I used to work as an SCV with some low-life commander. Artosis I think. One time we got swarmed by the zerg so hard we had to retreat. Then he calls me into his dirty 2x2 office and starts berating me saying we lost the station because I didn't build the building he wanted, which he never asked me to build! He threatened me saying he was gonna send me "scouting cross map" in our next mission. Others told me he is always blaming others for his mistakes. Glad I switched jobs since then.
He says while he just moves in with stalkers and an observer to clear all the mines... Vultures are fast, but with their range they can really only kite Zealots and Lings, maybe Marines if u'r a god. They really don't trade well against anything else so their speed is only really good for flybys on mineral lines and those are often suicidal 😅 With Blink Stalkers you definitely have plenty of counter play I would argue.
@@Broockle tbf Vultures are like 75-100 minerals, very dirt cheap for what they do, then again. Mech Terran has nothing else to dump minerals into aside from missile turrets
Despite this, i do think that there are some major balance issues. Dragoons should not take seven shots to kill a reaper. Starcraft 2 marines should not just be a strictly better SC1 marine for no extra cost. Some of the broodwar units need a slight buff in eother cost reduction or damage buffs. The only SC1 terran units that feel strong in SC2 are valks and vultures. Tanks feel weak, goliaths feel weak, wraiths feel useless, BCs feel like worse versions of SC2 BCs. The mobility difference is crazy, the speed at which SC2 can expand and produce units is crazy.
@@manchovieclemmons2380 I fully agree. I see the SC2 factions as stronger versions of the SC1 counterparts. The only exceptions are Vultures, Reavers and perhaps Mutas for Zerg? I don't know.
@@manchovieclemmons2380 anima beat me to it but i thought BW would crush SC2 just because of how insanely OP their casters are, lockdown, spawn broodling etc are such broken abilities compared to the mild skills of SC2 casters. in spite of that and the fact that every BW unit costs no supply i'll say it looks like it never gets to the late game where BW has the advantage, Z1vZ2 is straight up impossible to win because of banelings and roaches, so it looks like so long as the SC2 player is agressive he'll win most of the time.
Yeah it's probably super imbalanced, but huge skill gaps are still going to be the biggest factor (engine familiarity being part of that). But BW still has some crazy units. I'm looking forward to seeing how the meta develops.
Yeah I didnt see the apm but when I was watching I was thinking Harstem is playing pretty fast, he looked like he was trying hard really didnt want to lose to Artosis lol
Honestly it's kinda hilarious when watching both streams, just seeing the raw speed difference between harstem + arty makes it clear as day why harstem took these games with somewhat relative ease.
@@plantex625 Artosis was super tryharding. Harstem when super tryhards he doesn't talk (for tournaments). But yeah he is a gamer of course he wants to win always like he said multiple times.
I really love to watch this mod. I generally love to watch star craft (2 specifically), but this mod really feels like it's giving something new into the well known world of sc2
every sc2 protoss vs bw terran i've seen has been dozens of stalkers walking straight into spider mines. Nice to see that harstem has enough brain cells to NOT do that
@@Appletank8 Also in actual SCBW, with 4-5 goons, you kind of have a good chance to kill undetected mines before they blow up, if you trigger them one by one
I hope we get to see more of this mod when it's more fleshed out. This was a lot of fun, I watched both player's perspective (you can watch Artosis' version on his twitch channel for those who are wondering). I felt bad for Arty at the end since he felt like he exhausted his options and couldn't win, but the Captain isn't exactly an easy opponent to play, even if the game were to be balanced. One can have a lot of fun with this mod, I think playing BW vs BW would also be interesting.
I could hear Arty complaining "this race can do anything" and the guys in the chat sending snow's laugh "hahahahahahaha" and the meme of him clapping with feet.
Science vessels are so weak though. And they're slow. And they cost 200 gas each. With the mobility of sc2 Protoss, I feel like they would have gotten picked off in 2 seconds by blink stalkers. And isn't the emp projectile slower?
@@samuelfraser8922 BW races got insanely powerfull casters late game, and on paper it looks good for them. The problem is getting there, it seems sc2 races are so much better at mid game. Those casters wont help you if you are dead or are turtling at 3 bases against an opponent on 7 .Imho there is still alot of balancing to do.
30:113 I love that there's a ground unit that actually outruns phoenixes...it's like the Rebel Alliance evacuating Hoth. That's just a cool interaction
I'd love to see the game from his perspective as well, but I'd also have to witness the mind scrambling, despicable abhorrence on the left portion of the screen.
I've been watching a lot of Brood War lately, and one thing I'm noticing is that BW maps feel a lot smaller and more constrained. SC2 maps feel more wide-open, and the units feel smaller compared to the size of the map. It de-emphasizes the strengths of siege tanks specifically.
Yeah, in some SC1 maps your push can cover 80% of the map width, in SC2 its like 20% lol Its also unit speed (and pathfinding) that screws the tanks. Charge and blink vs derpy huge dragoons is a big deal. The only huge boon for SC1 Terran is that spider mines may be 100x better to use, as planting them is more noob friendly (but ironically more micro intensive), and they may actually chase enemy units way better and lead to way less friendly fire (sieged tanks with a line of mines underneath may actually counter zealots instead of being countered by them!).
The biggest thing I noticed was that sc1 Terran aren’t used to leap frogging sieged tanks. They just push with all of them and then are surprised when they all die.
Artosis is at a disadvantage because they're playing with sc2 engine rather than the broodwar, if there is a sc2 mod in brood war (if even possible) artosis would crush harstem in it too.
@@shengloongtan229Isnt Arty more like an entertainer/influencer whereas harstem is actually a pro player? I only watch arty cast, not play, so im not really sure what level he plays at
@momoaa Arty is high A tier and near S tier in Brood War. That is essentially high GM in SC2 terms. That is why Harstem said Arty was actually playing good, infact I think Artosis had a chance in game 3 and 4, but he did not take advantage of his timings as they were obscure and he prefers to play the long game and go for obvious advantages or thought out patterns of play, which he can't know. When Scarlett got into brood war she and Artosis were near the same skill level, and he has since gotten better, and I don't think Harstem is a better pro gamer than Scarlett.
@@seraphimconcordant Artosis at 2100-2200 is not high GM - it's low GM. The first showmatch against Scarlett, Artosis lost 4-3. The second (held three months later which can be found here (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Cx8xqSbUssk.html), Artosis lost 4-0, and most of the games weren't particularly close. They may have been similar in skill when Scarlett first started, but it was pretty clear by that point that there was a pretty significant gap.
I love the, "he hasn't done anything yet" that's how I feel watching clips of artosis. He seems like he just wants to build up and move out on his own time 😂😂
@@HaloDude557 Did you watch both Streams? Harstem is doubling his APM. Doubling his Reaction time. Doubling his camera movements. Do people seriously not realize that Artosis is mid master mmr AT BEST?? And that's super highballing him. Harstem would stomp Artosis with any race with just one week of practice. He would also stomp Artosis SC2 Protosss with his SC1 Terran. The skill difference here is astronomical.
@@Figgy20000 did you read the question? This is about actual broodwar. NOT SC2. In Broodwar you cannot add buildings to control groups. You must manually click each one and then manually keypress the unit to train. In broodwar you cannot have control groups with more than 12 units. In broodwar you cannot attack move, the pathing sucks so bad you will lose a fight. There are so many concepts in broodwar that make it an annoying game to play and master. There are so many extra things to micro where a player with good macro but not enough time in game is going to struggle.
@@HaloDude557 You know how much easier to macro it is when you literally double your opponents APM. Why do people vastly overestimate how strong Artosis is at the game. Snow literally beats him 17-0 in Brood War as well and it looks just as one sided. Doesn't mean Toss is IMBA
I just realised there's a bit of genius to the BW wall. It's not ideal in SC2 to use a full wall IF the depot cannot be raised or lowered, _because_ if the barracks is lifted off the addon is underutilized. But BW doesnt have addons for Barracks. So it _costs less_ to liftoff a Barracks in BW than it does in SC2. Furthermore, a Barracks is just a better gate in terms of lifting because if a Barracks is lifted all units will always fit. Where as if a depot is lowered, there are certain "difficult" block placements if you screwed up where not all units fit. eg if you screw up your addon locations or have to put a bunker.
37:00 he's analytical because he sees everything, and because he sees everything he can't let go that he hasn't figured out this map. Actually really good trait to have- if you're trying to analyze play, best to keep the map conditions constant until you can figure out how or if you can win the map.
I found when they go healthy count tank vulture if you go flux vains voidray. It steam rolls them before they can even panic out goliaths. Also upgrading air attack soon as cyber core is up.
One thing about the Vulture that doesn't really happen in SC2 is how concussive damage works. While they have insane 20 damage grenade, it only applies to small units ( analogue of light tagged units ) and shields ( as shields always take full damage ), so against heavy units or buildings they do only 4 damage per shot. In SC2 there are only few units that do have larger bonus damage than base ( units like Adept and Immortals ) and none of them are even close to the insane 1:3 ratio. As result, they do wipe workers really fast, and can fight Zealots just fine, but as soon as there is something even remotely hardened, they do basically no damage. So while they are scary, they can't really kill players, and their economical damage potential can be negated with decent simcity and cannons.
Vults do 20 concussive, 10 vs medium units (which is like vulture, hydra, and thats pretty much it for ground), and 5 (25%) not 4 against heavy units or buildings (armor applied before percentage, meaning 1 armor even on heavy units doesn't really matter, as it means its 19/4=4.75 damage). The only other units with concussive damage (100% 50% 25%) are meme ghosts and firebats. Explosive damage (tanks, hydras, dragoons, most anti air) does 50% vs small, 75% vs med and 100% against big. There are no "bonus damage" with SC1, only normal, explosive and concussive damage types. Concussive is almost non-existent and explosive is way less punishing and is what "vs armored" does in SC2 design-wise. Tanks (hydras, dragons/stalkers) wreck big units but aren't so strong vs zerglings, zealots, marines, workers etc.
22:50 Artosis: "disrupter is good unit design imho" thinking Harstem was going to write back "yes, BUT do you think its IMBA or do you suck?" :P but then Hartem might actually get stabbed lol
Its funny to me, because it seems to me reaver in BW is stronger then disruptor. IF you watch, it isnt that hard to dodge disruptor shots, which seems impossible against reaver, which also doesnt have to stand still for the whole fire animation.
EMPs are a thing indeed in BW. Science Vessels have them, though it requires a science facility upgrade. Also, they drained ALL shields and energy, not only 100 like sc2 ghosts.
but how many bw units have more than 100 shields though? it doesnt seem as strong as it might seem, its a bit op against buildings though but thats a niche application
13:50 see SCBW protoss has nothing against SCBW terran mech pushes. The meta is literally to eventually lose your main (as slowly as possible), and having production up and running in a different base by then. Because if you do alright against the vultures, T's map presence is kind of non-existent, in the sense that he's gotta keep his army together, which is very slow.
I think the maps are too large for at least bw Terran to do well on. Having the huge number of early workers also deters a lot of early aggression in this context. Think some of the earlier sc2 maps from wings of liberty would lead to more interesting matchups
i think sc2 protoss is just really good against sc1 terran, and a big reason is that mines are so much worse now that protoss gets detection so early, also blink is insane, and the fact that going air as sc2 protoss is actually viable lastly economy ramps up much faster in sc2 due to the mule inject chrono dynamic that doesnt exist in sc1 an upside is that vultures and turrets only cost 75 minerals so you can be a little more efficient with them, and tanks are very supply efficient in the lategame -- artosis played pretty well but he wasnt able to deal with the counterattacks, he needs to place the mines more defensively so that the counterattacks can be spotted in time
I was waiting for a DT push. Was always a favorite of mine vs terran, since there's no orbital command centres for scan you could run out of energy or delete the scan addon and turrets and terran had no easy detection.
I feel sc1 Terran that depends on area control just doesn't work against speed of toss. For example mines are deleted by chargelots. Blink means tanks are never safe and every high tier unit toss has basically can't be counted by sc1 Terran. Also, protons in sc2 can remax super fast
when I played pvt in bw 100 years ago I basically went zealot/goon/ht every single game. I played like zerg, expanding constantly and just sending wave after wave lol. I don't know how good it was really, but I beat some decent people. It also helps to send a couple shuttles full of zealots into the tank line to draw mine and tank splash onto his tanks.
in SC1 protoss does indeed often plays like a SC2 zerg, even in competetive. SC1 terran plays like SC2 protoss (protects their army quality, does timing pushes etc.)
I think if I remember correctly, Vultures have 4 mines each, they cost not to much and are quick to build, I am not sure when implemented in SC2, but I would assume the same. And yeah the mines do pretty good damage.
3, 75 minerals, but the "pretty good damage" looked good only because it does 20 to shields and small units (marine, scv probe zealot), but does only 5 to large (stalker).
Before I watch I know how this is going to go from watching Artosis' first stream on this against another SC2 player. He is going to try to 2 base the whole game and lose as Harstem out ecos him.
