@@AiOinc1 Huh? Old 1980s and 90s Porches and BMWs are leaps and bounds more reliable than modern ones. Before German engineers became obsessed with computers and making everything overly complicated.
I can see something from Poland based on the credits: Muzyka instead of the Music, Grafika instead of Graphics. Ah, the good old times when Polish people would spend long hours next to their Atari, whether from Grzybowska Street or the Pewex mall. Cheers! Greetings to all guys and especially to Maciek S.
Although the SID was more powerful as a sound chip, I must admit the graphics chip of the Atari 8 bit series was phenomenal! One can really see that the people behind the AMIGA were the same people, as many of the same design decisions are present there.
I would compare it to Genesis vs SNES. The Atari 8bit had its own flare, just like the Genesis/Megadrive, but the sound chip in the SNES and C64 were superior.
And yet, the graphics chip is more like the other way around. XD SNES graphics chip is more powerful, but a total headache to use sometimes. (and it's sprite engine has some annoying limitations). Genesis/Mega Drive graphics chip is just plain less capable in most areas, but is far more straightforward to use and get the most out of. Unless you're doing graphics on the CPU of course, in which case the SNES is hamstrung by it's use of bitplanes. (as is the Amiga, honestly - it's part of why it struggles so much with FPS-like stuff and 3d graphics in spite of having dedicated polygon drawing features.) I mean, the Atari 8 bit can apparently do better with vector graphics than a SNES can - that should give you pause for thought because how can a 1.8 mhz 6502 be more capable than a 3.58 mhz 65816 - you can argue the point about 65816 vs 68000 until you're blue in the face, but 6502/65816 is not a complicated comparison at all... As for sound... I really don't know what to say about Pokey vs SID or the like. Audio in general is my weakest area for pretty much anything at all. I feel reasonably confident with the idea of programming my own game and making the artwork for it, but I can't really imagine doing any kind of music...
You can really only compare sound chips on their capabilities(i.e. what sounds they can produce and how many at once). Beyond that it's all subjective, and subjectively the Atari sound chip usually comes out on top for me due to its higher channel count and impressive waveform selection. On paper they're equal though.
@@bjbell52 Really? That's news to me. Wonder what it does... Of course it does have analogue audio passthrough from it's tape drive. A VERY rarely used feature, but it's there. Atari tapes unlike many microcomputer tapes are stereo. One track is the data track, the other is an audio track, which the Atari will obediently output through the speaker. Since the data track can contain sync marks and the system can stop and start the tape motor, this means you can control this tape audio track through software. Which of course can play back anything you like that can be recorded on a (mono) audio tape. - the recording is non-standard in how it uses the stereo channels of a tape, but it's otherwise conventional audio recording. Of course the downside is it's sequential access only; You can stop and start the tape playback in software, but not fast forward or rewind. So it'd have to pkay in order no matter what. Surprised that no games used it for loading though; must have been hard to master such a tape at the time - but since that audio track is always present, if unused, it could've been used to play music during tape loading... Weird to think of some of the more rarely used features systems have... You can't easily test this one either, since actual tapes that use it are uncommon, and tape drive emulation hardware frequently doesn't bother connecting the SIO pins that this feature depends on.
I like the sound of the Pokey chip. Metallics combined with the sound of square waves is sounds good. I think what made SID sound so good was the triangle and sawtooth waves, which no other 8-bit computer had (as far as I'm aware). The triangle wave could produce really good, smooth bass effects when combined with the low-pass filter. The sawtooth wave when combined with filtering and resonance could produce really epic sounds (a la Martin Galway).
Depends on what you're including as an '8 bit' system - The NES has triangle waves. (however the waveform of each of it's audio channels is fixed. One has triangles, one square waves, the other is somewhat configurable.) AFAIK so does the Master System. (but the Japansese master System has an optional FM synth chip.) Speaking of Japanese, the MSX computers typically contained the General Instruments AY-3-8910, which can certainly produce triangle and sawtooth waves (amongst other things) with a bit of creative programming... I'm sure there's other systems too. There are a LOT of 8 bit systems in the world...
@@asic_ You might wanna double-check that. There's evidence out in the wild that says otherwise. Granted it's not an explicit feature, but it's relatively easy to accomplish as far as such things go.
@@KuraIthys the chip can only produce square waves and noise. Now, envelope abusing and feeding the volume register with streams of data using the CPU, yes, you will get other waves than squares out of it. But it is not the actual design of the chip that produces these results.
@@asic_ who cares about the intended design of the chip. So here are non-quare waves on the AY (and I am not posting stuff from the Atari YM world as that's a complete different story). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-K8gtnct_m2s.html
Someone asked about the final song's name. This track is from Jocky Wilson's Darts Challenge (1989). Composed by Adam Gilmore, the famous Atari musician.
Adam Gilmore the best his works better sound in Atari 800xl than C64. On the contrary C64 acomplised better games than Atari 800xl cause worse programmers the sound and effects fx Atari 800xl better tan anyone at the time.
and of course polish made intros ;] I live in poland, we've resurrected last year with my friend some old Amiga 500, and we put some old floppies in it - most of them have worked as they were brand new, but one of them had same style intro, as it is in the video. It actually told who ripped the game and gave few phone numbers to these guys in our town :D Unfortunately, almost 25 years have passed and we couldn't manage to call any of these numbers, but imagine how cool could it be :D
I was a 64 owner back in the day, but I respect the Atari 8-bit computers and understand they were very capable machines. I also like a lot of POKEY music, but it was no SID. To say otherwise is frankly delusional. It'd be like arguing that the 64 has a superior colour palette to the Atari XL.
***** Yes SID was better for music. I prefer the POKEY for games and effects. Being an Atari owner, I'd be at a friend's place with his C64 and the game effects just sounded wrong, sounding like a keyboard synthesizer was being played and not a boom or splash or whatever.
+GamedOut Gamer I respected the c64 sound capabilities, but I actually much preferred the Atari sound. Loved the purity of the sound... Sid sounded.... Nasally to me.... Like a band of 2 oboes and a trumpet with a toilet plunger in it!
+richard dye Yes the effects were over done. Trumpet iwth a toilet plunger is one way to describe it. Another way is the c64 sounded too 'farty'. :) True though that the A8bit could sound like a badly tuned horn or something. hehe. I like the c64 effects (configurable pulse width) it could do but not the synthesizer sound and game developers over did it because I guess it was easier. Check out Seven Cities of Gold intro on C64 and that's one of the few times a game actually used the C64 to sound not as a farting trumpet but more like an Atari 8bit. I do plan on doing some more Atari 8bit vids in my channel in the coming months. I got a 600xl, 3 800xl's and a 1200xl on ebay recently.
@@gregrupedski4987 That's what Adlib on PC had sounded to me. The amazing part of POKEY is the shiftregister feedback noise engine. It is as versatile as FM, although in a different way and has its strengths exactly there where Yamaha OPL sucks (hiss, hum, rough massive buzz and drone sounds). I wish someone had combined POKEY and FM into the same PC soundcard. It would have been the best non-sample based digital synth of all computers.
@4:30 Reminded me of Red Baron on Atari ST or Lotus3 on the PC :-) Awesome mix, thanks for sharing. Btw: I had such an urge to see TOS again, I recently hooked my Atari 1040 STE up on my TV set ^.^
Its not the chip but the producer behind the music that makes it special. Lets be honest not everyone has the same talent out there... in any genre of music you got geniuses and the sea of losers... I love both classic sid and pokey tunes. Rob Hubbard created magic on both machines because well he had talent. :)
Ditto, conversely, the Apple IIGS had amazing sound hardware... but the music on it just isn't that great (esp. compared with what was done on the Ensoniq Mirage with the same chip.)
Muchas Gracias por todo esto, recuerdo al menos el ZYBEX. Fui un avezado jugador de ATARI hace años ya, mis favoritos fueron Mirax Force, Draconus, Last Starfighter, The Eidolon, Agent USA, Dimesion X, Legacy, Archon II y... Alley Cat.
Amazing man. There's a radio station that can only be intercepted up in the mountains in Big Bear around these parts. I'd drive up there on weekends just to be able to listen to a radio show they had going called "8 Bit Era" that played music from the Atari Years, and early Nintendo for that matter.
Thanks for reading my previous comment. I agree with you on many points that you have made, but a note I would like to make is that Atari ST actually had a better CPU than the Amiga, because it is overclocked, however the sound chip was at the bottom of the barrel like you said. There are some games on the Nintendo like Vampire killer or Castlevania sounded way better on the MSX. I will be posting some links for you in order to show you what I am talking about. Your friend Zack
The Atari ST wasn't overclocked. It just ran its CPU at the standard 8MHz clock rate, b/c the pixel and sound output clock rate was 100% independant--unlike the Amiga, and the 68000 Macs. The Amiga clocked at 2x the NTSC color clock rate (7.15909MHz), and the Mac was clocked for 512 1-bit pixels per line (7.8336MHz). The Mac was further slowed down by what were effectively wait states for the 32 16-bit RAM accesses per line (=512 1-bit pixels) by the video display chip. During that period, for the 128K/512K(e)/Plus, the CPU only gets to access RAM every other RAM access period (which is 4 cycles for the 68000). This results in an effective CPU speed of ~6MHz. The SE/Classic video chip access RAM via a 32-bit data bus, so it halves the amount of bus contention from that of the earlier Macs, resulting in an effective CPU speed of ~6.9MHz. The Atari ST fully interleaved access to RAM by the CPU and Shifter, allowing for no slowdown of the CPU due to bus contention. The Amiga did the same, as long as no more than 4 bitplanes were used in 320x resolutions and no more than 2 in 640x (which was the same as the fixed # of bitplanes the ST Shifter could support at those resolutions--with only 1 bitplane supported for 640x400, which was non-interlaced, and at 71.25Hz), and as long as the Blitter nor the Copper were asked to do anything, as their DMA channels are fed with the same even cycles as the CPU, unless other features that use the "odd" DMA channels aren't being fully used (audio, sprites, etc). The ST's Blitter can use spare odd cycles that the Shifter isn't using; however it needed to be polled rather than working fully asynchronous, like the Amiga Blitter.
Very little Atari software ever did much with it's advanced capabilities. The atari 8 bits were pretty much dead in the water by 1984 or so. Which is right when c64 development was just getting started in earnest. Most atari 8 bit releases were minimal effort conversions. Few ever really tried to push the system. It also got hamstrung by so many devs targeting the 'lowest common denominator' of the family - aka the original 1979 atari 400. When so many games try and fit in 16k even though most have a 64k or even 128 system... The results are... underwhelming, to put it mildly.
@@jaysmith2858 check the ASMA project...you will have your jaw on the floor in no time. JUst check the following composers. Most of the composers didn't make it to the "western" ears.... BeWu, Wieczor, Marucha, VinsCool,X-Ray, Triace, StaxX, XTD, Ce-Pumpkin, Flash, Samurai, Kjmann, 505, Miker, MCH, PG, Raster, Dhor, DJ V, Chiummo, Jimpack, Stanley, Dj Andrey Balkonsky, Makary Brauner, Gnome Design, Kozyca, SoTe, V0yager, Farkas, Tatqoo, GMX, Fred Booker, Synthpopalooza, Chip Champion, Marcys, Trener, AceMan, Zilq, Caruso, Born, SuperJet Spade, Cedyn, Lorien, Chema64, Bac, XLent, Fragmare, Greg, Benjy, Buettner, Kulor, Profi, Buettner, Dojwa, Zaborowski, Casper, Seabrush, Slaves, Strobe,TDC, Morgoth, Poison, Sandor, Emkay, KE-Soft, Xxl, Hu-Soft, CEvE-Soft,
I would like to see more Video/Audio Uploads using the Atari 400,800 XLs, 1200 XLs and 130 XEs "GTIA Graphics Modes 9,10 and 11 mixed with the other 14 Atari Computer Graphics Modes. The Atari GTIA Modes were the most powerful Graphics of the Atari 400, 800 XL and 1200 XL and 130 XE Series of GTIA Graphics Modes 9, 10 and 11 !!!!
+Miesiu K I tried to make a 'medley', not too short and not too long. Many good titles were left behind and didn't made into compilation, like ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-41WF7rFsn84.html Draconus etc.
They forgot "Mr. Robot" and of course the (way too short) "Rescue on Fractalus!". Also Kemal Ezcan programmed very sophisticated POKEY music with plenty of amazing noise effect tricks. But many were Atari BASIC listings printed in magazines, so they did not find their way into traditional music demos.
1:30 subtitles below says "demo maker is looking for Action and Assembler programmers for cooperation" he also wrote his home address for mail exchange ;-) I remember those times very well. I had ZX Spectrum -> Commodore 64 and then my dream Amiga 500 ram with extra 500Kb RAM ;)
pokey rulez!! sid its 4 years younger than pokey but pokey have the magic of jay miner . AtariST & C64 machines of Jack Tramiel Atari 800&Amiga True Jay Miner Machines
I've said it many times but the Atari sounds cleaner than the C64 to me :) SID may be better in terms of varying waveforms and filtering but POKEY has that extra channel and can do much better percussion. It's limitation scan be overcome with clever programming, there's also a rarely used two-channel mode that had 16bit tuning and some other waveform effects that I forget now. I remember dabbling with it and got some interesting analogue synth type sounds. Anyone know what it actually did?
AFAIK pokey is a pretty weird beast. It's a 4 channel square wave chip at heart, but as you noted it can be switched to 2 channel 16 bit mode as well. Plus you can get 6 different variations of square wave + noise. Finally, there is a mode that lets you directly drive the output waveforms. Obviously extremely CPU intensive, but it basically let's you play arbitrary 4 bit waveforms if you have the memory and CPU time to spare. It isn't sample playback - as you'd find in later chips; you manipulate the volume register to directly drive the speaker cone position, but it does mean if you can pump in data fast enough, you have a 4 channel sample base synth instead of a square wave based one. Obviously you can use similar active control to mimic features the chip doesn't have itself, such as envelope generation... As primitive as it is, pokey can do amazing things if you have the CPU time... If you rebuilt a system to have more memory and a dedicated CPU just for audio, you'd essentially have the equivalent of the Amiga's sound chip but with 4 bit sampling instead of 8 bit... Of course an actual Atari doesn't have that luxury (unless you turn off all other functions just to play audio) - But then again Pokey was in everything from certain 2600 and 7800 game cartridges, the 8 bits, atari arcade machines and more... They really liked that Pokey chip. XD Just think of an Atari arcade board with a dedicated CPU and memory devoted just to audio pushing data to 4 pokey chips operating in parallel to get some idea of what they did with it... (16 channel stereo sound with samples anyone? XD)
@@KuraIthys Samples are boring. The amazing part of POKEY is the shiftregister feedback noise engine. It is as versatile as FM, although in a different way and has its strengths exactly there where Yamaha OPL sucks (hiss, hum, rough massive buzz and drone sounds). I wish someone had combined POKEY and FM into the same PC soundcard. It would have been the best non-sample based digital synth of all computers. Unfortunately only some arcade boards (Marble Madness etc.) combined FM with POKEY but mainly used POKEY only for I/O instead of sound. And I found no real successors of POKEY/TIA sound. The only interesting variant is the monophonic toy synth "Sound FX Phasor" made in 1980 by Electroplay, which contains a monophonic softsynth on a tiny PIC microcontroller.
The Atari ST also used the AY-3-8910, though to better effect due to being able to use the CPU to force PWM. However, the AY-3-8910, along with the TI SN76489 are objectively bottom of the barrel when it comes to mass market PSGs. The POKEY, SID, and 2a03 are all in a class above both those chips. Cool C64 demo linked by Brendan, though it should be noted the CPU is clearly driving that and struggling to keep up by the end. On that note, 4 channel PCM from X2008: watch?v=ZMioAPZcays#t=50s
Sure there is not. SID can apply a wave to a wave. You can see in this example that the sine wave is superimposed on the rectangle. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-G1AeBgalFZk.html
@@tiges i dont care tech spec of each Sound chip , every one liked more the pokey sound more masculine, the sid its an incredible sound chip my god. too, buy i like the sound of the pokey !!
Sorry dudes, the Apple equipped with a Mockingboard had two AY chips (arranged in stereo) and an SSI Votrax speech chip. But let's put that aside from the argument because it's not "stock" hardware that came with it. I'm going to say that GTIA for sound is a weaksauce argument because it's just 1-bit clicking and really not terribly sexy without burning up a lot of CPU to do anything useful with it. Look @ the Cubase64 demo before you think you've heard everything a SID can do.
Check ASMA project if you want to really know what Pokey can really do. The truth is that SID was a dead end , just a great synth chip without a future in the industry. On the other hand Pokey was the first Hybrid PCM chip with features that were later aborted by Amiga's Paula. (Jay Miner had talked about it extensively). To be fair SID chip is better in specific music while Pokey is far more diverse in the sounds it can produce....and in digital sampling reproduction without slowdowns in graphics.
Pokey's better at the bassline type stuff. SID's better at the 303-ish slide effects. I think that sums the difference between Atari and Commodore. In theory they could compliment each other if you had both computers available to do a chiptune set.
I wish someone had combined POKEY and FM into the same PC soundcard. It would have been the best non-sample based digital synth of all computers. And I found no real successors of POKEY/TIA sound. The only interesting variant is the monophonic toy synth "Sound FX Phasor" made in 1980 by Electroplay, which contains a monophonic softsynth on a tiny PIC microcontroller.
I don't get it. These sounds are amazing but are they the 8 bit games you can play on your xegs? Are they the cartridge ones or floppy disk games? And where can I find them?
What game is 16:57? I love the fact that some dude is just like all serious and says DAS OMEN but then some stripper chick is just like TIME TO DANCE and the face dude is just like wtf go away.
Atari 8 bit graphics are superior. The pokey may not have hardware ADSR but it can still do it and can still outperform the SID due to the software nature of the pokey and the almost double clock speed.
Really it all comes down to preference to the way it sounds. For example I prefer MOS Technology's lovely little SID chip to what the likes of the NES used, even though the latter was technically superior. For example the virtual 4th channel on the SID 6581 chips were used for some great stuff like the Skate or Die loader. Really the POKEY was a fantastic chip too. Creativity comes from limitation, I'm always more impressed with awesome PC speaker stuff than MT-32 music.
+cazzozzo POKEY Sound is also better than SID sound. It's just the level of development. But SID makes it far easier to musicians to create a piece of music.
Regardless whether SID or Atari's Pokey was better, I preferred the sound and music from 8-bit Atari, though maybe it's just a matter of taste. By this I mean also versions of Atari music as compared to the same tracks on Commodore or Amiga. The same applies to the graphics style on Atari 8-bit as opposed to Atari ST, Amiga and Commodore, which was more often less colorful (rather it was often to use shades of the same color on Atari XL / XE), which from time perspective seems to be nicer and more minimalist in a good sense of design, while overuse of colors on Amiga etc. (16-bit era) often broke the graphic design principles. Of course, it's not because of the Atari 8-bit itself, but rather just a matter of coincidence that the games / demos market developed in that way.
Atari ST isn't the real spiritual successor of A8, Amiga is. A8 and Amiga were developed by Jay Miner's team while C64 and ST were Tramiel's children. And it's people who make machines, not company logos. That's why A8/Amiga were ahead of their time, while C64/ST were both price killers of their time. And just before all C64 fans jump at me - it does not necessarily mean A8 is the superior machine but note it was released about 3 years earlier than C64 and yet they still remain 'on-par' machines in their overall capabilities.
Four channels vs three channels on the ST, more waveforms as well so I'd say yes., I prefer the atari 8bit sound to the C64 so I'm probably biased, just find it crisper and clearer c64 always sounds muddy.
+TheYorkMan Ok, here's the list: 1. Five To Five by Mirage (1989) 2. Intro 2 for the Orneta Party (can't find the author name, sorry) (1995) 3. Nemesis by Tomek Liebich & Michael Widera (1990) 4. Rebound (c) 1987 Microvalue 5. Black Lamp (c) 1989 Atari 6. Alien by Tomek Liebich & Michael Widera (1990) 7. Das Omen by German Chaotics (1989) [1] 8. Zybex (c) 1989 Zeppelin Games 9. Bonanza by Code3 (1993) 10. Das Omen by German Chaotics (1989) [2] 11. King of Agregat by Lukasz Sychowicz (1996) 12. Das Omen by German Chaotics (1989) [3] 13. The Top #1 by XL-Soft (1990) [1] 14. Warhawk (c) 1986 Firebird 15. The Top #1 by XL-Soft (1990) [2] P.S. I'll add the additional info like tracks names a bit later, if you need it.
Comparison.. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ioZRUVTKLx0.html They just sound different, sometimes one sounds better sometimes the other. I guess it is preference. What seems odd is some of those games actually had better graphics on the C64. It shouldn't have been that way as the Atari had a much bigger palette.
You are being biased here because apparently you are an Atari Fan which is fine. It looks like you only owned Atari, and not many other computers. All you have to do is search online for MSX games and you will be impressed with the sound and it was way ahead of its time. Just a simple search is all I ask then we can have a serious discussion.
With a cartridge yes but as a kid I couldn't buy FM Pac or Music Module. Am still angry that everyone had C64 with beautiful music and I had a pathetic inferior MSX. Was bullied many times with that, a their C64 they had everything except 80 chars per column. The Moon Sound is incredible yes, but already had Amiga 500 with midi. Then I was bullied by people bragging how inferior the Amiga was by people bragging their superior master PC from their dad.
The AY-3-8910 better than Pokey? Are you having a laugh!!!! 3 pathetic channels - the Atari can also use the GTIA for sound too you know. Some of the music is better than SID on the C64 - but not really seen much excellent music until the modern day sadly!
no way,the c64 cna do the space harrier version in the quality of the remake made for the atari,atari need good programmers its all ,they came 15 years later.the machine its better have the touch of a state off the art engineer JAY MINNER,the creator of AMIGA TOO
Legendary games makers Jeff Minter (Mutant Camels) and Archer McLean(IK+) both said that the Atari 800XL was a far more powerful machine than the C64 and was capable of better audio. In fact, to quote Archer McLean, he said that the 800XL was "seriously clever"
Bullshit. The Commodore 64 SID is way better than the Pokey. POKEY: 4 channels with 8 bit frequency dividers 2 waveforms (noise waveform can use different noise polygons) a high pass filter which doesnt allow configuration SID: 3 channels with 16 bit frequency dividers 4 waveforms + waveform combinations a configureable bandpass filter ADSR curve for each channel ringmodulation configureable pulse width on square waveform Atarists...
Arraying stuff into memory buffer and POKE'ing the hell out of Pokey. Could just barely do rudimentary sound samples too. Some demo disks showed it. (Antic Magazine had a brief 4-second clip of Robert Palmer's "Addicted to Love".) Not that SID doesn't have it's cool features, but Pokey shouldn't be so easily dismissed.
Actually, Pokey had a 2 channel mode with 16 bit true frequency dividers, clocked on 1.79 MHz, it could range from 27 hertz to 1.79 MHz. I have sucessfully transmitted at 895 KHz AM, tones from the second channel, to a nearby AM radio. Also this could be made a 3 channel mode of 2 channels of 8 bit dividers, and one of 16. You could also change the main clock base of the channels to be lower frequencies, resulting in extremely low tones (infrasound). Oh, and somewhere I've got a player program that will do Amiga 4 channel .mod at 5 KHz.
@Luca Antoniazzi: Bullshit, you´re wrong! It´s not a kind of possibillities, than more a kind of skills of the sound programmer to get out all of the soundchip. I like the hard and clear sounds of the POKEY so much more than the spongy sound of the 6581.
