How did Gandalf get his Staff back - How powerful was it? - Tolkien and LotR Lore 

Yes he was send back by Eru. I just speculated if he maybe went to the halls of Mandos before Eru called him. I think there you can argue, that he did not enter the halls of Mandos too.

@@ThePhilosophersGames Yea I am also willing to bet his new powers, white staff and raiment were personally granted to him by Eru as well. So maybe this time he became an emissary of Eru as opposed to the Valar since Eru brought him back?

@@user-zm1rq6xj9v He got the clothes in Lothlorien. That's said in LotR.

@@vexaris1890 So did he still have his grey clothes when he came back, or did he show up there naked? xD

@@user-zm1rq6xj9v Apparently he showed up naked, at least that's what we have to assume. Gwaihir picked him up naked and brought him to Lothlorien.

haha that's probably the best explanation I heard so far ^^

HAHAHA

What about when Saruman took it and imprisoned him on top of the tower of Orthanc? It's obvious that the staff is a "power focus" that Gandalf CAN make a new version of at will. This can also be surmised from the fact that his staff was destroyed by Saron in Gal Dalgur yet he had another one later at the battle of the five armies.

His hat has +%50 magic find

My dumb brain first read this as “Balrog Stew”, which sounds pretty good actually.

:D

while being naked :D

Gandalf: "Iv fallen and I cannot get up! Galadriel! GALADRIEL! Are you there?!" Galadriel: "Here, have a stick." True story.

"Please tell me we don't eat lembas again..."

Despite Gandalf being way superior to Galadriel

That is all from the films and none of it actually happened except the Moria bit. In the books they barely mention his staff. The same one he presumably had throughout The Hobbit he has when Saruman imprisons him and he escapes Orthanc with it. It breaks on the Bridge of Khazad Dum when he breaks the bridge. When next we meet him it just states he has a staff, presumably given to him by Galadriel when he is clothed in white after being sent back. The Witch-king doesn't destroy it at all and presumably this is the one that he takes to the Undying Lands at the end of the books.

5 staffs 5 wizards

But how does he get it back from Saruman in order to fight the Balrog? Sure the book version is different but im talking about the film version

Yes! Just like you say, I have always seen the wizard's staff as an extension of his own body.

Kinda like a finger up the butt hole

I like this explanation :)

I feel the same, but I think they also use the staff to disguise the use of power. People believe the staff has some magic power, but it is really them using more of their actual power with an “excuse” on why they can do it.

i always wondered if the reborn Gandalf found Glamdring and Narya at hand and grasped them when he was retrieved by Gwaihir. One can only deduce so... but maybe best to not overthink those details.

I practice magic too. Whst about you?

@@joeyschuchardt8695 define magic

@@joeyschuchardt8695 I practice wizardry, which includes a wide range of skills. Some of it could be called magic.

@@merlin4real I'm a born again Christian prophet so I tend to stick bible based practices like hoodoo and southern conjure folk magic. But recently I've begun practicing primitive shamanism. Nice to meet another practitioner.

This is amazing

That is ofc correct, but Glorfindel is also on a mission coming from Aman (like Gandalf) and he is not established in Middle-earth too. In a sense he is just a "lone ranger" or a "guest" in Middle-earth too. Galadriel had her own realm and he knew where to find her and that she could help him, giving him cloth and a new staff.

Ho! Ha-ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!

@@wizardsuth I'm sorry, but I just can't believe that you're the real Gandalf. Don't bother. I'll join you. Just call me Friar Duck.

Yes he definitely was sent back by Eru. I worded that very carefully, because I speculated that he might have entered the Halls of Mandos first and then "to" Eru, but after further looking into the texts, I would agree, he almost certain did not go there.

yet, we know the Valar could do something about death, since Luthien "died" and was sent back by them, albeit with Iluvatar's permission, though I don't think it was explicit.

I wonder if Eru represents true neutral.

Yes this was a question I got a lot and I thought it was a fun topic to cover. I should have mentioned that in the books Gandalf only loses his staff once though, while in the films he loses it all the time.

Yes, I think it's an interesting topic too. I maybe could have went through all scenes, when Gandalf uses his staff, but it would not change my point I guess (I also plan to make that for another video about magic, that I will make at some point). I really like how Tolkien handles magic in general in his works. It's quite subtle and well implemented into his world. It has some thought behind it, but also offers enough mystery.

@@ThePhilosophersGames I couldn't agree more! Tolkien's use of magic really is quite unique and subtle and is brilliantly implemented into his world, cannot wait to see your video on it! :)

That was well worded! Thank you :)

@@ThePhilosophersGames hey the dark prophet of youtube also has a staff. Hes gonna do a real life lord of the rings movie soon. Click me to see some of his older writing

I agree, there are also scepters some leaders use, Manwe, Numenor kings, etc...

Thank you :) happy you enjoyed my videos for so long. Can't believe how fast the time went ^^

@@ThePhilosophersGames same here

Thank you, happy you liked it :) It also was a good question and even before I started the vote for the topics, I knew that I would combine those questions. A perfect fit. Yes agreed. It generates some mystery, which is interesting for the reader and fits into the field of "mythology", but also encourages to make your own thoughts (it's also interesting that I answered something quite similar to another comment just a few minutes ago ^^).

Since you encourage asking lore questions, I would like to take advantage of it and propose a topic which has been bothering me for quite sometime: Why do the elves in Middle Earth have so few children? We all know about seven sons of Feanor but apart from that it has been one to three sons or daughters at the most. Isn't there simply not enough souls in the halls of Mandos or do the elves wish to be reborn in Aman instead of Middle Earth? Or do they have fertility problems? :) Thanks for your time and effort which you put in making videos for this channel. I really enjoy them and your philosophical approach to Tolkien's work.

No problem and thank you for watching. According to the History of Middle-earth books (mainly Morgoth's Ring if I recall correctly) the elves have something like different life cycles. In their first they marry and get children at some point and then this desire to have children goes away and they enter their second where they probably focus on greater things and third where they are getting "old", e.g. male elves can have a beard like Círdan. Usually they have like 2-5 children in this first cycle and 7 with Finwë (who took a new wife, after his first wife "died" when she gave birth to his first son Fëanor (her spirit was weary and a bit after giving birth left her body)) was quite an exception among elves. This is also debated at length in Morgoth's Ring. Another component could be, that they had no health issues, well developed societies and were basically immortal. We see a comparable phenomenon in our world too. The more developed a country is and the older people get on average there, the smaller is the birthrate. There might be some cultural differences too, but Japan or e.g. Germany have very low birthrates. People become parents quite late compared too 50-70 years ago. I think this phenomenon could apply to elves too. They have all the time and focus on all kind of other things of self fulfillment, so that having children is not a priority (e.g. for their species to survive). And probably when they get close to their second life cycle, it's too late. And they only have few or no children. They probably also don't need that many children, because elves are around for some time ^^ At some point Aman would be over populated.

in the book Saruman did not take it. In Frodo's vision at Tom Bombadils's house of Gandalf escaping from Isengard, he sees his staff. For the film we don't know.

Thank you for you kind words :) I'm always happy, when people enjoy my videos. The Silmarillion can be a tough read. I would say starting with The Lord of the Ring and The Hobbit is the best way. You will notice that The Hobbit feels a bit different compared to LotR, because originally it was not part of the LotR universe, but Tolkien changed this with the Second Edition (some small changes here and there). So that's something to keep in mind. After those I think it's the LotR Appendices (at least the lore ones) and then the Silmarillion and then maybe Unfinished Tales. I originally used the Silmarillion as some kind of Compendium to understand the lore of LotR and to find answers for my lore questions. It looks like a short book, but the information is so condensed in it, it's like a history book. After all of this you can also check the 12 History of Middle-earth books if you still hadn't enough ^^ They are about the creation process of the books (esp. the Silmarillion) and discuss Tolkien's later notes and ideas + special cases. It's imo difficult to define what's canon and what's not with them. I hope that helps ^^

@@ThePhilosophersGames thanks man, really appreciate the thorough advice. I'm very glad I asked! The Hobbit is where I'll start then, thanks again

Thank you :) Also happy holidays to you ^^

yes good point

Thank you, happy you enjoyed my videos :)

ThePhilosophersGames have you ever played “the third age total war”? It would be epic if you eventually make a review of the game if you have. :)

Not yet. I plan to do a War in the North Review, maybe after that ^^

ThePhilosophersGames Sounds awesome I’ll stay tuned! 😊

Yes maybe should have included it, but in the book he only loses his staff once in Moria (it shatters when he hits the bridge with it, which funnily enough does not happen in the film ^^). After that he gets a new one. But e.g. in Orthanc he is imprisoned by Saruman and his guards, but Gandalf keeps his staff. In the films he loses them constantly (as you said). So he seems to have some spare staffs there, but I have no lore explanation for it ^^ He only gets one new staff in Lothlórien, when Gwaihir flies him there after he awakes as Gandalf the White.

@@ThePhilosophersGames Well if Saruman lets him keep it in the book it's another indication that it's not actually a threat. Does Wormtongue insist they "get the Wizard's staff!" in the book?

Yes that is in the book too. There are some slight differences in the film I guess, but that is basically what happens.

Thank you :) Yes, this year was insane and sadly I didn't play too many games (I also play on PC only), still happy to hear that some people enjoy my gaming content, too! Also great question. I wrote it down into my notes ^^

Im a bit rusty on Tolkien, so apologies if im stupid. The Mirror of Galadriel shows many things, though it wouldn't tell her directly she must have been able to divine that Gandalf went into a dark place from which he did not return. She knew of Gandalf's purpose, of Saruman's corruption, and what might happen. I've always been confused by Saruman the White maintaining his position after Sauron corrupted him.

WeedyistFlame420 Great point about the Mirror. It may have shown her that he had returned and perhaps even where he was so she could send Gwaihir after him. What do you mean about Saruman retaining his position after being corrupted?

@@thestraightroad305 might be why wasn't he expelled or something. If so, the answer is simple: the others did not know.

He still had some power after Gandalf broke his staff. I think it was Eru who gave Gandalf the White the authority to "break his staff". In this Saruman lost his authority, visible for all. All could see how his staff broke. How can he be powerful if Gandalf just breaks what is in his hands by speaking some words. I think the staffs were more like tools. Maybe they also helped the Istari to channel some power or express their authority over parts of the world, but as explained Gandalf was still able to fight a Balrog for several days without it. The fight between Gandalf and Saruman is also not not in the books, but I think it works better visually esp. with the staffs.

Yes. He has probably multiple of them (they also look different in some scenes). Can't remember how it was in the books. There Saruman and Gandalf do not fight. Possible that Saruman still took it away from him.

Thank you :)

Thank you, happy you liked it and that you even subbed ^^ Much appreciated :) Yes this theory I got a few times here in the comments. It could be like a lens. Definitely a valid theory.

Agreed magic in Tolkien's work is really different, which I like a lot. It's quite interesting, that while all the great works you listed are definitely inspired by Tolkien to some degree, none of them took too much inspiration in the nature of magic (maybe in terminology). No problem, thank you too for watching, commenting and recommending my content ^^

Thank you :) Also happy you enjoy my gaming related videos, I like making them too. Agreed I would have not thought about the question, but when I red it, I thought not a bad topic at all, so i made the video ^^ That also an interesting question. I would say yes. Gwaihir also says, that the sun shines through him: ‘‘A burden you have been,’’ he answered, ‘‘but not so now. Light as a swan’s feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.’’

Yes good point. The staff is definitely mentioned less. Here's the passage again from the Siege of Gondor: "One wheeled towards him; but it seemed to Pippin that he raised his hand, and from it a shaft of white light stabbed upwards. The Nazgûl gave a long wailing cry and swerved away"

Thank you :)

Thank you :) I have a somewhat related video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-bI7AZbwkjvE.html No I don't think that they have a different fate or become immortal. They will die at some point and follow the fate of their people. (Hobbits are counted towards Men). It's just a special honour for them to go to Aman and heal from their burdens. Gimli is an interesting case, because Dwarves are probably not banned from Aman (which is different for Men).

Yes he "loses" a lot of them ^^ haha good question. Does he have warranty on the staffs or maybe an insurance?

I know he loses his staff in Fellowship, and then again against the Witch King in Return of the King, so that's twice...but when was the third time he lost it in the LOTR trilogy?

GanonGhidorah doesn’t he lose it during his fight vs Saruman at Isengard?

@Captain Caveman That was the Harbor Freight staff?

I sadly don't have a very interensting answer. In the book Saruman does not take Gandalf's staff away. So he does not lose it here. In the films - as you say - he seems to have several backup staffs ^^

ThePhilosophersGames Doesn’t it seem weird that he would allow him to keep his staff?

That is true, but what does Wormtongue know? He may know it has some use, but I think Gandalf without it defeating a Balrog, a being so powerful that it could end the most powerful Dwarf Kingdom in History alone, is a pretty good argument ^^

I think that's a weird one, because the books imply that Théoden was poisoned by Gríma too. Ofc th staff is mentioned, but it still represents his authority and is a useful tool.

Gandalf was allowed entrance like the others but without their weapons. Clearly Wyrmtongue considered the staff as dangerous as the rest of the company’s arsenal

Robert Vecchiarello He would know that from his service to Saruman. I agree.

Yes it's only in the extended version and also one of the few changes I don't really understand. It's not in the book (the Witchking hears Rohan's army arriving and leaves Gandalf be). Gandalf actually only loses his staff once in the book and that is in Moria, where it shatters, when he destroys the bridge with the Balrog on it. Interestingly the staff does not shatter in the film ^^

Yes that's a possibility too ^^

Yes in the movies for sure, esp. the fight between Saruman and Gandalf indicates this. In the books it seems a bit different though.

interestingly it seems in the book Saruman did not take his staff, when he imprisoned Gandalf. There's a hint in a dream/vision of Frodo (I think in Tom Bombadil's house), where Frodo sees Gandalf escape, but here he has his staff. The films seem not explain how he got it back though, but Gandalf seems to have some spare staffs ^^

That's a good point.

That's an interesting thought.

I think we don't know an exact number, but it was so deep, that there we nobody before (Gandalf saw "Nameless Things", that not even Sauron knew about). The dwarves however once build a staircase to a very low region, which the Balrog knew the way to. these stairs led from far below the earth up to the top of the mountain.

Isn't this a contradiction? > After Saruman’s staff is broken, he can no longer use his magical powers. > Gandalf defeats the Balrog without his, but doing so essentially burns out his body Why should there be other rules for Gandalf? "Burns out his body" is also your interpretation of what happens. Quote from LotR: "I threw down my enemy, and he fell from the high place and broke the mountain-side where he smote it in his ruin. Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell." This is all we know. But if the staff is needed, why can he defeat a Balrog? We can even read: Those that looked up from afar thought that the mountain was crowned with storm. Thunder they heard, and lightning, they said, smote upon Celebdil, and leaped back broken into tongues of fire. So Gandalf not having power without his staff makes no sense. It's factually wrong. So what's with Saruman? How about Saruman can't use his power because he was officially expelled from the order by Gandalf the White who was sent back by Eru himself? The staff was for sure convenient. Maybe even to "channel" power, but it was definitely not necessary for at least Gandalf. There is no greater magical deed than fighting a Balrog for 10 days and killing it (without his staff).

@@ThePhilosophersGames Yea I am going to agree with ThePhilosopherGames on this one

@@ThePhilosophersGames The point concerning a lack of supporting textual evidence for Gandalf burning himself out without his staff is firmly conceded. But bear in mind that Saruman losing his power because he was cast from the order also has no textual evidence. The one correlating factor is the loss of his staff. As a counter point, however, Gandalf DID possess the Ring of Fire, Narya. This could explain why he was able to call upon lightning to strike the Balrog. After all, Gandalf was known for his affinity with fire and lights. His possession of Narya could have influenced this and even allowed him greater control. I know that Elrond said The Three "were not made as weapons of war or conquest: that is not their power" but that may not mean they cannot be used to enhance the wearer's power in that regard.

Noted it. In case you can't wait, I have a bit of it in my SoW lore comparison video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-Y-gvR7ioJjA.html (there should be times in the description)

haha ^^

lol

Yes that's a good point. He destroyed everyone he met until he met Gandalf.

The answer is pretty boring ^^ In the books he did not lose it in Orthanc and Saruman and Gandalf do not fight. Saruman and I assume his guards (it's just stated "they") took Gandalf to the top of Orthanc over a narrow stair, where he was imprisoned. The vision/dream Frodo has of this in Tom Bombadil's house indicates, that Gandalf had indeed still his staff on top of Orthanc (it's described in the vision/dream). How he gets it back in the film nobody knows though ^^

ThePhilosophersGames he didn’t get his staff back in the film, he just got a new one. They look kinda similar but if you look closely you can see they’re very different.

Ron Delby actually his staff wasn’t strong it was a base so Gods power could go through it to do all the miracles that Moses showed through his staff

It was a snake disguised, possibly by a polymorph spell, into a Staff. There's a difference.... >.

Would it be powerful had someone else picked it up? Like a Sorcerer's Apprentice situation? My guess is no.

Moses was a wizard confirmed

@@willyg2k10 hahaha yeah

Yes, in the books, Saruman does not take away Gandalf's staff, when he is imprisoned on the top of Orthanc. In the films he has (I think) 2 different staffs as Gandalf the Grey. One with his pipe on it (but no crystal) and then the one with the crystal (which also appears in the Hobbit if I recall correctly).

@@ThePhilosophersGames Hmm... maybe. I thought he put the crystal in place as they entered Moria, for illumination.

yes, that's possible too, have to re-watch this scene at some point ^^

losthor1zon he has two different staffs in FOTR. The one he loses to Saruman and the one he replaces the previous one with. They’re very similar looking but if you look closely you can see they’re two different objects. You’re right though, he does place the crystal in the staff to illuminate the mines of Moria.

ThePhilosophersGames the staff Gandalf has in The Hobbit is a different one from the two that appear in FOTR.

Yes good point. Ofc Gandalf also has many similarities to e.g. Odin (and Tolkien was very familiar with the mythology too). He definitely had multiple inspirations.

haha :D

Lol he flew with an eagle he didn't wander naked

@@Prince_the_One haha yes, but he flew on it naked 😅 And he had to land in Lothlórien to get new clothes

@@ThePhilosophersGames in my mind the eagle took him directly to Galadriel and she knew he was coming anyway because she the Lady of the Wood and she had some robes ready lol

oh pretty interesting point 👍

Agreed, you are right. I worded it like this: "She is one of two known elves in Middle-earth in the Third Age, who have seen Aman, the Undying Lands, with their own eyes." We only know about Galadriel and Glorfindel. Gildor could be. I think he was intended once intended to be the son of Finrod. In this case it depends on when he was born. Galadriel's child was born probably early Second Age, so one could argue it could be a similar time for him (but it was changed by Tolkien anyway). The idea, that he want to Elbereth could mean both. That he never has seen Aman and wants to see it or that he misses it. There could be some evidence that he is an Exile, but i would need to look deeper into it. Would be indeed an interesting topic for a video ^^ When it comes to other elves: my argument would be, that they probably left Middle-earth by now. Galadriel also has this exile story (Tolkien changed his mind several times here) going on, which indicates a bit, that an Elf of her age would have left Middle-earth already. In this sense maybe only the "First Age of the Years of the Sun Elves" are left. Still there could be other. E.g. it is indicated, that the White Council maybe had other members. So ofc there could be more Elvish lords of old, but we don't know about them.

Ah. You say twice in your reply that Tolkien changed his mind. I think that's what I love about Tolkien most: his ever-changing mythos & the contradictions he left for us to ponder. Perhaps you're correct & Gildor was once supposed to be the son of Finrod. But what Tolkien left for us was that Finrod never married & that's what he turned Nargathrond over to his brother Orodreth. And since Finrod died to protect Beren in the First Age, he couldn't have possibly fathered a son in the Second Age. And yes, I've always wondered about the White Council members. The movies lead us to believe that it consisted of Saruman, Gandalf, Galadriel & Elrond. But the books include Cirdan & Glorfindel. I've always wondered about Erestor, Radagast, Celeborn, Thranduil & others. I guess I'll always have to wonder...LOL!

@@hotmale5221 well isn't that the sign of a true mythology. It is actually a shame the Tolkien estate guards what is considered canon so closely as it goes completely against the idea of mythology. Mythology are origin stories that change over time and are different for everyone who knows them, people give them their own spin when retelling. People nowadays seem too obsessed with 'the true story' to get the magic of a mythology. It has to be covered in mystery and shrouded in the unknown; after all it's mythology, not history. The two usually overlap but descerning the history from mythology is difficult and usually imprecise. Look, for example, at all the effort historians have gone through to find the real city of Troy.

I write the question down. It's also Difficult question, but I plan on doing a video about him in the near future anyway. PS: Thank you, I'll try :)

Tom Bombadil did render aid in his own way when he aided the hobbits. But as a possible Maier, I believe he was forbidden to act directly by the Valar. The use of his abilities would have seriously upset the balance of natural life in Middle Earth. Especially seeing he had more power and dominance of will than the One Ring.

Tom IMO was lord of his manor and old reflection of Tolkien's time; A man's rule ends at his property.

Great channel btw - very informative and entertaining 👌

Thank you, happy you like it :) The answer is probably very unspectacular, but in the book Gandalf simply does not lose his staff. He is led by "them" (I assume Saruman and some guards) up to the tower over a narrow stair and has to stay there. In a dream/vision Frodo has of this in Tom Bombadil's house he sees how Gandalf is picked up by a Great Eagle at night and he also his staff is mentioned in this dream/vision. Then Gwaihir flew him to Edoras (Rohan), where Gandalf took Shadowfax and rode back to the Shire from there. I think the next mention of his staff is in Rivendell during the council. But it seems he never lost his staff there and the films just porreyed it very differently. I think I mention it in my LotR films and books references and differences series, if you are interested. But I dont know what episode. I think it's in episode 12 or 13: ru-vid.com/group/PLvqIed90tYZoiZZ-mAGxp6NnUrdURe0Uq

According to the lore Maglor (the last surviving son of Fëanor; foster father of Elrond) is still alive, wandering the shores of Middle-earth in despair and regret after he tossed his Silmaril into the ocean. PS: I'm doing desearch for a video right now and your comment came back to my mind. I totally forgot another very important Elf Lord: Glorfindel. he was born in Aman and is present during the Third Age (probably even during half of the Second Age). So there are three Elves. He actually might be the other Elf I meant in the staff video ^^ In addition I found this quote: "And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas." - The Lord of the Rings, Many Meetings This hints at more unnamed Elf-lords from Aman

@@ThePhilosophersGames thanks for your answer 👍

That's a very nice theory. I like it. How likely it is is hard to say though. I think not getting away was not Gandalf's plan, but maybe he saw it coming. I guess it was his fate. Maybe with this his fate was sealed, who knows.

That's a very good point. I always assumed this means: he did not go to the Valar (or council with them), but to Eru. So it was not the power of the Valar that sent him back. Imo he could have gone to Eru through the Halls of Mandos too (like Men do in a sense), so I assumed he would go there first and then to e.g. the Timeless Halls. But you are probably right. Another detail is ofc that this is from a draft letter, that seems not to be sent.

@@ThePhilosophersGames I sometimes wonder if the Valar would have even bothered to send Gandalf back if they could; given that their emissaries up till that point weren't doing such a bang up job. I don't think they would have the power to create such a drastic change in Gandalf as seen in Gandalf the white. There was something different about Gandalf than a mere increase in power. Merry and Pippin noted a sort of shift in his personality.

I fully agree imo it's really important that Eru brings Gandalf back. I don't think the Valar would have the power to "change" Gandalf in this way. And who knows, the story could have taken a different end, if the Valar would have sent him back. In addition Gollum's fate of tripping and falling down into the fiery pits of Mount Doom was also Eru's work. So Eru intervened in the events of The Lord of the Rings quite massively.

This does not happen in the books. The Witchking has to shift his focus and just flies away. What is also interesting to to note: this scene (staff gets destroyed) is as far as I know only in the extended cut. Also as explained in the video, Gandalf can get or make a new staff as long as he stays true to his mission too.

Thank you!

Did I quote a line wrong? For LotR Quotes sometimes the lines are slightly different in the book (I usually go with the book quote). I guess when you haven't seen scene for a long time you mind changes it a bit in it's memory and in social media other people have this too and quite it wrong, so the effect gets amplified because you read the wrong quote a lot. PS: I'm also bad a memorizing quotes precisely.

ThePhilosophersGames no no not you! i was wondering aloud simply bc ppl often forget “you shall not pass” was the second line from gandalf (therefore not the only), and “i am your father, luke” is the line i believe; not the one most quote as “luke, i am your father”. nothing at all to do w you, your vids are fantastic!

You have to consider that the books are in parts a bit different and I focus on the books in my videos. E.g. the fight between Saruman and Gandalf never happens in the books. How Gandalf gets imprisoned by Saruman on the top of Orthanc is not really known, but a fight is not mentioned. Ofc Gandalf uses his staff, e.g. to break the bridge in Moria and the staff breaks doing this in the books. He can definitely do "magic with it" (in their Istari form it probably also helps to focus their power, who knows. so I wouldn't disasgree with you here), but from a lore perspective he is an angelic entity, that doesn't even need a physical form to begin with. And they often use word, that have power and authority (e.g. in song). So Gandalf also doesn't need a staff to manifest his powers. In addition Gandalf rarely uses magic, his true power is to connect and guide people and form powerful alliances to fight Sauron. He gives the ways of fate little nudges to lead it there, where it needs to be. Definitely his greatest power and it's based on his wisdom and foresight.

@@ThePhilosophersGames Yes I agree there are differences between the books and movies. One point that occurred to me just now, is where the staff is vital to performing magic when the guards mistakenly allow gandalf to take his staff into the hall of Theoden of Rohan, against the wishes of Grima..

Yes that's a good example.

Yes agreed. I could imagine too that the staffs are just there to create mystery (so we can spin our own imagination around this) and the feeling of mythology. Also thank you for your detailed comment :)

And thank *you* for the video! I love this kind of stuff and just discovered your channel.

haha no problem :) Happy you found your way to my channel ^^ I'm actually surprised that I get a lot of attention right now. Subscriber rate has liked doubled this month

Surprisingly in the books Saruman did not take his staff, so he still had it when he was picked up by Gwaihir. In the films it's different, but not explained. he probably got a new staff.

@@ThePhilosophersGames Thanks for the quick response, prob just a continuity error lol. Thanks again :)

no problem ^^ Yes you are right, probably just a continuity error. Funnily enough in the book, Gandalf's staff explodes when he hits and splits the bridge of Khazad-dûm with it, but in the film that does not happen 😂

I think I did the mistake of seeing this question as a pure book question. In the books it seems Gandalf does not lose his staff in Isengard. Frodo has a vision of Gandalf escaping from Isengard: "The figure lifted his arms and a light flashed from the staff that he wielded." (LotR, In the House of Tom Bombadil). Here it seems he still has it. It's ofc justa vision/dream of Frodo, but it's also not hinted at that Saruman took it away from him. I think that would be a step Saruman was not yet willing to do. Taking away the smybol of authority of another Istari without a good reason, was probably something he did not want and further he wanted Gandalf joinging him. So they did also not fight in the book, but there is a narrow staircase up and Gandalf was brought up by "them" (maybe Saruman and some guards?). How he gets it back in the film is unfortunately never explained. But I guess when he can get a new staff in Lothlórien, he can also get a new one in Rivendell.

In Khazad-dûm/Moria? No it was still intact after slamming it on the ground. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mJZZNHekEQw.html

Good question, difficult to answer :D Quote from LotR, The White Rider: Then darkness took me, and I strayed out of thought and time, and I wandered far on roads that I will not tell. Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done. I interpret it, that Gandalf was ofc sent back by Eru and his authority (because he is the only one who could have done this), but usually Aman, Mandos and Manwë are involved (to some degree) too in other examples of "re-embodiment". Esp. since in this description his "task" is explicitly mentioned, which he received from the Valar (as stated in the letter). The Valar were ofc close to Eru and his will, so why should he not have returned to Aman? The latter talks more about the authority. When Saruman dies, we can read in LotR: For a moment it wavered, looking *to the West* ; but out of *the West* came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a sigh dissolved into nothing. He was a Maia and Istar too and here we have Aman directly referenced (I also would argue, that Eru's authority was involved here too). But what is interesting: he looked to the west, so wanted to return, but was denied. And it seems the Istari actually wanted to return (Unfinished Tales, The Istari): For it is said indeed that being embodied the Istari had need to learn much anew by slow experience, and though they knew whence they came the memory of the Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they *yearned* exceedingly. So why should it be different with Gandalf? Ofc it could be (no question), but in my opinion this has some room interpretation. In addition Bilbo refers to Manwë's and Varda's halls as "timeless halls" in LotR too: He came unto the *timeless halls* where shining fall the countless years, and endless reigns the *Elder King* in *Ilmarin* on Mountain sheer In this context the phrase "strayed out of thought and time" can be interpreted this way. Maybe just passing by to enter Eru's halls/Timeless Halls. However that is my reasoning and why I said "I assume" (I said: "probably went to Aman" but that#s what i meant. i also don't say, that he was sent back by the Valar). I tried to word this carefully, because you can for sure argue differently.

@@ThePhilosophersGames The task indeed was put in place by the Valar, but the first sentence of that quote distinctly frames it that the Valar were no longer the ones running the show; Eru took over and superceded them. The Valar of course are involved in the reembodiment of the Elves, but concerning other Ainur, they embodied themselves, as is suggested the Istari did ("For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh..."). The problem Gandalf faced at that time, if the task were ever to continue, is the time it takes for killed incarnate Ainur to rebuild their power after death to hope to reincarnate again (see Sauron). Gandalf returns within 10 days, so presumably Eru has interfered, not only to spiritually enhance Gandalf, but to speed up his reembodiment. But more importantly do also note that Gandalf isn't actually given a new body anyway. When Gandalf dies, his fallen body remains atop Celebdil while his spirit leaves Eä, and Eru then puts him back into the same body. This is why Gandalf is naked, having been burned from the flames of Durin's Bane, and why he then went to Lothlórien for "physical healing and refreshment" (Letter #156).

I think we have a small misunderstanding (I agree with you). You interpret things into my answer, I haven't wrote :) To quote my self: I interpret it, that Gandalf was ofc sent back by Eru and his authority So we agree on this point -> Eru took over I also never said (not even in the video, I worded it careful there), that the Valar re-embodied him/sent him back or that they re-embody Ainur (I know, that Ainur can take a new physical form again by themeselves, when they are not diminished to "nothingness", see my video about Death in LotR). quote from my last answer: Aman, Mandos and Manwë are involved (to some degree) too in *other* examples of "re-embodiment" My point is not, that the Valar re-embody Gandalf, but that Aman is a place where a "faithful" Ainur could *probably* return after he "died" and we find at least evidence for their desire to return: "[...] Blessed Realm was to them a vision from afar off, for which (so long as they remained true to their mission) they yearned exceedingly. + Saruman's death, who looks into the west And that's basically the answer your original question ("Why do you presume that Gandalf went to Aman after he died atop Celebdil?"): I see that as one *possibility*. So basically: Celebdil -> Aman -> Eru But ofc, it could also be Celebdil -> Eru I think both are possible, and both have arguments, I'm also not sure, what is more likely. There is room for interpretation and in my opinion this little detail does not make a big difference. I personally like Celebdil -> Aman -> Eru a bit more.

lol

Bulk discount maybe

I don't think that they would borrow staffs ^^

Was this just a liberty taken by the film makers then? I just rewatched the hobbit trilogy extended cut and Radagast loans his staff to Gandalf

Yes, Radagast is only mentioned by Bëorn once in the Hobbit book and the Dol Guldur story is actually from the LotR Appendices, but Radagast does not appear in it. Interestingly Radagast actually appears in the LotR main story very shortly (he gives Gandalf message from Saruman to meet with the White Wizard in Isengard). But not mention of Radagast's staff.

Ahh ok so basically it's a case of the Movie straying away from the truth, possibly misrepresenting the nature of the Staffs for what ever reason. Of course I would always side with the books and Tolkens original vision. Ty

Yes, you could interpret it like this ^^

First he fell down into the deepest depth under the Misty Mountains below Moria into an underground see and there he chased the Balrog, who probably knew this place well, through caverns to a legendary stairway once built by the dwarves (but forgotten and only known in legend). It was called Endless Stair and led from these deep caverns up to the top of the mountain above it (Celebdil; part of the Misty Mountains). Gandalf chased and fought the Balrog for multiple days (if I recall correctly 8 days total and the fight on top lasted two full days).

Sorry for the late answer. Almost overlooked you comment =/ Yes that's a good point and common use for magic in fantasy (I also like the analogy). In LotR this is possible too, but there are multiple observations of magic without using a staff. E.g. Elrond is not described to have a staff (it's ofc not known how he summons the flood, but a staff would come out of nowhere), neither is Galadriel. In many cases song, the spoken word, command or will is used to "cast" magic and Maiar are often even more powerful than elves. Sauron is known to change is form and use songs to cast his magic. The Istari are the only (or one of the few) magic users, who have staffs at all and as explained, there are many instances where e.g. Gandalf uses magic without a staff.

Perhaps the sticks were used to be trusted by humans; Elves were very familiar with magic after all and would not be surprised by sudden magic. For men, on the other hand, it might help to make it seem as if the staff is the magical presence in the room not the person. I'm not terribly familiar with the books but I remember in the films, when Gandalf walks into Edoras, Grima is furious they didn't take his staff. So if this is the same in the books he clearly believed a wizard's power comes from his staff. By making them think the staff is the source of a wizard's magic, the wizards let men feel in control and less threatened by a wizard's presence (as illustrated by Sam's fear of being turned into a toad after being caught eavesdropping).