I can say as a drummer that the drums analogy Aris made is 100% true.I've been playing both drums and Tekken for years and if one wants to learn either thing,you can have a near identical approach.Also,great parry at 3:30.
Ken I disagree. I played guitar, upright bass, and violin, and I'd say that really getting a hold of Tekken was harder for me. It's probably a person-to-person thing.
Ken You don't have to beat someone else with how well you play an instrument. Becoming a top player is truly hard and so is mastering an instrument, but you're just talking out of your ass.
Ken your comment is only true if you're referring to casual games. Tekken and other fighting games are competitive games which actually require a lot of time and practice to even become mediocre at it. The time and effort you'd have to commit to compete at a high level would be the same for mastering an instrument professionally.
I can't speak for James Chen, and I can't give his reasoning, but I will give my own for why I agree with both of you. My issue with Tekken, as an old fighting game player, but a relatively new Tekken player, is in the homework load. In fighting games, there are two worlds of play. There's the world where both players know and can perform all the techniques available to their character as well as what techniques are at their opponent's disposal. That's the "real" game. That's playing as intended and it's a fascinating and enriching competitive activity. Then there's Scrubland, where either or both players don't know all of that information and so their decisions rely to at least some degree on guessing. The more guessing one side uses, the more random and uninteresting responding to those guess decisions is. This is the land casual players live in, and 95% of professional game journalists. So, if your goal is to play the "real" game, you have to absorb all that relevant data. The quantity of that data is a barrier before you play the real game of decision making between you and your opponent. Now if you take a classic game like Super Turbo, there is a relatively small homework load. There's a manageable number of characters that themselves have only a small number of unique moves a piece. You can get a good grasp on the roster and how to defend against each character in a day. That doesn't make you good at the real game mind you, it just means you can be playing the real game very quickly after starting. Then we have Tekken. King alone has more unique moves on his list than the entire Super Turbo roster combined. There's more than twice as many characters as Super Turbo, they all have a MUCH larger movelist, and perhaps most importantly, the blocking system is different in such a way that you need to be familiar with the specific attack animations of each opponent. In Super Turbo, the act of blocking is pretty universal no matter who you're facing. With a small number of instant overheads as exceptions, crouch blocking handles everything except jump ins and throws (with throws being more powerful than in tekken to adjust to the power of blocking). In Tekken, the mere act of basic defense must be adjusted for each matchup, as each character can have unique high/mid/low strings. All together, the sheer quantity of necessary information required builds a HUGE barrier before you're actually playing the real game of decision making. This is where I think your comparison is wrong Aris. This barrier before you're doing the actual activity you want to be doing, the decision making game, is absolutely not universal amongst activities. You can learn to play a song on a guitar MUCH faster than you really know what you're doing in a Tekken match against a random opponent. You can absorb the totality of relevant information in most fighting games significantly faster. All of this is of course exacerbated by Tekken's misleading move lists and lack of frame data. So if any of this is what he was talking about, I think he makes a seriously great point and if possible design should do what they can to lower this barrier to entry. With a wall THIS BIG in front of playing, Tekken can never hit the mainstream success other series' get. Most players will give up LONG before they reach even a basic mid tier competency level. Now where I agree with you Aris is in attitude. It's not like James Chen didn't know all this before he started playing. I'm 1/100000000000th the player he is and I certainly don't think I'm speaking the grand secrets of the universe here. The entire list of points I made above are an excellent set of reasons.............to decide Tekken isn't a worthy investment of your time. If you decide to play it though, knowing all this, it's beyond useless to spend your energy focusing on complaining about it.
As someone who is new to Tekken 7, and the Tekken community in general, I feel as though your description of the core fundamentals of the game where two individuals understand the highest learning threshold for the game, and the actual game of Tekken gets to finally be actualized because both opponents understand every mechanic of the game, every nuance there is, every element that could benefit or hinder a player, based on the character match up. You are absolutely right about having huge a huge barrier setup. I'm coming from a 2D background myself, much like James Chen here, except I am not nearly as seasoned. I am what they would call an '09'er or an '08'er, under the running meme, or dead meme now, that I began my fighting game career with the release of SFIV. I never had interest in Tekken. I played Tekken 6, returned it, and hadn't given Tekken a serious chance until the release of Tekken 7 last year. I play Lee Chaolan. I love this character, despite tier list, which in my opinion, isn't really as relevant until I am able to get to, like you said, 'the real game'. Recently, I had fought a King player who was a Vanguard, I was a Warrior. He was doing Oki setups that I had no idea how to get out of. I fought him 8 straight matches, I think I only won about 3 of them. But his Oki setups would net him at least half my health. I did my research after the battle. I went to training to figure out King's moves, I actually HAD to run through the movelist, simply because I had no idea what sequence of buttons he was pressing to get this setup, let alone the move he used to secure the damage. I found them after 20 minutes of research, then I had to replicate the setup, then find out how he consistently did this setup to me. Silly me, not aware that I was not using all of the games mechanics to my advantage, I could've simply rolled to move away from the setup, didn't even matter the direction either, left, right, it whiffed. Not only did I find that I could evade the attack, but I could punish with roll-wakeup 3. This is exactly what you're talking about, with this barrier. Someone like you would probably know to do this, but someone whose brand new to Tekken? If you ave no prior Tekken knowledge, you're more than likely only learning 'your' characters moves, then it's off to online mode to figure out how to fight, in general, and the crash course of fighting scrubby tactics online is way faster than learning every move individually in training alone, because at some point, in training you won't be creative enough to figure out the subtle nuances of every character, you can replicate the moves, but not their most optimal ways of use. I am currently sitting at Vanquisher with my Lee.
The real game you describe is solely reserved for pros. And even pros need notes and coaches. Part of Tekken is playing a game about knowledge, and learning on your toes. You don't actually have that many options. Try ducking, try SS try interrupt, some of these options are pretty clear in the animations. Tekken is about long sets and learning. Then there's the next level of conditioning...
One of the huge misunderstanding about Tekken is that you need to dedicate yourself on labbing and knowing the movelist in order to do well which in my opinion is not that much of a problem. But personally, a good player is a player that has good fundamentals. Not just Tekken in general but every other fighting games. Invest your time on learning the basic universal mechanics such as low parry, backdash, sidestep, throw breaks, how to get up from the floor and etc. You can stick to 5 moves and only know how to do 1 combo but if your fundamentals are top notch, winning isn't that far off. Now, these basics aren't teach via ingame which make new players being overwhelmed by the sheer amount of movelists in practice mode. Learning them is at the least of your worries because knowing how to utilize them and defend against is a lot more crucial than knowing the entire movelist just to know which move would land. That's the thing with Tekken because Tekken has a lot of mechanics to learn. But some newcomers didn't know them due to no prior knowledge or tutorial to teach them.
Coffee Milk if I learnt every chars moves it would take forever coz each string has variables. What you need to learn is abusable strings opponents use more than others. Learn a game plan against certain chars. There’s so much info online if you’re struggling look it up and adjust accordingly, this was my first real tekken (I took it seriously), I’ve been playing since launch and the satisfaction you get from making a read or having certain knowledge is a lot better for me than when I used to play SF and bait an EX DP
imo you have to ”practice“ so much shit its more like studying. there are a lot of games where you just need to learn your combos some set ups and than all you gotta do is play. not tekken though. if you wanna be the best in tekken i‘d advise you to straight up read every characters frame data while your waiting for the bus.
@@ICA_Ghost yeah fucking hate reading frame data and labbing in general. I will immediately go through rank and just play the damn game. Even deathmatching characters that I dont get to usually play. So if theres a move that I think is too good(launches or does really good damage) and I want to know if its launch punishabe, I just whip out an electric after a block
My problem with James Chen is hes a well known popular FGC figure. If he says Tekken is too hard! alot of people will listen and not even bother to try. I used to read his guides on CVS2 a super hard game back in the day ive no idea what hes thinking to be honest.
If James Chen saying Tekken is hard to play is what's keeping people from playing the game, then this game is not for them. Go anywhere on the internet, ask about Tekken and everyone will tell you that it's an extremely hard game. So by that absurd logic, no one would be getting into the game, which clearly is not the case.
Tekken is a hard game in terms of keeping up with situations mid match in terms of learning the game i think tekken is the most fun. I never had so much fun doing combos in tekken i just be feeling god liek.
Learning any fighting game is hard. The difference between them all is how rewarding they feel to you for time invested at the end of the day. Tekken 7 has no true comeback mechanics. Rage is balanced in this game. Both Rage Drives and Rage Arts are fair and can be beaten if you predict correctly and don't go on autopilot. Combine that with the immense amount of depth in the movement system and neutral game and the reward is great. Street FIghter 5 right now has no defensive options and a ton of bullshit like 6 frames of input delay, virtually everything except for sweeps being + on block, the most fucked up hitboxes in any fighting game to date, and certain V-Triggers being actual comeback buttons. There is very little reward when you spend the entire match outplaying an opponent and then he gets one lucky confirm into V-Trigger and does a TOD on you, robbing you of all that hard work you did.
Scoot Hayabusa I've never heard anyone specifically single out Tekken as too hard, not on the kappa/tekken subreddits, any fg forum or twitter. Tekken is hard in the same way the fg genre as a whole is hard. I'd even argue that T7 is the most accessible Tekken has ever been without sacrificing any depth. Chen is crying like this game was made to torture players. He tweeted that he experienced emotions he's never felt in his entire fg career & that improving at Tekken is an insurmountable task.
Great video, as someone who plays guitar, drums and fighting games I agree 100%. most things in life require practice. especially if you want to level up your game.
Also bothered me when he said the FGC would die if SF V died. Like come the fuck on James all these damn games out here and we just have to worship SF or nothing at all.
H e retracted that statement and said that it wouldn't die but it would stop growing at the rate that it is. Because no other game has as much mainstream appeal as street fighter does right now the growth will slow down. He also said that its SFV needs to live until another game is big enough to take its place.
I read that 75% of SF5's player base that bought the game on launch day do not play the game anymore online. I think the game is already dead to a large number of SF fans/loyalist. Major tournaments are the only thing keeping the game relevant.
I'm with you on that but clearly Capcom has learned nothing if Marvel Infinite is any indication...they dont give a shit about the people who arent necessarily into the competitive scene.
All games are hard but the problem with Tekken before 7 was that it wasn't easy for new players to find ppl near the same skill level. It was hard for new ppl to enjoy the game playing against 10+ yr veterans. T7 brought more ppl in and helped the scene a lot
This game invokes salt/raw emotion more so than any other i find. Can't give james shit for losing his cool. He's playing well just needs encouragement that's all. He coul've won if he didn't let the previous round get to him.. I feel that's what's missing from veterans is the encouragement side in tekken. Peeps are so ruthless i love it but dang it just makes things harder sometimes.
I think James Chen wanted to pick up Tekken expecting to be a tournament level player right away because he thinks he has legacy skill from all the fighting games he's played, but he's bitch-made.
yellow5 Is Drag his highest rank? Because I'm Vanguard with Steve and a newbie to Tekken, labbing it out then testing the waters against others is the best thing you can do in this game really. He needs to figure that Tekken takes much more time compared to other fighting games.
and it`s easy to realise that, almost every high level tekken player I know plays only tekken, they don`t have time to learn other fighting games, of course that there are exceptions but the vast majority plays tekken exclusively. Even Aris said that on the vid, you can get rusty even by playing a couple of non fighting games.
yellow5 is it a learning curve from 2d to 3D? I had no problem playing things like MvC, SF, DB:FZ, Blaz, etc when they first come out. But till this day, I'm still struggling with T7. I'm still enjoying it, but I can't wrap my brain around the spatial thought process. I keep forgetting that left and right punches/kicks replace L/M/H punch/kicks.
Sometimes it's also the "I wanna win and get my awesome rank up" attitude which I regretfully have that I need to work on I lose a lot but I think so much about my rank and how I am all like "FUCK I GOT FUCKING DEMOTED SHIT" shit like that I hope you guys understand:/
MrChach1ng I also do that in Tekken. I just stick to Player match now, less stressful and I'm more focused on improving than getting promoted or demoted.
MrChach1ng I'm the same as you man, when I see the promotion or demotion banner I choke so easily, at this point I just stick to player match in hopes of finding a high skill player who won't roast me when I ask for help lmao.
Tekken IS much harder, at least when it comes to a technical/execution perspective. Take a look at the ridiculous setlists, which only grow bigger with each title, not to mention characters that change styles mid fight. A lot of what sustains a good match in this game is good use of dial-a-combo and juggle, and both are intertwined. It almost feels like you should choose and focus on a single character for the rest of your life, because of how much it demands of you as a player. Just because Jchen has been around since forever, doesn't mean he still won't get pissed by this. A fact can still be upsetting after all
3 bar, PS4, and before the input delay patch. U know how much delay that is? It's almost impossible to block a snake edge on reaction under these conditions especially as a new player. It will make things seem more difficult than it is. I think this is something James Chen should clarify.
Being good at Tekken is incredibly hard.It's much easier if you pick certain characters because of all the cheap gimmicks and tools they have but even then,when you makenit to a certain lvl,there's no way you can progress like that.The competition is too battle hardened.Plus the risk of demotion right off the bat at certain lvls just promotes the win or you're trash mindset.I think that Kazuya sums it up best when he says "A fight is about who's left standing and nothing else." ~Kazuya for prez 2021
To be fair, the context of James`s frustration was that he was trying to block low, but the input lag made it so he couldn't block quick enough. This is something that can upset anyone regardless of difficulty or experience level.
Tons of context missing here. The tilting is about the game's shitty netcode, not the fact it's hard. I know he's said that occasionally, but this instance was about the lag and how he was trying to block the low and couldn't because of it.
what makes Tekken more difficult to me is that you need a good knowledge of the match ups. Like there has been too many times where i have used the wrong punish and that does get frustrating but that said the game is really fun to play.
Tekken is way harder than other fighting games. Like he said Chen has a lot of experience. If he says it is overly complicated then you don't have to take it as fact but that is an opinion with some sort of authority. In other fighters kof13, bb,gg street fighter you can just play the game. You can "just play Street Fighter" and be fine with buttons. In Tekken you have to study hundreds of moves for each character. (At least according to Aris in another video on here where he teaches a guy how to punish) In other fighters you can learn what is generally safe, what's unsafe and be fine. In Tekken some characters are actually fucking kof or street fighter characters and they play differently. You can't just learn Tekken. Ive played instruments. They aren't carefully designed to be as complicated as possible like Tekken. The barrier to learning an instrument is physical and it's unlimited what you can do to solve a problem or accomplish. Not the case in Tekken.
My first tekken. I think without Aris my skill level would be much lower. Went to vindicator with master raven but getting my ass kicked quite hard there. gotta practise more
For me, my first tekken was 5, i think i either played Kazuya the most, sometimes bryan, then in Tekken 6 i played Law, Feng, Raven, Lars, and Bryan, could do some cool combos with all, then i played Devil Jin, Lars, Feng Wei, Bryan, Jinpachi, Heihaichi, and some others, James Chen needs to start out with something easy and work his way up from easy to experience, that's what i did
I lied to my (upcoming) band & said I played drums before, & sat down & played Chemicals Between Us by Bush. My hi-hat was on the right & my setup was all odd, but I sat down & played it on my first try at drums. My first 20 tries at Tekken have been complete obliteration. I think the breakthrough point where you are satisfied with what you're doing is different.
Good description. I can get into any FPS game and own kids all day, but coming to Tekken I've needed to practice and practice and without Aris' help I'd be fucked. I still suck, but practice helps.
jian hans 佐藤 Lots of people really didn't like Tag2 & having to learn 2 characters. Which is weird cuz you'll hear many swear by how Tag1 is the most fun & tag features are still hot shit in 2D at least
if you can draw a circle with your left hand and triangle with your right hand at the same time. I think tekken would be easier. because in tekken you know how to do the move but your brain need to learn the rhythm of the game it not just smashing it about timing and separate your left hand from your right hand.
Tekken is the only fighting game that makes me feel like I haven’t learned anything or gotten better. And I still play it. But it’s also the only one that doesn’t really upset me when I lose because I know I suck at it.
Honestly unless youve been playing tekken since the first or at least 3 youre gonna have a hard time learning. I literally spent hours just trying to move. Not an exaggeration. No fighting game has made me spend time just to figure to move fast. The fact that majority fighters use an alternative controller specifically in tekken and not in any other fighting game should show just how difficult it is
I play tekken, Doa, street fighter, injustice, and mortal kombat. Im good at all those games but damn street fighter is so hard to get good at. In tekken you can spam death fist and demo man and still win the match. In sf5 its hard to get inside and do damage.
its not much harder than other fighting games but theres no other fighting game where you have to learn so much shit regarding frame data and hit-/hurtboxes... wich u gotta look up online.
Without factoring in SFV's other issues, James also raged a few times on Unchensored about how cruel SFV is when you lose, points lost etc etc so perhaps too much time spent on the rage machine that's SFV means James way to stressed about winning/losing then just relaxing and learning and having fun.
Being a new player, the hardest part to me is feeling like I'm getting put in a vortex just for blocking. Idk if there are perfect timing things to do to get out of pressure but in most fighting you don't have to worry about blocking highs mids and lows all in a block string and guessing wrong does 60 damage.
Myles Pressley Tekken is very centered around knowing matchups. The best way to defend is to know what moves and strings the opponent has. You also have to know how yo punish after blocking a string. Otherwise you'll inevitably get hit for a huge combo
Myles Pressley worst part is mashers who just take their fist and slam into a controller constantly. Though with that you can try to learn to back dash or side step slower moves they may pull out. An easy way to get out of pressure is to let them wail on you for a round and see what they do, do they like to go highs and mids even if they dont hit at all? Do they like to spam jabs then go for a low move? Or do they like to mash all kinds of attacks then punish you with a throw? If someone constantly puts pressure like a dumbass rather than pressuring with both attacks and no attacks, then it's usually one of those. Best advice I can give that covers all three is to predict, throws are countered with 1 or 2 so other than that you can wait for a high frame move while teching throws and punish them for stupidity.
Yes I have heard that you have have to learn every single character in a way, but even though you know the characters, there are still crazy mix ups just on block opponents. Like Leo as that block string as has three options afterward. high, medium, and low. even though I "know" what they are, guessing wrong can suck. I still know it is doable to learn all the match ups, but tekken is still a way harder fighting game than most because of the amount of characters, moves and ways you can dmg an opponent. I also play Yoshi and Paul as my starter characters.
He had multiple opportunities to kill him; the missed low block was the least of his problems. But he's too much of a noob to understand what's even going on.
All fighting games are hard but Tekken is more infuriating to learn than most fighters because it has a lot of things that really fuck up newcomers. Fake combos are really stupid if you are a low level player. If you and your friend are both low level and you beat him with fake combos and then take them online you will get bodied and wonder why they can block mid combo. Filling up a character's movelist with a bunch of useless shit is stupid for new players because they think they need to use every move. Most fighting games only have the meat and potatoes in their move lists while Tekken has the meat, potatoes, fork, knife and the fucking napkin in their move list. Most moves are extremely situational and that can be daunting for a new player. A lack of combo meter mid match is stupid too and fake combos wouldnt be as annoying if they had a black beat like Guilty Gear does. Its hard like every fighting game but its more infuriating than Marvel or SF
SF Combos are executional harder than tekken. But the mind game was harder in tekken because its 3d and each character has tons of moves, IMO. i played both games and love them. but i am doing better in tekken than Sf.
Allan Yang You gotta find her weak spots, once you fight against her enough you'll notice she's very unsafe and easily punishable. With that in mind, she can be dangerous if you're not quick on your toes. :)
Not even a fan of Aris personally but the way he analyzed it really put it into a great perspective. You can be the best at executing combos but once that pressure is on you begin doubting your abilities and in turn your performance drops. What separates a technically skilled player from a pro is the ability to work under pressure, I believe.
I remember when I first start at T5 (well, I played T3 in the arcade too), I was like 10% win ratio for the first 100~200 games, lol, .... but I guess you just have to keep playing ...
The main thing that James has said is that he's the type of player that has to play a LOT in order to maintain what he learns and grow. He doesn't play much, though. IDK what he does when he's not streaming but whatever it is it's taking away time from Tekken and other fighters. His frustration is valid, IMO, and his history doesn't nullify that. Circumstances change. Who knows if that yell of anguish ALL rooted in just Tekken, multiple fighters, or something in his life in general? IDK his life story but shit had to have changed between his prime back in the day to now. I don't think he has the same confidence he used to have.
B Lew yeah but he said tekken isnt harder than anything else that's actually hard. Sf is straight up easy. So its not able to be compared which is why he compared it to guitar or drums :)
he made a point that sf was hard too so that negates that argument. I agree... I have never played tekken and wanted to play this game really bad, but I've found that now I haven't even played it in over a month, while I keep coming back to sf5 (even usf4). this thing is straight up hard (pause)
It's just sad, James does not know that to learn Tekken is to learn about the lore. Knowing the Mishima's back story will help in executing most of the moves. This comment looks like a wind up for a amazing joke but it's not. The Mishima's (From Heihachi, Kazuya, Jin and later Jinpachi) are all oppressive characters both canon wise and gameplay wise. This is made obvious by game design by the "wave dash". Not all characters can do this and gives the Mishima's a somewhat unfair advantage. The art of wave dash will ultimately teach the player how this game plays. It's principle is to advance, confuse and destroy your opponent.
People need to accept the fact that James Chen is a medium level player at best. He only has done two real things of note. First was his early combo videos that were revolutionary for the time, but there weren't many combo videos back in the day. Secondly is his commentary, which isn't great, but he was an early commentator when streams were new and was able to continue it and get paid to travel all over because of it. But as a player, he's very average. I have played him in Sf2, his main game, but even after a few months I was able to beat him easily (videos are in my channel). So he has some credibility, but not for the reasons he wants you to believe. Videos like this solidify this.
Pretty wild because I've watched James' Focus Attack videos on steps to learning Fighting games. I've applied that to Tekken and it's helped me greatly. Maybe he should take his own advice.
Tekken demands more recognition of moves when players fish for combos or hits to change pressure. Go back to any non sidesteppy game and you'll realize how much faster even SFIV is. Very different breeds.
Doesn't he have nearly an exclusive 2-D background. The transition from 2-D to 3-D can be kind of jarring. And the Tekken is so based on movement and use of the 3-D field that it's even more difficult for someone to get a solid grasp on. I'm coming from a DOA and Virtua Fighter background and I'm having difficulty with Tekkens movement. That's just my two cents
Shifting from 2D to 3D is nuanced and harder than going in fresh as you have lots to unlearn. James has talked about that and how making that adaptation is difficult. 3D fighters are typically more nuanced in matchup and frame data then most. So many moves and tricks to learn, it easy to see how it can be overwhelming
