Battle of the Ports - Raystorm / Layer Section II (レイストーム) Show  

Polygon warping was horrible. I'd rather have straight textures and no transparency any day.

Agreed, yet it's too bad there were so many half-assed Saturn port jobs in general. Considering the need to rework a lot of the modeling from triangles to quads, porting from PSX to Saturn has a lot more issues than a simple power discrepancy. I don't think this one was that bad, just not that good either.

just play Saturn games with a composite cable, games have been optimized for that and no more transparency issues.

It is kind of sad :( but thankfully in this part of the world arcades were and still are popular places to hang out with friends and game.

Retro Core They're dead here. But some places like 1984 here in Springfield, MO. Keep the memory alive. It's an arcade adorned with all things 1980s. Everything but the pinball machines are set to freeplay and $7.50 gets you two floors of arcade gaming goodness of fun that lasts until closing time. One of my favorite atmospheric bits are the TVs, which play nothing but old movies and music videos. If you just wanna sit and rest, they have old computer magazines to thumb through. The kind that have complete games in basic code. Truly, it is heaven on Earth.

+Andrew Vrba Sounds awesome wish there were more of those around

Now that sounds like my kind of place! I've been looking for something similar here in Japa. Even an 80's bar would do me.

Andrew Vrba gunna have to visit there if I ever end up in your neck of the woods

If you haven't been keeping up with recent happenings with the RAY series, there are some good news: The Ray'z Arcade Chronology, a collection of the original arcade versions of the entire RAY trilogy on PlayStation 4 and Switch that was handled by retro video game maestros at M2, is also coming to PC in Fall 2023. This collection also features swappable music soundtracks, HD versions of the latter two games, online leaderboards, and they give players the option of disabling the smart bomb attack combo of Shot + Laser buttons to prevent players from pulling one off in the middle of intense action for RayStorm and RayCrisis. The collection has already been hailed as a solid collection by shoot 'em up fans and hopefully that same momentum carries through with the PC port.

@@ViperAcidZX Oh, that is good news. It's been a long wait!

Yeah, I know about how Working Designs mess about wit their releases. I'm not a fan of any of their work to be honest. In the RPGs they add horride voice acting, too much American street culture in an attempt to be cool and alter the way the game plays. They also changed the PSX version of Thunder Force V from what I remember.

⁠@@RetroCoreidk what’s changed for Thunder Force V PS1 despite I did only played the Saturn version and NA TFV by working designs. aside from how the game looks I did notice like one change is players get I frames for bosses when transitioning to their next phase or starting to spawn, which means the player is only vulnerable once you can start attacking the boss. other than that idk the difference between the region release. I mean I did No Miss clear the working designs version on master

It's good to see how programmers pushed hardware back then. I'm impressed by the Saturn's full 3D even if it does look low resolution.

Retro Core So true Mark. Thank you as always! Can't wait to see next weeks work. Anthony...

I run PSX on my PS3 (cfw) due to having it on HDMI and the option to smooth it a bit. But for a true BotP it´s a legit complain. Still, very happy to have this comparison and the nice review.

Indeed 1x resolution + CRT filter is reccomended for visual fidelity.

It is a very good game. I've been a fan of it for many years now but I kind of like the original better.

I agree. This game and the original have fantastic soundtracks! These days many games have generic crap but back then they were so much better.

On the plus side the saturn port of this game looks much better on the smaller screen :)

Try the original, you'll like it so much more as you can get a better idea of what's on the horizon.

@@RetroCore Except the original version on PS1, PC, and arcade versions doesn't have online leaderboards, replays, or new ships that RayStorm HD has, which might be something some players might find more enticing. And as you mentioned, the aspect-ratio is a simple TV fix.

And his brother Don

😒👎

No worries. I'll be covering the first game next week, RayStorm / Layer Section.

The first game is much better. It's in 2D and called Layer Section on the Saturn or Galactic Attack in the West.

I'm right with you there. The missing screen real estate changed how the game plays too much.

I also agree that screen real estate lacking can be a game killer

Yeah, the Tanz mix is a very nice addition to the 360 version. Just a shame they messed up the aspect ratio.

I'm not sure if the PC version uses any old style cards as the version I was using had no options at all apart from two resolution modes with the highest being 640x480.

it didn't look much like any of early 3D APIs of the day. I would guess it runs in software - but that doesn't stop them from using some hardware acceleration for 2D drawing.

I only have the Xplosiv budget release but it's DirectX 7 only. No glide version or anything. It actually runs without glitches for me on Windows 10 but ymmv with software this old of course.

I'm still burned over the soulless version of puzzle bobble 2 found in legends 2, it's like why even bother having a compilation if you're going to censor a game people already know about

Probably because of the emulation. The Arcade game was running in its native resolution while the PSX was running in 720p due to the emulator I was using.

Yea that definitely will happen, i did deffinitly look 'enhanced' btw gpubladesoft plugin can fix the graphics warping in Ps1 games and does multiple resolutions for multi res games, unfortunately it takes a beefy cpu especially with resolution enhancements

stevacus no worries on the CPU power as my emulation PC can run modern PC games to a level similar to an Xbox one or PS4. I don't think I'd use that plug in for Battle of the Ports though as it's kind of cheating :p

yea that is definitely for sure. i could name a few ways that would be great for retrocore that wouldn't 'enhance' the visuals

Nice!

Yeah, sadly the only real option it to go with the PlayStation version. PC would be better but it has issues on modern hardware.

That is correct. The Saturn handled textures with less warping.

It just worked. Older PC games can be very finicky. I doubt my Japanese Windows had anything to do with it but it may be a factor.

The Arcade has no tate mode. This isn't a tate shooter.

I know... I just remember how nice (and bad for your neck) was play gunbird and some ps1 shumps on Tate mode and not that squizzed 360 version .... I like capture 1943 and resize the screen to 1920* 1080

My next Battle of the Ports will be a tate shooter.

Oh, I agree. Rayforce is a much better game :) Or as I know it, Layer Section.

​@@RetroCore Or Galactic Attack.

Setting the Xbox 360 to 4:3 is one option or changing the TV settings is another but the point is you shouldn't have to do this at all.

hahaha. my wife thinks I'm an utter geek for making my channel.

To be honest, I like my retro technical interests to be niche. Retro has become so 'in' nowadays with people jumping on the bandwagon. It's channels like yours that are true retro enthusiast. Long may it go on!

pomegran thanks man. Yeah, there are so many that just haven't got a clue. I was watching Metal Jesus before with Regie doing their GBA hidden gems 3 video and they both said Tactics Oger was by Atlus!? Everyone knows it's a port of the Super Famicom game that Enix published although I'm sure it was developed by Quest.

Maybe 😊

It can be done as some games do it. It just takes a lot of CPU time and needs programmers who know how to pull this off. There are a few Saturn games out there that do feature transparent polygons. Not many, but there are some. One that springs to mind is the early title, Welcome House. That has a transparent fish tank. Maight Hits, a light gun game does it in places too.

It also shows in that video that it can be done, but also there are many ways to achieve this due to the Saturn's unique architecture. eg switching between transparent effect with background eating, then in the next frame displaying no transparent effect. The Sega Saturn doesn't have a flawed design, when used correctly it outshone the Playstation in many many areas.

Mike Contra Never said it can't be done. I said it's a royal pain, which it is. There's a reason why almost all developers never bothered with the hassle of coding a ton of workarounds to get transparencies to work. It is a flawed design. the Saturn was originally supposed to be a 2D sprite based system only, then Sega realized late into development they needed to implement some sort of 3D accelerator but it was already too late to re-design the console from scratch so they instead decided patch a 3d accelerator as a 2nd graphics processor and ended up with the dual VDP design. Basically "using it correctly" involves far too much effort and development expenses.

I never stated you said it can’t be done, if u disagree please provide a reference. How do you u know it’s a pain? Are u a software developer? I bet u never even wrote a line of code in your life. Which is why you rely on others opinions. Patch a 3D accelerator as a 2nd graphics processor? Wtf? You clearly have no knowledge of computing science what so ever. If you did u would know “patching” a DSP like the Saturn has in audio would actually be far more beneficial for 3D. Yup using the Saturn’s DSP would factually bring better 3D performance. Being that DSP’s are far better at floating point math than a 2nd SH2. If you’re a gifted software dev the Saturn is a gift indeed! If the Saturn is inferior to PS1 then compare Tekken 2 or 3 to virtua fighter 2. VF is absolutely superior. Show me any ps1 game better looking to Saturn Shenmue infact!

You are taking the word patch completely out of context. Patching is a term commonly used when changes are made late into hardware development by adding/removing components because the process itself involves literally physically patching boards during prototype stages. It is a pain to properly program transparencies into Saturn games and the video reference I ported and most of the Saturn's library are more than enough proof. As impressive as a game like burning rangers is, it is a complete glitchfest thanks to what the developers had to do to get all the transparencies effects they wanted. Also, other than running at hi-res VF2 has nothing else going for it. They had to sacrifice light sourcing in order to hide the low polygon count and save processing power. Same goes for the Shenmue beta. Actually that goes for almost all the best 3D games on the Saturn, the majority have no light sourcing which makes everything look plain. BTW, I don't get why you are bringing the PS1 into this. The whole point of the original post was to talk about the Saturn's transparency capabilities, if you want to start some sort of stupid childish fanboy console war please look elsewhere.

I wonder if working design had any idea what SPAZ means in the UK?

Retro Core Oh yes. And that "logo" for it sure doesn't soften the meaning either.

Yes.

Aye.

I couldn't help you with Radiant Silvergun on the 360 as I really don't like the game that much (I do own the Saturn version) so I never bothered to buy it again. Knowing Treasure it's probably been done right, unlike this.

I beleive that's emulation of the Arcade ROM.

@@RetroCore yeah,just like rayforce and raycrisis with touch enhanced mode

Thanks man!

What's nice in the SSF emulator though is that you can enable "mesh translucent" which makes most meshed stuff true transparency and looks very nice. This is done without any filters to the screen itself. I threw together some comparison shots for this game with it enabled and disabled for anyone interested :) postimg.org/image/zevt16nsj/

That is really nice but kind of cheating for a Battle of the Ports video. Still, a very cool trick if you are in to using emulation.

Retro Core Yeah, I would agree it would be cheating and shouldn't be used in the comparison videos :)

Retro Core I do think some, especially older TV's did blend most meshes if one used RF or Composite video connection. Just like it made faked extra colors with the same meshing\every other pixel trick in older games.

***** yeah, that's true but the over all image was crap. I've always been an RGB user since the days of the Master System but I did experiment using composite on the Saturn for a while. The colours looked brighter and the mesh looked transparent as you said but what I hated the was the reds would have a dot crawl effect and that text never looked sharp so I went back to RGB.

No idea. I didn't even know this or G-Darius was on the PS2. If they are I bet they just run the original PlayStation code with PS2 enhancements.

From what I remember reading (on Shmups, I think), it's directly based off the G-Net arcade release... Raystorm and G Darius are in the Taito Memories collections and (supposedly) are the only games that are ported, not emulated, on those discs.

It's okay but when you're accustom to the original with a wider field of view, the 360 version feels cramped.

Makes no difference. the game still looks wrong.

Yep, so no point in showing both. Plus I don't own a PS3 :p

You are absolutely right. I guess Taito forgot about that when making the second game. Although I think this could be a different planet.

A bit late, but RayStorm doesn't follow the story in RayForce - just the gameplay mechanics. An entirely different continuity. RayCrisis is a direct prequel to RayForce, where you hack into ConHuman to try and shut it down (obviously, it doesn't work!). RayStorm maintains the series predilection for downer endings/planetary annihilation, though!

Phew...I was wondering until today! Thanks dude. But well...At least you don't die in the explosion of the planet...I guess(I skiped the ending )

Because I'm hard core or at least that's what Japanese say when I tell them I own a Xbox One and 360. Telling them I own a PC Engine isn't sure a big deal :p it's the total opposite to the west. I do have a PS2 though.

Retro Core well considering the 360 and one both have some titles that would have been on PS3/4 right at the outset (shooting love, raiden iv and v, etc) that's not a bad thing to have, sure they get some flak in the states for whatever reason why but there are a handful of games on the systems that are worth their weight in gold

Yep, not a great port.

Much more Zuntata goodness coming up in this week's Battle of the Ports.

gorgious

For a second I thought that said "fisted" (^o^)

+Retro Core not tonite !

Haha, very good.