Automated Trains Commence On London Undergrounds' Subsurface Railway 

@Ady P James said he was disgusted by this and 'ran' away. Gordon found out he was able to file for a redo turning him into a modern powercar. James was later found dead.

And Percy and Toby were found in there sheds covered in graffiti and Edward is now a museum piece that children climb all over

And then the Conductors jobs (George, Ringo, and Alec) was taken over by automation, rendering them redundant; so Sir Tapham Hatt fired them all as a cost cutting measure. Where George went on to become addicted to crack; Ringo had a not so successful career as a solo artist; and Alec went on to become a famous actor; and Sir Topham Hatt eventually got diabetes, and had to have his leg amputated.

This thread is gold

Technically you could fit Thomas with ATP . ATS and ATO are sadly not compatible.

It can still run on CBTC but obviously not automatically

Instead of coal, engines will be converted to burn silicon.

@@forza223bowe5 No chance of that happening I am afraid.

liquid coal

People are still using trains and what's more important people are still paying. No development whatsoever!!

Something went wrong with the system. The card reader shows that I ride bus service 532 as I ride bus service 851e.

Hey thats what happened in hk a few months ago lol

The undergound system in UK is far behind countries like japan or China we have the one of the shittest underground system in the world besides the USA

@@crownjohn6666 That's because we've had for longer than anyone else.

Saajidh that’s not something you can proud of like you were the colony for almost the whole world also for the fucking cross rail been build for over damn 10 more years and cost over billions still not finished when Japan and China can build less than two years.There are nothing to be proud of the UK underground system its dirty and outdated tech also they don’t even fucking a aircon on the train where in other Asian They has them all.

It would make sense, but contacts are tended to the cheapest bidder

Funny to think there was a time when there was certain rolling stock that could truly use the entire Underground network, as long as there were the third and fourth rails, it would work!

The control system for the Victoria Line was (and maybe still is) coded in Ada. At the time, it was the only programming language that was also certified for the nuclear industry. Noting that the only accidents in that industry have human causes, lḿ happy to ride in a train controlled by Ada!

Unfortunately Thales' CBTC seems to have made the trains' braking curves at platforms less efficient (i.e. slower) - causing journey times to increase

The Hammersmith & City Line was originally treated on the Tube map as part of the Metropolitan Line up until 1990.

I think it will eventually

I hope so too. Absolutely hate it when there is red signal every single minute

Wing Sin Nothing new there. I was on one on Wednesday, and it was a wonderful stop start journey between St Pancras and Baker Street

CS7C3DLazyGuy222 Problem is with the sub surface lines, they share tracks with other lines and there is too many trains

Its run by APEs 🤣

Why's that?

Dónal O'Flynn no idea, I just know that railwaymen get really annoyed if you refer to them as amber!

Suspect it comes from the colour of the arm of a semaphore distant signal (which obviously predate colour lights) which were of course yellow.

Depends where you are, in most places around the world the light's colour is Amber but people still call it yellow. In Sydney for example, they are amber lights, but most people call them yellow. (I am pretty sure the correct term is amber though).

In the UK the correct term is yellow.

Nai-Cheng Yang London Underground has already switched both the Northern and Jubilee line, it should be no problem for them

The Underground has been running at least one form of automatic operation for over 50 years, the first being the Woodford-Hainault section of the Central line in the 60s which was converted as a trial in anticipation for the Victoria Line, which was the first fully automatic line in 1968.

What happens if the train fails to read the RFID tag?

Forza223 Bowe They stop

@@agent_605 Interesting I knew about the Victoria line, not the trial run on the Central line before it.

D stock? is there a test train still about?

I think in the intolerable areas, S stock will have to drive manually. I can’t see CBTC communicating with old signals

Forza223 Bowe That happened while Paris Metro Line 1 was automated. Manual and automatic trains where running together

QuarioQuario54321 It won’t work CBTC overlaid over old signals, I remember when the Jubilee line had a the dual fitted area, it totally failed and was scrapped

Where exactly was this dual area?

You are not from the UK then? UK and London Underground train drivers are not low paid!

London Underground drivers, are not low paid, they are paid very well actually. Lower skilled migrants, don’t drive trains

DistrictDriver I did work experience on the Jubilee line before ATO and it was so much better driving the train. Once it went ATO, it became almost like a Toy train it didn’t feel real if you get want I mean

DistrictDriver Move the the Bakerloo then, it’ll seemingly be the last line that will be manually run.

QuarioQuario54321 The Waterloo and city line is still manually driven too

I wonder if they will have manual driving at times once the whole line goes CBTC?

So is the aim to eliminate human drivers ?

I was there but short on time - had to rush to get back to my hotel to get my bag and go to the airport to catch my flight home. This explains the awful picture. I would like to return and if I do then I will aim to get some better images and publish on Wikipedia using a CC0 copyright.

@@CitytransportInfoplus hopefully when you are back to HK, there will be an actually law that's not so loopholey for the china side to use, and also impact foreigners that heavy ( search YT on the so-called "hong kong riot")

what worries me is China sending in the army, perhaps followed by a 1989 Tiananmen Square event where many were killed (exact numbers unknown - could have been thousands)

The drivers aren't being replaced, they are still there to monitor the system

To talk about the dwell after arriving, I don't know if its the same situation or not but here in the US, WMATA in Washington DC does the same thing. I think its used as a safety precaution to ensure the train is properly berthed and gives the driver a second to check everything but I could be wrong.

Along with Fr'isco and NYC, DC indeed came to mind when noticing those dwells he filmed. Our '70s fleet's programmed to open its doors in the platform once speed brakes to ⅕MPH..the reverse dwell if you will happens in that I won't step onto the moving train (my foot'll hover one or two seconds as though I were a stork), although stepping off one's never a problem..the speed threshold on our Azurs, however, is lower, seemingly at ⅒MPH. However, I'd bet that our forthcoming driverless REM - the complementary suburban metro à la DLR - is quite likely to have such precautionary dwells programmed into its software.

​@@trainrover Basically REM will be like the newly opened Sydney métro. Alstom trains and Alstom Urbalis signalisation. This is how it will work. The videos show there are a few glitches for the all-new system, but overall it works well. After the opening phase glitches and bugs are solved, and the ATO is adapted to local conditions of traffic and train load. So for now videos don't show how exactly it will be in normal conditions. As for dwell times, the Paris fully automated system from 1998 has small dwell times. According to wikipedia, SAET allows opening of the doors only if the train is stopped and the position is within the 25 cm margin (up to 1.45 m margin is technically possible, in that case manual emergency doors are used - but it never happens). The trains have to stop to calculate the distance. I personally think it is too long. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-gq2X2DfEa3s.html

@@datboi04 Oo la! :great_blushing: 1 8 3 5 , huh? Anyhow, I ought to adjust my closed captioning at 0:46 within ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-n4FiBMq1mvI.html , hadn't I, because in the l o n e touristy remark I've been inferring that all of that brand's wax museums must have shut. Much like the crummily unpolished(!!!!) state of the Mallard _Dominion of Canada_ we exhibited here for years on end before its being oceanically shipped back to GB just several years ago, the layers of dust cloaking Mme Tussaud's wares over here did indeed mightily appall me back in the day.

@@paname514 The aspect about the REM that n o b o d y is addressing is its ice and snow mitigation measures. Being lumped on us on- and off-islanders here by crookedly meddlesome corporateers, it yet pains me to admit my bearing little if any faith into the system they're hurriedly building us here. I've just now come from learning that Sydney had to shut its metro line because of their crappy Metropolis fleet damaging the tracks, much like our Azurs did either one or two years ago, which - by the way - still hasn't been either fully rectified or resolved here (earlier this month, the Azur I was riding hit the track bed really fucking hard at rounding the mild, outside bend from Papineau to Frontenac..loads of apprehensive frowning crazily ensued on our unnecessarily crowded train there, believe me you). Miami's Peoplemover's trackbed is grilled, why couldn't the REM's be similarily grilled, i.e., toward where would the (driverless?!!) trackbound snowblowers toss their removals from, e.g., the miles' and miles' worth of elevetad segment? Sapporo and Sofia transparently cover their els, why couldn't we, because surely it would've still been yet cheaper than tunnelling, no? Me, I reckon ice'll be more the REM's nemesis than snow, e.g., with the platform screen doors..we'd better ready ourselves for much retrofitting sometime after its commissioning..overall, it r e e k s of 'craftily' planned obsolescence. What about exceptionally windy days along the even more-pronounced elevation to the new miles-long Champlain bridge replacement, i.e., just how many weeks must it take to upright and haul away blown-over wagons were the operator to choose to not limit the river crossings? :sigh: Moments at handwringing like this make me miss those elegantly stylish CO/CP trains that plied the District Line past our backyard..bring back solid state, pleeeeez.. .. . .

😂😂😂

Good luck with that idea. Automation will change absolutely nothing with regard to industrial action as long as staff are required on board to operate the doors and drive under failure conditions.

Most drivers are ASLEF but the signallers, line controllers, station staff and the technicians who maintain the trains, track, signals, etc. are mostly RMT so they could still go on strike. Full automation is unlikely as TfL can't afford it.

ASLEF shrugged Full automation will won’t happen, not saying never, but certainly not for many years yet.

It's also on the (L) Canarsie Line.

Its a good job too

There’s still an operator on the train as per regulation and the union has made sure the pay remains. It’s literally less effort for drivers as well as more efficient. Not to mention all the extra jobs made to install and maintain the system. Just more technophobe nonsense from confused boomers.

@Matthew Stevens yea but that just makes their jobs more boring, how would you like to be sat around all day with nothing to do?

MOM ITS NOT WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE . It depresses me that we waste vital resources on your existence. We went from “THEYRE STEALING OUR JOBS” to “THEIR JOB IS TOO EASY”. Outstanding, I’m honestly amazed.

@@matthewstevens4462 I'm not saying their jobs are too easy nor that they are being taken away, I'm saying that their jobs will become boring and that nobody will want to do them, but go on, continue with taking my words out of context just to make yourself sound smarter. Either way I like your "Nothing could possibly go wrong" mentality, but unfortunately, that mentality never ends well.

Yes, many reasons, all related to owns the tracks, who owns the trains and the need for goods trains to be able to travel along the same tracks.

@@CitytransportInfoplus Who owns their national rail trains, a lessor, TfL, or someone entirely?

Not until platform edge doors are fitted. And that's a long way off, and unlikely on some lines. Of course the Victoria line has been automated from its opening in 1969, but still has 'Train Operators' (LUL's term for Train Drivers). But the DLR is fully automated, with an on-board member of staff doing customer service stuff unless required to manually drive the train.

I think eventually these trains might be fully automated

Forza223 Bowe no chance at all. Too expensive

Rod Fromleftfield All humans

M433 DH6 At one point well sure

I gotcha

They're still seated in the cabs. Their job is to operate the doors as need be and also operate the trains should manual operations be needed.

The Central Line has had ATO for 20 years and currently there are around 300 drivers working on the Central Line.

Exactly, they're not drivers they're door openers. Can't think of a more boring job.

@@szymongorczynski7621 it's a job I've been doing for 15 years and there's a lot more to it than just "door opener". I also work the W&C which is all manual driving and its just as boring as the Central.

@@ASLEFshrugged Yeah, just because trains are being automated doesn't mean you're out of a job. It's just that your day to day tasks are slightly different.

EpicThe112 why are the signals on the 7 constantly flashing?

C14z in the 09 stock, they almost certainly pull off and motor faster. More people stand on the 09 stocks too.

why not?

They're not driverless.

@@ASLEFshrugged they very soon will be

@@giolag5593 TfL's feasibility report October 2014 page 29 "Assessment has determined that physical barriers (e.g. Platform-Edge Doors) would be required to effectively and reliably manage the PTI under fully-automated operation." Installing PEDs would cost billions that TfL currently doesn't have and would take years.

@@ASLEFshrugged I really hope you are right

​@@ASLEFshrugged Billions of dollars are being spent on machine vision systems for self driving vehicles, with time this technology will spill over to other industries, once it hits rail the need for a driver will change. Once the system can watch every train interface without ever lapsing its going to be well ahead of what you can reasonably expect from a human.

A Chiltern unit on the locals between Harrow and Moor Park would be a stupid thing to do as Chiltern units don’t go to Baker Street!

The lines pretty much already operate like that, only the fast lines have “BR style” 4/3 aspect signals as opposed to the standard LU setup of stop and repeater signals.

It is not possible for the Chiltern Trains to use the local tracks because the connection at Harrow On The Hill does not allow this. They are physically separated!

The best way would be for chiltern to install CBTC for their trains, and makes the whole thing less complex. I can’t see how a modern system can communicate safely and reliably with an old system

Forza223 Bowe That has happened smoothly with Paris Metro Line 1

The Expo Line system is driverless (level 4), i.e. a higher level of automation, its more comparable to London's DLR (1987). The reason this system in London is interesting is the interoperability aspect, and for Londoners hopefully it means a better level of service. The Queen sends her regards.

Can you explain this in more detail? What does splitting the circle line mean?

In former times, the Circle Line was an infinite loop. So, setting a terminal station means splitting the line.

RandomNameHere I think it's on the Grand Union Canal near Croxley Green (not a station!), between Moor Park and Rickmansworth stations, at the point where the South Curve to Watford branches off the main line (here: 51.6392245, -0.4483262). There's a lock gate a short distance SW of this point, which is probably where this was filmed. It's a very pleasant walk along that section of canal! Digression: there's also a picturesque view of the boatyard on the GU canal from the Met train between Croxley and Watford stations.

@@davidlovell4589 ta. I'll keep my eyes peeled next time I head out that way.

CBTC works reasonably well but is still not thought to be as capable of coping with wet rail braking as skilled human train drivers.

I hear what you say but at all times there will be a human in the cab at the front of the train looking out for people or objects on the track. I share your concerns about the ability of the technology to cope with slippery rails, although in part this issue even applies with human train drivers. The trains are OK, they give a smoother ride than the older trains they replaced and whilst their top speed is lower than the former A stock fleet it is broadly similar to the former C and D stock trains. Also, they are fully air-conditioned, a feature that has never existed on any other London Underground trains.

Can’t see it working. How will a state of the art system, Link to an old signals? Only feasible way is to convert the chiltern trains to CBTC

No the feasible way is to layer the signalling systems over each other, like they are doing. It's been done many times, eg the introduction of 2009 Stock on the Victoria Line.

@@forza223bowe5 thanks

@@SouthLondonRailwayPhotography Thanks

South London Railway Photography I can’t see it working at all, baring in mind the Victoria line ATO was overlaid on another ATO system so it was compatible. CBTC will be overlaid over a conventional signalling system, and what happens if a conventional train spad, now will CBTC handle it or vice versa?

I remember the laughable 5MPH-only driving know-how demonstrated by unskilled operators when Vancouver's driverless rubbish would break down for hours at a time.

Vkmshckchoxgvh

Two signalling systems is a disaster for safety, and reliability.

couteuxs Piccadilly appears to be next, starting when NTfL starts service.

they do sometimes, but not always

The trains will still need a member of staff onboard!

Jim the DLR has been "on strike" before as up to now the control room has humans in it who are union members!

Also the Victoria line was running ATO from when it was built in the late 1960s but it has always had a driver so no need for stickers!

Is the Berlin S bahn ATO ?

@@forza223bowe5 No. We do have an autonomous bus though - which is limited to 5 km/h (?) and only runs on the premises of a hospital. As far as I know, there are no plans whatsoever to re-introduce SelTrac-operated trains here in Berlin in the foreseeable future. I think they have an automated subway - one line - in Nürnberg in southern Germany though, but that's about it for the entire country. For more than one reason, Germany is not very much into things like SelTrac. The irony here because SelTrac was originally invented by a German company is not lost on me though.

SelTrac is just a brand name from Thales (former Alcatel). They use it for all their signalling systems.

There is still a human driver who monitors the trains

Alasdair Clift Well hopefully there is now only one man monitoring hundreds of trains... but where are now the drivers of these trains? I mean, more and more trades, even the most complicated ones are being replaced by robots. Tomorrow the technician who runs all these driverless trains behind his screen will also be replaced... Is that progress?

C Vollot No, every single one of these trains still has a driver on board. They can instead however dedicate more time to monitoring doors and platforms and stopping the train in an emergency rather than driving the train, making it safer. Not only that, but the automated system is more efficient than driver operation allowing for more frequent and faster services

So far reliable in London but hasn’t been rolled out to the more complex parts of the line

yes, when they get new motors and a new AC (alternating current) traction package

yes, when they get new motors and a new AC (alternating current) traction package

yes, when they get new motors and a new AC (alternating current) traction package

For some reason this reply came out 3 times lol

Drivers are still very much required in cabs.

This is GoA2 with a driver in the cab. The DLR is GoA3, the train drives itself but still needs a member of staff somewhere on board.

ASLEF shrugged what’s Goa?

@@andypardy3212 GoA = Grade of Automation. From GoA0 to GoA4.

It will never work, the old signals date back to then 1920s or so. How is a computer going to communicate with that, it’s a disaster waiting to happen

Can I just say the system is very very poor it's slow it's dreadful it can't possibly ever be without a driver . The fact that it does not include city stop technology is a real bummer cos right now unless the driver sees something on the track like a vehicle or other large item the train won't stop or even slow down . This is very very serious if they intend to take drivers away . The Gov talks a load of crap and Shapps is clueless about how the technical side works at all . I say to people they should be very concerned that a Gov want to eventually take jobs away from the people to leave the public so very vulnerable on driverless trains idea .

They were built in Derby, but the company who own the works are Canadian

...and some Northern line stations (I'm not sure about Jubilee line)

how so?

No it isn't

It might yet happen, albeit in a different form than originally proposed.

No, it’s been cancelled for good.

I think its best described as that the automated train control computers are in charge, they know the train is there and full two-way communications are enabled the signal seen here is used where trains enter the automated section of railway from a section of railway controlled by conventional signals. Eventually some parts of the Metropolitan line will use blue signals - the normal red, green and amber signals will be provided for human driven trains and blue signals will be given to automated trains - so that the human train diver can be confident that the system is working well.

I see. I have seen the blue signals on the Metropolitan line, such as one at Finchley Road. I found them very peculiar.

They still have a driver on board. The Victoria Line has been doing this for 50 years

Though unlike London Singapore has retained its line-side signals - at dead-ends, switches and underground platforms

The former KCR Kowloon Canton Railway trains are automated. Apologies for the awful photo with the blue signal, if China does not invade (because of the human rights issue) I will try return later this year and get better views. I also need some present-day footage for a comparison film with what I filmed in 1988!

if only to get rid of the stupid unions who constantly want to strike over nothing but more pay, as if they're not paid enough! They hold the travellers to ransom, good riddance to them when it's fully automated, then only assistants required on trains, if that! Look at DLR!

The trains are not going driverless, they are just automatically operated the driver is still there in the cab

I don't agree with any form of automated transport. It's not really that safe and it will lead to mass unemployment

@@TrainsPT I think you are confusing "Automatic train operation" (Grade of Automation 2) with "driverless trains operation" (GoA3 or GoA4).

@@ASLEFshrugged I'm not. They will become driverless in the future because that means more profits and less problems for companies

@@TrainsPT TfL's 2014 feasibility report stated that driverless operation would only be possible if platform edge doors were fitted. TfL simply can't afford it. To date there hasn't been a successful operation of driverless trains beyond light rail/subway/metro systems with exclusive use of the track.

@@TrainsPT They won't become driverless, there isn't any plans for them to do so and TfL have frankly better things to spend there money on. Besides, the DLR operates fine without any major incident from what I recall in the last 30 years

DLR, Jubilee & Northern - TBTC (Transmission Based Train Control), signals from trains to/from a signalling centre. Victoria and Central run off Automatic Train Protection based systems which means the train picks up codes from the track which determine how fast it can go.

I agree, I doubt CBTC will be compatible with old outdated signalling

The signalling system in question that's causing the delays isn't the main system used underground from what I hear, but actually the signalling system down to Heathrow which needs modification.

Only really done on special occasions, the last one was for the 150th anniversary of the opening of the District Line