I have no idea why, really, and don’t take this the wrong way, no reason to either, but I trust your recommendations more than just about any other “archery guy” out there. Maybe it’s the lack of agenda or sales pitch. I can’t can’t put my finder on it. You’re just in it for the facts, knowledge and process improvement. I appreciate that. Keep up the great work.
You're on the right track with your understanding of why. Some physics to explain: momentum involves MASS. P=M×V (momentum = mass x velocity) Since all parts of the arrow travel at the same velocity, momentum is contained where the mass is. FOC and why the arrow 'pulls' from the front is because energy in motion is concentrated (kinetic or potential) where mass also is. And so the momentum is focused in the front, pulling the tail along. The fetching helps the arrow fly straight because of air resistance, not mass; and having more air resistance with the lightest weight material doing that is best (rocket fins). - Thanks for the cool video!
I've been waiting on this video for a while man. I've just started approaching my archery with my engineering degree and it has taken all of the bravado out of going to the pro shop. I use math to get what I need rather than rely on who is sponsoring the shop that month. Keep it up man! The best archery content on RU-vid hands down.
i agree with everything you summed up in the last part of the video. I also am learning about this, taking info in and really listening to whats said. Like you said- most of it is based on 20-30 yd shots. I think alot of people need to listen first. We dont all need 600+ g front ends to kill deer or elk. The RF info is really amazing and real- get that FOC up as high as you can while keeping your arrow weight to the distances you plan on hunting. For example- i was in the same boat as alot of guys- 65lbs, 27" DL and shootting 400 spine/100 grain tips around 370 grains. I jumped up to 530 grains with an 17.5% FOC and my pin gap really hasnt changed too much. Great channel by the way, recently found it... two thumbs up :)
Every time I look something up that I need to know, you answer everything perfectly. Ive procrastinated learning about FOC for a while because it seemed complicated but I understand it much better now. Awaiting part 3 but no rush.
Shoot a 442 grain arrow, and I keep a 12-14% FOC from all I’ve read and heard that is what most people recommend as enough to carry penetration without worrying about the 26% FOC that seems excessive. Love to see an arrow test in part 3
Really enjoying the content. I think a part that people are hesitant to is them thinking everything has to be extremely heavy vs where the weight is distributed. Something that helped me understand this is when a truck is towing a trailer and where you want the weight primarily. It's not always about becoming heavier, it's about where your weight is. Just being heavy enough to carry the arrow and deposit the energy in the animal. We are moving arrows faster than before so we don't need to be as heavy as old tools use to be. It's having the appropriate balance of weight and speed to kill and then appropriate balance to be efficient.
This is a great video for you to watch from him because most of his videos go into the same depth, simplicity, and informational. Its hard to not finish any of his videos.
Hey Brandon. love the videos that you make and the contribution you are making to archery. I think I have another thing that you can talk about that is not talked about in all arrow building videos I have seen. its the Kinetic equation itself KE=1/2MV^2. the archery industry tells us that the V in the equation is a more important because the velocity is squared which means that velocity will increase KE more than the mass part of the equation. As an engineering student I take issue in this perspective. Yes, it does effectively raise your KE value as velocity goes up but what people arent talking about is once you hit an object, I.E. and animal. the velocity quickly declines and an astonishing rate. if you were to calculate the KE after 1 or 2 inches of penetration the KE value is dropping fast because we put so much stock in making the velocity number large. on the other hand, If us as archers put more value in the mass part of this equation, you are putting more energy from the bow to move a heavier object and because you put more energy into the "mass" part of the equation. the mass doesnt decline once you hit an object which explains why mass will penetrate further everytime because we are putting more energy into something that wont decline once it hits something. In short, the harder is is to accelerate an object also results in a greater difficulty to slow it down. ie momentum. the easier an object is to accelerate (focusing on light arrows) results in an arrow that also slows down faster. ie less penetration. I hope what I said makes sense and is a perspective that nobody I have seen on youtube talk about specifically. Stay sweet, MLee
Only 1 way to say this properly brandon...... I LOVE YOUR SH!T, the passion you have to not only understand everything abt archery, its past and present, but to also explain it in ways no one else can and teach others! Thanks man!!! And yes part 3 you sweaty bastard....
Bro, i found you over at Average Jacks channel. I love your approach here man! Its so important to not be a total snob about this stuff and always be in a learning mode. You seem to be there and I respect that tons! The reason i started this journey of looking into foc here lately is because I’ve only harvested 1 of the last 4 deer I shot with a bow. And, i can understand the occasional bad shot and no recovery, but that percentage should be way lower. Not to mention, my bow literally bounced an arrow off of a buck last year at 7 yards with mechanicals. I’m done with those things. I understand they work. I’ve killed some deer with them. I’ve gotten a pass through or two with them. But that’s the thing, you have to hit the right spot. The high foc with fixed broadheads that are strong and sharp are referred to as plan b arrows. Meaning, when your deer jumps the string on you and you don’t hit exactly where you were shooting, it will still get the job done. A scapula is nbd for a high foc arrow that’s flying good and has a strong/sharp head.
Love the Average Jack channel! Hes got lots of good info and I just like the vibe overall. I'm working on a broadhead video now and the penetration difference is insane.
Brother Brandon...sure enjoying your channel as I just came across it last week. I too am in the process of "understanding" this Hi FOC thought-process and have begun the "Journey to Building A Hi FOC Arrow" for hunting...let the fun begin;) Keep up the good work...and I hope are paths cross sometime as I am here in the middle Tennessee area. Our prayers to you, your family and friends...Sincerely I am...Dan
This is the forth time I've watched this specific vid. Great stuff. And, its on the money, not because I'm a FOC guy and NOT a speed guy. I guess I'm a little of both. Allow me to explain. I went on this FOC journey much like Brandon and so many others. Dr. Ashby's stuff is MONEY! I did my own research - tested several arrows shafts/brands, etc. - testing inserts from stock (that come with the arrows) to off brands, to Ethics Archery, etc. My research echos Brandon's. I'm shooting a PRIME Logic, 70lbs, 27.5 draw, Gold Tip Pierce 300 spine, 200 grain inserts, 125 point (325 on the front end), 590 total grains with 24% FOC (or thereabouts depending on the calculator you use). What did I experience: 1. Less speed (from chrono 280 to 250) 30 FPS difference. 2. Better accuracy at distance, 3. Increased penetration; over 6 inches on harsh foam targets and pass throw after pass throw on deer and elk, 4. Increased durability (overall arrow integrity), 5. Better/stable arrow flight - the wind does not matter from 0 to 60 yards, I do start to see 3 inch (right or left) movement depending on the wind crossing my arrow in flight at outside 60 yards, 6. my arrows flight is considerably quitter - no more whistling in flight! Where did I come from: 1. bow config stayed the same (no change), 2. arrow increased from 420 grains to 590 grains (170 grain increase). 3. Arrow shaft changed from 400 to 300 spine and carbon to carbon measurement stayed the same - this is a factor specific to the archer, 4. fletching stayed the same (AAE Max) four fletch with a left helical 3 deg off set. With all that I experienced increases EVERYWHERE! I met roughly 9 or 10 of the Dr. Ashby 12 factors. All, this works! Yes, my speed dropped for sure, but just about everywhere else I experienced notable increases - better stable flight, increased penetration, wind issues are minimal, energy transfer through the arrow is more efficient, long distance groupings are 2 to 3" tighter, and my fixed blade broadhead fly with pin-point accuracy!! To test this further -- I took a buddies bow (Mathews Mission, Hype DT 2014 model) and tuned his bow, which are Gold Tip Hunter XT 350 spine, shooting 60lbs and he experienced the same results out of a totally different setup - his arrows are silent in flight and, they don't sound like mosquitos slappin' paper! I took him from 422 grains to 570 grains (with incremental increases in weight testing to find the sweet spot) and the results already addressed above were also experienced with this setup - this is great to see this method is transferable! Thanks Brandon great video!
Perfect timing sir...there was quite a bit of info that came out this summer from other great hunting channels on FOC. Interesting stuff and thank you for putting in the time!
New subscriber. I absolutely love this kind of info! It makes so many things make so much more sense! The ball on the fiberglass shaft was a real eye opener for me. Keep up the great work!!!
Way to keep us coming back for more!.. great stuff, as always!.. I very much enjoy the analytical approach and your delivery of info. Part 3?.. we'll be waiting!👍👍🎯🎯
On the pulled from the front - think equal and opposite reactions. There are four drag contributors on the arrow: the tip, shaft, fletchings and the nock. The tip contributes between 2-5% of the drag (can be higher on broadheads). The shaft is between 60 and 80% of drag, but it is mostly space evenly along the shaft, and the fletchings/nock contribute 20 - 30%. Since the fletchings and nock are basically at the back of the arrow, they are in essence “pulling” back on the arrow as soon as it has left the string. The equal and opposite reaction is that the mass, located more heavily at the front of the arrow, is pulling it forward. It makes sense then that farther foc arrows would want to fly straighter due to these two equal forces being further apart. This can be demonstrated by taking two strings and fixing one to the arrow near the fletchings and the other to the center of mass of the arrow. Put a light force on each string and see how much the arrow oscillates. All else being equal, the farther apart those two points are, the lower the oscillation.
That intro clip was pretty slick. I too am still looking into learning more about F.O.C. and trying to experiment myself. I did buy a test kit with multiple point weights from 100-300 grains. I have never fletched or built my own arrows, pretty much just grabbed a half dozen arrows (340 spine Cabela's Stalker Xtreme 9.3 gpi, even though for my draw length and pull weight the charts say 400 spine) with aluminum inserts and a 100 grain broadhead. I recently did get some Carbon Express Mayhem SDS 350s that are 11.25 gpi and come with 47 grain inserts. I did buy a couple packs of cut on contact fixed blades that 100 grains since that is all Cabela's had. When I get the test kit I will see what my old 2006 PSE Fire Flite 33 with a 60 lb draw weight and 29 inch draw length likes the best. The advertised speed at 70lbs was 295 at the time, I recently chrono'd my standard arrow set up at 264 fps. I know speed isn't everything, but I am sure it helps. Thanks for sharing and I look forward to seeing what you found out for your VXR with a 30" draw length and 70 lb draw weight likes.
Dr. Ashby’s website has a LOT of information regarding his theories, ideas, and recommendations. I do not believe he is completely wrong, and I do not believe he is completely right. Here are some of my thoughts: 1) Much of his research is based on African plains game or similar. Even though he does differentiate (mildly) between those animals and deer/antelope game, it is an apples and oranges comparison. 2) For “medium game” (whitetail deer), he recommends a 650+ grain arrow with 20%+ FOC (mechanical broadheads are a cardinal sin). To justify this, he uses an example of a hunter getting poor penetration using a bow (unknown if recurve or compound) with a draw weight of 35#, a “light, fast arrow” (no specifics) and expandable broadhead. Gee, no kidding you got lousy penetration. So here’s my statement on this, shooting any modern compound bow, with a draw weight of minimum 50#, YOU DO NOT NEED A 650 grain arrow with 20%+ FOC to ethically take deer. 3) Passthrough shots with mechanical broadheads on deer sized game is easily achievable as long as your set up creates enough kinetic energy to do so reliably. A 650+ grain arrow is not necessary to do this. 4) Regarding “large game” using his example of brown bear, recommends a minimum 650 grain arrow because “Why risk having to use a gun to dispatch an animal (if allowed to save your life)”. If I’m hunting brown bear with a bow, I don’t give 2 craps if I shoot an arrow weighing 8 pounds. I want someone backing me up with a rifle even if I made a perfect shot. That SOB can still charge you after a perfect archery shot! 5) Certain statements, for example, “For his FOC testing, Dr. Ashby used 82, 70, and 54-pound bows of similar efficiency” are vague. Similar efficiency to one person may be completely different to another. I agree that lightweight arrows are better suited to the target/3D range. I also agree that a higher FOC will increase arrow flight stability and also increase penetration. However, this deer season, I’m shooting 500 grain, 28.5 inch arrows, traveling around 278 FPS, with an expandable, at around 13% FOC. If Dr. Ashby’s theories are correct, and my arrow bounces off a deer, or if for some reason, the arrow actually does penetrate (probably only the same as a hungry mosquito), I’ll be the first one to let you all know, and sit down for my crow dinner.
Let's say on a scale of 1 to 10 it takes a 3 to kill a white tail. We may be discussing how to get your setup from a 5 to a 6 and are completely overkill for white tail. I've shot a pretty fair amount of white tail in the last 8 years and with similar specs to what you just named, I'm slightly longer draw but generally used a sub 500g arrow with a mechanical out front, I've only not gotten a total passthrough twice. one shot was high in the shoulder and another one was in the spine straight down on top of him. I'm mostly hoping this will help people understand there are other options.
The 650gr threshold is specifically for breaking bone. You can get passthroughs with less, but this is planning for the worst, not just hoping for the best.
Brandon Mcdonald, first off I’d like to say I find your videos informative, refreshingly unbiased, and well produced. I agree with your 1-10 scale regarding whitetails. If we change that 1-10 scale to specifically whitetails, I believe Dr. Ashby’s recommended (not his “minimums”) arrow weights and FOC would land at about a 12. It is also an excellent point that we look at different options and opinions. I believe Dr. Ashby’s work has made the bowhunting community cognizant of FOC, and as a result, creating a more accurate and lethal arrow set up. I guess some of his opinions remind me of something I was told in the mid 90’s (when many, including me, were shooting those silly 2-3” overdraws) as a 14 year old. In NY at that time, this was the minimum age you could hunt big game with a bow. That was my first deer season I could hunt. My bow’s poundage was set somewhere in the low 50’s. One of the local “experts” saw my set up at the archery hunter ed course I was taking, and made sure I was aware that I had no business hunting deer if I could not pull at least 60 pounds, minimum. Talk about a kick to the guts as a kid excited to hunt his first bow season. Luckily, after this, my dad (who has never bowhunted) had the wherewithal to bring me to a few pro shops, who all reassured me that there was absolutely nothing wrong with my set up. I didn’t get a deer that year, however, if I took that “experts” word as gospel, would I have walked away from bowhunting? My point is that (in my opinion), some of Dr. Ashby’s recommendations are of one extreme, and usually the truth is in the middle. Brandon, keep up the great videos. I look forward to however many installments your discussion on arrows takes, as I will be watching all of them.
stuponfucious7 I respectfully disagree. You can break a deer’s scapula (and most certainly rubs) with a sub 650 grain arrow and not be “hoping for the best”.
Great video - edgy and informative. You are explaining FOC very well and I am looking forward to the continuation of the subject. My arrows fly better with higher FOC - even just 25 additional grains of point weight makes a difference. Once again - great production quality.
Just came across your videos. Diggin' them. I've been researching this topic the last few weeks trying to figure out my next arrow build. I plan on making the move to the 5mm shaft but really trying to understand FOC and the importance of component weight distribution for an opimal arrow before spending the money. Looking forward to your future vids on this topic.
I committed to the arrow I use currently mainly because I knew my mechanics would not benefit from the higher end arrows. There are several things I will do differently next year, including, but not limited to, arrows. Great content.
Great video as always man! So easy to go down a rabbit hole on this but if you stick to the principle "You should always use the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that you still find acceptable" - (quoting Dr. Ashby) it can simplify thing. Also, everyone needs to keep in mind Ashby did all this with stick bows. Adapting high FOC setups to a compound comes with compromises.
I really want to build some really flimsy shafts and get my 350g heads and 100g sleeves on them just to see how bad it can be. I'm just afraid I'll send a shaft through my hand...
Just bought 2 dozen day six arrows with the 50 grain inserts, now kicking my self for probably not getting the 100 grain inserts- outserts... ur videos are great content that is very understandable...
Order a dozen of the 100 g setup if you're spined alright. Take your knock out of the arrow and then put in a drill bit with the back facing forward. Start slinging that like a slide hammer into the insert and it will come out. Beware of windows!
I started diving into that rabbit hole of math, physics and engineering and definitely can get overwhelming. I've been reading a lot of Dr. Ashby's work also. Here's what I deem important, structural integrity, efficient flight and higher FOC. Heavier projectiles penetrate more than lighter ones given the everything is equal (structural integrity and arrow flight).
Think about it from the view that the arrow is a static thing that doesn’t “want” to move. The arrow isn’t going to move until it is forced to. So just because the force is being applied from the nock end of the arrow, until that energy reaches the point end of the arrow and can not longer travel along the shaft the arrow will stay put. Now, this all happens extremely fast when the bow is shot, but the energy doesn’t force the arrow to move until it reaches the end of the arrow. Then, once the arrow starts moving all that energy is still in the front of the arrow thus it “pulls” the rest of the shaft along. The more weight out front the better it “pulls” the arrow when it hits a medium because more energy is stored in the front of the arrow as it flies along.
I'm shooting a 575-grain setup for elk with 250 grains upfront with pins out to 60 yards 28.5-inch draw at 67lbs. This is my heavy setup. My light setup is 50 grains less at 525 for deer and antelope. The heavy FOC is a solid hard-hitting solution. I will never go back to the lightweight stuff.
Good stuff! I’m struggling with this issue right now because my new rig is slower than I anticipated (260 FPS) with a relatively light arrow. I was hesitant to go with micro diameter and heavier FOC but given your explanation it’s worth a try even if I sacrifice some speed. The native Indian explanation paints a clear picture. Great content
Great presentation of the arrow info... I'm running a slightly fox conscious set up. 250 spine, 10 gpi arrows. With inserts, brass weights and tips. Total weight on the front comes out to 185 grains. Arrow weight is 518 grains. They seem to fly very well and penetrate very well also. I might switch to a lighter shaft after this season and try it out though.
That's a pretty light shaft for a 250 already. I bet you could pump your point weight up a bit more unless you're 80lb long draw. Honestly, I think your setup sounds great though.
@@brandonmcdonald6121 it's black eagle Spartans on the arrows. I wanted to try something micro diameter like x impacts. Bows 75 pounds with 29" draw. Not super long. I'm pretty happy with my set up but I do like to tinker and building arrows is fun.
Good video!! Everything is True that the native people had low poundage bows and used heavy arrows to kill Buffalo and it worked. However that’s not because that was the best tools to do it with, it was the best technology they had at the time. It wasn’t them choosing the best it was a matter of that’s what they had to use at the time. Buffalo are also crazy big and tough animals, much larger in weight than a Elk or Deer. Just some food for thought. My and a lot of people’s belief is if you shoot a 430-520 grain arrow and get it moving 260 FPS and up and your gonna kill pretty much everything or at least have a high success rate with it. I know people who high FOC for deer and deer were jumping the string constantly because arrow was heavy and slow. You don’t need a really heavy arrow for deer but you may want a heavier one for Moose. The animal you hunt will determine arrow weight and FOC. Great video dude!
It's nice to see an opinion on this subject from someone that hasn't quite drank there Kool aid yet or is completely opposed to it. Thanks for another informative video
I've been following Brandon for some time now and I always thought he looked like someone and couldn't quite put my finger on it. You're right Pauly Shore!! Too funny!! ; )
Great video!!! Love the content. Keep it up! An engineers personal take on foc. I ended up running the valkyrie 480 grain with 23% foc 75 lb vxr. To me there are 3 points in an arrows flight. The shot, the flight, and the impact. Foc really helps the flight and the impact. Impact is clear from the video. Flight is tougher but from my testing I noticed two things. One I used a lot less fletching with the Arizona ez fletch helical which let it fly flatter at distance. Two when I throw them softly in the air on to a lawn vs a less foc lighter arrow I notice that high foc carries more and always buries itself directly and deeply as the lower foc arrow wont correct itself on a purposeful bad throw and thus will not consistently bury itself. I believe this is due to the downward part of the flight where the head keeps its momentum better. This is in no way a scientific test but make sense based on paper airplane flight as well. Think of a blade-heavy knife falling out of your hand. The main challenge is the initial shot where the arrow paradoxes and thus for high foc you need to increase shaft spine and overall weight which hurts trajectory affecting flight. One day when they can make a lighter Gpi and more consistent spine tapered arrows like grizzly stik will be the next step to aid this specific issue. I don’t think carbon express does this quite correctly.
The T64s from Easton are something I've wanted to test since they go from 6mm to 4 in the rear but they're $300 a dozen! Just might drink too much one night and order some.
Brandon Mcdonald . Lol hooray for drunk internet buys lol. issue is that they are Fmj which bend and their gpi is terrible. If you wanna give it a go I suggest grizzly stik as I think they are the closest but honestly that whole tapering thing needs work on the manufacturing front before I want to shoot it at an animal farther than 40. But honestly I think I got better performance once I tried the Valkyrie system
Hey Brandon - we should talk. Would love to point you in the right direction. Send us an email. Edit: as always, good content and incredible production value. Double Edit: Because you brought it up and you'll appreciate it - a "re-shoot" of Doc's presentation for the Pope & Young Club may or may not be planned. Shhhh. ;)
All I know is that 20+ years ago we were all shooting much slower bows with aluminum arrows weighing in the neighborhood of 500gns with fixed blade heads.... ...and no one worried about penetration much.
Is it just me or do these great videos end too SOON !.....Brandon ...love it ...as always you should consider shooting a few longer videos for us archery geeks
There are sooo many variations of things other than perfect scenarios that can happen. I finally had to tell myself (before going insane) What do I think is a pass through speed. I picked 270+. And an FOC of 11% or more. Pick a hunting arrow and build on that. So pick an arrow you like and tune to those specs. Todays math will drive you mad. Great videos. Please don't stop.
Thanks for update,I have been on the fence for a week now since blowing thru a block crossbow target in less than a year with my 60lb compound.And that's with just field points shooting every spot possible rendering it useless.Also purchased a Morrell Range target in Jan.& already getting pass-thru's,jumping on bag doesn't help much re-distributing material inside.What good does a free new cover replacement do if the inside is shot---Useless. I also shoot field points almost every day year round & broadheads when hunting season rolls around to make sure their still dialed in. I just find few who have reveiwed this product in detail like you have with your unbiased opion .Thanks
I'm fairly new into the deep dive into the archery world. But FOC was something that caught me right away and its something I can't fight. The proof really lines up with it. Sure, I'm not taking 100 yard shots on deer with high FoC but 60, yeah. 40, you bet. The flight is still fast and even and it goes and if a deer turns, still gonna blow through if you followed Ashby's rules on using a cut on contact head. It's also crazy to see and hear about people who shoot a deer and it just stands there confused. The FoC being higher helps the bow noise and entry so there isn't a thwack and the deer tend to run less far. You really should try to get ahold of Troy Fowler at Ranch Fairy and see if you can do down there for some hogs and do some tests and get some info from him. Great guy and he knows a lot about the high FoC stuff. As for arrow brands, I know that Sirius and Grizzlystik are two companies that follow the Ashby system and build for high foc, as does Ethics Archery for their components. I'm using Sirius Apollo arrows and Ethics half outserts with a Grizzlystik Overkill Samurai head this yeah. Guaranteed pass through on a deer and because of the mass, I can eventually use it for elk as well.
Ive got family that just moved to Texas so it might be fun to look him up. I like his videos. He's not afraid of saying what he thinks! In part three I will have a deer I shot last year dropping in slow motion to decide whether or not I think a true heavyweight high FOC arrow actually makes sense or if the deer would have actually ducked underneath it completely.
@@brandonmcdonald6121 That sounds great! You should also check out The Hunting Public guys. Really great dudes that also switched to High FOC. Last year was the first year that they ran it and it was a huge difference. Also some really interesting footage with deer running less and one even came back to them for a second arrow. Love the videos, keep up the work. Really enjoy them.
Hello Brandon, my wish list: for consideration someday, video on hunting sights and boots. I’ve used all types of sights; black gold, HHA, current Axcel and I like bits from all of them. Boots: used a few in this category and would love your take on these things.
Good recommendations. I should do some more site videos. I don't have a ton of experience with boots but I really like the Crispi Colorado's I've got this year for harder trails and mountain hunts. Almost no break in time.
Brandon Mcdonald As far as the sights go, I found your bow review excellent and would love to see maybe the Garmin A1, single pin versus multi pin and examples of when those might work sort of situational. I’ve spent a ton of money buying products and found your line up reviews helpful. Thanks on the Crispi boots, I’ll get a pair and try them. Too much to write here about the sight video, but just maybe all the top rated stuff etc. Do you have the link to that M1 target? Wasn’t on eBay anyways
Info on Native American gear is interesting. Pope and Young hunted with Yew wood long bows pulling 70 to 75 pounds of draw weight. Their birch shafted arrows weighed between 650 and 700 grains with homemade steel broad heads of about 200 grains. Velocity was around 135 to 140 FPS. They took everything from mice to moose with that setup.
I've always found this interesting. I shoot a victory rip xv micro shaft (roughly 360 grains) 250 spine with a 100 grain 1 1/16" (I think) wasp drone at about 316 fps. The spine is stiff but the arrow is relatively light, but i get unbelievable penetration due to the lack of deflection on impact (i assume) awesome videos just thought I'd throw my setup out there lol
I think you've been smart with your combo of shaft, speed and broadhead. Put a wide cut shallow blade angle head and it might be an issue, but I'd shoot your setup too.
Think of it like this. Shoot an arrow up into the air (don't really) and the energy right off the bat from the back keeps it strait. Now wait a couple seconds and the back end starts getting sloppy and wobbles but the head will not. The energy went from the back through the front. If it's not evenly dispersed then the energy will wobblr the arrow right off the bit trying to go from the back to front in the direction it was received.
Great content as always! I will say though, the “higher the FOC the more accurate” (paraphrased) comment leaves little to be desired. Looking forward to video #3!
When I first got into archery 3 years ago, I jumped in head first into traditional. I quickly found out that replacing the 125/145 field points with 200s made my groups instantly get tighter. Chasing FOC as so many seem to is alluring but Ashby’s primacy was on 1: Structural integrity 2: Perfect Arrow Flight* and 3: FOC. The emphasis should always be on arrow flight over FOC. This season I bought a compound, transitioned what I learned from trad and am shooting a 29.5” Easton axis with 200 up front. FOC is 16% and total arrow weigh is 514 gr. I shoot out to 60 with fixed blade(Iron Wills w125s) and I’m satisfied with what I’ll be taking to the field. Might need a matrix target now tho. 🏹
Well you pretty much nailed one of my picks for the part 3. None of my picks fall into the extreme FOC category. The Valkyrie setup will be the highest 280g out front.
I've been waiting for this. B4 I forget, the SEVR self healing targets r the real McCoy in every aspect when shooting a heavy headed arrow shaft with total weight in the 515-570 grain category. If the Victory micro VAP TKO's can shoot 265fps @ 60 lbs. U will be impressed like the bowshop was last fall. After 3 arrows give u penetration that will leave u scratching your head u will be blown away. Take in mind the ultra high quality head & INSERT is needed 1st. Then perfect tuning bareshaft style is 2nd. Then u fletch which will give u the groups u desire when u do your walkback tuning. I have 2 similar bows with different weights arrow builds & neither bow never shot quieter. Not to mention the head hitting the SEVR target on camera is much louder & alarming than the shot going off.👏
@@joeybennett1491 I really like my Bohning X3 2.25" vanes. I wasn't sure about putting 4 on a micro shaft but they r low profile & quiet. One thing I don't hear people talk about is that deer duck the string when alerted or the bow sounds like an erector set when it goes off. If u deaden the noise it is far better than the mindset of I need a faster setup. Another thing which is important is being above the animal on a different sound plane. I know people that have shot bucks that were never recovered. The 2 things I hear the most is that they were in a ground blind on the same plane as the animal. The other is I was shooting a mechanical head @ 290 fps, from a ground blind. That to me screams I'm only interested in hitting the animal in the lungs well behind the shoulder cuz of integrity reasons. With the noise the animal hunches usually in a way that your hit is mediocre @ best. I want to recover my animal quickly to get the process done in a timely matter for better quality tableware So did early man who never thought about shooting 300 fps or how many yards it is or will they jump my string?
@@joeybennett1491 Just got my 50 grain outserts with my 210 grain points & heads. I'm shooting the Valkyrie short Jagger 210 model @ deer this fall. I'm looking forward to having the same arrows & ultra sharp heads year in & year out without structural integrity problems. They penetrate like no other & I tuned all 12 the same. I will sort them so 6 with the green nocks have heads on them with the other 6 will yellow nocks r outfitted with points.
How about a string jumping study. Rig up a contraption (maybe spring loaded), that mimics the speed and distance a deer drops. Include audio from the deer's standpoint. I personally don't think arrow speed matters when they jump the string. Numbers don't lie, I also don't think there's any reason to hunt large game with less that 550 grains. I've been an engineer and have studied physics. When I heard the Ashby reports..."they had me at hello"...more like why didn't I think of that! Thanks for the quality video.
Inertia* Once the arrow is in flight- the vanes DRAG Once the arrow is in flight, momentum (MxV) drives the arrow through the air.... while the vanes drag the back end. Hence, the “PULL”
Weight to the front, shaft weight, and shaft diameter are all good and well. Please address the fletchings! Fletching length, width, stiffness, degree offset, 3 vs 4 fletch, to what degree do they influence speed, and of course how they affect FOC.
You have to take into account the distance that native Americans were shooting at as well (while hunting buffalo) typically on horse back and typically sub 10 yards. After doing the research and testing with my own home built arrows, I am 100% a firm believer in the high foc way of thinking. I’m a lot like you, I have to do it, research it, and it has to make since or I discard it.
The loss of momentum for a light arrow is surprisingly significant in that distance vs a heavy arrow. I think I remember a light arrow lost 15% in 20 yards where a heavy lost 5%
I've been fascinated with this stuff all summer. In June I got enamored with the Ashby stuff from THP/Ranch fairy and went kind of all out on a heavy setup.. but after testing a bunch of arrow weights and inserts I just really think a balanced setup (475 gn) is what works for me. Accuracy trumps everything and at this point I just am not good enough at judging distance to compensate for the loss in trajectory on a heavy arrow. Very interested to see where things shake out for you.
Imagine a capped tube on the end of a hose, turn on the hose and the water (kinetic energy) hits the front of the tube and propels the tube forward...from the front
Honestly I always thought that archery was a scientific sport and that you had to understand that to be good, and anymore if I really want to learn something I start and end at your channel always.
A) I have a southern accent and my “dumb guy” impersonation is always just an exaggerated version of what I already sound like.. Odd. B) I’m on the high FOC bandwagon and I just never understood the speed thing. If the animals going to flinch, the time difference between a 280 fps arrow hitting and a 260 arrow seems negligible. (Though, yeah, thinking about < 30yds.. the long distance trajectory thing seems pretty relevant) C) someone smarter than old “southern accent me” should figure out how long it takes various speed (250, 260, 270, etc) arrows to travel distance (10, 20, through 100 or so)
Going from 280 to 260 wouldn't be worth worrying about. I'm curious about going from 330 to 210. I'll have a deer I shot last year in part 3 to show drop. I haven't started editing yet so I'll be really curious to see how it comes out
Gotcha. I went from 415gn at 285ish to 560gn at 260ish (I forget what the FOCs were/ are because that’s what we’re talking about here). I imagine most folks are well under IBO for one reason or another to begin with and that 90% of people are running prefletched, 6 pack arrow, with 100gn something or other up front (the 0 effort rig), which I believe TYPICALLY winds up in that low to mid 400 range. Annnnnyways, point is... looking forward to the video!!
I'm new here. I seriously like your style, Man. You geek out over the physics the way I do, but you try to present the information in an "Average Joe" sort of way. At the risk of sounding g arrogant; I am a bit ahead of the curve on a lot of this, but that's only because I AM such a geek about it. The point is, I think you are doing a fantastic job of "regurgitating" the I formation in an entertaining way. Please, carry on, Good Sir!!!
But if you had a diving board and someone 100lbs jumps off the board it bounces a couple times and it straightens back out pretty quick, but say a 300lb man jumps off its going to bounce erratically and longer. And wouldn't bullets be designed in that manner with a heavier front so they could shoot extremely accurate and hit a lot harder. I have physics next semester so till then I'm still pretty dumb lol.
You should totally your professors questions about archery. The experiment I showed I bent the fiberglass rod the exact same amount each time period the difference was the ball was strapped to the end of the rod in one of the experiments. For your diving board analogy the skinny guy and fat guy would have to be tied to the end of the board and then be launched when the board was at the same amount of deflection.
Higher FOC arrows and same weight arrows are two different to try and use as an identical comparison as hegher FOC will have a different spine than the equally weighted ones
This is all dependent on your Draw length, weight, etc...I am a 30" DL shooting 78#, at a 250 spine, my max FOC is 12%. Also, high FOC and vane configuration can lead to a "parachute" effect. I tested it and Levi talks about it in a few of his videos. I know people were shooting buffalo with heavy arrows and low poundage, but keep in mind (being how they are buffalo,), you can shoot one at 10-20 yards, not 50 - 60 yards.
My wife’s 24” draw , 40 ish lb bow running just shy of 500 grains kills white tails great to 42 yards which I know is a little far for that set up but shot through the deer. I say that to say this people need to quit complaining about speed. Every hunter has to evaluate his or her style of hunting and set up the bow and shoot appropriately. No matter what pick your shot.
Look if forward to what you come up with. I’ve been researching this all summer and I can’t wrap my head around it. I also want to create a slightly heavier arrow set up for better penetration but I just do t get the math yet. I’ve looked at Ashby’s and Ranch Fairy’s stuff to get a better feel. Good luck brother, maybe you can teach me some stuff.
I agree you need a trajectory you are happy with. Sounds like the part you don't understand is the part explained with a bad metaphor (the baseball with string). Correct me if I got this wrong but it seems most the high FOC proponents tend to be trad archers. they are already shooting a relatively slow bow. Thus not a big loss in velocity because it didn't start that high. Neat to see more people talk physics of arrows.
I have been pretty happy with my VAP XTORSION, with a 125gr fixed broadheads I am shooting at 275fps and hitting with roughly 95-96 Ft-lbs and 0.70 Slugs... what ever that means.
I enjoy your videos. As for FOC try and get a nail to stick by throwing it into a wall. Then try throwing a dart at a wall. You know the dart (with a high FOC balance) will stick the nail with a low FOC will not.
I'm going to build an arrow and shoot a poundage that is in the middle. I want to shoot 60lbs, and at or less than 500 grain arrows. That has proven to work for enough people, and it has also worked for me. I have a 27.5 draw length. As long as I practice, as long as I understand where deer typically move when the shot breaks, everything will be fine. Slightly over 40 yards and below that for white tail is as much as I'm willing to do. Other animals and their reaction times may vary.
@@brandonmcdonald6121 I think I could use either. But I prefer fixed blades. The jury is still out on which fixed blade broadhead I'm going to use this year. I'm going to consult my local shop when I build these arrows. My opener is in October.
The people that don’t want to change because they are worried the arrow is going to slow and the animal is going to move , don’t understand that heavier arrows make your set up quieter so there is less chance of the animal jumping the string.
The other issue is this obsession compound hunters have with speed. Every bow review has them shooting through a chronograph. Every piece of marketing material posts the FPS. All achieved buy shooting a wisp of an arrow at 80 lb draw weight.
Dude I thought you looked familiar! It just clicked when you said TN .. i think I've met you or have some of the same friends.. Trevecca?... FOC is alot im still trying to understand even the Ranch F stuff as well. Good stuff
I love your videos. I don’t feel like I am being sold something, just good info. I can’t wait to see where this goes. The Native Americans did kill buffalo, but not with one shot. It took many shots and running them to finally bring them down.
I’m kind of confused how we have gotten ourselves (archery community) get into these 2 camps. Bottom line is heavier penetrates better, reasonable FOC will fly better. But there is not reason to go to extremes, a 450-500grain arrows with most the weight up front at 260 or above should be fine for almost everything. If your shooting 300 FPS your set up is probably too light, but unless you are hunting in Africa 750gr arrow is just too much. I’m trying to take the best from both sides, I have the best arrow flight I’ve ever had with my new set up, 455gr arrow 13%FOC at 268fps. And I’m very excited about it.
I think that's a very reasonable setup. I've got some 460ish grain arrows that are some of my favorite flyers. I think the bow manufacturers talking about speed speed speed makes people say "why do I have a 340 ibo bow that's shooting 265 fps?" Plus the change in arrow tech that actually allows a very light arrow to go 340fps is relatively (in the human timeline) new
It technically is the center of gravity & the center of pressure or how much of the weight of your arrow is forward of the center of the arrow, in percentage. OK Brandon, FOC......Throw darts at a dart board. They have real extreme FOC.
