One very small correction to this video: the NSW signal on the right at 04:14 shouldn't have the small red light illuminated under the main light. This is just a mistake I made in the graphics: on the real one it's only lit when the signal is at Stop. A few people came to the comments section to extensively tell me off about this - one of them even went on to describe the entire NSW signalling system all over again just in case. (My video on that here: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-dK1_35OGQh4.html ) Anyway, hopefully these people can now rest easy!
As a NSW driver my blood pressure rises when I try to fathom Victoria's signalling system. The colour red should never be used as a full clear, it defies logic from early childhood
As a driver in Melbourne I can understand what you are saying. Just treat the red in conjunction with other colours as speeds. ie green over red is clear normal speed. Red over green is clear medium speed. It makes sense once you learn it but can understand coming from Sydney where green over red means next signal at stop (if I remember correctly)
I believe it's similar to the NZ system. A red on the lower signal is the same as that head not being present. Although all Vic signals have two heads anyway whereas NZ usually omits them unless they actually need to show the complex aspects (e.g. on approach to junctions). Red over red just means red - stop. Yellow over red is a single yellow - Caution Normal Speed, expect next signal to be at stop. Green over red is the same as single green. Clear, Normal Speed, expect next signal to also allow normal speed. This has the advantage that a failed or obscured lamp makes the signal equally or more restrictive, although there are cases where medium speed aspects could appear to be normal speed in that situation.
@@topher1976au I live in Lilydale, that explains why I've never seen a amber over anything except in ringwood. By the way I haven't seen it done there for a while also.
Fair rundown on NZ signalling, Someone. It's a good video (and a great subject for discussion). As an engineman who's operated in NZ, the Pilbara, WA, SA, and NSW, and has required to be familiar in subsequent career roles with QLD and VIC, I thought the Pilbara could have been added for further comparison... the GCOR having formed the basis of the original iron ore railroads (which are now much-evolved). The NZ CTC system (also now evolved since privatisation) might have also been described a bit more since there's been such a movement of enginemen from NZ to Australian systems over the last 50 years; in that sense rendering NZ as another 'Australasian state'. One other aspect (sorry) that might deserve description because it might help to explain some of the differences is the 'route signalling' versus 'speed signalling' difference.
@@NullaNulla Because there isn't really a 'primary', and the lower signal doesn't necessarily mean anything about the next signal. Over red = read the top on its own. Red over = read the bottom on its own, limited to medium speed. Yellow over green = reduce to medium speed at next signal. That's it. Three rules and you're there. NZ adds a few special options - flashing yellow on top is advance caution, and a flashing lower unit means intermediate speed instead of medium speed, because our medium speed is only 25km/h.
One thing to note - on all interstate lines the "transition zone" if you like either side of the border is standardised 2 position signalling. This was a deliberate effort to mitigate any potential confusion when passing over state borders.
NSW Signalling is a way of talking to the driver on the condition ahead. Once learnt it makes sense. The top tells you immediately ahead and the bottom tells you what’s after that.
Which is just the opposite of Polish signaling, where they use a five roundel vertical head, the top two tell you the future aspect, center is red, and bottom two (plus sometimes a separate horizontal bar under that) tell you the current aspect.
Being from Qld I find the nsw system interesting... in Qld we use Junction indicators/route indicators attached to the signal to indicate which route is to be taken, which leaves the 1 colour light signal to tell you your authority plus the next signal aspect... it's fascinating to me to have 2 signals to show something that can basically be done with 1 signal, at least that's the way I see it from a Qld point of view 😅
WA signaling is by far the most simple, based on the uk system. Green clear, yellow next signal red, red stop. On the faster routes there will be 2 yellow signals before a red.
@@witzendoz you have stated that the signalling system employed in WA is similar to what is used in the UK. I have said NSW is similar in this regard as the signalling systems used in this state are also closely based upon those used in the UK. To say they are "nothing" alike is wrong. I recommend checking out a website called Railsafe and searching for NSG-600 "running signals".
Well, this is awesome! I never really grasped why I found Australian train signaling to be so hard to figure out and learn, but this makes it very clear (no pun intended). Thanks!
I know the Victorian system well enough. And by extension SA's as it's more or less the same. Did some testing work for the Gawler electrification project earlier this year and finally got to see a flashing yellow aspect. Fun stuff
In South Australia a flashing yellow means expect to take a divergent route at the next signal and that the next signal is either showing yellow or green. A solid yellow means next signal is at stop or as it is called in SA ‘danger’
Germany also has several signalling systems. The difference is not just between East & West Germany, but also because newer systems have not completely replaced older ones. Thankfully all these systems were designed in such a way that if two aspects look the same, they will also mean the same thing.
If there was ever a need for standardisation, this is it. I suppose that there is too much rivalry between the states for that to happen, though. Simplicity is often the key to safety- the more complication, the more to go wrong.
There's no real need for standardization. If it doesn't cause any problems, it's not broken. The United States has many more different signal systems in small areas and, for the most part, those don't cause any problems either. If you want to look at a country that did start out disparate and then standardized, check out Canada.
Victoria also had another kind of green over red, but with a meaning similar to NSW. That was with 2-position semaphore signals with a red distant arm under a home arm where each was controlled by different signalboxes (if my understanding is correct). Pretty sure there are none of those still in use today though.
Last semaphore on a suburban line I can recall was Eltham but that's since been removed. There was also one still in use until recently on the VIC/NSW mainline on the way to Albury but that got decommissioned last year I think
The flashing yellow signal colour you've shown in NSW is in a failure state as the red marker light is on. A red marker light on any signal other than a main red indication indicates the signal has failed.
That's a mistake on my part - I wrongly assumed that light would stay on like the small lower lights on victorian signals do. The signal was at stop in the original photograph.
@@Taitset All good, simple error. I've struck 3 signals so far with the marker light illuminated, plus another couple where all the lights are out Not bad for 30+ years on the job. Plus NSW has a Green over Pulsating Yellow, called a preliminary Medium, or 1¾, next signal would be a Green over Yellow - Medium or 1½ indication.
The Victoria-South Australia signalling system appears most familiar to that used by American freight rail company CSX, with the Florida-based Distant Signal RU-vid man explaining more in his April 2016 video "How To Read CSX Signals (SBD Sys) PART 1." Ian Juby, at one time a railroad engineer in Canada where he still lives, claimed of railway signals in that country, for heavy rail, being similar to those used by CSX ("Railroad Signals, reading and meanings, part 1: The basic three light system"). The British railway signals of green, double-yellow, single-yellow and red, appear simpler to understand given that the double-yellow -> the signal after that is a single yellow, with the single yellow indicating the need to be ready to stop at the next signal.
Personally, as someone from Melbourne, I think the NSW and QLD systems seem the best. Maybe because I like the British system, but I think it just makes sense
Although the Victorian system takes its inspiration from US systems, for all intents and purposes it is basically exactly the same as Queensland's system just with different ways of displaying the same thing. Green on red is the same as QLD green. Red on red is the same as QLD red. Yellow on red is the same as QLD Yellow. And although Yellow on green in VIC means something slightly different to Double Yellow in QLD their applications are pretty much identical. Red on Yellow is basically QLD's Special caution signal, the only one that is without comparison is red on green which is still fairly easy to understand.
With Victorian two-position signalling, you could have the situation at ahead of points where two signals were mounted on the same post, with the top arm (or light) being the left-hand route straight ahead and the bottom arm being the diverging right hand route. If you were going straight ahead, you could travel at line speed, but if diverging you had to travel at medium speed because of the diverge. So, even though each signal was to be read separately, "green over red" effectively meant normal speed and "red over green" effectively meant medium speed. Three position signalling gives the same indication, even though the two lights or arms are to be read together. This would have saved confusion where you had both systems in use.
One thing I noticed when I first moved to Melbourne was the suburban lines all had two head signals where's the country lines all appeared to have single head signals.
All depends on the safeworking system used. Only a small section of Frankston has 2 position signals with remainder of electrified network being 3 position.
@@Taitset There is a lot more now than when I moved to Melbourne. You'd pass the last suburban station and it would go for I'm single to double head. It was like a line had been drawn in the um ballest
As an SAR fan the speed system is familiar to me. As far as I know it originated in Montreal and was adopted by the SAR in 1913 when Adelaide railway station trackage was rebuilt, as such it preceded the appointment of W.A. Webb in the early 1920s who introduced USA practices to the state. Route signaling as applied in British practice using a different arm for every route was a consequence of mechanical interlocking, is unnecessary with relay interlocking. All a driver needs to know is how fast to go not the route and then remember the appropriate speed. NSW signaling is anachronistic with route signaling and every signal needs two heads to display, clear, caution or stop. I admit green over red and red over green might be difficult for some to comprehend but a single red or double red still means the same thing so no real confusion. Add into the mix the permissive indication used on both country and suburban system in SA and in Victoria and our far eastern friends will really have a fit.
Qld also has a flashing green aspect that signals transition from RCS territory to other safe working signalling - esp if travelling into Dark Territory.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a major issue with double-light (like the double-yellow in QLD) signaling that it's not fail safe? I guess in the case of QLD where they're both displaying an "expect to stop" aspect it might be a little bit different but I know in places like Sweden, a single flashing green aspect has a completely different meaning to a double flashing green signal. So if one of the two flashing green lights stops working for whatever reason... an issue could occur.
I think it can potentially be an issue on some systems, but in most cases one missing light just creates a more restrictive aspect anyway- ie the QLD double yellow is fine, because if one is out then it's a single yellow: which would make the driver prepare to stop. For the Vic and NSW systems both lights are always lit, so if one was missing the driver would be able to tell there was a fault.
Very interesting video! In my home country, I believe there are still some small signalling differences between former East and West Germany, but of course it's not as different: it came from a common source, diverged slightly and was then unified again
No, that not true. Interesting we use exact five different system in the Federal Republic of Germany. First the old GDR (East Germany is a wrong word for this country - it is north of Bavaria!) system and the new system, then the old FRG system and the new system and the European system for ICE and EC trains. But as locomotive driver do you learn all at school and by practice very easy - then all same color have the same meaning different to the Australian system. A big difference: We drive normally on the right side but around 80% or 85% are double signalled from both sides so that the train can go on left side too. All modern locomotives copy the signal and info inside the train locomotive so that the driver can see it easier at more as 160 km/h speed.
Another weird aspect I’ve found about Adelaide metro is whenever trains are scheduled to arrive at stations a green signal is shown, but once it’s departed it changes to red. I think it’s supposed to be a system of block wiring similar to model train automative control before DCC. Interesting little quirk but it works. Express trains ride through stations all clear on red signals which I guess means pass through stations at a slightly reduced speed. I think it’d be more logical if the colours were reversed
On almost every signalling system, the signal drops to red as the train passes it - that's how it protects against following trains. If the signal is automatic it will go green again once the train is far enough ahead, of it's a manually controlled signal it might not be cleared until the next train is actually due. As for express trains running through on reds, you might be missing something there! Adelaide does have an aspect where the signal remains red but has a white junction indicator displayed underneath it. But if you're seeing a train passing a red signal at speed, I would say it's a signal that doesn't apply to that train - ie it's probably for another track. Which location are you talking about?
@@Taitset also a train can pass a permissive signal on red. The train has to stop, wait one minute, the proceed as slow speed, such that the stopping distance is half visual distance, and no greater than 25kmph. Also there are instances where a train and be cleared to proceed past a signal on a 'verbal caution order" I believe it is called. This is used where there is a fault in the system.
Also on Qld flashing yellow it means that: The points ahead are set for a conflicting movement and/or there is rail traffic in the next immediate section, there are shunt movements on an adjacent line or level crossing protection hasn't activated 😄
"...each colony chose its own standards for construction and operations, with little or no thought for compatibility with neighbouring systems." When New South Wales, Victoria, and South Australia were planning railways, despite the vast distances between the capitals and the inability to foresee the future, they actually _did_ get together to agree at least on a gauge. New South Wales was perhaps a bit more advances, and their Irish engineer recommended the Irish gauge of 5'3". Victoria and South Australia agreed to follow suit. and ordered equipment. The Irish engineer was then replaced with an English engineer who convinced the authorities to adopt standard gauge, but when this was conveyed to the other states, they stuck with the original plan given the equipment that they had already ordered.
Many railroads in the US are a mishmash of different signalling systems due to the number of mergers and the historical freedom railroads were given in creating their signalling systems. At least we have the benefit here though of the operating rulebooks, so you'll almost never encounter a Vic/NSW type situation where the same aspect will convey highly different meanings.
It's still weird, from an outsider's perspective, that Australian states have such a large degree of autonomy. Especially when the pandemic hit and state borders were closed. Here in Europe, we use standard gauge throughout, except on the Iberian peninsula, Ireland (which is an isolated system), Finland and the former Soviet states. Regarding signalling, would it make any sense to introduce ERTMS, or a variant thereof like the Chinese did? Every country in Europe has its own system, but there are efforts to harmonise these. Especially international high-speed trains benefit from this. Obviously, Australia is more or less the size of Europe, but with a fraction of the population and of the rail network, so the answer would probably be "no".
One thing about Australia is that there is only a single line connecting each state (at the moment), and each is long enough that it can't be worked in a single shift, so in terms of crewing at least there is a bit of natural separation, unlike in Europe where it's possible to drive through several countries in a single shift. Getting NSW and VIC to cooperate on anything is very hard. Although in recent years both have adopted a digital train radio system which is fully compatible as far as I can tell.
The thing you have to remember for track gauge is, they started up their rail networks prior to merging together, in basically completely independent systems with no connection to each other.
The autonomy is a holdover from Federation. As part of the agreement to form a single nation, under a Federal Government, each state, or colony at the time, wanted to maintain the same, or similar, level of self governing they enjoyed as separate colonies. Thus it continues to this day, 121 years later, despite the many issues it causes.
Even though it seems like Australia is one country, it's not really. It's a federation of states, which are virtually countries in their own right. They ceded some powers to the federal government, but only a limited amount
@@WillKemp Fair enough. Put it this way: the USA are always beating their drum about being different states, but the Australians aren't. I also can't imagine internal borders getting closed in other federations such as the USA or Germany. Heck, most of the Schengen borders remained open during the pandemic.
Important to note is that Flashing Yellow in QLD means that the next signal is at stop but there is no overlap (thus the speed restriction). We also handle conflicts between NSW/QLD signalling in Brisbane Suburban Area principles with standard gauge routes in dual gauge areas not being able to set warner routes (Flashing Yellow aspect) - so at a locking level a standard gauge train may not be given a proceed aspect until the overlap is clear and able to be locked, where a narrow gauge train is fine to be cleared up to a red without an overlap! There's entire videos you could make on the world of QLD signalling - as we're split between BSA and Regional principles.. so.. uh.. twice the fun?
@@Taitset feel free to reach out if you do or need a run through of anything! i have some simulations covering some of the more interesting principles - like dual gauge, complex overlaps, level crossing and regional principles. I could also help explain some of the more interesting complexities of signalling design through commissioning, and always willing to help more people get interested in my field!
Yeah, it's absolutely insane - and at least partly deliberate. However, the first railways in each state were small systems a very long way from anywhere else. While they generally knew what was being done in other states and sometimes deliberately did the opposite, they probably couldn't imagine there would ever be a connection between the systems. It's only within the last two decades that all mainland Australian capital cities have been connected by standard gauge railways. Although each state's rail gauges remain mostly different from each other.
I think it would be worth going into some details as to why the signal aspects are the way they are. Victoria, in particular, has this weird mismash of British and American concepts and seems to embody the worst ideas of both. The repeater signals seem kind of pointless because there are two ways of indicating Expect Stop and Expect Clear Normal Speed. A fixed sign next to the first three position signal stating "Begin three position signalling" would have been far simpler. The NSW double light system has a logic to it, and the single light system also is consistent in its indication. NSW signalling is complicated by the need to indicate routes rather than speeds, and the huge number of subsidiary aspects.
Yeah totally. To cover it all in depth would probably take hours! I've also always wondered why repeater signals are like they are, seems an odd way of doing it.
I'm wondering what this "American signaling" system is. Offhand I can think of at least three different ones used on mainline railroads in different parts of the country, not to count the aspects used by various metro passenger railroads. The US had much the same history as Australia -- separate railroads that had their own rules, signaling systems, and conventions. Train crews only ran on home rails, with a few exceptions, so only had to know one set of aspects. There is a widely used base set of rules, the GCOR, but this is a prototype set of rules that is then adopted by each road and modified for local conditions. A lot of the Eastern areas have their own rule bases that aren't completely compatible with the GCOR.
Look up Canadian Railway signalling if you want to get an idea of how it makes sense. It can be a bit difficult to get your head around because it is fundamentally a different way of doing things.
@@lwilton I didn't refer to any specific American system, but the concept of speed signalling originated there, and the VR and SAR systems have clear American influence.
@@Taitset Unfortunately the Victorian system is a bespoke system based loosely on the American speed signaling method whilst doing a straight copy/paste of SA's regs. NSW, Qld and WA are based more on the British route signaling and each are, or have, introduced elements of ETCS v2. It's an absolute mess, especially when trying to explain it to an undergrad that you are trying to coerce into a signaling career 🤣🤣
why not use something like: red: stop, yellow red: reduce next red, yellow: normal speed (or medium) next y ovr r, green yellow: normal speed next yellow, and add some white or blue signal to indicate the driver that he is going to take a divergion.
Nice one. I liked that punch line - So far no incidence due to these different aspect signalling . By the way , has it ,any time ,the services between the states were affected ,due to non availability of Interstate drivers ?
Generally drivers will be qualified for all routes that their depot operates, so this would only happen on the Sydney suburban network, where crew can sometimes be reassigned on the fly due to service interruptions.
I'm not Australian, I'm American, and it's infuriating how signal systems here are not endemic to a specific region or state. Instead, they're specific to EACH RAILROAD. That means that in Los Angeles for example, you'd have individual signal systems for the Union Pacific, BNSF, and Metrolink that a locomotive engineer and conductor working for ANY RR there has to be current in before being let out onto the main line. Amtrak engineers who work south out of Washington DC have to be qualified on as many as FIVE different signal systems and many of them will run their trains over each of those five systems in a single trip. It's utterly ridiculous.
Huh. Not involved in railways at all here, so not qualified to judge.... but every example signal in NSW made sense to me. The others though seemed mostly illogical.... Very much enjoying learning from your content. 🙂
The British/QLD system is fairly simple: Red - stop Yellow - one block of track before a red Double yellow - two blocks of track before a red Green - three or more blocks of track before a red. In the UK there is no flashing aspect. Speed is not communicated through the use of signals.
My stomping ground in South Australia, I also go into Victoria. NSW signals make no sense to me whatsoever. I guess it all depends on where your first network was. I've also worked with in cab signalling which is a godsend
I don't really like the NSW system personally. It's the most-detached from what one expects on traffic signals. For example: 🔴Red - Stop 🟡Amber - Proceed on diverging route 🟢Green - Proceed on main route ══════════════════════════ 🔴Red - Expect _Stop_ 🟡Amber - Expect _Caution_ 🟡Flashing Amber - Expect _Medium_ 🟢Green - Expect _Clear_
@Woodsy3211 Amber, meaning caution. Up until a decade or two ago, it was always called amber. Since then for the uneducated yellow has appeared as with the colour amber in different pages of the Queensland Transport website. Amber is the colour of beer until it's passed out, then it's yellow.
I think that you find that in NSW the green over yellow means caution to bring the train under control and that the next signal will will be a green over red, the green over yellow and the green over red are not the same.
If things are simple and won't cost too much money in the long run, you know politicians won't adopt the idea. It's about time that all the state government departments on the mainland get together and create one signalling system, and educate the drivers in the standard signalling...but there is too many dogheaded people in the rail transport systems around Australia will think their's is the only signalling system worth using...until you get rid of that egotism, nothing will get done. I know someone will say "Oh but each state has different requirements to other states". Bull. I know now retired interstate rail drivers who have been pushing for a uniform signalling system since the 50's. But to date no one, at the top, is willing to take on that idea. Once again, Taitset, you have brought up some great points, which must be touching a few raw nerves with some former rail employers..if thats the case, never let those also dog headed people have anything to do with unifying anything.
NSW signals are certainly simpler and more intuitive to understand, but Victorian signals ultimately have the benefit of being more precise and information dense with fewer or the same number of lights. The Victorian system (or, at least, the system used in North America on which Victorian signals are based) was created by replacing old semaphore arms with electronic lights used in the same configuration and can indicate the maximum authorized speed, traffic state of the line ahead, and route alignment with just two or three lights.
It’s wrong to say gauge differences “were given little or no thought”. The tragedy, farce and stupidity is that by the time the Australian colonies were building railways the issue was well already known and attempts were made to come to an agreement before hand and they did … before changing their minds. (It was Shields fault either!) Their colonial masters in London has passed the Gauge Act in 1844 to resolve the problem in Britain but they didn’t follow through with the own colonies who then decided two gauges wasn’t enough so they used three!!! Arrrggggghhhhh. Essential reading “The myth of the Standard Gauge: Rail gauge choice in Australia, 1850-1901" JA Mills 2007 PhD Thesis at Griffith University pages 269 It’s available online for free. I cannot recommend it highly enough.
Yes, I've learned a lot about this topic since I recorded that voiceover! John Wilson, of SARlines railway books (author of 'The Overland, A Social History and others), is in the process of writing a modern book covering the topic in depth. I've had some small involvement in its production, and I believe it will be an excellent book.
