 200 years passed. Biased, not using logic.
@@teldyer4539 I actually commend the reformers for breaking the iron grip of the Catholic church, and it totally makes sense why, given this, you would be suspicious of authority other than the Bible. But I see the Trinity as just another error introduced by the rise of the Catholic religion. It seems odd to me that Protestants would feel the need to cling to the Athanasian creed and so fiercely reject other Catholic doctrines that originated around the same time. I suppose you would say that this particular doctrine is one they got right and is supported by the Bible. I honestly don't have a problem if you interpret the Bible in a Trinitarian way. We all have to square the circle of the One God but also three (or more) that the Bible seems to present. What I DO have a problem with is the refusal to accept that there can be more than one interpretation. If it were true, as the Athanasian creed states, that we could not be saved from Hell without believing its exact definition of the Trinity without deviating one inch to the left or right, then that very specific definition would have to be IN THE BIBLE EXPLICITLY. But it's not. There are multiple interpretations you can have based on the Bible alone and to say otherwise is extrabiblical.
@@amybaker1880 Oh I'm curious what prophesy in Genesis was that? They definitely have some bizarre takes when it comes to the LDS church. I do give them credit for admitting that the Johannine Comma was not originally part of the Bible though.
@@LindyLime Israel returning to their land was what they used to prove the Bible. Guess Moses was given thousands of years for his to be fulfilled, yet Joseph was a false prophet because things haven't happened yet that he said was true less than 200 years ago.
Great discussion - The God of this world, as self professed is satan, who does not have a body, parts, or physical existence. They follow after him, one day they will know this.
30:00 The persons of the Trinity being next to each other wouldn't, in and of itself, disprove Trinitarianism (although it would disprove modalism), but the fact that the Father would have a right hand for Jesus to be next to does, as within Trinitarianism the Father does not have a body and is an omnipresent spirit.
I'm a convert. I attended the Christian church (Disciples of Christ) growing up and was taught 3 separate beings. At least I never heard of a Trinity. I'll have to go check their definition... very interesting. I lose respect for those who attack with scriptures. It's Satans way I guess.
The bible gives exclusionary tests to determine is someone is actually Christian or not. So, to an extent, it is OK contrary to what Connor is saying here. He should really look and see what the bible says is Christian or not and go from there.
If Mormons believe: Christ is our brother Christ is progressing Satan is Christ's brother No. Christ is the very Eternal Father. Read the Book of Mormon. It's clear.
@l7846 Nephi, Abinidi and many other BofM prophets clarify it. Christ himself said I Am, which lead to his ultimate crucifixion. Abinidi was condemned and burned at the stake for claiming that God himself, would condescend and take upon himself flesh.
@@l7846And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. 2 And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son- 3 The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son- 4 And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth.
Does God still worship the God of his mortal existence? I ask because you stated that we will continue to worship God in the next life. It would stand to reason, then, that God would also worship another God.
@@jondxxxiii It's true. Otherwise tell me what's going to happen when my bishop finds out that I don't believe that. What's the consequence? How is it binding?
