Arm Bend in the Snatch & Clean: It May Not Be an Error 

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Greg is the GOAT of instructional content in WL. I swear I'd be so f***ing injured and also shit(tier) at lifting when I didn't have a coach w/o him making this stuff avail. Content marketing pro, and an OG one at that!

He’s very wise

Usually it can be attributed to how they learned, i.e. some may have developed the habit as kids and never corrected because it wasn't causing a problem. But also, even with apparently normal proportions, variations in grip width and timing etc. will affect where the bar contacts, and bending is usually an unconscious reaction to that.

To some extent, you're screwed... there unfortunately are effects of proportions that can't be eliminated. The early shrug is one way, and also really making sure you're staying over the bar long enough before opening the hips. I would also make sure the way you're holding the bar overhead itself isn't a problem that's making the position worse than it needs to be, and work on wrist mobility & strength to see if you can keep a wider grip even if not as wide as ideal. Hand/wrist overhead - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-JPT-t-p2L-c.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tB38Y0jMCjs.html Wrist strength/mobility - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Wvv60R691ks.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-6mLxoraF1jY.html

@@CatalystAthletics Wow! I couldn't be more surprised with your response. Thank you so much for taking the time to really help me. I'll try all of those things! Mr. Everett, I hope you have an amazing week. Thank you once again!

Yes, try the shrug described in the video, but also accept the very real possibility you're not going to have a perfect snatch, and just work on performing as well as you can with what you have to work with - you'll make a lot more progress that way than trying to find tricks to mitigate the problem because there's really very little you can do - but you can still snatch really well if you just keep chipping away at it.

It's C - more part of the transition from the body lifting the bar up and the arms moving the body down, and it's more just a natural part of the arm motion than an isolated/intention action in and of itself. Here's a video explaining - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-otTTJK_jYn8.html

@@CatalystAthletics Thank you Greg!

Yes. Some arm bend is always preferable to smashed gonards. Re grip, you have to find the balance between the pull, turnover and rack position, i..e. you can't compromise any one of those too much to improve another. Do make sure you're staying over the bar long enough also. See the following - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k9XcAZujgKk.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rJ6dZgUQzcs.html ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-G8IDYxaBuec.html

I did a bad job explaining that part. More accurately, the more vertically-oriented your extension, the more force will be supported directly by the arms, relative to a more hyperextended hip finish; but also, a more hip-dominant pull will tend to actually impart less vertical force on the bar and create less upward momentum and elevation, which means that something that could disrupt elevation (e.g. the arms re-extending) will have less of an effect on the lift overall.

Isn't the goal to create upward momentum and elevation of the bar through vertical extension? In what situation would a hip-dominant pull be preferred?

You can never have actual vertical extension - a vertically extended, straight body will mean a forward imbalance of the bar-body system. Hip/leg dominance will be dictated by a given lifter's strengths and weakness, which are at least in part dictated by proportion - for example, Asian lifters will tend to be more leg dominant due to shorter legs and longer torsos, while European lifters will lean more toward a balance of legs and hips due to more balanced proportions, etc. A more hip dominant pull doesn't mean you're not creating upward acceleration and elevation, it just means that you will produce somewhat less ultimate height, which certain lifters can manage.

Got it. Thanks!

Catalyst Athletics its really tough for me. I have a very slow pull when lifting bar off the ground and start to explode with my legs around mid shin. Is this okay? The problem I see is that I am not exerting as much force on the bar theoretically. Also, I seem to cut my pulls short and use my athleticism to get under the bar. It works till 225lbs, but after that it's a bail. My front squat max is 305 lbs. What drills can I work on that will maximize my pull with full extension?

You'd potentially get that extra speed in the body during that moment of slack, but that doesn't necessarily (and likely would not) translate into actual bar speed once the slack is taken up. You can run at a parked car as fast as possible to try to start pushing it, but that running speed doesn't instantly transfer to the car's motion - you just come to a sudden stop and have to restart force generation. Even if it did, the difference you're talking about is probably negligible and not at all worth trying to turn that into an actual technical strategy.

Wider grip, using the shrug I talk about in the video potentially, but also it may be an issue of timing, i.e. you're initiating the second pull too soon, or allowing too much distance between your legs and the bar prior to contact. See if this article helps - www.catalystathletics.com/article/125/Hips-Meet-Bar-Bar-Body-Contact-in-the-Extension-of-the-Snatc/

Catalyst Athletics I moved my grip out and now I am 5' 10" with a collar-to-collar grip. It works and the bar sits right in my hip but I will have to work more on my lockout because that wide of a position isn't comfortable at the top. I am also going to work on the shrug/lat squeeze you mentioned and see how that goes. Thanks for the help.

If you're that wide overhead, that's probably not going to work - it sounds like you have really long arms and/or a short trunk. I think you'd be better off keeping the previous grip and working on timing, bar proximity and a little shrug - you only need to contact 1" higher - doesn't need to be a dramatic difference. I think you're going to run into more problems due to less overhead stability.

Catalyst Athletics I probably should note that my previous grip was only an inch shy of the collars so it isn't a massive change, it just feels more awkward, probably somewhat because it is new. I am definitely going to try the shrug you were talking about as well, once I can get back to the gym.

Update After one month, I kept my grip the same to slightly narrower, and started adding the little shrug and squeezing my lats through the pull and I am making contact where I should be. I don't have anymore pain and my form seems to have improved significantly based on what some people have told me.

Bar should not contact that high... should be in the crease of the hips. Grip width should be set to achieve that unless that's impossible to due unusual proportions. I don't see how "pushing the bar away" would allow for relaxed arms since that's actively extending the arms. See these for more info on the topic - Snatch grip width - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ICU0v9djhCk.html Bar contact / proximity - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-npdlzx3dem4.html and ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-k9XcAZujgKk.html Arms keeping bar close in pull under - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-UoCZhN4mdTg.html And this on arm bend generally - www.catalystathletics.com/article/1904/Arm-Bend-in-the-Snatch-Clean-Its-Still-Not-the-Solution-to-/

If by "invalid" you mean illegal in competition, no. If you mean a missed lift, no - as long as it's within the parameters explained here.

@@CatalystAthletics That is what I meant (ilegal in competition). Thanks for your reply, cheers.

It means they're reliant more on hip extension than leg extension when lifting the bar... Boyanka isn't particularly hip-dominant. Look for lifters who lean/hyperextend extra far bar in the pull, tend to have softer legs in the finish, and often jump slightly backward.

@@CatalystAthletics How about Muattar Nabieva? Chen Guiming jumps back, but she doesn't seem to match the rest of the description. Being able to watch someone who's an example would go a far way for me. And thank you for answering all these questions - it's amazingly helpful.

Or Hou Zhihui?

@@daviddreisigmeyer726 Zhihui is a better example

Millennials are anyone born 1981-1996, Lü, ILya, and Klokov are all millennials. What does being a millennial have to do with anything?

Hold the bar in the same place.... the only way that would happen is if you're gripping the bar in a different position with and without straps... and/or you're holding the bar differently in your hand with straps, e.g. your hand is more open. Should be the same with or without straps.

Looks like that's changing more and more, bud

Well, Jessica Lucero still does that bend shit...

Actually it has absolutely nothing to do with leverage, but you're correct that in theory, relaxed, long arms will produce the optimal result, which I covered in the video. HOWEVER, I would disagree completely that this necessarily and always trumps the benefit of a more advantageous point of contact with the body (more so in the snatch than in the clean - I didn't say the bar had to contact the hips in the clean, and disagree that it does). You're wrong too that length of arms exclusively dictates where the bar contacts the body - that is one factor, along with grip width, length of torso, the timing of the second pull, and tension in the upper back. But UNINTENTIONAL and slight bending of the arms is present in a great many elite weightlifters, so to claim it is definitely and invariably a significant problem is simply inaccurate. Sounds to me like you're misunderstanding my points and conflating my opinions with those who want an intentional and significant bend of the arms to enforce bar contact with the hip even in the clean, which is not at all what I've said. Regarding Vardanyan, first, a single elite weightlifter isn't proof or disproof of anything - you can find exceptions to literally any, even the most fundamental, rules/concepts of lifting among the best lifters of the world. Vardanyan had extremely peculiar technique in a number of ways, and it clearly was effective for HIM, which in no way proves it would be effective for anyone else (interestingly, when his son Norik moved to Armenia, they changed his pull technique from something that resembled his father's to a more upright posture throughout...). BUT, take a closer look at Vardanyan the elder on the day he did his legendary 405 total, and you'll see he bends the arms slightly in both lifts. Again, we're talking about a natural and slight bend of the arms, which nearly always occurs in the absence of active elbow extension, as studied and known at least by the Soviets for decades. Here are some photos for you to see it - www.catalystathletics.com/images/vardanyan/vardanyanSnatch.jpg / www.catalystathletics.com/images/vardanyan/vardanyanClean.jpg

i didnt say arms exclusively. Vardanyan had low contact because of super long femur. And as told by klokov and Riggert arms straight and relaxed but elbows not locked out.

Seems to me you're not entirely sure what you're arguing. All good coaches teach long, relaxed arms BUT that does not preclude the kind of natural, slight bend in the arms this video is discussing, as has been made clear now multiple times. I'm quite confident Vardanyan was not intentionally bending his elbows, and instead was trying to keep them long and relaxed, and yet they flexed to a small degree because this is a very natural movement for the body to perform in an attempt to optimize the movement (including preserving more bar speed during the transition phase of the pull), again, as has been known for decades.

the slight but natural bend comes from bringing the bar in close after passing the knee

What does that point contribute to your argument?

It’s on a platform. And how is there any difference between dropping an empty bar and dropping a bar with weight on it that has solid steel banging against solid steel? 🤦🏽‍♂️