I'm happy to say of all the versions of Batman Kevin Conroy has voiced, I don't think any of them were killers. Because Kevin Conroy was Batman, and Batman doesn't kill.
My favorite example of "Batman can't kill" is in the first Arkham game: Batman gets fear-gassed, and fights off a hoard of skeletons, hitting them so hard they shatter to bits. When the toxin wears off, Batman comes to, and is surrounded by K.O.'d thugs. Not dead, knocked-out. His non-lethal combat techniques are so honed, he can manage to avoid killing, even when he's completely out of his mind. That's how much literally can't kill.
Granted, that game can get ridiculous too and I often joked with my brother about how you can set an explosive off five centimeters away from a thugs face, smashing him against a metal rail that surely broke his back and let him fall from 20 meters on his face and he will still be "unconscious"
@@theunknowncommenter725 In the first few years of the original Batman comics from around 1938 to 1941 Batman killed criminals with his bare hands and he did have a gun for a few issues but he only used it on vampire cultists
@@minato_arisato3751 Technicly the events of the original Batman comics also happened on Earth 2 so it's still canon... unless Crisis on Multiple Earths changed the history on Earth 2 but honestly I don't remember that type of shit
And also that's what separates him from all the other Punisher/Red-Hood edgy style, anti heroes. But I still disagree with Batman's views on guns tho. When he has much more dangerous gadgets. That comic with Green Lantern was ridiculous LMAO.
It's not that Bruce Wayne is psychotic, he's just unhinged. He's convinced himself that if he were ever to kill one person, then he'd have no trouble considering doing it again. But I think the truth is, as this amazing video states, he won't admit to himself that he just can't. It's physically not possible for him to do so because of his past and trauma. A tragic character that has and will forever stand the rest of time. Legendary. 🦇🦇🦇
Every incarnation of Batman who has killed, became out of control and too dangerous (like the DCEU Batman), even villainous in some cases (like the Grim Knight) Bruce is right, he can't kill even once, or he'll never be able to come back to the light...
@Randall Flagg you're mostly right, however, DCEU Batman actually did manage to come back to the light, due to Superman. But, yeah, if it weren't for him, he'd still kill people lol.
I never thought of it as part of the trauma that way. I thought he wouldn't cuz he must be better. But it also being he can't kill cuz he's traumatized about what killing can do to others, as he knows from first hand experience.
"You may have been counting on Batman's morals against killing, and aversion to firearms..." *Loads shotgun* "But I assure you, I ascribe to no such niceties!" -Alfred Pennyworth
"Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'? Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps."
Because we often talk about Bruce's no kill rule and the line "the amount of people I've killed by letting you live" really puts into perspective how deeply Batman acknowledges that his endless mission is just that, endless. His conversation with (I think) Tim about not killing the Joker in revenge of him was so gut wrenching. Protecting people, protecting Gotham healed him, not vengeance. In a way, not killing is basically the only form of self-care Batman has ever allowed himself because he knows he would ultimately lose himself
A small, incredible detail is shown here. Batman was so principled, so hopeful, such a positive force for change that *Amanda Waller* recognized that respecting him would require emulating him.
I just realized something - just like Affleck killing indirectly led to the Knightmare timeline, Keaton killing indirectly led to Schumacher's Batman timeline... both terrible events for humanity.
Batman is the literal definition of "being 'just human' is not a good enough excuse for us to be savages, we are human yes, but we must try to be better, not worse."
As much as the way batman is written gets under my skin a lot, with how much plot armor he has and how much writers treat him as every other character’s superior, he is still a very interesting character, that when well written, is extremely moving.
@@Gojirawars03The thing is, Snyder gets that that's not Batman. That's a Batman that Gotham broke, and the plan was for him to realize what went wrong and become the Batman everyone knows and loves again. ...Of course also Snyder clearly just loved handing Batman a gun, but still.
You could argue there are a lot of reasons Batman doesn’t kill: If he goes to that place he’ll never come back It’ll bring up PTSD of seeing his parents die It’ll make him no better than the criminals he fights (not necessarily true but he might think it) Most of his villains have mental issues and have shown hope of rehabilitation
I would love a "reverse" of this video i.e. a video just like this showing the Batmen who *did* kill (Keaton, Affleck, Red Son, etc.) and how this led them down dark and terrible paths.
@GenX Catholic Yeah, that does make it hard... I *guess* you could spin it into a "look at the consequences" kind of thing and how that led to the Knightmare timeline and how much time travel shenanigans he had to do to make up for the terrors he ultimately caused? Like, redemption was *possible* but look how hard it was to actually get there.
“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement.” JRR Tolkien.
Batman has killed more villains by showing mercy than any number of guns and bullets ever could. Killing people only results in more pain, new enemies, but Batman truly kills supervillains by rehabilitating them and so brings an end to the needless cruelty.
@Adam X78 this is true of *all* heroes but some don't care and do it anyone. Main universe Batman is known for his amazing adherence to this extremely important principle, which is why he is one of my favorites (same as Clark).
Some people say that Batman can and has killed in the comics, maybe that is true, but at the same time it DOESN’T mean he should. Intfact he does all in his power not too. A comic that explores this really well is Batman ego.
@@lightspaceman5064 I like how in Under the Red Hood or the first Nolan movie he does leave someone to die as it would be too dangerous to save that villain
I don't mind him not killing, but I do mind are the writers bending the rules to their own benefit just to avoid killing the Joker specifically. The worst example of this by far is the Nolan verse. He, by all means, kills Ra's over a "technicality", he doesn't grief over killing Dent later on but he just HAS to save the Joker at the end. So many comics do this and it makes Bruce look like a selfish jackass.
Yeah, that part of the Nolan Batman made no sense. With his Dent and Ra's logic, he would have frayed Joker's cord when he was hanging upside down and said *gravity* killed him eventually LOL.
Think Nolan Batman could’ve worked with Dent if he was really ashamed for having to kill him to save Gordon’s son, but it almost looks like it was intentional to keep the positive perception of Dent alive. Like Batman can be made to break his rule, like when DCAU Batman uses a gun or when DKR Batman breaks Joker’s neck, but it has to be treated as unintentional or something that constitutes as Batman losing.
Yeah in a animated series episode (the first one were Harley and ivy team up) a place is exploding. Instead of saving one of the jokers 2 goons, he saves the joker
This was beautiful. I love that you followed up the "there would be no going back" type line with a Batman who did at least try to redeem himself from breaking the rule. For what it's worth I do love how the snyder batman gets to be the one batman who was "saved" from the abyss. That too, thanks to Superman.
Batman is my favourite superhero partly because of his view that all life is sacred and people can be redeemed. It makes sense that due to his trauma he can’t use a gun or kill anyone because than he would become Joe Chill. He struggles knowing it would be a smarter thing to do. He just can’t kill people no matter how much he wants to. RIP Kevin Conroy the greatest superhero of all time.
Killing is easy, not killing is tough. Crossing the line is easy, drawing and staying behind the line is hard. That's what makes batman/DC characters, heroes. Atleast for me
I still find it so ironic how Snyder got "inspired" by TDKR's Batman for his take on the character, yet when showing them side to side like it's done in this video, Batfleck contradicts the bare essentials of Batman's morale.
My favorite moment in the DCAU is from Batman Beyond, where Batman was about to be killed by a thug. He grabs a gun and points it at the thug, in his desperation he was about to kill. If he didn’t grab that gun then Bruce Wayne was going to die. But if he fired the gun, Batman would’ve died.
What people don't get when they talk about how much easier everything would be if Batman just killed all his rouges is that Batman isn't fighting just to beat up some clowns and guys with freeze rays. He's fighting for a better future in Gotham, a future where justice and fairness, not violence and pain, are what rule. And an unaccountable vigilante dressed as a bat who kills anyone he doesn't like isn't part of that future, it can't be. He'd be undermining the very notion of justice that he fights for.
Superheroes can never stoop to the level of the people theyre fighting. "Heroes always find another way" its not a realistic thing to strive for but superheores are not made to be realism theyre supposed to be idealism.
The reason why people hate Batman's "kill rule" is because of how frequently overused The Joker is in media. That's an added detail to why Heath Ledger's is treated as the best Joker. He is literally THE SPECIAL CARD. THE SPECIAL PLAY. Once Batman defeats him, it's for good but his impact is still felt around. You need to save that special villain for a special occasion. Also limiting the Joker a bit can help flesh out some other Batman villains and even bring new ideas for villains.
@@TooSweet353 100% the Joker is not supposed to just break out every other day, even if the ward is corrupt no one wants the Joker freed because when he’s out NO ONE is safe
I just discovered your channel last week and I have fallen completely in love. Your breakdowns are amazing I love your ability to dissect every character and show their mind, their character and what drives them. I wish so much I knew how to do that especially since I hate writing I don't hate essays just writing. But anyways keep it up I love this channel
I never thought I would see a video entirely based on editing with voice over from a channel about analyzing characters with voice over, let alone like it, but I guess that just goes to show how good at editing you are
Although I don’t mind alternate versions of Batman killing, such as Michael Keaton’s or Ben Affleck‘s portrayal of the character. But to me, Batman does not kill.
@@Gojirawars03 Keaton eliminated a threat to the city, and the people of that city praised him for it. END. PERIOD. Same with Two-face, this is why I hate Batman fans, lol.
I've been reading comic books my entire life but it's these videos that truly make me comfortable saying that the cartoons are a way better medium for exactly what batman is
wow man, I know this must've taken forever, but you really compiled the absolute best moments here, and they all work together so damn well. well done, really well done.
My only exception to the "Batman doesn't kill rule" that I like is the one from the Injustice side story. Why? Becasue while he does break his own rule and kills joker, he immediately gives himself up and faces justice for what he did. Yes he broke his only rule but while Clark tried to justify it Bruce faced what he did face on and payed the price.
Keaton has some moral code. Affleck has no moral code that is why his version is ad version. Much of the character development is done offscreen. He lost a Robin but we don’t know which one because we don’t see it happen. It is told to us which breaks film rule 101 show don’t tell.
The critics "You talk big using large words and quotes from philosophers. But I bet you can't make a video without speaking." *Implicitly Pretentious makes this video.* The critics ".....well you can't..." Leo "Shh, I proved you wrong. And I did it with style." (Seriously though, the editing for this video was top tier. Well done mate!)
3:56 "All the people I've murdered by letting you live..." That version of Batman understood that his hands were soaked in the blood of every person Joker had killed since the first time Batman spared him, the second time he just put him back in a cell, the third time he just locked him up again, the 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and on and on and on... Just because you weren't the one holding the knife doesn't make you innocent of the crime you're helping to perpetuate. All these characters obsessed with never taking a life avidly avoid the realization that sometimes, to protect life, you must be forced to take it. I learned this back when I read the Redwall book series as a child, I learned that the only way to have peace is to be prepared for its counterpart. I understand that, for Batman, he was rather literally terrified of just becoming a killer if he ever directly took a life, I'm just pointing out that he indirectly took so many lives that only he knew the final tally and only one version of Batman recognized this truth, or at least only one ever said it out loud. Every version of Batman have their hands soaked in blood that never touched them, but their drowning in it...
Even when Joker was inactive, there was still criminals that were just as bad (the Mutants). So you might as well not kill them since there wil always be more anyway.
@@joshheralal8758 ...so, basically your logic dictates no one should try to do anything against the bad guys, cause there will always be more bad guys, so they should all just give up and go home...
@@ArendelftSame logic can be applied to killing criminals, crime will not simply magically disappear from Gotham if the Joker is killed, power vacuums exists as well as the terrible conditions that the city is in that force fathers to become criminals for them to put bread on their tables for their kids. Killing will only make more orphans of which will potentially also be pulled into that world of darkness. But you know what stops that from happening? Look no further than Batman when he prevented a young Dick Grayson to fall into that pit of darkness when his parents where gunned down. The ideal Batman is the one that prevents kids to becoming criminals much more than any Red Hood or Punisher ever could, because at the end of the day, it doesn’t take a Joker to make another Joker, the ideal Batman with his rule directly fights against the very violence that took his parents away.
@@ArendelftYou don't stop the cycle by killing. After the Joker dies, someone else will take his place...Batman Beyond pretty much confirmed that. But Bruce cares for life above everything else. He believes everyone deserves a chance to break out of their cycle and become the best version of themselves. Him killing literally goes against everything he stands for. You may think some criminals deserve death (after a few genocides, yeah maybe the Joker deserves death). But it's not his call nor obligation to kill. It's his duty to bring hope for every single citizen of Gotham. Be it good or bad, everyone deserves a chance to dream for a better tomorrow.
@@joaquincortescasas8114 It isn't about whether the criminals deserve death, Batman did kill people, by letting the Joker commit genocide after genocide after genocide, by not killing directly himself, he was soaked in blood. Only the most naïve of people think that just because they didn't kill the person directly, that he didn't kill them. In the real world, good and bad are just words, if someone else quickly hops up to take the Jokers place, my question is, where were they while the Joker was alive and killing? Oh yeah, they were killing, they didn't just magically decide to become a killer just because the Joker died and there was a vacancy so they just stepped into the role, the only difference is that the spotlight shifted from the Joker, to them. So I guess the final question I have is, if them committing genocide is what makes it finally okay for Batman to kill them, not because they deserve it, but to protect people, how many before its genocide? Because that's a pretty nebulous word now that I look into it. Is ten enough? Twenty? A hundred? A thousand? How about we don't pick an arbitrary number. If the person is committing constant cold blooded murder and is an extreme escape artist, incapable of being incarcerated, not only not influenced by therapy but fully capable of damaging the minds of his therapists (Harley is not the only example) than how about we recognize that locking the Joker up, especially at Arkham, is a joke, and a bad one at that.
I don't understand why people are obsessed with wanting batman to kill. When batman kills he becomes an infinitely more boring character, like oh you took this really interesting character and took everything that made him interesting away, cool. People be like, he killed with guns in the early comics, oh cool, literally no one cares, it like saying superman shouldn't fly because he couldn't fly in his first appearance! Characters change for the from their first appearance, because if they didn't people would stop reading them
People who want Batman to kill are just forcing they're own justice in the character. I get mad when Batman saves Joker from others, but I would never want Batman himself to kill Joker. Trying to make him responsible for the bad things the villains do is just unfair.
I agree. People who say Batman should kill the joker DO want Batman going “Cuckoo ca coco puffs” on Gotham. Batman isn’t the judge, the jury, and he IS NOT Executioner. He doesn’t want to be any of those things. He wants to be a symbol of hope no matter how others see it.
people don't understand why batman doesn't kill but he doesn't need people to understand, as long as he knows why it's wrong, it doesn't matter what others think
Batman not killing is the same core aspect to Batman as Superman being always inspiring. Seeing this man get up day in and day out, ready to fight whatever crime is out there but never crossing HIS line that he sees separates him from his enemies. It's powerful.
I was completely expecting your usual "intro music" to start up after a minute or two, but am equally satisfied with you just showing off your awesome editing skills to make a point! :)
Can’t remember when he said it in justice league animated universe but went on a monologue about how the justice league is not judge jury and executioner, still gives me chills.
I dedicate this comment to all the liars that say that Batman killed in The Dark Knight Returns : Alright, It seems that nobody here read The Dark Knight Returns. So i will say it myself. NO Batman didn't kill the mutant or anyone else in the Comic. Yes, he didn't shoot her hand, but there is a panel literally right after he shoots her, that shows that she has NO wound on her Head. Instead she faints. And a few pages later, Commissioner Yindel says "My first act as police commissioner will be to issue an arrest warrant for the Batman on charges of assault, breaking and entering, creating a public hazard " She NEVER says murderer. And even If this is not enough for you, a few pages later, Batman goes to the junk yard to fight the mutants, during the narration Batman says " Rubber Bullets ", " Honest ". Later on Batman is indeed tempted to kill the mutant leader but then again he says " thought that means crossing a line a drew for myself thirty years ago " So no He didn't kill anyone in the comic until that moment, because since he said that if he killed the Mutant Leader, he would have been breaking his rule for the first time, you just need to think a little, to realise that he didn't kill the lady mutant in that moment that took place BEFORE the Junkyard battle. Even If you interpreted the scene that he shoots the mutant the way YOU want, this sentence above shoves Zack Snyder' and his fanboys's theories away. Ohh but he kills the Joker, because after he snapped his neck Joker's text collor becomes the same as Batman's. Why do people take this inconsistent theory as the absolute truth ? " Joker text bubble becomes the same color as Batman's ". Just to start, Batman's text bubble was never consistently gray throughtout the whole comic. It was white at the beginning for example. So this inconsistent theory doesn't even have a consistent reasoning. Because after Batman twists Joker's neck he says : " voices calling me murderer ", " I WISH I WERE " And after this, Joker says : " I'm very disappointed with you my sweet, the moment was perfect, and you didn't have the nerve ". So NO, he didn't kill the Joker. Even after this, when he finds his clan he picks up a shotgun and says " This is the weapon of the enemy, we do not need it, we will not use it ". Please share and like this comment everywhere you can. I am tired of Snyder Fanboys spreading lies about The Dark Knight Returns. It really bothers me how people believe everything they hear on the internet. Watching a video is not the same as actually reading the Comic, which makes very clear throughout the whole story that, although Batman is very tempted to kill, he never does it. People should take a Snyder's Batman's advice : " Don't Believe Everything You Hear, Son ".
"not with these! these are loud and clumsy!" *shows snyder's batman raining hell on thugs in a car perfection even arkham knight would fire only riot suppresor and small immobilising rockets but arkham obviously uses game logic and 40mm cannon shell exploding right next to a passed out criminal won't fill him with shrapnel and still bat-tank wasn't for killing
The actual boring reason as to why Batman doesn't kill is if he did, his iconic villains would end way too quickly, and that's just unprofitable. Punisher kills, and I don't really know Punisher villains.
@@Adam_X78 I do understand - there are *versions* of Batman that *do* kill. Just because everyone's (mine as well) favorite versions are those with the "no kill" rule doesn't mean they all have them. Red Son, Keaton, Affleck, Batman Who Laughs & the other Dark Multiverse variants, the non-Bruce variants like Thomas Wayne and Owlman, Golden Age Batman, Earth-X/Nazi Batman, and others.
So many people don’t understand why Batman doesn’t kill, and want him to kill. Those people don’t understand Batman as a character. I blame the fanboys of characters like the Punisher and the Watchmen (you know, the people who missed the point by idolizing them) for the myth that Batman should kill.
Not only is it compassionate, it's logical. All those 14 year olds who want a more grimdark "realistic" Batman who kills have clearly never heard of a power vacuum.
Yep. As a vigilante it's not his place to make decisions that should solely be in the hands of Gotham's courts. And interfering much in that process in his life as Bruce would just be both a massive conflict of interest and an example of how much influence one lobbying rich dude could have.
An argument I keep seeing brought up were people bringing up the really early issues of detective comics where bought did carry a gun but my problem with those examples is that was a batman that was pretty early in his existence not like how he is nowadays.
Bruce Wayne is a good man. The people that insist that Batman is who he really is, and that Bruce Wayne is a tool, don't truly understand the character. Batman is an extension of Bruce Wayne. It's what allows him to compartmentalize the things about himself that would make the hard choices impossible. He does not kill, he does not compromise, and most importantly... he shows people compassion, even if they don't deserve it.
I'm surprised more people don't talk about a scene in Arkham Knight. The Joker hallucinations keep getting more and more intense, until Batman is fighting dozens of Jokers in an alley towards the end of the game. I was throwing out combos, dodging, using gadgets, when all of a sudden a quick-time event pops up and Batman grabs the Joker. I instinctively started mashing X on my controller, but then I read what the prompt actually said a split second too late. Kill the Joker. And Batman snaps the Jokers neck. The other Jokers vanish, and his body falls limp on its face. And for a few seconds, you're just left with Batman, realizing what you just did. You lost control.
I actually waited a little longer through one playthrough just to see if the game changes if you don't snap Joker's neck but the game literally forces you to.
Man, I know it was heavily influenced by the joker blood in him, but can we talk about how Scarecrow catapulted himself very VERY high as one of the villains that managed to utterly break Batman? Like, his manipulations and toxins where so powerful that he made Batman mentally prepared to kill, that’s something that put that iteration of Scarecrow leagues above other villains even many iterations of the clown prince himself, Crane truly won the war against Batman that night, even if physically defeated, he accomplished his ultimate goal
