Peter Jackson's take on the Balrog is actually one of my favourite things about his adaption of LOTR. I think it's very clever visual storytelling - by hearkening the Balrog in form back to the medieval devil, those watching the film and engaging with this story for the first time do not need an on screen explanation for what this creature is or stands for; they know it already, can recognise it from their own stories/religion/culture. Given that you can't spend time in a film as you can in a book explaining each detail or backstory, I thought this was a brilliant way of impressing the idea of what a Balrog is on new audiences.
I totally agree. As said in the video, i like it a lot too. It's a menace, you understand it visually in an instant as something very old, evil and very powerful (like the devil or a demon). In 2001 it also really looked cool (I think it still looks good, but you see how the CGI improved over the years in several scenes) and formed a memorable scene. In addition many details from the books are caught in it too (like rising in size, spreading his shadow like wings, fire from the nostrils, etc.).
Having read the books many years ago well before the films were made I have to say I let out a gasp at the sight of the Balrog. It is just how I imagined but on steroids. I disagree about the wings, as a native English speaker I took the description of the Balrog to indicate that they do indeed have wings. Remember, a damaged wing is useless and could easily explain the falling.
Interestingly, I had the exact opposite reaction. "What, a video-game demon, 10 meters tall, probably weighing several tons? With horns and wings? Give me a break!". Jackson's balrog was ridiculously oversized (just like the oliphants). And I'm one of those who are 100% convinced that balrogs don't have wings. (Early drafts of balrogs even rode dragons. Why would they if they could fly? And why would they have wings if they couldn't fly?). And regarding its size: When you describe something, you use a relatable size. Like "a lion is bigger than a hyena" or "an elephant is bigger than a rhino". "The elephant was bigger than a rabbit" doesn't make sense. So when it says "the balrog was bigger than a man" it should be taken as "noticable bigger", not "4-5 times taller and weighing two tons". That is, a balrog may be 3-4 meters tall at most. Remember that later in the story, it climbs the endless stairs. These stairs were built by dwarves, for dwarves. Why would they make the tunnel big enough to fit a 10 meter balrog? And if they were real wings spreading from wall to wall in the great cave (10, 20 30 meters wingspan?) they would have to occupy considerable space even if folded! Also remember that the balrog was trying to penetrate doors in Moria, made for dwarwes. Sure, there may be big doors in the great halls, but a door to a chamber should be considerable smaller. Also, there are records of balrogs being slain by sword. How does a two meter warrior even hurt a 10 meter balrog if it's standing up? No, a balrog is a wingless, 3-4 meters tall creature of terror.
He actually had fled the Valar after they'd defeated Morgoth (Sauron's original boss). Sauron and the Balrogs are Maiar spirits (lesser valar) who basically refused to appear in court. There were many Balrogs who fled after their final defeat and sought out deep places to hide. Like the Nazi SS officers who fled to South America after their defeat.
@bollo The Enigma *Haha, Thanks Man,* I try. I was like 12 or 14 when I first tried to read the Silmarillion, maybe making it a fifth of the way through-- it's not easy to track hundreds and hundreds of fictional names, places, concepts, historical ages, mythological concepts, etc.-- it Definitely took me several Re-Starts. Even the _weapons_ of the heroes have their own unique names and properties that the readers have to track/ remember. It's _Definitely_ worth it though, to Finally get through the texts LoL, and No One should be ashamed to admit that at all. It's not a Dan Brown novel or Harry Potter, which literally _Anyone_, and _Everyone_, of any intelligence- level, can quickly and Easily read right through. The History of 'Arda,' [as primarily told through the Silmarillion and the Hobbit, plus L.O.T.R., plus Unfinished Tales] is SO incredibly beautiful though-- possibly the most under-appreciated Life's--Work in [human] Literary history. I'm pretty well-read, and the Only thing I can remotely compare, in terms of complexity, and the constant, endless, intricate connections, the only other work of Literary Art that remotely compares to Tolkien's World is "Count of Monte Cristo," by Alexandre Dumas. Obviously, Tolkien's World operates on a much more extensive level, but these two authors are on a level that almost no one Has, Can, or Ever, Will Reach to any vaguely comparable degree.
The movie interpretation of the Belrog in Moria and how they did the coming of a beast was just perfect. Reminds me of many nightmares where there is something after you, and you must run... and whatever it is terrifying... and eventually do see it and it is scary. Plays on a primal nightmare we all probably have or will have had at some point of our lives.
I think anyone would poop in pants if faced with a mindbending monster like that balrog. And especially Legolas. More than most, he's a being who loves light, open air, woodlands, and so on. Even in the old LOTR cartoon, the balrog was awesome and frightening. I'm sure many people were affected by the conception of the the balrog. Watching LOTR in the cinema. The entrance of the balrog was almost tangeable. We should have suspected something awful when Saruman in that grim tone tells Gandalf, "You know of what I mean..The Dwarves delved too deeply." Like oops, turn back now. A big tell! But that's what happens when you follow the instructions of a totally naive, inexperienced ring bearer!! All heck breaks loose. And the worst is a relentless flaming creature who looks like a concept of Satan.😲😲🏃🏾♂️🏃🏽♀️🏃🏾♂️🔥
He probs understood what the Balrog was along with Gandalf :) like Aragorn was nieve to think he could run back and face it in the films thus perhaps they could not conceive the danger they were in. 😉
winston miller in the book it was actually Gandalf’s idea to go through the Mines of Moria and it was Aragorn that was against it. Aragorn preferred the path over Caradhras and wanted to at least attempt it before having to submit to the fact that they would have to use the mines. It wasn’t ever Frodo’s choice however, they all would have died if they stayed on the mountain anyways.
I would have talked more about the Balrog’s intelligence and his ability to cast spells/use of magic. As much as I loved Peter Jackson’s rendition, I found it missed out on a lot. Gandalf when putting a shutting spell upon the door “felt something enter the room” even though the door was shut. He said that the Orcs fell silent and were afraid. He also said “It laid hold of the iron ring and then it perceived me and my spell. The counter spell was terrible, it almost broke me” it’s one thing being able to cast a spell but it’s on a whole different level to be able to cast a counter spell. That’s highly advanced magic. I was very impressed by Jackson’s Balrog but the more I’ve watched it, I’ve felt it comes across as a little more than a senseless beast of just a far far more powerful with fire magic. Also in the book when the cave trolls throw slabs over the crack to make a gangway, it says the Balrog suddenly raced over it and the fire rose up to greet it. So the book Balrog has great speed as well. But I love how Peter Jackson gave it a real Demon look. And I love Gandalf’s description of it being “A demon from the ancient world” and the noise and light glittering from pillar to pillar.
As for PJ's Balrog, it was very well done, although I recall thinking 'That beast has the worst case of chili breath I've ever seen', when I saw it open its mouth the first time...
the Dwarves just happened to awaken the Balrog from his hibbernation state how he was resting waiting for Morgoth´s return and command to action that might happen in the Last Battle, he was awakened and unsettled by mistake. The Balrog, as well the others hidden since the War of the Wrath´s end just used again the tunnels made by the Nameless Things to find proper places to hid themselves and wait there. The Dwarves happened to connect their dwelling tunnels with the ones made by the Nameless Things, which I still consider more fascinating and unsettling than the Balrog, as Gandalf chooses not to talk much about them for getting more fear and depression on his friends, as they were something that might not be able to handle or fight in all - pretty much a Lovecraftian cosmic horror impotence feeling about how smaller the humans might be when confronted by those forces. They might be linked with the Watcher in the Water too, and might be the original builders of the underground labyrinthic hiddeout of both Angband and Uttumno for Melkor in the first place, as I don´t see him tunnelling the earth properly as the Silmarillion states literally but rather having help to do it indirectly or at his command.
I think of the Balrog wings like the wings of the gargoyles from the ol Disney cartoon. They have them but cannot actually fly with them. Glide, intimidate and use as a cloak is how they used them and I feel that it really does fit with the Balrogs. Like when they rode on the dragons, (and glided off them to do battle). Leaving the wings down (cloaked) and then raising and flexing them to intimadate.
I loved this cartoon show ^^ Yes Tolkien had a lot of ideas in earlier concepts and draft. There was also the story, that he captured great eagles to get the secret of flight, but they would not tell him.
The only visuals we've got of maiar spirits at full strength in the movies are Sauron in the prologue and the balrog in Moria. If they had hinted at Gandalf's and Saruman's origin instead of giving them no backstory at all I think some scenes in the movies would be more powerful.
So, I do wonder this: what if the extension listed for Gandalf and the Balrog was more a 'revealing' of power/greater form? That is to say, when Gandalf's shadow covered the room, it was actually him exerting enough of his greater power that some physical manifestation of his true being was brought forth. Thus, with the Balrog, it was much the same: the 'wing' like shadow was a revelation of his greater power.
I would see this as a possibility. Gandalf states, that he "uncloaked". I think for normal beings it was difficult to get even close to a Maia in their true for (like Sauron). And i think their greater power must have some manifestation in the seen world, that e.g. men can perceive (maybe even visually as described with Gandalf). So I agree with you. When it comes to the Balrog it must also be considered, that he was a entity of shadow and flame and probably had also some sort of control over it (like Ungoliant).
I always see this issue as the ability of the Balrogs to shift their physical form. So they were able to traverse Hithlum, a mountainous region. Yet their power decrease over time, as they are corrupted beings and lose power (See Sauron and Morgoth). So they are stuck with wings of shadow. Yet your take on this is very interesting, I like this opinion. 🤔
The numbers in those wars were in the millions. Movie- makers never do justice to the numbers. Like, imagine how far they'd have to zoom out, to show, not one baseball-stadium worth of 25,000 soldiers, but _40_ groups that large. And then, every platoon of orcs would have a troll, every company werewolves or vampires or bats, and every battalion a Balrog or Dragon. Non-silmarillion readers have literally No idea just how completely F***ed the elves were all the time in the First Age.
@@douglashanson7489 yeah but you can not compare the elves of the 3rd age to those of the 1st age and before, back then they where way more powerfull as the light of valinor was still strong in them, the best example of this is Luthien who put morgoth himself to sleep by her singing/magic and stole a silmarill from his crown or all the balrogs that got killed by other great elves like glorfindel. so yeah morgoth had to send so many troops because otherwise he would be fucked by all those elves.
@@possemis That's mostly true, although Glorfindel is actually a unique backwards exception, he's more powerful after he's reincarnated. He wasn't reincarnated because he was powerful-- he was sent back just for being brave. The elves are slighter than men, physically, but there fury of their immortal spirit, when invoked, makes them more powerful. A man of Numenorean descent is almost always stronger than any elf, in a _casual_ display of strength. The elves in the third age still _can_ fight as fast and furiously as they did in there first age, only, they're basically exhausted after thousands of years, so the sheer will requirements are higher. The "Light of Valinor" (from there trees) simply made it easier for an elf to go full-elf-mode. The more recently they'd been in this light, the easier it is to remember what they are fighting for and against.
Yea balrogs do seem to have wings. But give notice to the narrow place it fell into with Gandalf. Even with wings it would be bounced off jutting rocks. On top of that it was being hacked by Gandalf. Looking back to the lotr cartoon, balrogs seemeed to have wings, but were depicted as moving with a jirky half glide. This movement gave a more threatening approach to the creature, making it more scary.
A bit late for my post, but as always I hope you like it :) Balrogs are also a very interesting topic for me and I get a lot of questions about them. It was also on the vote so I thought I'll just cover this topic next ^^ How do you like the depiction in Peter Jackson's first LotR film? Have a nice Advent Season and happy holidays :)
@Adeptus Astartes It definitely does leave room for interpretation. Most descriptions of a Balrog are from Durin's Bane. It's not known how typical this Balrog looked, compared to others. I really like this artistic interpretation here: tolkiengateway.net/w/images/8/83/Thomas_Rouillard_-_Valaraukar.jpg I think it's for the most part quite precise. It has something of shadow and flame. It's a man-shape and some fire. We also don't see wings (which can be debated I guess), but as explained, this seems to be part of its shadow. The Shadow of War version (from the cutscene) leans heavily on the movies depiction, but the Balrog now has Burning wings, which is in my opinion not correct (no mention of this) and the shadow was replaced with smoke. in the game even the smoke is gone, so there is no shadow component anymore, which is in my opinion a big problem and incorrect. In LotR a Balrog is described as: What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it. [...] The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. So a mysterious entity of shadow and flame. The SoW depiction makes it a giant beast, that feels quite brain-dead, which contradicts, what we know from the books. So I like the announce trailer version more (here we at least have the smoke part (ofc it's not black) and the LotR version, but I think the in-game version is bad. A detail that I'm OK with is the helmet and the armour, which is referenced in earlier drafts. Strangely the license holder (Middle-earth Enterprises), who made it possible to create this game, does not have the license for the Silmarillion or the Book of Lost Tales Part II. So technically they should not be allowed to reference that. Still most details are from the LotR books and of they have the license for this.
Yes i know what you mean. When it comes to SoW, I also think it has to do with technical limitations. Ofc I would have wished for the deails from teh cutscene, but you can't have everything ^^ I think i mention it too, that the shadow wings could have some purpose and suggest, to move faster or leap (considering a quote from an earlier version of the Silmarillion, but I know Geekzone has a video too and I wouldn't be surprised if he made a similar suggestion, he makes great videos too). I think if you are so deep into Tolkien's work (as Christopher Tolkien), having actively formed it yourself, putting in a tremendous amout of work of a live time too, you have a very different view. So nothing can ever fully capture this work in another medium. The result is ofc a dislike and seeing only its shallowness in comparison. I mean I red the books over the course of a few years, he (too) worked on them for literally decades. That's a different emotional situation. It's also his lifes great work. Piecing together the Silmarillion so coherently and documenting the process in such detail was an extremely difficult task.
I’m new to watching your channel, so forgive me if you are already aware of this. A good interpretation of the Balrog was also in The Lord of the Rings (1978 film) by Ralph Bakshi. I’m not sure of the limitations to using the copyrighted material, but that film was before it’s time and adds another visual perspective on Tolkien’s work. From one Tolkien fan to another, keep up the great work. Your analysis of certain topics/characters is great. The video that caught my attention to your channel was the Necromancy analysis. Very well done.
why did Gandalf's encounter with the Balrog last so long? Gandalf = many fire spells, some fire resistance. Balrog = fire damage, fire immunity. he had to wait until they were open air and switch to electricity spells to end him
Wings in ancient times were supposed by men to be given supernatural entities because they were from the higher realms. Having been from there, it is possible they retained their winged appearance, while being incapable of actual flight. They had had their wings clipped, or simply were "too heavy" spiritually to accomplish flight. It's also possible they used the massive winged appearance to frighten their prey. We see this in the animal kingdom... flare to impress, bewilder, etc. Perhaps also like it's pointed out in the video, the wings are obscure, like a vision almost of where they are from, their purpose, or capable of.
If Balrogs had wings they would have found Gondolin several hundred years earlier than it was. I really prefer the description in the books, a flame concealed in shadow, in the shape of a man. I like to think of an angelic looking flame spirit casting a shadow all around it like the "unlight" of Ungoliant. A spirit of fire that casts shadow instead of light. Seems to be a common theme among evil in this universe.
Balrogs are one of the most interesting of Tolkien’s creations that is as terrifying as they are sinister. Considering that Balrog’s used to be very powerful soldiers in Morgoth’s grand army of the first age, it truly puts into perspective just how powerful Morgoth must have been in his day. Sauron, a servant of Morgoth was powerful enough on his own also, so with servants as powerful as both Sauron and Balrog’s one can only imagine the incredible powers at the disposal of Morgoth. After learning as much as I can from your video here on Balrog’s I am going to go and re-study up on your Morgoth video. Any Valar that can control and make these Maiar their servants has to control energies and powers beyond mortals comprehension. All of this excitement has me pumped up to go study some Morgoth now!
To go further into detail of exact nature of dwarves reaching the Durin's Bane: "It came to pass that in the middle of the Third Age Durin was again its king, being the sixth of that name. The power of Sauron, servant of Morgoth, was then again growing in the world, though the Shadow in the Forest [Sauron's presence at Dol Guldur] that looked towards Moria was not yet known for what it was. All evil things were stirring. The dwarves delved deep at that time, seeking beneath Barazinbar for mithril, the metal beyond price that was becomeing yearly ever harder to win. Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth. Durin (VI) was slain by it, and the year after Nain I, his son; and then the glory of Moria passed, and it's people were destryed or fled far away." ... "Or released from prison; it may well be that it had already been awakened by the malice of Sauron." so that's the most detailed manner with some in-universe theories :), apparently it shows also that Balrog Durin's Bane was in some sort of slumber for a while, understandable for immortal being, he probably would get bored really quick after exploring all the ways of the 'foundation of stone' hehe and interacting with all those nameless things gnawing the world deep beneath Moria's lowest mines and halls.
Hello! It's nice to see your comment section growing :). I liked the video as always and I think the reason why in the movies balrogs are depicted the way they are is that a lot of people who saw the movies are not really familiar with the source material. Balrogs are powerful and evil demons and depending on where you look they greatly range in size. So in order to convey this to the uninitiated you have to make them big, scary, and horned with fiery wings. That way anyone who sees the films without really knowing Tolkien's works instantly know just how serious a face off with a balrog really is.
Agreed. Somebody wrote it's good visual communication and I totally agree. It becomes clear to everyone (esp. a western audience), that those things are ancient, powerful and evil. Also they are a nice contrast, because LotR usually does not have a lot of super natural elements (at least not to this extend). Also thank you ^^ Yes, I'm happy to see more comments too :)
"Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations of the earth since the coming of the Host of the West: a Balrog of Morgoth" I mean... he could've meant "moving very fast" but there are too many mentions of flight, and no mentions of "running", for this to be a coincidence.
Tolkien often uses terms like "flight" & "fly" to mean things are fleeing and/or moving at breakneck speeds. After all, if you said a horse was "flying down the road" you'd take that as the horse running very fast - not literally flying. But it's fiction up to interpretation.
When Gandalf and the Balrog fell down in Moria, they fell in very cold water. There the balrog changed form into a slimy thing. Was that because of lack of power or wanted? I think wanted because in the water that was more suited for it, or eventuely for easier hiding. Another question is: can maiar die or will their spirit survive? Aren't Gandalf and balrogs of the same type of maiar? Gandalf stayed on the good side.
Never thought about it. Yes could be, that this happened wanted. Or maybe because it was something like Balrog associated with earth (through fire es explained) and the combination with water resulted in something like "swamp" mud. But I like the thought, because the Balrog escaped and probably the water killed its flames. So it made sense for hiding. I covered this a bit in my Death in LotR video (more towards the end of the video). How the death of a Maiar works exactly is a bit mysterious. But to my understanding their spirits can't be destroyed (OK Eru can in theory do this I guess, but he won't). So they survive the death of their body. If they are corrupted/falled Maiar, they can be banned and diminished to a shadow, that has no power or the ability to regenerate again. Because they can't return to Aman (where they could "heal"). Sauron however avoids this fate or tricks it with the One Ring. Strangely he believed for a long time, that it was destroyed. I assume he had enough power, thought he had put less of his power into the One Ring than he thought and managed to "regenerate" enough in time before it was actually destroyed. Recovering from this took him far over 2000 years. The One Ring would have shortened this time span dramatically, like after his body died in Númenor. Complicated topic ^^ maybe if I have more, I dedicate a short video to this specific topic at some point. They are the same. Some speak of differences in rank. But yes basically, Gandalf stayed true to his origin (servant of the Valar Eru) and the other rebelled against Eru and the (good) Valar and followed Melkor/Morgoth on his path to destroy the world. So Fallen Maiar (like fallen angels I guess).
ThePhilosophersGames the reason I asked of the relation between Gandalf and balrogs is this (from unfinished tales: 'for he was the Enemy of Sauron, opposing the fire that devours and wastes with the fire that kindles, and succours in wanhope and distress' And: 'clothed then in white, and became a radiant flame' So Gandalf also was a spirit of fire like the balrogs.
As Finsolitus said, it's from my perspective a reference for Gandalf's Ring Narya ("For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill."). the radient flame is a reference to his true power as Gandalf the Wight (unveiled), that opposes the darkness. But you have a point. There is a fiery Maia like Arien (who is also assassinated with Varda and guides the sun; Melkor tried to corrupt her) and also Gandalf is also associated with Varda, Queen of the Stars. And the flame is a symbol that has some connections to Gandalf, but ofc he was known as the wisest of the Maiar. He "enlightens" others so to say. Also with the Ring of Fire we have another reference, that rekindles the hearts of others. His fire was more spiritual you could say and less destructive as that of the Balrogs.
The Balrog from the films are based on the design that John Howe did for different book covers, calenders and such before the films were made. On these paintings the Balrog are very much like how they look in the films including horns and wings, so the designers including Howe didn't change the design much from his work, just fleshed out some texture details and the effects.
It somehow reminds me to the discussion of the first Edain in the silmarillion, when Amlach (or someone who pretended to be him) said that the elves digged to deep in the earth and pulled the anger on themselves who lived there forever. Since he easily pretended tho be Amlach, he was most likely a maiar and servant of Morgoth. So he knew about Angband and Utumno and from his perpective, he tried to let his speech sound as sensible as possible. So, when he speaks about things deep in the earth, he may have much more information than the reader has. Gandalf also referenced beeings that lived in the earth (much deeper then dwarves and elves normaly dig) that lived there from the beginning. So, maybe there is much more going on under the ground of middle-earth then we know, since Melkor had lived in Utumno for more then 10000 years and we know that the valar are able to form the earth according to there ideas on longer timescales.
A good point (I think I at least mention the so called "Nameless Things" below the earth in the video too). I like how Tolkien created all these little details and mystery ^^
As per your description of Melkor at 1:05, before the War of the Last Alliance and after the sinking of Numenor, Sauron was so weak and rocked by Eru that he could no longer take fair form. So, he surrounded his spirit with armor for intimidation purposes. It makes sense that he was inspired to look like his master, who was his religious and spiritual figurehead. He worshiped Melkor and made sure others did too. Now it can be argued that Sauron just used Melkor for his own political momentum with Ar-Pharazon, a fear tactic if you will and then those who fall for the lies fully unfortunately see Sauron as something worth idolizing, along with Melkor. Sauron was all about deception and control, making you believe something as truth even though the person telling you might not believe it. If this is the case, it still would be an acceptable twist because Sauron just doesn't care, as opposed to Sauron just making everything terrible to his fullest copacity. Bluntness for patience. How many times have we seen that in history. And Sauron flies away from Numenor as Eru drowns it, with Sauron laughing, as if it was a game to him, as if everything was a game- the friendships, the religiosity, the counciling, it was all about strategy.
Here's the thing: The depiction in the books works for the books. But on screen you cannot directly depict "terror going before it." And since you cannot depict something like that visually, I think the movies had to make the Balrog more intimidating by making him larger and less human-like. So I very much like the depiction as it exists in the movie because it works much better for a visual medium than I think a more literal depiction of the book version would have.
haha I recently bought Dungeon Keeper at the GOG Sale (played it as a kid), so I thought it would be funny to include it and it was the first horned demon that came to my mind ^^ Thank you, happy holidays to you too ^^
I think the Balrog do have wings of shadow, insubstantial but maybe aiding in their speed on land, but not so to carry them aloft. These wings might have slowed the fall of the Balrog in Moria but not arrested its fall.
I like the idea that Balrog's don't always have wings, and some never have, but some can "summon" wings for that fear factor and some LIMITED flight (as depicted in The Battle For Middle-Earth 2). Though weaker than beings like Sauron, he was able to change his form several times during his life and he had proper physical bodies. Balrogs were spirits willingly corrupted by Melkor's darkness that either specifically chose fire or simply became avatars of Fire and Darkness when they took physical forms, either way, I don't think it's that unlikely that some of them could change their shapes to some degree.
One detail was, well, maybe not missing, but not explained entirely. I'd add a little more detail about Tolkien's views on the number of Balrogs, and how it changes from armies of hundreds or thousands strong to mere seven in total. Durin's Bane being one of so few servants of Morgoth makes him more notable, more important to the world. And your Rs are great, never change them. :D
Thank you :) Yes maybe I should have mentioned, that he changed their numbers, but I didn't want to dive too deep in the History of Middle-earth books. But you are probably right.
Haven't watched yet, but i imagine with the transformation of Arda into a sphere, the bottom chambers of what was Angband and the North of Arda in Udûn, and everywhere else, got a lot closer each-other. Two straight lines from different places of s sphere will meet in the centre, and two lines(mines) on the same continent angled towards each-other will meet much earlier and closer to the surface.
Your accent reminds me of my history teacher. The difference being I find your stuff entertaining to listen to and I didn't fall asleep. The way the R rolls off the tongue when you say 'Balrog' or 'Morgoth' was entertaining to listen to!
Some birds have wings but there not so much for flying. Since Maiar can change their form it’s not impossible for Balrogs to alter their forms to have wings. When Melkor was attacked by Ungoliant he was quite a ways from where his Balrogs were. I find it difficult to imagine the Balrogs running a great distance and just being able to save him in time. Their wings could have been used to help leap or sprint across faster.
ThePhilosophersGames Geekzone also made this point in his video about the Balrogs so I thought of sharing that here. I prefer the way the Balrog was portrayed in the films. The Balrog as a huge but not gigantic humanoid flaming creature doesn’t terrify me as the film Balrog would being that gigantic. Of course that doesn’t mean I wouldn’t want to run into the book Balrog either. I am curious about the character Glorfindel. An elf lord from Gondolin who slays a balrog and is brought back, that’s quite an achievment for an elf. I read somewhere that I’m the early stages of LOTR he was meant to be a member of the fellowship but that idea was scrapped and he was a minor character in LOTR.
Yes Geekzone's video is really good too. I agree, I think for a visual medium this change made sense. When it comes to actual flight, there was an old draft where Tolkien described Morgoth capturing Great Eagles to find/extract the secret of flight, but he never could. It did not make it into the Silmarillion, but it seems he had the idea of flight in his mind and probably Morgoth not being able to give this ability to his creatures and allies. Yes Tolkien originally planned for Glorfindel to take the role of Legolas. But then he created a new character (Legolas) for it, which is the reason, why he isn't that well integrated into the lore in comparison.
ThePhilosophersGames I think it was also because the mission required stealth which Glorfindel was perhaps considered too powerful for this reason consider he was almost like a maiar at that point. Shame cause I would have like to him do more. Funny enough he was heavily featured in Battle For Middle Earth 2 and the Expansion Pack though not nearly as powerful. It was awesome that the Expansion pack featured The Witch-King and the Fall of the Northern Kingdoms. Good way to introduce the history that was not mentioned much.
Also, intimidating your enemy IS a practical purpose, especially when you are being of shadow and fear. Having wings that make you look bigger and more intimidating is an end in itself. Spend less time sitting behind a computer screen and more time paying attention to nature and a lot of this Tolkien stuff really sorts itself out.
to be fair, the way that Durin's Bane falls does not allow it to right itself, as it falls back first, which would not allow the wings to actually help any, in the movie we also see the Balrog get dashed against outcropping rocks on the way down. And in the Two Towers movie we see that one of the Balrogs wings are clearly broken from this fall, meaning there is no way it could fly at all. Which would make sense given the sheer force at which it hit the stone. Now whether they actually had wings or not, the way I interpreted it was that the Balrog's could use their shadow's as wings, but given how in both depictions of Balrog's falling down they fall backwards there is nothing they could to do right themselves. And no, you can't fly upside down with wings, wings are designed to push wind down when you are flying the correct way, turn that upside down and you will only accelerate your fall instead. So if the Balrog's fell backwards, having wings wouldn't help squat. And IIRC both instances of Balrog's falling have them fall back first into the abyss, preventing their wings(if any) from helping.
That might be true, but the absyss looked deep enough the he could have rotated in air before crashing somewhere. If a Balrog is a being used to flight he should have an instinct to do this while falling. In the books we also don't get a description of how he fell or that he crashed - same in the Fall of Gondolin.
Your Voice is part of my dreams. Thank you so much… always thought i was deep into the lore….. im not. Was not…. Tolkien is such a large part of my live, so are you
oh cool ^^ Have not covered news about the LotR Amazon Show for some time (there are not many official news so far and I don't have access to insider information either; so I wait), so I'm happy that I still got recommended somewhere on YT 😅 I'm currently working on a huge video about Elrond (looks like it will be far over 2 hours long), which is the reason why I haven't uploaded anything in quite some time.
I originally imagined this as flying too, to be honest, but flight is not mentioned. From the Silmarillion "[...] and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand [...]" I guess "swiftly they arose" and "tempest of fire" create the idea of them flying in our minds.
I feel we need to consider that Arien, the Fire Spirit that accompanies Laurelin across the sky, the same but benevolent spirit as the Balrogs, must surely be flight capable. Therefore their purest spirit inception is likely flight capable and is therefore reflected by their chosen physical manifestation, but vicariously, perhaps from corruption, they're bereft of the capability of actual flight.
Yes, that's a point I thought about too (decided to not mention, because it's a bit too complicated for the purpose of this video and the canon of this is also partially debatable, except for one mention, but there are multiple ideas about her in the History of Middle-earth books). Also if I recall correctly in early drafts of Tolkien, Morgoth captured Great Eagle to get the secret of flight out of them, but they would not tell him and he would cut of their wings, but it didn't help him to find out the secret. So I agree. The corruption removing this ability from them could be a "leftover" (developed a bit further) from this draft. Ofc it may also be a matter of power and Arien was very powerful in this regard I guess (that would count for Tilion too).
Since you are extremely well versed in matters of Middle Earth, I must imagine you've pondered the topic of Sauron and the Akallabeth and how, if his body was deatroyed with the additional impact of weakening him beyond ever taking a fair form again, how exactly did he carry off the one ring, yet when his form was destroyed in the War with Elves and Men he couldn't "spirit off" the ring as his shade fled the battle. And where did his shade go? Why was he able to flee to Mordor and reform relatively swiftly after the Akallabeth, within the frame of Elendil and Isildurs lifetime, yet took so many thousands of years to regain a similar stature prior to the war of the ring. Even given that he didn't physically possess the ring he didn't seem able to wear it in spirit form anyway so he had to rely on his native strength regardless. It all seems so inconsistent and I have trouble with the plot hole. If he could carry off the ring from under the waves in spirit form, why didn't he grab the hilt of Narsil and wrestle it away from Isildur while grabbing the ring, maybe giving him a mighty slap upside the swan helm for emphasis. Erm...
That's a difficult question. The Ring is also Sauron, so he could escape with it in spirit form (there was once a debate if Sauron left it in Mordor, but Tolkien confirmed he took it with him to Númenor). However he had time when Númenor was destroyed and he probably saw it coming at some point and could prepare for it. In the Battle of the last alliance, he was actually defeated (thrown down) by Elendil and Gil-galad. He killed both, but was thrown down too. Isildur now could just finish him off by cutting off the Ring with his finger and truly separate it from his form so to say. Narsil was also a very powerful sword and one of the few weapons that could actually do this and Elendil and Isildur were faithful Númenoreans from Elros line and with this blessed kings so to say, faithful to Eru. All this combined allowed Isildur to take the One Ring from Sauron and Sauron was far too weak at this point + he was actually separated from the One Ring. In Númenor he was never separated from it, his physical body just got destroyed together with the island.
I'd like to know how Balrogs communicated. Gothmog is said to have taunted Húrin after capturing him, but it's not clear if he spoke like we do or if it was telepathy.
They were Maiar and they could speak too (see Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Sauron, Eönwë, etc). But as we know Gandalf was also able to communicate telepathically (similar to Elves).
@@ThePhilosophersGames Thanks for replying, noticed your channel about yesterday :-) But why are you so certain? Throat and tongue need a specific anatomy so that you can emit vocals. That's why a cat can't imitate human speech, so I assumed dragons communicate telepathically. However one could also argue that magic allows them to produce sounds that are recognised as speech.
You ofc make a good point. They could use something like telepathy to transmit their speech and just pretend to move their mouth ^^ I think Tolkien would have mentioned it, when this was the case though. Ofc that in of itself is no evidence. A reason why I'm relatively certain is that the Great Eagles can speak too. In some versions they are also Maiar and they e.g. announce (while flying over Minas Tirith) the defeat of Sauron and the "blessing" of Gondor and their new King by the Valar. Could be telepathic too, but I think since Tolkien's root are in mythology (and maybe the bible to some extent), I think not covering/explaining this physically/biologically correct and leave it in the realm of "magic"/"mythologic mystery" would make sense here. Examples I can think of are maybe Fafnir and Ratatoskr (from the Old Norse mythology) or the Donkey of Balaam (in e.g. the Bible).
Hello again! A thought I've sometimes had. The three detailed battles with Balrogs Tolkien described. . . Glorfindel and Ecthelion at Gondolin, and Gandalf in Moria. Is it only possible to defeat a Balrog if you're willing to give your life in the process? And in two of these fights, the victor returned from death (and we don't know if Ecthelion eventually departed Mandos but remained in Valinor). But as Gandalf was Maia was it a true resurrection, or did he simply resume a new physical form, as did Sauron after the destruction of Numenor?
Yes it seems like it, but there might be fights not recorded that were not mentioned (e.g. against the Valar and their forces, we don't know). In Gandalf's case it was different. He was sent back by Eru/God and got a form that was closer to his actual form I guess, but here we actually see one of the interventions of Eru himself. I usually let the option open for debate if Gandalf might have went into the Halls Of Mandos first. Though if he reached thehalls, he did not interact with any of the Valar or Maiar and straight went to Eru and from there he was moved back to the position where he died and awakened naked there and was picked up by Gwaihir.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Yes, quite probably. The first War that took down Melkor after the first Elves awakened, certainly some Balrogs had to be fought there. War of Wrath also. I have always thought that the Halls of Mandos were meant for the Children of Eru, and as Olorin was a Maia, wasn't he also of the Ainur, and thus was present at the Music? Perhaps he did go directly to Eru, though Manwe certainly would have known what was happening. I remember this from my first reading of Lord of the Rings when I was 16, "naked I was sent back. . . " and I remember thinking "who sent him?" Little references like that got me thinking about what was behind the story. Later, when Denethor was about to kill himself, Gandalf implored that it was forbidden, and again I asked "who is forbidding it?" This is a much more effective way for Tolkien to insert his personal faith than if he had been blatantly preachy.
Yes, balrogs have wings. The 1st view of one is a dim, hazy view through smoke and flame, and told through the view of one of the characters seeing the balrog. Then, the 2nd view of it seconds later says definitively: "the balrog spread its wings." (sums it up) The balrogs were destroyed almost entirely, save one that buried itself in Moria. The dwarves dug far into the earth and awakened it.
@@Keithjustkeithwastaken well there's the word "like". If I say "My neighbour lifts like Hulk", does not mean: neighbour is Hulk - confirmed. Or to find a better example: "The diver spread his arms like two vast wings and jumps headfirst into the water." And now the conclusion people draw out of this is: the diver has wings and can fly? Sure. Why is it then that there are no flying Balrogs mentioned in multiple thousand pages of text? Not one. And two of them fall down a pit (one even dies in the process and the text does not mention that his wing was cut off (the text mentions no wing at all))?
I played lots of D&D when I was young. We had Balrogs in D&D. IMHO the Balrog in the movie was the perfect incarnation of the Balrog I remember from gaming.
Oh that's cool and it makes sense to imagine a Balrog this way ^^ I also liked to play D&D when I was younger, I still play table top RPGs from time to time, but my my group members and I all have trouble to be available at the same day, so we play sadly very infrequent.
Very interesting point about Gandalf. - I often skip that first chapter in the book, but I guess I shouldn't. Tolkein's point about supernatural beings is that they literally omit their power in the physical world... When the elves get angry they shine with light (see Fingolfin versus Morgoth; or when Feanor's spirit literally burns his own dead body), and when the Balrogs get angry they shine with Shadow... (They definitely do Not have actual physical wings)... So it's even more interesting with Gandalf, that when he wants to intimidate Bilbo, his shadow fills the room, but when he wants to inspire the armies of the West (i.e. at the Black Gate) he omits light. and "no shadow fell upon him". Is the manifestation of shadow and light a tool the Ainur use to strike fear and hope, or is it a flexing of the power directly related that being's nature? Could the Balrog shine bright light if it wanted to inspire hope? Could an elf shine with shadow if it set its mind to evil, or is the light of the elves a factor of their rigid design; that the light of Illuvatar is in them. Worth a video on the use of light and shadow in the mythology?
Very well observed. Yes that is maybe a good topic for a video, but really research heavy. There is definitely something to it. If Balrogs could emit light I don't know. I think they chose to become creates of Shadow and Flame. i guess in theory sure, but considering that they turned away from "the light" long ago, it might be not possible for them anymore - i could be wrong here though. I think the light of the elves might have to do with the Light of Aman (including seeing the Two Trees). I made this video about the unseen and who can see it ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Vwu9-fNjSGc.html and considering this, there might be a connection. Fingolfin was filled with that light and the light might also be connected to Eru. On the other side, you are right something of Eru (the Flame Imperishable/Secret Fire) is inside the Elves (and the other sentient beings) and it's very strong on them. This can also have to do with it. Fingolfin is an interesting example here.
Did Durin's Bane come to Khazad Dum fleeing Angband in the War of Wrath? If so, the dwarves were already there. In the Silmarillion the dwarves came to settle in the Blue Mountains during the First Age from Khazad Dum, which they had already inhabited for some time (presumably from some point during the Years of the Trees). It actually might make more sense that Durin's Bane fled there during the War of the Powers then the War of Wrath (maybe when Utumno got overthrown he got lost and didn't end up in Angband like the others balrogs).
That's actually a very interesting idea. But on the other hand I could imagine he found ways to enter the caves far below the Misty Mountains without the dwarves noticing it (at this time they probably did not explore these depths and even later we learn that there are nameless things there; the dwarves most likely did not know about them and never explored so deep, because they awoke the Balrog first, even though they had this endless stair). Durin's Bane was not directly in Khazad-dûm, but deep under it and just when the dwarves dug to deep in the Third Age (1980) and awoke it. So considering this: from Druin III getting his Ring of Power, to awaking the Balrog it took around 3850 years (maybe 3300 years depending on when Durin III got his Ring of Power). So the dwarves had to put in quite some work to find Durin's Bane.
When I read the book I always just assumed the wings were viable at their youth then remained the same size and ultimately became more of second arms than flight mechanisms.
That's an interesting thought. I would probably argue, that the physical form of the Balrogs does not age and they never were really young (they were not born, but just took this form).
@@ThePhilosophersGames agreed, not on this plane of existence. Once I read that there are multiple planes and universes(believe gandalf was the one that mentioned this when discussing death, book 3, mines tirith?) I just chalked it off as a whatever thing haha. I haven't read the morgoth back story in relation to the song of creation. I know that things are sung into existence by the gods. I've always been confused by if they are summoning those things from somewhere else or just imaginationland style creating them.
Morgoth in the Silmarillion was the first to twist creatures with horns. Not sure if it’s in the ainulindale or a chapter shortly after. So Balrogs having Horns does make sense in that context.
Flight takes certain conditions to be able to fly and if it's not correct any flying creature or machine can crash. Many young eagles die when learning to fly. So I don't have a problem with Balrogs falling and crashing and having wings.
The Ainur are Not some third delineation below Valar and Maiar. The "Ainur," is simply the term used to describe/ include all of the valar and Maiar, since they weren't named or ranked before coming to Arda once it was created. Many Ainur did not even enter Arda, rather, they remained with Illúvatar.
Why they have wings, well in my opinion the Balrogs use those wings to do great leaps. but since they are Maiar, they probably could change that and actually fly but not often they did that I think. I think those wings are also used for intimidation.
Yes I had a similar thought, maybe becoming faster and being able to leap further. I think in one of the early drafts of Tolkien, Morgoth tried to find the secret of flight and captured Great Eagles, but they never told him. But ofc in theory they should be able to change their form. Sauron could transform into a bat/vampire and fly away (in the First Age).
I'm as far from an expert on LOTR as possible, I enjoy the stories...but Balrog to me seems to take inspiration from Surtr from norse mythology. This is just in my mind however.
I'll note this as question (good question), but also here an answer: Yes, most likely. They don't seem very talkative though, but I they can communicate, because Gothmog was a Captain of Morgoth, same as Sauron and controlling armies definitely needs some form of communication and also complex thought process. Maybe they can use telepathy, because there are only very few hints that they can speak. The Balrog in Moria fell with a terrible cry, so it can make sounds, but it did not speak on the Bridge. Gothmog also gave commands to his armies. Gandalf puts a word of command (so a spell) on the door in Moria and the Balrog later uses a very powerful counter spell. Magic in LotR's universe often requires the power of the spoken or sung word (Sauron battles against several powerful elves with songs in the First Age). So maybe to counter a word of command, he could need words too, but we don't know for sure. However being definitely intelligent as a Maia, able to use and counter spells, and able to release a terrible cry, I would argue Balrogs should be able to speak too, but there is not direct evidence for this though.
Balrogs are Maiar the same as sauron and gandalf, so they are intelligent and probably thdy speak, at least they understand language since they can understand Melkor
Weirdest thing is that Tolkien's texts are so prevalent in culture that even unrelated stuff references it. the burning shadow "Aku" of samurai Jack is one such creature. Tho Aku's origin is more removed at least - being piece of much more ancient evil that was cut off during celestial contest that ultimately undone the originating darkness... it still dose seem to retain that evil can never be fully conquered.
@@ianlaswick9505 Blizard was very skiddish in both war and star craft series, they took alot from warhammer but it dose not surprise me that it harkons as far back as Tolkien's majestic work. I mean Tolkien did amazing job building the world and he did it for express purposes of making foundations for future works of fantasy so yeah working as intended. clever man that Tolkien, lovely books too.
So, it can change shape and fit into tiny cracks and fissures because it's a creature of shadow. I think Tolkien was maybe attributing the bowels of the earth as a kind of hell-like place. Obviously penetrable but not easily unless you can turn into a wisp or go to the spirit realm like the wraiths.
"Moria......You fear to go into those mines.......The dwarves delved too greedily and too deep..........You know what they awoke in the darkness of Khazad-dum.......Shadow......and flame!"
@@ThePhilosophersGames As do I! It really sets up just how dangerous their journey through the mines was, and just how dangerous Durin's Bane is, before it even occurs by having Saruman say this! If even Saruman is basically calling them crazy to go in and risk facing the Balrog over facing him, you *know* it's not a creature to be trifled with!
Great video! Another lore question for you: Are the average humans (not Numenorians or Dunedain) in Middle Earth aware of Eru, the Valar, or the Maiar? I can't recall mentions of Gondorians or Rohanese worshiping Valar, but if I remember correctly some of the Easter-lings and Umbar worshiped Sauron.
Rohan worships Béma (Oromë), which according to their lore, the Mearas were descended from Nahar, Oromë’s horse. Gondor is a more difficult topic. I remember a full article dedicated to explaining religion in Gondor. IIRC Gondor are aware of Eru and the Valar, but they do not worship them openly, as this brings back memories of Sauron’s presence in Númenor.
@@jonathanho5879 Thanks for the info! I'm imagining Gondor are the best candidates for having some knowledge of the Valar but perhaps they faded into legend.
Gondor is a difficult topic int his regard. Same with some of the other groups of men. For Rohan it's easier to answer, because their culture is tied to horses and the Mearas (as explained by Jonathan).
@@Whitefish81 "Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence. Faramir signed to Frodo and Sam that they should do likewise. ‘So we always do,’ he said, as they sat down: ‘we look towards Numenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be. Have you no such custom at meat?’ ‘No,’ said Frodo, feeling strangely rustic and untutored. " The Gondorians had memory of the ancient times and alliances and the history that had come before them, Numenor, the First Age, and of the Valar and Iluvatar. As to the depth and detail of that memory of history, that is up to debate, clearly. However, what is not debatable is that even at the end of the Third Age they held memory of the Lords of the West in reverence, and knew they were eternal.
I've always asked myself if Balrogs could actually fly then why did Durin"s Bane fall at Khazad-dum? Why would a Balrog need a bridge to cross the chasm why wouldn't he just fly around Gandalf and attack the helpless party? For me that scene makes it pretty clear they don't actually fly.
I didn't get one thing, how did the balrogs became firey giants? Maiars have human forms just like how Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf did, so why there is difference between them?
Yes that's a good question. In the books they are probably more humanoid in their shape, than what we see in the film. As mentioned in the video they are Ainur (Maiar), so spirit beings, which can take a physical form. They are also able to change their physical form. Sauron was known for this in the First and Second Age and he changed through many forms from wolf, over snake to trustworthy dude. Some Maiar joined Melkor (the first Dark Lord) and some of those became his most powerful "soldiers", while others like Sauron became his most powerful "sorcerer". For that task the "soldiers" chose a fitting form, which was one of shadow and flame. It's possible that Melkor had a word or two with their form too, because they are all very similar. In Tolkien's early drafts there were also more of them, but then Tolkien made them far more powerful and reduced their number to about 7. In these early drafts they had a helmet and I think armour too. For the films they needed a form that communicated what Durin's Bane was without giving an explanation. He looks like an ancient demon (very supernatural and different to all foes they have encountered so far) and that's basically what he is. An extremely powerful demon of the ancient days, made of shadow and flame.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I see and to think these giant beings were carried behind the back of the fire drakes of gondolin and jumping from there on the city killing all in there path makes them more even more amazing than they already are, Thanks for replying and answering my question man keep up the good work with your videos :)
It's possible. There are hints in this direction, but you could interpret it both ways. I agree though, they were most likely not able to fly or very limited in this regard.
Hey PhilosphersGames just wanted to point this out, but the Tolkien Gateway sight has a great artist depiction of a Balrog. The drawing is basically tall and very humanoid, but with a fiery red face. While it’s visually stunning, I think this art looks better than the hooves and wings version commonly depicted
Yes, agreed. I really like that one too. I think it's probably the most accurate (sadly most people on DeviantArt, where the image is from never answer, so I rarely get permission to use fan art in videos =/). When it comes to the scenes in Moria in a movie, I also like the film's version. Because it communicates the terror, danger and ancient age of the Balrog very well to a western audience. But ofc it's a bit imprecise. Other depictions I could imagine were probably a bit off tone wise and also difficult to make in 2001, I guess.
@@Keithjustkeithwastaken see my answer to your other comment or write down some evidence. I can summarize the evidence again: "His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." (look at the word "like") Plus no Balrog is ever mentioned flying and Morgoth in early drafts was searching for the secret of flight, but could not find it, hinting at Tolkien's idea of Morgoth's servants usually not being able to fly (with like a handful of exceptions, like the dragons which came much later or Thuringwethil, who could change her form same as Sauron into a bat, but this is different from the actual matter we are discussing here).
I think it could also be argued that maybe not all Balrogs had wings but some did and that they varied in appearance just as much as any other kind of species, rather they be fictions or otherwise. Also if Durin's Bane did indeed have wings I imagine it would be difficult for it to use them properly in what was most likely very close and tight corridors or crevices under the mountain. But that is just my speculation as to why during the fight with Gandalf, Durin's Bane didn't just fly up when he fell from the bridge of Khazad-dum if he did indeed have wings.
Yes, there are some arguments that can still be made towards them (or some of the Balrogs) having wings - for sure. This comes down to interpretation, but also in my opinion the counter arguments are also very strong.
@@ThePhilosophersGames Which is very true, a lot of it just comes down to one's own interpretation along with many other things within Tolkien's work. But I think that's part of the beauty with his work as that even with all the detail he put into his work there's still so much that can be interpreted in various different ways.
I agree and it also generates this feel of mythology and mystery, which is in my opinion very important. In addition it also never feels "unfinished", because Tolkien added a ridiculous amount of detail detail in other places.
@@ThePhilosophersGames For sure! Even through borrowing much from mythology in our own world such as various Germanic people, mostly the Ango-Saxons and a bit of Finnish mythology, Tolkien was still able to take inspiration from preexisting mythologies and history while throwing that into his brain blender in combination with his own vast mythology to create a whole universe that is original but also has a sense of familiarity to it. That to me has always been one of the biggest appeals as someone who LOVES both fantasy and history/mythology. It's always fascinating to read his work and draw parallels to real life people and cultures while also experiencing something that is wholly original such as the orcs, ents, balrogs or other creatures or people within Arda. All of which is a further testament of time that his work has already endured and will continue to do so until hopefully the ends of times or until the Valar decide to sing another world into existence.
I imagine the Balrog was sleeping and then the Dwarves started working, like some craftsman swinging the jackhammer next to your house early in the morning when you have a day off 😂
The balrog just wanted and try'd to sleep but the dwarfs started to bang and slam on things and making all kinds of rokus, so what can you expect of a balrog.
@ThePhilosophersGames I just watched your Aragorn video and read some of the comments and I have a request for a video: Things in the lore and plot of Tolkein's universe that were clearly affected by the philosophical/social currents of his time: world wars and 1. great battles for domination 2. the concepts of loyalty, treason and mental coercion the situation between Aragorn Arwen and Elrond... asking her hand from her father... maybe discuss the parallels to that Silmarillion story I forgot the names of the characters In sum: things that would be better understood by people from 1940
I'm very saddened that the 5th edition D&D LotR books (at least the ones I have) don't have stats for Balrogs. I get that they're not enemies that a mortal party would normally face after the fall of Morgoth, but Durin's Bane is such an iconic enemy both in the books and in the movies. There are dragons in the books and they're not enemies to be taking on lightly either. My only guess as to why there isn't one is that by some backwards logic the Balrog would be too close statwise to a Balor and would be breaking copyright, even though Balors were clearly based on Balrogs.
Have you noticed that actually Gandalf is more feared to talk about the Nameless Things than the Balrog himself?!! Therefore, those unknown very ancient creatures are even more powerfull or dangerous than what Gandalf, the Balrog or even Sauron might be able to handle and control it!!! Pretty much in tune with the same obscure nature of Ungoliant herself! There is a hint of unreckognized Lovecraftian lore style influence!! (Eventhough actually Tolkien stated that only barely knew Lovecraft´s work at the 60´s after publishing The Lord of the Rings, he did´t acknoweldged that liked and loved Robert E. Howard´s Conan stories, and so as he was a member of Lovecraft´s literary circle the influence came into Tolkien. He might also have known the Lovecraftian horror forerrunners work as were Ambrose Bierce, Abraham Machen, Lord Dunnsany, Robert E. Chambers, Algernon Blackwood, Abraham Merritt, William Hope Hogdson, Bram Stoker and even some Edgar Allan Poe rather wierd stories.)
Lha Dzyan one of the things which interests me most in the book. Wish we got to see more, and yet, perhaps its best we didnt in order to keep the mystery. Would be so cool though. Loads of crazy stuff like the watcher in the water probably
@@onetwothreefourfive12345 I think the Watcher is related with the Nameless Things, also like the unknown creatures that made foul voices in the air at Caradhras´s Pass - and might be very linked with the mountain´s legendary evil nature even before the Orcs came there (though might be also related with the Stone Giants at the High Pass that appeared briefly at The Hobbit too) - and whatever Aragorn recalled from his unknown travels trought the world, as some "ancient evil things not in joint with Sauron but neverthless hideous". All of that, and a Dark Rider/Hunter at the Sillmarillion, as well Ungoliant obscure origins and true nature, seems to hide some uncanny Lovecraftian-like cosmic ancient horror lore far more different on the main plot of his work, but that he didn´t liked to develop more, sadly.
You're extremely accurate and cover points and counter points, bud sadly I haven't learned anything new. I'm worried now I've consumed all that is Tolkien!
Thank you ^^ haha yes that can happen, if you are too deep into Tolkien's lore. I sometimes get answers by people, who clearly know Tolkien's works very well and I'm always a bit surprised, that they watch my videos, because my intent is usually to interest new people and maybe bring them to read Tolkien's works. Also to bring people to re-read, etc. I also guess that this topic here was discussed a lot already, so there was nothing new, that I could add. The Balrog was attacked, not enough space to fly, etc all well known arguments. I like the idea, that the wings are just there to speed them up a bit and the idea that some animals move their body parts to increase their surface to appear bigger, when they feel threatened, etc.
@@ThePhilosophersGames That topics been debated on Balrogs since their mentioned with and without wings. Fire is just the state of an object heated until combustion, darkness is the absence of light, neither are actually things. That combined with Balrogs being Miair, suggests they did not have a fixed state of physical being. No body talks about how the Balrog Gandalf fought transformed when they fell into the underground river, like "a serpent of ooze" i think...Book 2 when Gandalf rejoins the story as the White.
Being “thrown down” doesn’t mean that they just stopped being able to fly: it means that they were killed and fell. Glorfindel was caught up with the balrog and no doubt struck the killing blow while so entangled. Also, a bird that is wounded is often unable to fly if wounded severely enough. None of this disproves the winged nature of balrogs as depicted in most media or the “winged speed” reference.
It clearly does, because there is in all of Tolkien's works not a single flying Balrog, but multiple that fall down. For sure the circumstances can be blamed, maybe a wounded wing, the area in Moria was to small to fly, etc. But that is not in the texts. > "Many are the songs that have been sung of the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss." - The Silmarillion, Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin The more detailed version we find in the Fall of Gondolin book describes it a bit more detailed (no wings are mentioned though, Glorfindel pierced its belly and it fell down, grabbing his golden hair, the Elf fell down too), but it's probably quite old. The Balrog in this version wears e.g. a helmet, which I only remember being mentioned in early drafts, where Balrogs were still far less powerful, but there were an army of them. Tolkien later decreased their number to about 7-8, but made each of them powerful as an army. Interestingly in very old drafts Melkor captured Great Eagles to learn the secret of flight from them (so his servants would be able to fly too), but they did not tell him. > "Melko, for Melko had caught many of his kindred and chained them against sharp rocks to squeeze from them the magic words whereby he might learn to fly (for he dreamed of contending even against Manwe in the air); and when they would not tell he cut off their wings and sought to fashion therefrom a mighty pair for his use, but it availed not." - Book of Lost tales Part 2 Things obviously changed and a theoretical possibility of flying Balrogs remains, but there is simply not much evidence for it. Wings are not even mentioned for Balrogs except Durin's Bane (and "winged speed" once) and even Durin's Bane did not fly. I could also claim: Durin's Bane was the only Balrog with wings. But there is not evidence for this either. However there is also no evidence for Balrogs flying. Feel free to disagree, but that does not make my argument wrong.
@@ThePhilosophersGames I disagree. I think the statement "it's wings were spread from wall to wall" pretty clearly establishes wings, at least for Durin's Bane. Again, a badly wounded avian can often not fly. That isn't limited to just the wings being wounded. More muscles than just the wing muscles would be used in flight the same way that more than just arms are used for archery or swimming or climbing. The Professor's intention might initially not have been for them to have wings, but I stand by the belief that Durin's Bane had them at least.
Back when there we're many balrogs during the war, they came in a variety of different types. Some could fly just like the dragons of Morgoth. Let's not forget that they like Gandalf are maiar (spell check fail) and are magical beings that can do many things...(turn into a bird and crack snails against a gray stone). So saying that they didn't have wings is opinionated and nowhere factual. I can agree it's open for self interpretation but I does mention wing's multiple times. Even the cartoon gave durins bane wings lol. Great channel btw, keep the videos coming. 🖒🤘
I would not argue against them having wings, but they never fly, which is imo a strong argument. In old drafts of Tolkien Melkor also tries to find out the secret of flight from the Great Eagles, but he is not successful. Ofc you are right, it's still possible and based on your interpretation, but Balrogs fall down several times and it seems wings don't really affect them. Ofc you can make an argument for the being wounded, not enough space to fly, but that is not explicitly stated in the texts. So from my perspective them not able to fly (and maybe just to move faster) seems the most likely case.
Just because you can jog doesn't mean if a mugger jumped on you repeatedly stabbing you that you would continue to jog along. And it states that when melkor was trapped in ungoliand web that he called for help. The balrogs flew to his aid like a fiery winged tempest. Although this is still open to interpretation since it could be argued that it simple describes adjatively the speed in which they travel. I feel Tolkien left alot of enigmas so that each reader could imagine his work differently. So wings vs wingless, flight vs flightless, will always be debated without irrefutable evidence. 🕊🐲🕸🕷
Also it's compelling how Tolkien used the term fly and flight loosely. Flight to the Fjord and the infamous line: fly you fools, while falling with the balrog. Fly and flight both cases are used adjatively as use haste. Both views have many terms that represents their points.
