I graduated from Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, CA. The tuition is currently 49,942 for one semester. I am in debt of only about 50,000 because of FAFSA, pell grants, parent's help. It's CRAZY to think how expensive it is. And the worst part is...I left with a non-marketable portfolio and very little business skills (but some?) I don't regret it because I was not in a good mental state at the time and just needed the degree. I moved overseas soon after and that would've been impossible without that piece of paper. I'm a sucker for punishment and have gone back to art school in Japan. It's a specialty school, two year program, and total is about 18,000 for two years. I can actually cash flow that with a part time job (which you can get on a student visa). And so far there's been so much more emphasis on basic skills and WHY and WHAT you want to do after. What kind of career you want to build. I have a video I just made on my tiny channel about (some) of the differences (shameless plug)
Don't forget Art Center tuition doesn't include housing or food or supplies (Which end up being $10,000 + in the first semester). I was at Art Center when the Great Recession hit, so no one was giving out loans. I feel very conflicted because on one hand having that art school in my resume has been a massive help in a few instances. But the cost is exorbitant. You could supplement all that by being a killer networker with a polished, professional portfolio. But if you're lacking that, it's much tougher out there in the working world. Also learning little tricks of the trade that make you a professional is something you either learn at Art Center or through thousands of hours of online searching and practice. In any case Art Center has a habit of blowing huge amounts of money on buildings and bullshit so paying that tuition helps to feed the beast that's destroying itself and everything around it.
I saw your video first actually, the algorithm lead me there and then Kelsey put this up a few weeks after which is a crazy coincidence. I loved your video and was so happy that someone finally said it. I have an art degree to and I’m glad I was able to study what I love, but I still feel guilt for putting myself and my parents in debt.
@@ghostie7790that’s crazy, I have an infant baby channel. Thanks for watching - It’s ridiculous in the US. And though I also don’t regret it, I wouldn’t recommend someone to go now. With the resources available online and how the world is changing, find other ways to study art but double down on HOW you want to live - lifestyle - biz or no biz etc. or study overseas.. if not Japan, there’s cheaper schools in Europe. Even with living costs I’d expect it’s cheaper. Thanks for checking out my video :) (and the debt is real…I try to ignore it…my parents are getting older now and I feel so badly that they’ve seen me floundering in this career attempts for so long)
I went to Bisen, Hokkaido for 3 months during a study exchange, and it sort of surprised me how many skilled people there are in the school that can actually draw. No joke. In my own university, my class had skills the level of a beginner, with all respects, and nobody has taught them anything about technical skills, only essays after essays and theoretical work. It is actually quite sad even though universities all scramble to sell their courses as "investments for the future" and it just doesn't really apply to art because nobody will be reading your flowery essays for when you try to sell your work.
@@HuangLin-bm1oo I’ve been surprised because this is a 専門学校- not a university but specialty school. So they’re all kids straight out of high school. But the amount who can draw well already has surprised me too. Not EVERYONE, but we’re not agonizing over meaning but just getting to work. I’ve learned more about Adobe illustrator and digital painting in photoshop in one semester than my four year art college…
I didn’t go to art school, but I did study art at a major university in the San Francisco area. My parents were not sold on my going just to art school and insisted that I go to a broad spectrum university and I could study ‘anything I wanted’ . I’ve been incredibly fortunate that having a degree from a major university, even with the BA in Art Practice, has given me the opportunities to work in an art adjacent field - Fashion Apparel. I’m definitely surrounded by talented people with much better art skills than I have, but sometimes I’m able to work the room and the numbers crunchers who run the business better than my colleagues who only went to art school. I would probably never advertise anyone to go to art school today. I would say go to the best university or college offering money or solid guidance throughout your college career (and often it’s at a smaller, off the beaten path university). I’m not even sure if I would advise going to some of the big and prestigious universities. In any case, if art is what you want to do, most colleges offer some form of art education and then you also get the benefit of being able to get the broader education that you’re going to need for longevity in the future.
Went to a good art school, and have mixed feelings about it. On the positive side - a large amount of connections I made there have been long time friends and connections into the art world. I also adore my teachers, they really did help elevate my technical skills. Going into art school, I was definitely not the top “talent”, was middle of the road, and appreciated the experience of a community to learn with, (those internet communities were in early development while I was in school). However, these days I do not recommend art school to new artists. Many of us who went to art school are in crippling debt. A bunch of us had to get jobs completely outside of art, and I don’t feel the school helped us much to find decent jobs post graduation. I’m lucky that I’m finally seeing a goal to be rid of my debt, not everyone sees an end. Not a great way to start a career/life. As you mention, it blows my mind that the programs don’t have better marketing education. I don’t blame my teachers for this, they did their best, and had good marketing skills for their generation. But the pace of change has been fast, and I felt like I had to learn so much on my own, with business, marketing, and learning new art skills. Stayed close friends with the first teacher I had at that school, and he said that he stopped recommending art school as well, for many of the same reasons. There are so many great online mentorship avenues, online videos, etc., that it seems ridiculous to pay that much for art school. The really heartbreaking thing - a friend had a job offer from our school, and the pay they offered them was… bad. I make just about as much working with dogs, shoveling dog poop for a living. Maybe I misinterpreted the salary? I don’t know, when that info was shared with me, it shook me and I felt like that reflected very poorly on our former school to offer a graduate such a low salary.
I went to the Art Institute for a month until things felt really off to me. People I knew who have gone were telling me to "leave now before it's too late", so I submitted my resignation. It was an odd process - I had to meet and get signatures from 4 different administrators, each giving me a lecture on why id be better off staying. The last person I met with was one of the main people in charge of that branch. When I presented him with my resignation documents, he left the room then came back a few minutes later saying that he would give me a "special scholarship" if I decided to stay. "Special Scholarship?" That's a bribe. I was bribed by the Art Institute to stay with them. Leaving the Art Institute for University cut my tuition down by 90%. It was one of the best decisions I have ever made in my life. I'm glad I ended up trusting my gut to quit, and moreso, I am glad they shut down so they can stop ripping off art students.
@JoyceRainbowArt i did not trust my gut with the art institutes. At about the 2 year mark i wanted to leave for an illustration school because it would be more focused. I let my dad and a former friend talk me into staying for my bachelors.
As an artist with 20 years of experience I always advice young artists that if they feel they need to go to art school to study go to Europe!!! I studied illustration in Spain, I literally paid like 5 euros for two years of amazing education, lived the best two years of my life and I started my professional career right after finishing the studies.
I've studied illustration in Spain, I'm spanish... for free , Go to university for fine arts only one year (1700€ a year tuition ) ... I listen to americans complain about the money and I understand them... it's crazy the price there, you don't even start your life and you are broke
I went to art school. Specifically, the Savannah College of Art and Design. There’s so much about that experience that is incredibly valuable to me, so much I learned, and so many ways I grew as an artist that I can never deny. That said, at this point in my life, I wish I’d done so many things differently, and would NEVER recommend SCAD to anyone. I wouldn’t recommend art school or art college to anyone. Being in an environment that has a hyper-concentration of talent at varying levels is actually very good, and healthy for a growing artist. When you’re no longer one of the few hotshot art kids in your school or town, and suddenly you’re surrounded by so much talent, lots of new ideas and new approaches to creativity, that will absolutely keep you on your toes. Growing artists always need that king of fire on the ass! Good teachers, access to studios, labs, technology and museums is also a huge bonus. But… art schools and colleges are too expensive, and the business model for art education as it currently exists, is garbage. Personally, the economy for artists is not big enough to sustain the kinds of long term careers most of us want… need. Yes, there are a lot of artists out there that do find great jobs after graduation, but, not the vast majority. What we do is still not that ‘important’. I have quite a few recommendations for many artists out there, but I think it’s better to speak for myself, and state what I probably should have done. NOT go to SCAD or any art school. Rather, enroll in a state college or university with a reputable arts program, one that had the kind of work I wanted to learn about and practice. Of course, inexpensive. While enrolled as an art major, either double-major or minor in a business related field. Accounting, finance, money management, marketing, something that gives me a deep understanding of economics. That way I can apply that knowledge to my artistic business ventures. My absolute greatest regret and deficiency in life is not being functional in this area. It fucking sucks. It affects so many aspects of your life in profound ways: what you can afford, your lifestyle, your health, your relationships, your family life, and more. It’s worse when you’re on that financial aid debt-treadmill. The fact that there is little if any focus on business and financial skills in the arts is criminal. It was foolish of me to not have handled this. Start a business while you’re in school. In college before you graduate, and if you can, right before or after high school. It doesn’t matter if it’s large or small or even a big success, just get into the routine of running something that brings you income. From selling lemonade, to selling stickers to running a RU-vid channel. Don’t wait for graduation to start. There’s more I’d like to say, but I’ll leave it here.
I wish you'd say more. Have you a shameless self-promotional plug to share? Now would be a good time. I considered SCAD until I saw the tuition and talked with James Gurney about art school (His wife went to SCAD, he never went to any art school). Your experience confirms what I learned. Thank you for sharing. May you always find wonder and inspiration around you.
@@bluwasabi7635 Thank you, I appreciate that. I didn’t want my comment to turn into a rant about SCAD in particular. There are more than enough of those to be found all over YT. I’ve seen many fellow artists from other institutions fall into the same traps with their art careers. Even those that have been ‘successful’ hit various roadblocks and snags based on what’s been discussed in Kelsey’s video and these comments. So it’s not just a SCAD thing. My bigger focus to young and old artists is to stay away from the overpriced art schools, get as business savvy as possible, and do what works best for you. No single solution works for everyone. Entrepreneurship, working independently, working with collectives, teaching, working for media design firms (big or small), or better yet, coming up with a brand new business model altogether; find the path, or combination of paths that work. In the midst of all the BS, I do see huge opportunities to do things in different and better ways.
There's also been a more concrete report by the BFAMFAPhD on honestly the lie art schools teach that you will make a living and pay off all of your loans. They found of the 2 million art graduates in the USA, only 200 thousand of them are working artists. bfamfaphd.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/BFAMFAPhD_ArtistsReportBack2014-10.pdf
I lived in Savannah for about a year recently, and I wished I could have gone to scad, but not in my wildest dreams lol I KNEW I’d never afford that crazy shit, but it all looked so fancy and fun to go to school there. Instead I’ve learned all I can about art from free recourses :3
I graduated from the Art Institute (Ai) back in the early 80s when it was still only a two-year finishing program, and you needed to go to an accredited college for your required academics, as well as getting your puke-inducing Art History (and a few other art-related) prerequisites out of the way before Ai would even consider you... My field of study in Ai was Graphic Design, and even back then (before the computer apps), most of it wasn't really necessary, being that my father and my stepmother were fully immersed in the NYC artsy/cultural crowd (my father was a part time freelance writer, and my stepmother was a commercial artist/graphic designer whom also was an excellent seamstress which landed her jobs in the wardrobe depts. of a few Broadway plays of the time - 60s), therefore I breezed through college, utilizing very little of it even back then, having learned much of what I knew already on the job! Those were the days indeed, but if I knew now what I knew then, there'd be absolutely NO college at all... What the Sam Hill for? Everything (including art history) can now be done on line for absolutely free or at a fraction of the overall price!
Art schools are going the way of the dinosaurs. They are too big, too expensive and the graduates are sent into the world totally unprepared to basically be an independent contractor. Most art school graduates will fail still owe thousands upon thousands of dollars thru out their life time hindering them in everything going forward. My tip to anyone considering going into the arts, proceed with extreme caution!!! It could wind up being one of your worst mistakes!😱
mine teachers are against selling your art outside a gallery. There was this student who was selling her art online, in mugs and t-shirts... they told her to stop.
College doesn't teach art students anything anyway. Most techniques were self taught. Even their critiques were not helpful. Some professors were there to mostly discourage students if the students are extremely talented. Only if they "liked" them then they'll take them under their wing. If you don't fit their mold then you're pretty much on your own which is the norm. I wish I never wasted my money going to art college but all it did really was getting a degree in liberal arts to land a job in corporate America. Art schools are way overrated as one can get better learning on social media.
@@noname-nu6oo Be careful... social media is a breeding ground for scammers and AI trainers. When I left F@ceb00k a few months ago, they were training their AI programs on users' posted content. And you could not opt out in the United States.
I went to art school. That art school shut down quite some time ago. My BFA no longer exists. I mean, I can see the piece of paper. I'm looking at it now. But if I were to attempt to use that thing for a job, it just doesn't exist. Can't even get transcripts. Thank goodness I went into a Masters' program at a non-art school. As for whether it gave me the skills that I need to succeed when it comes to marketing, business and entrepreneurship, the answer is a resounding "HELL NO." I learned some skills, met some cool people (who I never even talk to now), and was able to get into a Masters' program - and those are about the only positive things I can say about that school right now.
I graduated from art uni in Finland. Basically in every semester we studied something different. Only one semester was about painting and classical art methods, what I was really intreseted in. In spite of the diverse topics (photography, video, visual design, ux/ui design, etc.) during the sudies, and in spite of that I feel like I learned a lot, I also feel like I know nothing when it comes to getting a job in art or creating a business on my own. It feels like a waste of time tbh, and that I could have stayed at home instead, worked something on the side part time and just try to figure things out for myself. Because it seams it's inevitable anyways. PS.: The higher education in Finland is free, so no debt to worry about here, just the cost of living, which is increasing in Europe as well...
@art-by-viki May I ask which uni you're referring to?🥺 Is it Kuvataideakatemia or another uni? I'm not from Finland but I'm considering moving to Finalnd and doing my masters in painting at Kuvataideakatemia, and I do not want to repeat the mistake of picking a programme with no real focus like I did with my bachelors, thus wasting another 2 years of my life and money, seeing that they're raising tuition fees for foreign students🥹 I feel like there isn't enough discussion on how students at Kuvataideakatemia really think about their studies, and I want to have a better insight on whether the studies at Kuvataideakatemia would be helpful to an aspiring *independent artist who wishes to own an sustainable art business* like myself (I've looked into their Opinto-opas a lot of times and their courses, structure and study culture seem to be very promising and very suitable for me [Kuvataideakatemia does allow students to pick an area of focus, and they provide quite a lot of art business courses], but I'd still appreciate extra insight. And I do notice that fine arts degrees at ammattikorkeakoulut really are a mix-and-match of a lot of things)
@@jcjessica Hey Jessica, yeah I went to TAMK, Tampere Uni of Applied Sciences, to do my bachelors. About the masters I am not a big help. Even tho i'd love to do them eventually too, but you need 2 years of work experience first... so good luck to me i guess lol. But i think you can reach out to Kuvataideakatemia about the program they offer or to the student union. Every uni has here I think and I bet they would be happy to help too. I am also a foreigner here but from an EU country. I can say that Finland is a great place to live, terrible to find a job as a foreigner if you don't have someone to help you out. I mean like literally push you in somewhere. But the schools are great, i think pretty well equipped, the teachers are really nice too, many of them were practicing artists also. So I can only recommend. Even the food they offer at school was good, tho bring some spices if that's what you like, cuz finns only know salt and pepper lol. Good luck and I hope you find what you are looking for :)
If you have just graduated high school or learned that the school that you got accepted into is closing down and are scrambling to find a solution this coming school year, just know that it's still really really important for every artist to keep creating things and to keep telling their own stories. So many marginalized communities are going to lose representation in the media we love because no one is going to be in the studio to advocate for it. There are so many resources online. It is not easy to teach yourself this stuff but it is possible and if you really really want this for your life then you're just going to have to put in the work the same as you would if you went to one of these fancy four-year colleges. You might even learn more. Don't give up!
@@theartofruu Be careful. The desire to create is likely going to interfere with getting any sort of real job. I often wish I had never been given the creativity "gift" for that reason. It's not a gift; it's a curse.
I went to art school, in the 1980s! I am amazed that art schools have not caught up with how technology and the internet have made becoming a working artist much more of a possibility than back when I went to art school. It's as if making 'money' from your art is still a dirty word.
@@ac1646 Technology has made it very difficult for me as an artist. For one thing, I have found it next to impossible to learn. Secondly, every single attempt to have an art site or social media presence has been a disaster. From scammers to outright abuse.
@@jenniferburchill3658 I can feel the pain in your comment. Do you have a knowledgeable friend or a group you can join to help you navigate the pitfalls?
@ac1646 Unfortunately, no. Anybody I used to have as a "connection" has pretty much shown to me that I'm not worth their time, and/or preaches the same old garbage over and over. There is no true intent to help me out whatsoever.
It's disheartening when one studied the finer techniques and the grandest of masters just to graduate and get a "graphic" design jobs that involve bumping text, kerning and enlarging fonts for a drab business card....
There are so many mentorships available directly with professional artists, too. If I were to go back, I'd skip the art school and go straight to a mentorship. I've done both, and I learned way more relevant information from the mentorship.
i really like how you include the clips where you mess up your talking, i do it soo much on the very limited things i;ve had to speak on and i always felt so silly when i make mistakes, so its comforting to see that its normal to sometimes mess up talking even for people who are experienced in doing it.
Okay Ms. 4K video and top notch lighting. I SEE YOU! 😍 Also, I completely agree. Art schools are significantly overpriced. The greatest benefits they have to offer are: - An art learning curriculum that takes the guess-work out of learning how to draw/paint. - A reliable source of accountability to start and finish art projects. - An opportunity to build close relationships with artists and professors who can help you get your foot in the door of a AAA game studio. But here's the thing-- you can do and have all of those things without attending art school. It's just going to require doing your own research and creating your own: - Art learning curriculum - Source of external accountability - Networking strategy Or like you said, you could join an atelier, attend workshops, or learn through free or paid online courses. All in all, I love that you're shining a light on these fundamentally broken art institutions (and at no cost). Please keep up the amazing work you're doing! ☺
@@ItsHannaLuna But how the heck does one network without making tons of enemies in the art world??? That literally happened to me. Some of the people in the art world literally physically threatened me because I dared to attempt to network with them.
I went to college in the early 2000s and managed to get into the Art Institute in Schaumburg. They advertised an average semester at around 20k, but that was basically the number if you qualified for scholarships and grants. Most of the programs were actually around 40-50k a semester. The one I wanted was new and it was somewhere around 65k to start, and then around 40k after financial aid. I commuted to a local school where I had a full-ride instead. The crazy thing was, every single adult in my life was disappointed in me for not going. It's hard to explain to younger generations just how much people believed and pushed the idea that "any amount of debt is fine because literally any college degree will pay for itself." It was devastating at the time, but now I'm so thankful younger me didn't fall into that trap.
You dodged a bullet! The Schaumburg campus shut down in 2018/19. It was one of the schools that was part of the sweets v Cardona class action suit! The education you would have received would have been cut rate and your gut instinct was right so those people who were disappointed about your decision should be applauding you 👏
I left a Theater Arts degree program after 2 years…one day I woke up and realized I was gonna be a starving actor with a load of debt, working as a carpenter. So I only had a half load of debt . Which was enough I assure you.
I just graduated highschool. But before that, I had a chat with my teacher where I brought up not going to art school. I thought he'd support but i was given the complete opposite. To the main point, I think school (even highschool) is a scam. By this, i mean they give you information which is good. But they fail to teach you the need to know bits. (You explained it perfectly in this video) On top of that, I dont have parents to fund my education and I don't have the money to go to art school. As much as Id like to take a risk, Im not going to let myself get scammed and end up $100,000 in debt
Cheers to that! High school is mostly a waste of time (in my experience). Min to no basic economics or how to file taxes...get a loan...bla bla bla. Disappointing. James Gurney and Vonnart are pretty insightful about freelancing as well, if you want to explore other routes that don't involve art school.
You might qualify for a pell grant if you don't have any parents. I was a ward of the court and got a free ride but I screwed it up and flunked out after my freshman year and took a year off. This was back in the 90's. I ended up going back after working a year in the real world and seeing how miserable adults were. I thought becoming a graphic designer with a BFA would solve all of that. If I had a crystal ball of how fast tech changed that industry I never would have went to college in the first place. You can learn about anything off RU-vid videos and closed groups in certain genres these days. They don't look at your degree when hiring, they want to see your portfolio in corporate world.
7:21 - critical point that you're making - higher education should have a return on investment and art schools as they are right now do not provide this.
The cost of any degree should reflect the expected average income it can provide for the graduate. If there are few jobs for the field and the pay is low, then the cost should reflect that. The programs offered need to actually teach actual skill sets that get work as well. It's ok to offer degrees that are purely for personal growth but don't sell as something they aren't. The entire college system has become financially predatory and deserve to go out of business.
I always thought it was messed up that art schools are one of the only schools where you have to prove you ALREADY have skills before you can enroll. If you can only draw a stick figure, there’s no way you’re getting into a school like CalArts. Can you imagine having to prove you already know how to repair a car engine before being accepted into mechanic school? Or proving you can create a perfect hollandaise before being accepted into culinary school? 😂
Fr. As a kid I always thought to myself "What's the point of art school? Schools are for learning. So why do you already need to know everything to even get accepted?"
I am an engineer, but I did art since primary school, with some breaks. I plan to finish my phd and then enroll in an art school for the joy of it. I think art school is about art, but I am sure there is space for additional education in the field of marketing and business side. As in any field just collage degree is not enough, life long learning is standard.
Really really love this video!! This reminds me of something an art instructor of mine shared in a story, where he was an instructor at ArtCenter and was doodling digital,y with some college seniors. The seniors looked at his work and said “wow that’s so cool! How did you do that?” My instructor said the lasso tool. The seniors write it down, and look at him like they’ve never heard of the lasso tool. Later on he expressed to the school board how you have college seniors about to graduate into an industry they are in no way prepared for at all. Art instructor Jeff Watts expressed a similar feeling, when he launched his own independent school and had students come-students from a four year college like ArtCenter- yet when he examined their work.they were still beginners; that they just spent thousands of dollars and still nowhere close to industry ready. That’s scary! They barely know the lasso tool! Barely know something-Photoshop- that has become an industry standard. The school (ArtCenter I think) would rather have the seniors spend so much time and money on watercolors, gouache and traditional painting that in a lot of ways isn’t as applicable career wise. Art schools like Brainstorm Online, CDA, CGMA in my opinion are making education more realistic and applicable to that actual industry-and most of an industry that’s changing constantly. As my instructor noted why have students spend years doing watercolor or traditional painting, when they can easily learn digitally? Yes it’s not the same and there’s stuff you can learn from traditional mediums, but traditional art isn’t as applicable in the industry versus digital art and tools. (Speaking of business courses Brainstorm has a business of art course actually).
Another thing something a concept artist noted that nowadays there’s so many opportunities just to learn art- from RU-vid, $5-$10 Gumroad tutorials- that the traditional art school pay coughing up $25 to 50 thousands just to learn art is a waste. Let alone more opportunities to network. I’ve networked a lot at life drawing classes that are cheap.
This is why we're loyal to the academy of Kelsey! 😜 People are looking for other ways to get educated on how to make money from their art, and schools are not helping that. My friend in art school asked why they don't cover it and her teacher said "because you're my future competition" 💀
Im from lithuania so the reason is different. I never went to art school because even for 18 year old me it screamed red flag. You didnt have to do a portfolio when applying instead write a 1 hour presentation about art history. Then i looked into official bachelor program and there was 0 and i rll mean 0 art fundamental lessons. Instead they tought about history and "expression". Drawing digitaly is still considered cheating by them and fine art is somehow supperior than actual drawing. So i went to geo science instead. Whats funny few years later i made friends who did study animation and drawing there and all of them quit after 2 years simply because there wasnt a single lesson where they used either a pencil or paper and the final assigment in their words was take a phone and make a video outside ???? What sad that as a talented artist i want to have a normal carrier BUT I CANT simply because there is nowhere for me to get education i need. I wish there were schools online for ppl abroad to get proffesional education but lets be honest most of them would charge like 20k for that :/ and no young adult have this amount let alone would get from bank. Honestly if someone knows how could i be an artist im all ears cuz i just gave up on my dream at this point.
I am both an artist and a cabinetmaker. I never got an apprenticeship as a cabinetmaker. The reality is if you suck, you don't succeed. Same with art. If you suck, you don't succeed. I have no formal training, I was born with the skills. You can't buy talent. And you can see plenty of it demonstrated on the internet. Debt load is for the unimaginative.
Art Schools (now in universities, which is an aberration) aim to teach techniques to beginners - and also Art History to the uneducated) - it's also, often the first time, that an artist discovers his fellow human beings in group in one place - so there are more zany and weird than him - the young artist also discovers that his teachers are interesting and completely overwhelmed - automatically, he will oppose them and, as a group, will want to destroy the institution - this is a stage (to be surpassed) in the long life of an artist who does not commit suicide
Technology and computer have been striking the "art industry" since 30 years ago. In the mid, late 90's, the existing designers started to be eliminated since firms and corporations had brought in computers and drastically changed the culture. Designers used to make good salaries and able to afford to own their design studios or firms. Nowadays, the so-called "design works" are no longer exclusively be occupied by someone who must obtain an art degree. Any journalists or coordinators who can do the tasks just to accomplish their work (regardless the quality), their bosses would give the green light. So what is art? What is design now? Maybe this is just something for fun instead of recognition. Sad to say, I don't see the return anytime soon or even possible.
I only do art for fun--I'm content in my non-art career--but I still love to watch your vids about the business side of art. You're doing great work here.
Kelsey I listened to this video yesterday while working on a painting 😉 (you keep me company) and loved your take. Here’s what I think- I think you should make a school, when you feel ready. I think that coming from you would be an absolute gift to many.
This video is speaking facts. RU-vid content like this is more valuable than my time at Art Institutes in Downtown Miami. I still value what I learned from there but watching this channel, draw with jazza, david finch videos and whytmanga and more helped me in a way I didn't being in college
I was in school (NOT art school) in the late 80s and 90s. I had friends in the art department. I had friends online who had gone to other art schools, some quite "elite". Not only did none of the art departments actually teach business skills (even how to apply for galleries), almost every friend had a story about how they had spent 6 months (or more) on a final project, only to be told that it was "too sellable", not "edgy" enough... One acquaintance who was in textiles took the two tapestries she had been slaving over for over 7 months and in the same critique where she was told the above, and that she would be getting an "F" on the project, grabbed the scissors off her prof's desk, cut them into ribbons and in tears said, "THERE. Is that better?" The prof said, "yes" and gave her an A+... Art schools (with the possible exception of the illustration schools of the 50s and 60s) have not, in my research ever been designed for their students to progress anywhere. They are notorious for telling their students that "95% of you will never make a dollar from your art." And then they work very hard to achieve that percentage. If you're making money, you're selling out. This is not a new thing. They've worked very hard to be put out of business. Ateliers like Watts or Milan Art and the internet schools like SVS, Proko, and Bobby Chiu's Schoolism and yes, your videos and discord channel, seem to be a much better direction to go these days. Cheaper, and a much better art (and business) education.
@@billscott1601 Yeah, selling art is a pain in the rear end. Everyone I know always told me how talented I am and what a great artist I am blah blah blah. They don’t understand how I’m not a professional artist. It’s because the general public don’t get that art is hard work; nobody wants to pay for it. Many times I had the opportunity to do murals or pet portraits. I gave potential clients a more than fair price and they were insulted!
You don’t really need to go to an art school to learn how to do art. Everything is online nowadays and there are a lot of courses that will teach you on how to monetize your work from a business standpoint.
this is why im trying to go to a japanese art school either online or moving there, theres nothing here for me to get the education i want lol especially hearing about how much they hate anime type styles here its also WAYY cheaper as its translated to yen and they have ways of teaching you how to break into the art world, the pros i found were just wild and i really hope i can find one that works for me
It's very interesting to hear this discussion. I was pondering on the possibilities of going to art school (I majored in a completely different field but have been interested in art all the time). Then I find that most art schools do not publish clear information on the placement/salaries of their graduates, and ranges of salary I got from places like payscale, compared with the tuition cost, is not reasonable. So I figure I will just continue do what pays well, and pursue it after retirement.....
Some of the things you say are true and some of the things you say are not. 100 years ago the Harlem Renaissance artist were predominantly black and they had thriving careers. And many of them were women. Prior to the 1960s art school was not terribly expensive, no school was. Art schools in all universities have been under attack for the last 60 years by conservatives. This was especially true during the Vietnam war where the colleges in the universities were the centers of the anti-war movement. The response of capital was to increase tuition astronomically. These organizations are businesses. They don’t necessarily want to teach everybody what they need to know. They have a thriving business as an artist. In the 1980s, when computers first entered the workspace the first people lose their job with a type setters and the paste up and mechanical departments. Illustrators started losing work to better technology in photography. When desktop publishing became viable a lot of art, Directors decided it was easier for them to do the work themselves or the hire their friends in house. Most arts schools are not going to tell you anything about the business of being artist. Most of them are not gonna tell you techniques about how to create the art. There’s a strong emphasis now on using apps on the computer, such as Photoshop, Canva, etc., but you still have to draw and paint to understand how to use them. Most schools are not going to teach you classical composition for example. There’s an artist named Will Terry who has a RU-vid channel that you might be interested in. He put out a book a few years ago called “things they didn’t teach you in art school.” The last thing is that the business world wants you to have a recognizable style if you’re going to be doing any type of work. There’s no guarantee that that recognizable style will remain popular over the coming decades. It’s not necessary that your style be technically brilliant or even beautiful. All that they are concerned with is if it works for the audience. If it sells. If your artwork is not selling in the commercial or art worlds care. You will be replaced by somebody who is going to make the money.
I think classism plays a part in why certain schools won't shift their focus to the current art landscape-- one of my old professors straight up told a girl not to sell at festivals or events or do any tabling/booths because it made her look "cheap". I once asked a professor how to price my work and she looked at me like I was crazy. There's this idea that if you grow a presence online or run your practice like a business, it's not as "exclusive" and somehow not as high quality. Maybe even that more people having access to you is seen as a problem. I disagree with this sentiment and think it's gross, but I've encountered it a lot. Making a career online or independently obvs is difficult, but I appreciate how it really does make art and prints and merchandise more available to the average person. I love having access to artists who make and think like I do.
I went to a very prestigious art school in NewYork …. It was a joke . At another art school I was told by a very demoralized admissions man that basically,in order to get in,all I had to do was be able to walk. This was a long time ago (40 years) . Amazing these schools lasted so long
I studied painting at an art school in Australia 1989-91. Looking back, we were not taught much that was useful in a practical sense. Relatively little on actual painting techniques and nothing on things we needed to know if we were going to make at least part of our income from art- like making a professional portfolio, how to approach and negotiate with commercial galleries, how to apply for grants, how to network and make yourself known, taxation laws for artists etc. What there was was too much focus on making the students sounding & looking like artists rather than actually producing & selling work as artists. Lots of pretentious ‘art-speak’ theory. And it was the students who produced work in styles that resembled the works of the teachers who got the highest grades & most attention.
Art schools are closing due to the impact of the digital revolution. The visual arts are not alone. Anyone can create the visual arts, and music as well.
There is no point in going to art school today. You have professional artists who offer their own art programs online for way less than an art school will charge.
In order for the students today going to school for art to be able to make a living, they need to take business classes along side their art classes .There is no need to go to a specialized art school, but rather get your educated through a community college first. Unfortunately for you young people, you can't seem to get your mind wrapped around community college because you feel it's beneath you. Stop thinking that way and get a well rounded education where you get the skills you need to make a living. I went this route when min wage was $3/hr. I was forced into advertising art, but after graduation I did fine art as a side business, and now I get to do it full time. Patience is key.
I never went to art school, but I graduated as a fashion designer in Canada almost 10 years ago, which is also a creative field. 😊 It was a 3 year programm and we were taught to design, create patterns and sow. But the marketing and brand building aspect, was very slim in the whole program. Most of the students have switched career right after getting their diploma. I ran my own fashion brand for a few years but learned all of the business aspects online by myself. I closed my shop and the knowledge I acquired by myself allowed me to become a self-taught freelance painter since then. All of the people i talked to who went to an art school here haven't used their degree and switched to a conventional career as well. I think that it is possible to gain enough knowledge to start a business and to learn along the way to expand and keep growing. 🎉 we are lucky to be in this era of the internet and to have so many possibilities! Thanks for the video, i love how frequently you publish these days, your talks are so refreshing! 😊
I went to a Atelier(Watts in San Diego) for about 2-3 years. Outside of leveling up my skills, I learned I didnt need to go to college. Why? Because those that were around me in class kept saying how much more they were learning from the atelier than the art college. At the time I was self contentious because everyone around was doing the college thing and I felt like I didnt belong most of the time. Now those feelings have passed and I, gratefully, hang back in conversations when they all vent about their college debt.
I once used to regret not going to art school, but knowing that I managed to learn SOOO much from the YT alone+ other sources combined, Im absolutely fine with not going.
Kelsey, you’re so right and speaking so much truth on points always glossed over. I dropped out of art school because I felt it was outdated and was HINDERING my art business growth. I had so much irrelevant homework taking up all of my time for personal/product art. I’d be much further ahead had I never gone because in my personal case, I was organized and motivated enough to go my own. Just imagine if there had been someone like you and your limited pool peers to follow on YT back then! I’m so glad I dropped out and didn’t sink myself in debt. Also, I have been watching ALL of your videos in the last few months and sharing them with friends. I’m having a hard time gathering my words to convey how thankful I am that you make these videos with transparency, honesty, and a realness that a lot of us artists have been craving a voice to be given to. I will be giving back in a way to pay it forward. Thanks for talking about the whole umbrella of topics you cover.
5:26 I paid for college myself, graduated debt free in 2020, and had 30K in the bank. I worked like a slave & lived at home until I became and RA. College cost 14K a year. 1) If I had to pay for housing: Would have went into debt 2) If I didnt work 40-50 hours a week 52 weeks a year: Would have went into debt. 3) If tuition was 7.5K more a year (21.5K): Would have went into debt When you really break it down, my exceptional results were results achieved on a knife's edge. It was hard work, great situation, and good luck. It was a close call in every respect & that stress actually burned me out for 6 months after graduating. I went to school for engineering, graduated right before the pandemic, and had difficulty landing my first job. Art school is clinically insane behavior. The cost and return on investment aint going to work unless you are already rich
I think that is definitely part of it. Perhaps the availability of resources has become a double-edge sword. I haven't heard many people talking about this so thank you for bringing it up.
It certainly doesn't help that artists like yourself and me are out in the open on RU-vid, talking about how we can make a good living off of art with no art school. I'm sure a lot of potential students have seen this and realized that the cost of the art school was a joke.
Kelsey- I went to art school in the 80's. We had zero classes about marketing and business and were basically on our own. I am an art teacher now - starting up an online business - so thank you so much for your informative videos. You are 100% right that art schools should keep up with the times . Thank you again.
Ok, fellow artist, the federal minimum wage is irrelevant. No one makes the Federal Minimum wage. Try and find one person who does. The numbers have plummeted to almost zero since 1980. The states have all raised the minimum wage. Second, France and Germany have free college tuition. The United States spends more on higher education as a percentage of GDP than either country. Dude, where's my socialism? We're already spending the money, but schools are loaded with administrators who outnumber faculty, you're paying for a resort style campus, and multi-million dollar salaries for football coaches. They don't do this stuff in Europe.
I'm a MICA graduate and art school teaches you to be articulate craftsman with no marketable skills. Artists are taught to either make sloppy woke activist art or precise fine art for commercial galleries with corporate clientele. Insistence and reliance on wealthy collectors for grants, residencies, and sales is very limited. Art loses all purpose, meaning, and authenticity under these 2 scenarios. Jobs for studio managers, museum directors, gallery curators are few and far between. I never got work as a studio assistant so instead I forged my own path. The art school professors come from the fine arts world and know nothing about commercial arts. So I learned how to be a commercial freelance photographer from tutorials, workshops, and practice. My clients were canvassed through self marketing. On the other hand all Graphic/ web/ ux/ gaming designers, all arts education, most animators, and half the top half of illustrators find good careers with 401k and benefits.
I would say come and study art in Europe. I'm from France I think it's crazy how expensive studies can be in North America. You will not learn how to market your art, but it will be cheap and you will be able to travel, and maybe work a little while. Even with a student loan it will be cheaper to go there than to pay for tuition fees here. Universities being mostly public, your degree can never be "erased". I agree that there should be a "business & art" class with the fundamentals of marketing, selling etc... And universities should promote students-artists. As for the poor investments I believe nobody could really see Covid coming.. Unsure for the 2008 crisis... Also a lot of these universities might be looking for quick and easy investments, whereas real estate well done seems to be more of a long run, correct?
I went to art school for 2 years total and got too ill to continue and graduate. Now I got no degree.. a bunch of debt(50k).. And I do regret going to art school it kinda ruined my financial life the same as my physical illness did to my mental xD If I could go back, I would have never applied! I also feel like I wasted a lot of time on classes I had no interest in.. like coding and art history (I went to computer games ARTS), I wanted to draw FOR games, not make them(coding wise). So I felt like the courses just tried to shove in as many different classes into it so they could be 'verified' as a school or something xD idk. I had heard several times from both the teachers and the students that the biggest reason they are there is to network and secure their future jobs that way >.> I'm too introverted for that, no thank you xD
Back in 2017 I graduated with an AA in digital media (i went for graphic design and they kept telling me it is it is when in reality its just digital media) so I graduated in July 2017.....I did not know that in December 2016 my school had gone unaccredited and then after I graduated they closed and got absorbed by another school. I am about 30k in student debt and dont know how to ever start paying this back or get it forgiven.
I wanted to go to at school, but couldn't afford. I was good enough to get into photography right out of highschool, and discovered the dark truths about photography gigs. I thought, wrongly, that I was good at my art, and discovered that I was more mid-level. I discovered that the jobs are few, the hustle & grind is monumental for very little gain. I worked generating stock photography, and competed against all the many hundreds if not thousands of other photographers who were fulfilling the same gigs. So... Not only was I unable to afford the higher education, but learned that even if I had pursued that post, is have been let out to the same outcome. I went into delivering pizza until I could slowly pivot into tech.
I went to savannah college of art and design. My major was industrial design before I changed it to commercial photography because of a crazy traumatic experience making me reconsider my actions before making any harsh decisions and I too was affected by the pandemic. I had to learn it online and for me it was harder doing on ground classes. I am really pent up that the scad Hong Kong campus shut down and had amazing professors in that campus. Some of my peers had to learn it online that were from Hong Kong and I gladly transferred to savannah Georgia before my scad hk shut down and I didn’t know in American art schools shut down as well. This is a first time for me as well and I think that some of the people must be crying. I hope there is peace in art schools and may create more opportunities in the future. I never went to scad Atlanta or Lacoste.
I doubt that the academics in these institutions have any idea about the things you need to know to thrive financially as an artist in the real world. Most academics are completely detached from the real world and are mostly people who could not survive if they were taken out of the academic bubble. Most probably, that is why they are there any way. Unfortunately, students across a range of disciplines find themselves in the real world after graduation without the guidance of their professors, having to figure it out all by themselves. Academia pretends as if we live in an ideal world where it is all about pure science, pure arts, pure humanities and market economy does not exist. Maybe this is the residue of a mentality where the only the upper classes were a part of the higher education.
I think you underestimate the stupidity of average 18 year old kid. My cousins daughter is going to super expensive 50k/year art school this fall. For an art degree. I talked to her, other adults also talked to her , she does not want to listen. "It's my dream degree and my dream school". Of course parents cannt afford to pay, so she is signing bunch of student loans right of the bat....it's impossible to explain it to them...
I follow a lot of comic book artists and professional big concept artists on RU-vid and they all say do not go to art school. It's a complete waste of money because you can learn everything on your own through online courses or books. And if you want to work for the art industry, they only care about your portfolio and how good you can draw. And if you can draw the things they tell you to, they don't care about the diploma. The only reason you might want to graduate from art school if you want to teach at a university or something. And it's not just art. If you go to school for anything, you're not guaranteed a job. A lot of people who go to art school are even working as artists. They weren't even able to get a job. You might as well just do a trade then. You're guarantee to get a job. Trains are the only thing that AI can't replace because robots aren't good enough to do manual labor
How to keep these art schools from closing ? Stop teaching students to plaster cardboard boxes to a wall and pass it off as art! Start having objective standards of quality for art and the schools may get their prestige back!
YES! Your point about business knowledge is huge. I graduated from the Massachusetts College of Art and Design, the only public art school in the country. (And it was even somewhat affordable) When I attended, there was not a single business class available. Students were petitioning for one, but I don't know that anything ever came to fruition. In the illustration major, the business knowledge was stuffed into the last semester if you were lucky enough to have a professor who was savvy about it. I gave freelance a go after graduation, but did not have the knowledge I needed to really take off. I may give it another go when I've recovered more from the intense burnout, but I am forever angry that I paid tens of thousands to not have the tools I needed to succeed.
Im going to a community college and getting my art associates but im not gonna go further unless i get a full ride. And im so thankful for the experience, but i have a rare group of proffs, who truly are trying to help their students succeed, but we have a almost full enrollment rate where as the enrollment rate of the 4 year art achool down the street is 20% but my proffs arnt about do it my way or fail but more about helling us learn to be creative ans use the tools and tackle the choas of the art world. For example my pottery proff started off as a small buisness with no art education and made a decent living off of it, then he decided to get a degree later but he understands its not necessary for success and teaches us based on that not that hes necessary and cocky
I’m in med school and I find some of the institutional problems to be similar to what is being described. Often the people that teach are mentality wise locked in a specific era of a career and on their way to retirement. They can’t communicate to us how much stuff has changed in terms of job market because they don’t entirely understand it themselves.
Art school are insanely expensive…and some courses are not reliable with the today’s real world. Most of my friends who were in art school…are not part of the art world. For me it sounds like a non sense.
I believe art schools no longer serve a purpose. I went to one years ago which provided a pipeline into advertising, illustration and design. Everyone basically was recruited and hired. Not any more.
Yes and Amen to all of this!! Now if there is something specifically tailored to single parents with multiple kids who picked up art later in life…because even though I’d love to fully throw myself into entrepreneurship, kids and just family life does limit the time available. Anyway…very valid video. Wishing you all the success with your art, courses, dreams etc.
American colleges in general are way too expensive. Coupled with the inherent risks of taking in Art and Design as a career path, it just isnt worth it to a lot of artists.
I went to the Art Institute of Orange County and it closed down and has had multiple lawsuits. I also have a video about this topic. I couldn't afford art school so I took out a loan for my education and had to pay it back. Totally regret it.
I am a mother of a sophomore high school student who wants to study art. Her school offers very little as far as art classes. They do have a great digital media class which she is taking advantage of. I feel really lost as to what type of college she should attend. I have a sibling who is in his mid 50s who has an art degree and he still creates his art but never knew how to market himself or have a business to make a living. He lives paycheck to paycheck, has nothing for retirement and washes dishes at a restaurant to help pay his bills. It’s so sad. I want my daughter to peruse her passion but I want her to be able to make a living. I feel like a degree in business or marketing with a minor in digital art would be better than just going to art school. I like your idea about putting a course together-someone needs to.
Hey Debby! If your daughter is really serious about pursuing art as a career, here's what I would recommend: - Exposing her to a wide variety of creative disciplines and art mediums via online courses. Sentient Art Academy and New Master's Academy have short 3-4 month long live mentorship programs and at-your-own-pace online courses. - I think some kind of coaching or regular critique sessions would help a lot. Having her get regular feedback on her work from a professional - Research fine art atelier programs in your area, and consider doing something like this for a gap year or summer experience, even week long workshops from somewhere like Tucson Art Academy - If she starts her senior year still interested in pursuing art as a career and you've done some of the above, she'll likely have a pretty good sense of what specific field she wants to go into. If she has a really strong portfolio, a traditional four year degree is often not necessary. But if she wants to be an independent artist/self employed, I think either an associates degree or a bachelors degree in marketing or business would be extremely worthwhile!
There is no way those admission prices aren't a scam. How the HELL do they even justify it? Are they feeding their professors with liquid gold?? I went to a private illustration one-year course some years ago, fairly prestigious, in Milan. Almost full time, all teachers were working illustrators, a few of them kinda famous - at least nationwide. It was pricey: it cost us something like 10k euros. How in f#ck do they manage to get up to hundreds??
lol! You’ll be surprised to find out many of the professors at these school are adjunct - meaning they’re contract workers paid a meager pittance per class. The ones who make the money are administrators (deans provosts presidents and the like - they eat the gold - the poor adjuncts - we want to eat the rich 😂)
I graduated from a really prestigious academy for an MFA in painting. I paid for the name. After I graduated I found nobody cared about the name of the school. For every decent job opening there were thousands of people fighting for it. The fact that I was a straight white didn't help either.
I graduated from CMSU/UCM back in the 90s with a BFA, I worked full time and a part time job while I went to school and took 7 years to get the degree that is on my wall. I've been a practicing illustrator/graphic designer ever since. Yes, some schools were not worth what they advertised, but what is never really spoken much about is the overloaded expectations that job listings showcase, the expectations of the public in general for affordable creative services, and the overwhelming aspect of creatives being some of the first to be cut from places like Hallmark (which I went through) when companies want to downsize. The freelance market has become so saturated and generationally divided that it's evident to me that it's more of societal issue than just schools. The amount of stuff I've had to learn and adapt to when I first started when being an illustrator, JUST an illustrator, to what I know now is insane. Schools can only teach so much. The changes from the speed of the introduction of the internet, competition willing to undercut to get jobs, and a saturation point driven by maker space idealism and a whole industry driving print houses and design firms into whole other arenas of adaption. That's the reason why most schools did not teach many to start their own businesses. Progress came too fast for professors that held only one job title and few responsibilities. My instructors were active working artists in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. That is a world away from today's interactions and selling points. These were artists that had work in Rolling Stone, Time, Sports Illustrated, so they knew what they knew very well. Ultimately, the last 3 decades of creatives have no choice but to learn as best as they can when few other jobs have that issue.
I noticed this too. I also took 8 years to get through college for my BFA in graphic design. The professors at my community college were working in the design field or were old school illustrators semi retired from the design field. Technology changed so fast. I had an instructor who was the Art Director at an ad agency and he gave us all tips to start working in print shops or someplace with print. So we learned how to design for print which is another thing they never taught in college. Exporting your work, assets and fonts all packaged up. The outcomes of print jobs. You learned on the JOB. I was told you should have some entry level experience in the real world and then work your way up. Tech definitely changed everything. The faster the changes come the more society didn't value paying someone with a Bachelors degree in Graphic design. You would have to hop around jobs and have a fantastic portfolio in order to move up into the graphic design field. Then the internet became so fast and other countries don't require a higher cost of living in their society. So they can lowball you globally. Greedy corporations start outsourcing design jobs to other parts of the world. Next thing you know you're out of a graphic design AGAIN. Marketing/Advertising dept always took a cut in jobs when the economy went bad in 2001 after 9/11, in 2008 and then shortly after 2020. I got tired of the instability of corporate and decided to diversify my creative skills and be an entrepreneur. I had to teach myself marketing because back in college I would have had to minor in a marketing degree and I already had so much debt as it was. I'm constantly learning everyday because tech keeps changing.
@@cordialgreetingsart OMG yes! I felt like I was reliving my college days reading your reply! :D I seriously took desktop publishing and website classes over in another unrelated building on campus that was computer sciences. Over the years I had to learn press work, pre press set up, HTML, Javascript, Flash, and so many other oddball things. My first job even had me working in RUBYLITH and paste up mockup layouts. I'm glad you kept up with the flexibility that was needed. So SO many people I started out in the industry with, aren't doing any creative work, and haven't for the last 15 to 10 years.
I went to University in the U.K and I’m now in 50,000 worth of debt. My 3 year course was affected by the COVID pandemic and all my studying went online. Tutors barely showed up, I learned absolutely nothing the entire 3 years. The only thing that tutors did was absolutely shit on me for being autistic and not wanting to socialise. Essentially left with no portfolio, a useless degree and I am unemployed.
Good thing my country has public universities that have $0 tuition. I studied in one that didn't have art classes, though. I barely studied anything outside of my own field.
