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Early access can be such a double edged sword I think. You can feel like you've played your fill of a game before it's done and then when the "full version" comes out, it might have massively improved and have lots of new content but you'll feel kinda weird going through bits you've already done or seen in a half finished state or whatever.
Yeah, not to mention the risk of devs not finishing the game. Sure you get the game at a cheaper price but I just don't think it's worth the risk of a) scams and b) not wanting to play a game you have already finished. Early access kind of work with repayable games like builders etc
Unfortunately these days you run the risk of the devs not having finished the game regardless of whether it's early access or not (I know it's not a recent phenomenon but feels like it's getting worse and worse)
Personally I think randomly generated levels only really work in non 3D games. Remnant 2 is the best example I've experienced yet of really REALLY good random generation in a 3D game and even that one started feeling copy pasty quite fast. But I've never had that problem with a top down-like game. I just don't think we're at a point yet where randomly generated 3D levels can feel even nearly as good as handcrafted ones.
Not to mention how hard it is, even in top down or side scroller style games it's hard to make good procedural generation. In a 3D space it's almost unheard of if not impossible. It can maybe work if there are rooms, but in a open space? I don't think it'd work so well.
Random terrain is certainly possible, Hyper Light Breaker is aiming for procedural islands and multiple biomes, with POIs being hand-made but still placed by the algorithm. Examples of this what are out right now would be the Space Engineers and No Man's Sky. Another way would be to just have a tile-set of rooms, with doors acting as attachment points and let the algo make a level out of that, Warframe does exactly that, outside of "open world" segments.
I agree. Whenever I hear "procedurally generated" I know it's going to be the same 10-15 rooms again and again, stiched together in different ways and everything starts feeling very samey very fast.
@@isaacarz-gromov8733 Yeah I've played it and it's an amazing game in so many ways and would recommend it to most people, but I honestly think my argument still works for that game. You can absolutely feel the copy paste nature of random generation in it as well. That being said, DRG does have the advantage of being set in caverns and not open air environments. It's easier to hide the procedural stuff in a setting like that.
@@dragonriderabens9761the developer is fully owned by Epic so it may never release on Steam. I’m unaware of any announcements saying it will or won’t though.
That's really the core of Destiny's appeal imo. They made the act of shooting stuff so damn satisfying. The entire rest of the game is just giving you reasons to shoot stuff. I'm glad they tried to emulate Destiny's weapon feedback and handling. But tbh, Witchfire's guns don't feel anywhere near as good as Destiny's. It's not even close. Part of the issue is the way they've designed their enemies. The guns feel way too weak relative the enemy. The feedback isn't really their either. It's definitely not an easy bar to reach. Destiny is basically the gold standard for gun feel and feedback. It's amazing that they have so many guns, and all of them feel great to use. Even the worst feeling gun in Destiny, is significantly better than the majority of guns in other games.
@@e2rqeyalso the sound effects of the guns in Destiny is always amazing! Many people don’t realise or forget how important the sound effects of weapons are, it’s one of my complaints with Warframe the lack of different sound effects on weapons I think Outriders has the same problem!
Love the idea of persistent overworld map so I can master certain combat scenarios, but POIs should be randomized to keep runs feeling fresh. Also agree on the run-to-run diversity feeling lacking and needing a bit of a punch to feel worth chasing. Great preview and looking forward to the full release.
I've played the early access, it really does feel amazing. Learning the map becomes a key part of progression and it's easily one of the best parts of the game so far.
I feel like an obvious fix to the gameplay loop here is to make the difficulty scaling disentangled from the upgrades. I was actually extremely on board for this game before that was mentioned; it sort of defeats the whole point of a roguelike to me, far moreso than the lack of procedural generation or mid-run experimentation. Roguelikes are the games that can really make me feel like a speedrunner, improving not just in the normal way of learning new strategies to clear enemies quickly and more efficiently, but also gaining mechanical benefits to aid in doing so. The addition of an in-game timer in some games just adds to this. In fact, reducing the random elements sound like they will aid even further, as I can memorize precise routing, learn optimal terrain to take advantage of, and I don't have to reset runs based entirely on bad drops very often. However, scaling difficulty being tied to run-persistent upgrades completely kills that feeling. If there's an increasing force always working against me, I can't see the improvements that would be the entire point of this kind of game, and it would just feel like a slog. I would love to be able to clear the original set of enemies with upgrades from 15 hours of playing, doing so with incredible efficiency and alacrity, just power-stomping them. The current system reminds me of open-world games that scale difficulty of all enemies as you get stronger, including the mooks from the starting area, which totally harms the feeling of progression. I don't know how they would make it work narratively, but I would love a system like Heat from Hades to add in more challenge for extra reward. Maybe the Witch's strength waxes and wanes, and the Prayer is choosing to go in at times where her forces are weaker or stronger?
Exactly. Having differing difficulty can be very good, but scaling that's directly tied to progression can make it feel like you didn't actually get stronger. I grew up with JRPGs where level scaling was not a thing, and every part of the game serves as a milestone and point of reference for just how much you've grown. This makes your progress and increase in power tangible. With scaling done wrong, the damage numbers get bigger, but that's about it; essentially only your new gear, build synergies and passives matter, while your level often seems like little more than "numbers are supposed to increase over the course of an RPG, right?"
Having played for 20+ hours, i can tell you scaling is indeed a problem as it is now. You're robbed of the early game experience if you have a few good runs and end up in a way more difficult environement without having learned the basics, i feel the rate at which the world / content inside a level changes should be halved at least for the first zone. The foundations are strong tho, could be a very unique and interesting game down the line if they manage to balance it properly. I dont think the devs want to give the classic "getting stronger as you go" feel as it is implemented now, it's more about having always a good challenge, even if your character is indeed doing triple the dps. It's quite strange for now, but defenitetly has a lot of potential, wait and see !
@@sirzebra I get that, and I also get needing more refinement and balancing. Remnant II is a good example of a game that's consistently challenging; When you enter a new zone, it scales to your level, then stays static unless you reroll the entire campaign. This means you can actually get stronger while exploring the zone. If you feel the need to grind a little to get the edge needed to clear it, you can. It also makes it easier to breeze through while revisiting that zone later if you want to make sure you didn't miss anything. Once you move on, though, the next area scales again so you can't outlevel the new content from the start. It works in that game pretty well, so there are always ways to balance it to work with a specific project, and I hope the Witchfire team can find that equilibrium for their game. It looks promising, but I probably won't pick it up until it's be refined a bit.
@@ryo-kai8587 that remnant system could be very good here, allowing maps to "soft lock" around a bracket of levels could be the sweet spot. You'd have tough difficilty at the start of each level, but could revisit older ones with a real se'se of how much power was gained (even if it barely enough to explore the latest unlocked map) You could then allow "Always on scaling" for older levels as a newgame plus feature instead.
It looks incredible, but definitely see what you're saying about the gameplay loop. Gotta be honest that I would love seeing a version of this as more of a traditional type RPG rather than a rogue-like. Those kinds of games are just more my preference and it looks like it could go either way.
In the end, it's only on the Epic store, so I don't really mind waiting until the full release and a Steam version at the same time. I see that as a win-win.
Same, I heard about this game on a podcast and was very interested until I saw it was only on Epic and for 40€ too. It seems my patience was a good thing.
I really hope this game comes out on Steam. I would really like to avoid installing Epic Games if I can. There's a reason the US government doesn't allow the launcher to be installed on computers with classified information on them. It's CCP spyware.
I think level dependent enemy difficulty is cool on paper but doesn't translate well in gameplay (at least not right now). I'd rather have difficulty based on the class/type of items I have. For example, I leveled up 6 times and already had much higher level enemies stalking the map whereas the research was terribly slower to catch up and items were still locked behind a timer. I shouldnt be able to kill legendary enemies with just two guns and a basic spell. The item rank should be equally rewarding as I face more challenging enemies.
well I made a mistake of having a really good run with a huge amount of witchfire (30k) and level up 5-6 levels from like 6 to 13 ... the game has become completely unplayable after that. Forced to start with new game feels really bad. Imagine you're trying to do a boss run, and while you're fighting the boss the witch decide to call in calamity, you're now fighting the boss, who spawn minions, while having calamity spawn even MORE minions that does absolutely nothing to improve the gameplay. A couple of that and I just decide to call it quit xD
I like the static maps, it allows for learning the land gaining advantages from knowing it. I ran the first map more times than I can count so I could level up and more importantly try to get optimal temp buffs to take on the boss. Great game, just the right amount of difficulty for me.
Same here, and now I've done the same with the second map. I've got everything unlocked and maxed out, more than 2 million Witchfire gained, and I'm still not bored
I much perfer persistent upgrades to "scrambling" as he calls it. Much more satisfying knowing your work will pay of, rather than being shafted on the regular by RNG. Looking forward to this!
I disagree on the maps being monotonous. Much like Hunt: Showdown, the map being the same makes it recognizable. You start to learn the environment and when stuff like the calamity occurs, having the ability to know where you need to go and what the strategy is helps a lot. I think the balance is perfect.
Game looks sick, and the fact that the devs seem to be open to community feedback as you've pointed out gives a lot of hope that they'll be open to some of the suggestions you've made.
Austin is sounding more and more like ralph as the reviews go on. Loving it! If these are his first fortes into reviewing then he's got a bright future ahead!
It’s eerie how much they sound alike. Not just because of the accent but their cadence, rhythm of speaking and general phrasing. I thought this was Ralph for a solid few minutes
@@BiigDaddyDellta I had a quick look and they have put out quite a few updates already which is cool, i do not expect them to keep that pace up but still it is a very promising early sign
I used to be incredibly hyped for this game, ever since they announced it, kept looking forward to it for *years,* long after everyone else forgot it existed. Then one day they announced the game would be a "roguelite", and my hype completely died right then and there, and never came back. I'm sad to say that nothing I saw or heard here changed that.
Honestly, I would've loved if this was a straight up single player shooter. The gunplay looks great and the spells actually look super creative and fun.
Bungie's influence on gaming - shooters in particular - is unrivaled. They were the first to give us so many things and I love that a developer like this isn't trying to shy away from their influences.
I think non-procedural levels could actually be a good thing, if they find other ways to mix up runs. For example certain areas in the map could change, like what was once a flat plain would not how a small village or camp in it, or a once navigable canyon is blocked off, taking familiar hand crafted areas and twisting them to be interesting. I gave two full geometry examples, but there are a lot of other options, like making an area have some kind of blight in some runs but not others, or localized weather events, or a million other interesting twists on the same spaces.
I love the way they changed the rogue-like formula here unlike the reviewer. Its great really and feels fresh. I love to learn the layouts of the levels and use it to my advantage for example. I love there are lots of permanent stuff to unlock. Give it a shot, the gameplay the action is superb. Definitely one of the best fps games out there even in its early access state.
A roguelike with no randomization is a death sentence That just doesnt work dedicated fans might play through your fps campaign 4 times but not if thats the main drive
The portals sound like they COULD be a cool idea, if they weren't just randomly placed. Make them after a boss so you can't spam them and will be potentially suffering in resources. Currently it sounds like it provokes the old adage "given the chance players will optimize out the fun."
if you had played the game, you would understand their actual placement gives them the double edged sword feel : sometimes they are so easy to reach you feel like you should continue further (and risk it all falling in the wrong ambush) and other times you really want to leave but will have to face a tough fight just to manage to extract. Frankly, it's one of the few things that really clicks as it is now. Difficulty is steep and extracting in itself passed the first few xp levels is not something you'll abuse easily.
Hey Austin & ShillUp, I'm really digging Austin's contributions to the channel. Keep it up. You're doing great. Thank you for continuing to publish quality video game content. XOXO, Ian
I got the game after this review! 5 hours in. The gameplay & setting are worth your time. I personally like the static maps. I do get what Austin says about individual runs not feeling varied. I’m liking it. If they deliver updates as promised I’ll be very happy
Sounds like they've got a solid base and seems like this has big potential. Hopefully they get the sales/resources to make the improvements and changes. Love the setting and style.
@15:30 It is $39.99 USD on my store (USA). Looks like a very fun game. I would say it is probably worth the buy-in if one is interested in providing feedback and plans on purchasing the full game at release anyway. I will probably pick it up over the winter after a few updates and other releases out of the way.
Speaking of small Polish studios this channel should definitely cover Against the Storm. A great mix of Rougelike and survival city-builder. They've been killing it in the Early Access.
I am so hyped for this game. Funny enough, even though I love typical rogues, the tweaks the Astronauts have made to the formula is exactly what I want from a game like this: let me unlock and craft a build outside of the dungeon, and then let me throw myself at a brutally difficult gauntlet where my knowledge, build, and skill carries me through. Seems really cool to me, even if it does lack some of the typical roguelite formula. Thanks for the review!
It seems like this game would hugely benefit from having a procedurally generated dungeon type thing, maybe with some modifiers or temporary loot you can get for leveling and farming the currency/mats, then using that to go into the open world area and fight bosses for more major upgrades.
Everything needs a good foundation to grow properly. If we go by games that were in early access for months/years (like Hades and, recently, Cyberpunk 2077) then got released in an amazing state, Witchfire may be something great in the future
I kind of wonder if this game would be better as a more standard linear action game rather than a rogue lite. With an end game challenge mode that is randomized for some replay ability. It looks promising though, I hope it gets a PS5 release.
I would like the calamity to be like a special portal you can summon, if you have achieved something or cleared a number of enemies or whatever. And you should be rewarded with a rare/good powerup and bonus witchfire. high risk high reward. Random enemies spawning in is annoying. (Outside of the normal mobs) Also how to access new areas was a bit convoluded.. i played for a good while before finally googling how to progress in the restricted parts of the map (upgrading gnosis). i shouldnt need to consult the internet on how to unlock stuff or make progress.
I'm sure all this feedback will be very useful for these devs. The high difficulty in early access is good imo. Always overtune until you know what players are willing to endure.
I'm pretty confident is the knowledge that this one of the first builds that is being reviewed, there has been SIX patches since that have made a HUGH difference in early game difficulty
It's a game to keep on the radar for sure, the aesthetic and the gunplay look very impressive. It's going to take time for them to adjust the progression and general loop of things, but I'm imagining that it will be a pretty good time when it goes 1.0
The Calamity needs more variety, booking it to the tornado to shoot swirly skulls once every 5 minutes gets old fast. And wasting your ammo to kill enough mobs to stop it sucks. The minibosses that can spawn are a good step, just need to have some variation with the tornado
On the difficulty thing, as you level up: Seems the game could learn something from Hades, and the Heat system. Just watching this... It seems that leveling up maybe should unlock the *OPTION* to increase the difficulty in various ways. Maybe even having something like the Heat system, where unlocks happen at progressively higher difficulty, but the player gets to choose what things are added to the difficulty.
Agreed! In most (but not all) scenarios I've seen, difficulty scaling tied directly to level just makes it feel like you didn't actually get stronger, the numbers just got bigger. The Heat system addresses that issue very well; without auto-scaling, the content you're familiar with serves as a point of reference for how much you've grown, making your progress tangible and satisfying. Then, you get to up the difficulty deliberately, and you reap rewards tied to it which make it feel worthwhile to pursue.
I've truly never enjoyed and trusted video game content as much as what Austin and ShillUp turn out by themselves every week. It's on a whole different level and they desevre all their success, even when I disagree with their review takes.
I have taken to completely avoiding games in early access, NOT because of a bias against them but because I learned my lesson from Divinity Original Sin. I backed the game on kickstarter and played the hell out of the early access with my GF... probably going through the first chapter like 5 times together. Then when the game actually released neither of us really wanted to do the opening to the game anymore and so we didn't end up playing it. I only was prompted to finally beat the game (alone, since my GF was still not interested) when the second was coming out. That taught me that I personally will have an issue going back to play a game that I played a lot in early access. But respect to the people who play and help improve the game prior to release.
Honestly no clue why they went in the Roguelike direction. This looked like a very promising campaign back in 2017. It used to look dark, unsettling, mysterious. I feel like these elements have all been toned down and I'm really sad, not what I was expecting.
I'm actually a little disappointed to see that they're going for an evolution of the rogue lite genre, I was hoping for a shooter, with a banger campaign and rpg elements regarding spells and weapon upgrades. It seems like they have some of that, so I'll probably keep an eye on it and wait until a steam release.
I seriously love what I'm seeing here. It has so much of what I love wrapped up into one and is stunning visually. The only thing I'm really left wondering on is the whole "roguelite for people that hate roguelites." It just seems like such a stupid thing to say let alone to market your game on or to hold as a design goal. The roguelite genre has a massive audience, and I'm sure this game will still draw a lot of them even with that self imposed moniker.. but I just can't help but wonder how much better this game could be if it just embraced some more traditional roguelite design staples alongside their more unique ones. Imagine a dark souls difficulty and imposing boss battles, with a bit of vermintide/darktide frenetic gameplay, the dark and oozing Gothic beauty of what they have here, and a risk of rain 2 style gameplay loop in conjunction with their meta progression spell weapon and item upgrades etc. That's the game I want! Definitely gonna check it out anyway and I'll reserve judgement until then, but I can't help but already feel like this is so close to my ideal FPS roguelite but just a little bit off in quite a few ways. Definitely excited to see how it pans out.
Sometimes early access can be a gamble, but one thing is for sure and that’s the simple fact of early access being only but a slice of the games full potential pie of content to offer. This game looked so dope in the trailer and gameplay looked amazing, I hope full release brings something more worth while. 🤞
I'm proud to say I can finally tell the difference between Austin and Skillup's voices now. I feel accomplished in this achievement, and am confident I can successfully differentiate Australians by voice in the future.
These are some of the devs that made Bulletstorm and one of my favorite FPS action games of all time, Painkiller. Hoping it gets polished up and perfected.
From watching this review, I think they should lean harder into the extraction shooter. A single big map, a variety of enemies scattered in different zones, each with their own visual identity, with more danger the longer you hang around. I actually think destiny needs a mode like that, and this seems like a great way to do it
Witchfire feels like you’re running around a destiny patrol zone trying to find relic iron. The shooting is great, but everything else gets old so fast.
I'm probably gonna wait for this game to (hopefully) arrive on Steam, not because I'm adverse to EGS but I'd like to have most, if not all my games in one library.
Sort of surprised to find out its a roguelite having not heard about it since its original (and fantastic) trailer. I kind of figured it'd pseudo open with Doom Eternal like levels. Not against the idea of non-procedural levels (Risk of Rain 2 handles that well enough) especially if there are maybe alterations to the landscape like outposts etc.
AUSTIN - buy a Vornado, best thing I ever bought for Aus summers. It’s 10x better than a normal fan, circulation around the room is awesome. also great video :)))
As someone who's not a huge fan of Roguelikes/lites, this game sounds really appealing. It sounds like The Astronauts have succeeded in making a Roguelite for people who hate Roguelites. :)
I played it for 15h and I think applying the word roguelite to witchfire is misleading. I think a very close comparison (in terms of structure) is returnal, a game with random elements, but still mostly linear, like a Halo campaign, that's how I view witchfire now. I (and others) suggested on the discord an alternate, fully roguelike, gamemode for that sweet replayability. But yeah, 9 people (12 working on the game but the astronauts is 9 people) only have so much time, we'll see what they prioritize when they release the roadmap. Still, I dont see how the game is not recommended, I had a pretty good 15hours, I will come back to it from time to time, the team is very reactive and transparent, releasing 7 meaningful patches already (mostly bugfixes and QoL, the game had a LOT of minor bugs) in 2 weeks. I feel like I got a nice trade already. Btw, there is no lever action in the game rn, the rifle is bolt action.
Really good review. I agree that the fun bit of a roguelike is the crazy synergies you can get going during a run. Sounds like it's missing the mark right now for me, but I hope they get things figured out!
you really nailed all my complaints. Under all that is an incredible foundation tho and I cant wait to see how it turns out. Also wtf were they thinking with this healing system? I stopped playing after a few hrs cuz I had no heals, couldnt find any herbs on the map and faced with hours of pointless grinding for healing items or playing with no heals ever, i just decided to come back and hope they change it later. I hated farming blood vials in bloodborne and this is even worse than that. Also I made the mistake of leveling before doing any research and now im expected to face down wardens with the starter pistol, the shockwave spell and no heals. No thanks.
Every time I see the term rogue like I have to give a game hard pass. I get that this is the trend now but it’s just not for me. Maybe I’ll never be good enough for these games because I’d take persistent progression any day of the week over losing everything. Since of place and environment storytelling will always be better than randomised generic level pieces in my book. For what it’s worth the devs did a great job with the look of this game.
Dude, I’m so in love with the idea of a roguelike that doesn’t have procedurally-generated levels. This game sounds rad as hell, and I hope it comes to console once it leaves early access.
Exactly how I felt playing the game. After 10 hours playing, I managed to hit lvl 20 but then got stuck with enemies and events way too strong with barely any way to gain power. All I could do is farm 2-5 enemies then portal out for a few % research progression.
That audience might actually be me. This whole game sounds like a fun time. I'll wait for the final release, but I've been excited about this game since it's announcement.
the overworld map sounds interesting for a rouge-like, but the lack or randomization really screams "bandit camps" to me... I'm hoping this is good at launch (or whenever it's not exclusive to epic anymore haha). I'd probably check it out on a sale, but I don't think it scratches the rouge-like itch.
Hey SkillUp, Austin crying for help, get this man an aircon for his studio! They should have made this more like Vermintide in structure, it sounds like the larger open maps absolutely hurt the experience. I was interested in this, but that doesn't sound very appealing yet, let's see where it lands.
I feel like they should take a leaf out of the infinity blade series. Make the re-running part of the story that increases the difficulty instead of the levelling system and make there be multiple locations to end the run have some surprises when you revisit them. Maybe a new path opens up or a new boss appears who you're not ready to face.
Risk of Rain 2 also does rogue-lite with static maps, but the format of it's systems means that there is some amount of randomisation as to what map you will be taken to next. The whole thing about having a rogue-lite but you don't lose your cool equipment on death feels like "eating your cake and having it too". As a fundimental design decision seems like a flawed way to go. At what point does it just become a stunted single-player campaign at that point? The current level-up systems don't seem to make up for what is lost by stripping the majority of the parts that make rogue-lites fun.
When the narrative doesn't wholly jive with the recommendation. I'm looking forward to this project. Hopefully, they're able to iron out the wrinkles. Fingers crossed!
pretty BRUTAL title on this video for an early access. if i didnt watch the video, id never even think bout playing this game [i wasnt planning to but now i know i never will], then this title ALONEA would lmk im good
