Are we becoming Pagan? - Helen Dale | Maiden Mother Matriarch 19 

I like Helen. Super genuine, no bullshit, no nonsense. Just the facts. 👍

Helen Dale is brilliant

This was so delightful and informative, please have Helen back!

This is fascinating; Perry's cogent, straightforward exploration into feminism in general, with guests like Mary Harrington, Helen Joyce, and I can see a host of others I'm interested in, and this conversation with Dale in particular. I've scribbled down a list of books to order (Holland's "Dominion" was already on it but I'm bumping it higher now). I'm looking at the "likes" and number of comments, especially against the production value of this podcast, and I can imagine putting in so much work and getting these returns might be discouraging. Or maybe not, I don't know what should be expected. I deeply appreciate the value you've given to me, though. Thanks, Louise, for doing this work, both here on your own platform, and talking with others.

thank you for a wonderful guest...so interesting and educating. Thank you!!!!

WOW, thank you Louise. I’m not sure I quite understood everything but I LOVED this episode! Makes me want to learn more!

I would love to hear Helen's take on the preindustrial Chinese, Confucian bureaucracy and law.

Wow, what a great guest! Helen is an informative and straightforward presenter.

Fantastic conversation. Helen is amazing and the amount of knowledge (and recall) is incredible. The Rittenhouse case first got me interested in the legal process, as i became aware of the political battles within cases. also a great book- 'the tragedy of the Euro', depicting the growth of the EU (and german capitulation) as a conflict of visions between classical liberal elements and dirigiste forces. seems so much in modernity comes back to this battle that has many names and forms. interestingly, B. Constant's 2 type of liberty (collective+participatory vs individual+rights-based) seems to being being flipped across social media tribalism - whereby ceding to or joining collectives is seen as a form of protection as opposed to being honest and trusting the institutions to function in defence of individualism and/or free speech.

What an outstanding enlightening video. Thank you! Mrs. Dale, feel free to do more videos about classical Roman law!

Wonderful guest!

This was really enjoyable. Sad Europe will lose all of this history.

I was taught by Catholics in Ireland that Christians developed their own understanding of law that was not ancient Roman or Greek nor was it modern the common law of England, rather it was medieval and it was called the Natural Law. Best book on the matter E.B.F. Midgley : 'The natural law and International Relations.' I think Helen Dale has acquired her understanding in Scotland a distinctly Protestant country with educational failure at its core. Also E.B.F. Midgley also wrote the best book critical of political modernism called 'The ideology of Max Weber'. Weber of course wrote much about the history of Law, something Marx forgot to do. By political modernism we mean political philosophy as elaborated first by Hobbes culminating in the arch atheist Nietzsche. English intellectualism has ignored Midgley's books because he is a Catholic. I pity them. P.S. The books of Leo Strauss are also very good, especially the one on Hobbes and Locke, the flaw is they contain a detectable Jewish bias. No offence to Jews intended, Protestants being offended well tough luck.

We need more discussions like these. It was a fun ride.

This was absolutely fascinating

Amazing guest, Louise could barely get a word in lol

This was super interesting. Helen should really be a lecturer on these topics, if she isn't already.

I'm an Italian American who lives in New Jersey, I would not want to live in some analog of Pagan Roman society, my grandparents emigrated from the largely impoverished society that retained many of those ancient customs and attitudes. Italy is great, but not to provide a sociopolitical or cultural/religious template internationally for modern society, the Industrial Revolution as well as the laws, governance, and societal norms that facilitated that world-defining phenomenon emanated from England. That's just a reality, some defining aspects of the locale that coincided with the Revolution might have been incidental, but many or most were essential for that civilizational rebirth.

Both books wishlisted, they sound fascinating.

This is my favourite episode yet, and I’ve thoroughly enjoyed quite a few. Getting a copy of the book and my parents are doing the same !

I thoroughly enjoyed this! Thank you!

Very interesting! Thank you both

Great guest!

Fantastic insights, thank you for sharing.

Her substack is so good!

A really good one.

Superbly interesting and educative. I wish Helen Dale was employed by the U.K. government as an adviser on legal and constitutional matters.

So interesting

I'm glad you didn't go for a jingle with a drum beat like so many other channels that try to add some pizazz

For me, jury duty is so rare, I've only been asked once in 40 years

That was just super! I'd left subtitles on; the AI trying to make sense of properly pronounced Latin in an Australian accent was added hilarity. My extrapolation and inference: the Romans extending citizenship for tax reasons doomed the Empire by creating the conditions for religious lunatics to take it over just as the Roman Warm Period and "Halcyon Days" were coming to a natural conclusion and an immigration crisis was emerging. We introduced Civil Rights and tinkered with Immigration Law just as another Warm Period was coming along naturally and ending our "Halcyon Days" as an immigration crisis was emerging. The unintended consequences will see our analogue for Humiliores and Honestiores rock-up. If we implement that (Whatever 'that' proves to be) with eyes wide open, we might save ourselves. If we don't account for the unintended consequences of our previous unintended consequences, (The car-crash of "Liberal Facism"; "Regressive Progressivism"; "Intersectionality; and "Wokism"; etc. with NATURAL climate change and migration crisis) we won't.

Couple of brilliant people here, for sure, but it needs saying that the monotheism of Christianity and its precursors is not just historically significant but determinative in an evolutionary way, by bringing forth in the human spiritual makeup a cosmos with a single unrepresentable centre, whose image in the human being, is his and her own deepest nature and independent individuality.

We need to define what Roman is. Before Rome was christianised?

Excellent pod

From a technical view point sound is unbalanced, you are too high compare to your guest. And your guest should have a better mic (the logitech c920 does a good job for both sound and image for a reasonable price). I listened with my car's speakers and I really struggled (I am not native english so it doesn't help). And monitor your sound with studio monitor speaker or headset

I don't ussually like Helen Dale as I disagree with much of what she says about Australia, but this sounds interesting.

Love your voice my goodness...

This Jolly Heretic vid reminded me of this MMM: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-vMR8RjQlqHM.html

Great conversation. Really interesting ... BUT ... there are far too many problematic aspects of that New Atheism/ Christian/ Pagan paradigm to dive into here, so, in a word: Pinker. Three more: science reason humanism.

Are you not eliding different concepts of what it means to be a victim? You speak of the Stoics' position that being a victim did not improve the person. That's centered not upon others' view of the victim but of the character of the victim themself. Some Christians did and do believe the contrary to the Stoic position, to wit: suffering builds character, and to watch such as "Crossfit" and other athletic and military cults, it's got a pretty strong secular following, too. As to what being a voluntary victim means for others, it isn't irrational to regard someone who voluntarily undergoes harm as being committed to their position. That doesn't validate the position, of course, but as with sacrifice for one's nation, sacrifice for ones beliefs tends toward making those beliefs something worth rational consideration, though it's hardly dispositive. Beliefs that are less strongly held tend not to attract that same consideration. There are also involuntary victims: And as an attorney, you are very likely aware of the change in attitude concerning allegations of sexualized violence including rape or domestic violence. The treatment of complaining witnesses in such cases (at least in the jurisdictions I practiced in) was shoddy or worse when I began. It is obviously wrong to say "believe victims" tout court, but the fact that prosecutors provided support for complainants was a rational response to the shortcomings (to put it mildly) of the previous approach. Nobody ever asked someone who complained of being robbed at gunpoint whether they were making things up, or what they had done to attract the attention of criminals. As with many reforms, there are ways of going too far, as we see, but that is the way of reform.

Its called Apolloism.

hg

Helen clearly has great knowledge of roman history, Christianity and theology, which I respect greatly. HOWEVER she cannot generalise her knowledge of Christianity to Islam and islamic history, of which she clearly is not familiar with. Islamically enslavement is very much a legal status and has never been a natural one. Slaves could buy their freedom at any time regardless of gender, race or religion. Indeed there were many cases of freed slaves becoming high ranking generals within the Ottoman Empire. Furthermore no race is seen as inherently inferior, this has been explicitly made clear in islamic literature. One of the first people to become muslim and one of the most revered companions of the Prophet PBH was Belal, a freed slave. Belal also became the first muadhin (person to announce the call to prayer), again a very noble honour.

Interesting topic, but pagan does not equal Roman. That is a very Christian (and narrow way) of thinking and I do wish Christians would stop presenting them as synonyms (as in the title of this video). Paganism is any religion that was pre-Christian, or derived from Pre-Christian roots. If you want to draw similarities between all those pre Christian religions, fine, but there were are there differences as well.

The poor asians and their R's.. they should have gone with english common law.

I'm so confused about what this woman said about slavery in Christianity. As far as I am aware in Bible Jesus says - I freed you from slavery and you shall never be enslaved again. I am also sure that on this exact basis slavery was rejected in the U.S. - freedom, equality, and dignity are bestowed on all by virtue of being human, made in the image of God. In Galatians, the Apostle Paul reminds us that these rights are not earned but divinely ordained. Paul's understanding of freedom is not individualized license but the freedom to love and serve God and others.

Interesting subject, but an incredibly shallow and ill-informed discussion. Where to start? Paganisms and Christianitues are both many and various. The idea that Constantine brought uniformity is nonsense. Many scholars have written on the imperfect Christianisation of Europe, at all stages of the last rwo millennia. In many ways the saints are successors to pagan deities, and there were plenty of royal saints, and warrior saints. Trees - has Dale never heard of dryads, or the legend of Daphne? Society was never monolithic and we're not "reverting" to anything. Every generation discovers new and imperfect solutions to old problems.

Paganism approved gay marriage?

Jesus is a pagan myth of course.

Probably the worst conversation involving Louise Perry.

Great talk... Helen is whip smart.... Brilliant 👌

From chat gpt: No, China does not have Roman law. Roman law refers to the legal system developed in ancient Rome and later adopted and adapted by various countries in Europe. It is based on a collection of laws and legal principles that were codified and refined over centuries. China, on the other hand, has its own distinct legal system that has evolved over thousands of years. The Chinese legal system has been influenced by various factors, including traditional Chinese legal philosophy, Confucianism, socialist legal theory, and more recently, elements of civil law and common law systems. China's current legal system is based on a socialist legal framework with Chinese characteristics. It combines elements of civil law, which is based on written statutes and codes, and Chinese legal traditions. The legal system in China has undergone significant reforms and modernization efforts in recent decades, but it does not incorporate Roman law as its foundation.

Helen Dale has always seemed to know things others don't know, and after that unsubstantiated claim Christ was crucified for causing a row in the Jewish temple rather than for alleged insurrection, it is disappointing to discover why. Louise is such a patient listener.

The Quran’s Position on Slavery. Since slavery was deep-rooted in the seventh century, the Quran didn’t attempt banning it in one big swoop, it would have been impossible to give it up, instead it adopted a gradual tactic: first ensuring slaves have rights; owners were obliged to feed, clothe and allow them freedom to worship. Secondly, those who freed slaves are praised. It prohibited making Muslims slaves. Thirdly, certain atonements could be achieved by freeing slaves, all of which encouraged and improved the status of slaves. Moreover, the Quranic subtext of kindness, generosity and justice required its followers to see slavery as incompatible with Quranic justice, since it violated the concept of Human brotherhood and sisterhood: “If any of your slaves asks for an emancipation contract, and you see some good in them, draft it for them; and give them of the wealth that God has given you.” (Qur'an 24:33). Suwayd ibn Muqarrin reported: He had a slave girl and someone slapped her, so he said to him, “Did you not know that it is forbidden to strike the face? I was the seventh of my brothers during the lifetime of the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessing be upon him, and we had only one servant. One of us became enraged and slapped him, so the Prophet commanded us to set him free.” Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 1658 Grade: Sahih (authentic) according to Muslim Moreover, the Prophet (ﷺ) has explicitly stated as to how to treat the slaves. Abu Mas’ud al-Ansari reported: “When I was beating my servant, I heard a voice behind me (saying): Abu Mas’ud, bear in mind Allah has more dominance over you than you have upon him. I turned and (found him) to be Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ). I said: Allah’s Messenger, I set him free for the sake of Allah. Thereupon he said: Had you not done that, (the gates of) Hell would have opened for you, or the fire would have burnt you.“[4] “Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free.“[5] Narrated Al-Ma’rur: At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, “I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names.” The Prophet said to me, ‘O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothersand Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.’[6] Abu Huraira reported Allah’s Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: “When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:” i. e. a morsel or two”.[7] Narrated AbuDharr: “The Prophet (ﷺ) said: Feed those of your slaves who please you from what you eat and clothe them with what you clothe yourselves, but sell those who do not please you and do not punish Allah’s creatures.“[8] Indeed, Allah knows best. [1] Book 1, Hadith 56 [2] Ma’alim al-Sunan [3] Hashia ‘ala Musnad [4] Sahih Muslim, book 15, no. 4088 [5] Sahih Muslim, book 15, no. 4079 [6] Sahih Bukhari, vol 1, book 2, no. 29 [7] Sahih Muslim, book 15, no. 4096/4097 [8] Sunan Abu Da’ood, book 41, no. 5142

Germanic "sacral significance of trees" is common to some enviros? Oh please. Do you not know what trees actually do? With CO2? Do you not understand how ecosystems function, with trees at the apex? You really think we are all "worshipping" trees? Come on. Couldn't we have a serious discussion about this? How about you start with finding some actual enviros who have said or believed ANY of this? And to what extent did that actually influence political demands and policies.

I was hoping this would be interesting, but this guest of yours is a complete racist. She starts by picking on people for not being able to pronounce things in a completely different language than their own. And then she goes and insults a legal system that has worked for centuries and was now suffering only because of colonization. She is a racist and frankly Louise, you come off as racist for showing her here.