In fairness, Lindy Beige managed to do an entire video on how to hold a knife in a fight (normally vs icepick-grip) and turned it into a poem. I swear historians have some god-like power for making any rational discussion fun.
"Because you can slide the both the hands up and down your shaft as much as you like with a spear, it means that you can extend your butt really far out"
Ahahahahahahaahahahahah this is a master piece I laughed my head off, what you say is super funny but it also makes perfect sense 100%, real teaching and funny jokes simulaneously. "there is nothing wrong with using your butt offensively, if you want to". "it's up to you what you use your butt for, but!" And you keep being serious the whole time xD xD xD I can't stop laughing xD xD
Double penetration is really risky though because you might end up with a face full of their weapon, not to mention having problems withdrawing in time.
Speaking about penetration, it seems to me that period accounts mentions a lot more of bayonets getting stuck in enemy bodies after a thrust than it was for swords. Why would that be the case? Could it be that the larger weight of a bayoneted rifle makes it more likely that the blade gets pushed in to bone and gets stuck?
scholagladiatoria In All Quiet on the Western Front the author writes that this is why many soldiers preferred sharpened shovels and other blunt weapons
sonny19931 "a magistrate judge with authority in any district where activities related to a crime may have occurred has authority to issue a warrant to use remote access to search electronic storage media and to seize or copy electronically stored information located within or outside that district" ...?
Rule 41 is "Needs more Desu. No exceptions." I guess you meant either rule 34 (There is porn of it, no exceptions), rule 51 (No matter what it is, it is somebody's fetish. No exceptions) or rule 63 (For every male character there is a female version. No exceptions). My bet is on 34, because the other ones are not that well known.
"Theres nothing wrong with using your butt offensively" "Its up to you how you want to use your butt" "4 inches of penetration is enough to finish most people" Someone should count the amount of time he says butt and but
After having eaten three seriously spicy curries this week, trying to drive out this chest infection, I reckon I could use my butt pretty offensively right now...
Im not sure if if you're trying really hard to make your titles sound like 80's porn videos on VHS tapes, or it just comes naturally to you... Either way im impressed
I am a simple Greek - I see a butt video, I click "like". Jokes aside - the carbine at the end of the video is a thing of beauty - is it functional? If yes, is there a chance you fire it in a future video?
It is fully operational, yes. I don't have it registered so cannot legally shoot it right now, but I may add it to my firearms certificate one day. I don't expect it to be very accurate though. It may work as a short range shotgun!
Hey Matt, I retired from the US Marines and we DO still use pugil stick drills in boot camp. AND I did in FACT use my OKC3S USMC Bayonet in combat in Afghanistan during the battle for Marjah. It was disgusting for me to feel what it did to an enemy combatant and I will never be able to forget it.........But it never failed to kill the ememy.
The use of the butt of the rifle in club fashion was widely described in American Civil War memoirs. I have also seen at least one equipment inspection document of a regiment in the field which reflected a surprising number of missing bayonets in the ranks. We know from the memoirs etc. (as well as archaeology) that the cumbersome musket bayonet was often lost or discarded by soldiers in the field during this conflict.
I'd love to hear Matt's opinion on the kroot rifle, becasue I've never seen any real-life weapon like that, and there must be a good reason for it. But it looks so cool and genious in WH40k, so I need to have it explained to me why it's probably dumb.
Breaking the muskets was fairly common. In one action during the Civil War, a predominantly Irish Union unit came to close quarters with a Louisiana unit. Neither one had bothered to fix bayonets for some reason. Many of the Louisiana troops resorted to backup knives, and in response the Irishmen clubbed their muskets and went in with them like oversize shillelaghs. Many of them needed replacement weapons after the fight as they often broke just where you pointed out.
Hey Matt, most US Army basic combat trainings (BCT) do not require or offer bayonet courses anymore. It was carried on for tradition, but finally died out a few years ago. No more close-up penetration for U.S. Soldiers now. What a shame!
"[...] it might be a situation where I could use my butt offensively. And there's nothing wrong with using your butt offensively, if you want to. You know it's up to you what you use your butt for. But I would say, generally speaking, what you don't want to do is just charge in with your butt. [...]" I just couldn't stop laughing.
An interesting study. I wonder how many different ''styles'' there are (for different weapons, countries and periods) There seems to be some basic general principals but I have seen some unusual techniques (See RU-vid Bayonet Training 1938 US Army Training Film No. 25) Short weapons like the SA80 maybe better than a long rifle for control and defense. A walking cane can be used in this way as well as sword techniques.
Excellent video, as always. Another danger in clubbing a musket (or hammer striking with a non-polymer handgun) comes from bending the trigger guard. It is often made of a softer metal and fairly thin. It is fairly easy to bend in a way that can interfere with trigger pull.
Sorry, I was too distracted by those euphemistic puns and may lost some points. Did you touch an aspect of combat morale of the troops when you was talking about modern carbines and bayonets? Besides of crowd control, patroling and so on, if some soldiers was trained for hand-to-hand and bayonet fighting, they are tend to be psychologically more stable in close quarter combat situations. At least as far as I know, it was one of main reasons why our - soviet - army forces did not abandoned bayonets in mid-XX century when they accept AK-series, especially AK-74.
"use my butt offensively" Right! Liechtenauer's lost treatise "Codex In Natibus Impetum" affectionately referred to by his students as Das Grosste Arschfechtbuch. Such a shame it hasn't survived the centuries except for some illustrations found in the Geselschaft Liechtenauers outhouses of a very doubtful provenance according to some experts.
I tried the bayonet on my SKS out on a 2L pop bottle of water. I stood there and thrust forward as hard as I could and I sunk half the barrel into the bottle. And that bayonet isn't even sharp.
Yeah, thrusting through stuff with narrow objects is shockingly easy. Preventing over-penetration is more difficult, especially against a fighting opponent.
Whilst it is true that a Rifle-butt-stroke is effective from a bayonet affixed rifle, troops often found themselves without time to fix bayonets. Training with things like pugil sticks teaches how to drive the rifles muzzle into the opponent as well as the rifle-butt. I can tell you from personal experience that even an M-4 carbine muzzle into the midsection really knocks the wind out of you. Had it been an 8 pound rifle like an Enfield or M1 Garand, it probably would have broken a rib.
Gunstock-shaped war clubs were popular weapons among the various indigenous tribes in North America in the 18th and 19th centuries. There is some debate as to their exact origin, but it makes for an interesting story if the shape was directly derived from clubbed firearms.
Talking about butts and penetration, I think you should also debate this matter with Rocco Siffredi, who as we know is quite knowledgeable on the topic.
Pugil sticks are still in use in some branches of the US Military. A friend in the US Coast Guard trained with pugil sticks. I agree that they are not the most effective training method. As for modern bayonet training, I received some from the Air Force, and in that circumstance we used hard plastic M16 simulators. We were taught the various bayonet fencing basics, though we didn't have bayonets on the simulators. Most of the basics of bayonet fencing work alright even without a bayonet, except for the slash. Jabbing someone with the muzzle of an M16 or even an M4 really hurts, and can even break some bones if done with enough force. The terminology I was taught, which seems to be the same as what the rest of the US Military uses are jab, slash, smash, buttstroke, high block, low block, and I think a side block. The buttstroke is the swinging strike with the butt. The smash was the straight strike with the butt. Now with what you mentioned about some people saying they never fixed bayonets, and others used them in crowd control, a lot depends on the unit. A friend of mine was in a Marine unit, and the unit was required to bring bayonets on deployment, but they were kept in a bag that was wired shut for the entire deployment. Then they had their knives confiscated after a pair of idiots did something stupid with their knives. This was not common to all units. It all just depended on the officers and commander of each unit. I personally think both knives and bayonets should be taught, trained, and issued, but not everyone agrees. A personal thing I have wondered about is how a lot of bayonet and rifle combatives would work with a bullpup, given how differently shaped and balanced they are from a traditional rifle. I've still not figured it out, and I've not been able to find any videos of rifle combatives with a bullpup.
Aussies effectively used bayonets in combat in Vietnam. I was trained to use the SLR and bayonet, and every inch of it was used as a weapon. Granted, it's a shorter unit than a rifled musket and can be reversed very quickly. It also weighs 5kg and the butt is steel-shod. Getting hit by that will either drop, or stop an opponent long enough to bring the pointy end to bear. Also, jabbing someone with a rifle barrel (sans bayonet) is plenty enough to disable them.
Yeah, antique firearms tend to be much more expensive than swords unfortunately. Enfield rifles like this one start at about £800 generally. Adams revolvers start at about £700. Most are over £1000.
Hey Matt, great video as always. Speaking of bayonet combat, I have read quite an interesting account from your excellent recommendation Swordsmen of the British Empire by D. A. Kinsley. "To give an idea of the temper, sharpness, and weight of the swords of all these men (who had all drugged themselves with "bang," a species of opium, for the encounter), I have only to mention that the barrel of one of the men's muskets was completely cut in two by one stroke. The musket was many years preserved, and shown as a curiosity." Diary of Colonel Bayly, talking about the power of the tulwar Do you think this was true? Or did he embellish? Or just straight up made it up?
As a former US Army soldier, I agree somewhat with your point about pugil sticks. They do (unintentionally?) seem to favor swings over thrusts, because of how the pugil sticks are made. That said, the bayonets for the M16 rifle are basically knives. So they can be used for slashing as well as thrusting. We were taught to use the butt-stroke as the second movement in a 3-step process (thrust, butt-stroke, slash). Side note: During my military service, I never fixed my bayonet to my rifle outside of training. But I did use it frequently as a hand-held knife.
Training for close quarters combat with rifle and bayonet ought to be a standard part of daily training for all infantry troops. When I was a Civil War re-enactor in the 90s we did training with this kind of fighting. What I discovered as an infantryman was that it boosted my confidence greatly at the prospect of meeting the enemy in this manner, were I actually to face such a real scenario. I could feel the muscles in my upper body significantly strengthening. Building the necessary muscle memory for rapid application of technique was very embolding to me as a "soldier". Also attention to good footwork is important for good balance, speed and efficiency.
Going back a bit in time, some sources indicate musketeers in the era of the English Civil War preferred to swing with the butt in close combat rather than draw the sword. The poor quality of many swords issued to common soldiers in this period may have had something to do with that.
I read a passage from the Falklands war about hand to hand combat where a guy talked about the psychology of using the butt of the gun when he was fighting the Argentinians. The guy said that somehow, in the hand to hand fighting, the rifle just ends up turned around in your hand and you find yourself clubbing people with the butt of the rifle. I am guessing that at some point you just revert to gross motor skills.
That "AAAAAAHHHH! " thing you speak of is not what you think at all. Your information about modern bayonet training is *very* incomplete. And the Butt Stroke series of moves is very much offensive. In fact, every single offensive or defensive move used with the bayonet, to be executed correctly, has a forward step built into it. Bayonet "fencing" was taught and used up through the 1990 at least. The films you have seen were simply trainees getting used to charging at high speed and then correctly attacking and stabbing an enemy who is being overrun. While the US Army has largely abandoned bayonet (and hand-to-hand) training, it was still heavily taught when I served in the 1980s. The training included grappling, throws, knife fighting, hand-to-hand fighting, and the bayonet/butt stroke moves. (Butt stroke - what an unfortunate name for engendering serious discussion, heh, heh...) Anyway, the films you saw with the troopers charging and simply parrying and then either using a thrust or a smash to the chest is simply to learn to do this without falling down. At full speed this stuff is hard to do without injuring yourself. And this type of bayonet course is simply a small part of what was taught. We also used a series of moves and countermoves in long lines. "LINE A: BUTT STROKE TO THE GROIN, BUTT STROKE TO THE HEAD, THRUST TO THE CHEST, RIGHT PARRY. LINE B: LOW BLOCK, LEFT PARRY, MIDDLE BLOCK UP, SMASH TO FACE." We would be in lines about 10 meters apart, each move used the built-in forward step. After a couple of series of moves the Drill Sergeant would shout CROSSOVER and we charged past one another to the former starting locations, turn, assume the Attack Position, and await the next instructions. In truth, we would get so motivated by this that some partners would take huge advancing steps so that they could make physical contact. I once received a rifle butt stroke to the head that dented my steel pot and broke the strap. My buddy took a smash that nearly broke his nose. Then the Drill Sergeants would come scream at us and drop us for pushups and all that mess. The butt stroke moves were actually more important than the actual stabbing or slashing moves with the bayonet. This was due to the shape and length of the weapon and the bayonet (which was a fighting knife, too) more than anything else. We trained with actual, edged bayonets, normally sheathed, but often uncovered. We had injuries. This is normal in military training. People get injured or killed as a matter of course. I can say that my bayonets, as issued, were generally quite sharp. Perhaps not sharp enough to shave hair with, but these were training weapons of Vietnam vintage, so about two decades old, and they were still excellent steel, just as the M-16 rifles were still excellent. And regarding the bayonet being prone to becoming embedded in the enemy's ribs, this was actually a bigger problem with modern bayonets due to them being a fighting knife that is a good bit "taller" than the triangular spikes used in the past. The Thrust move has two steps built in after the thrust itself. The next count is a sharp 90º twist counterclockwise to break the ribs, the next is a hard retraction, sometimes involving using the foot in the enemy's chest. The twist would prevent the blade from snapping if it became stuck in the rib bones. If nothing else, being a 90º twist ensured that the blade was flat (horizontal) and thereby parallel to the ribs and much easier to remove at speed without using a boot to kick the body off the blade. The goal always being to not get your rifle stuck or your blade snapped off so that you are suddenly disarmed. And yes, we were taught that the command "FIX BAYONETS" would generally be given in the event of an encirclement and the depletion of ammunition to below critical levels. It was a desperation move at that point. And it still works. The last bayonet charge by the US military was in Iraq by some US Marines to break out of an ambush situation. It still works and has been used as a political football in military circles as to the continued expense of bayonet training since our military has largely abandoned it save for token training. www.businessinsider.com/the-most-famous-bayonet-charge-of-modern-conflict-2012-10 Thank you for your excellent video. I just wanted to chime in from the perspective of a fairly well trained bayonet operator from the 1980s US Army. I wanted to point out to you that the butt stroke moves were as heavily weighted as actual bayonet moves and were not simply defensive in nature. We were trained to stove in skulls with the stock's butt plate. The knife on the end was simply another way to use the rifle. The stock was just as important as the blade, both offensively and defensively. I know this is not really relevant to 19th century weapons and their bayonets due to the extreme difference in length (and probably durability). I look forward to watching more of your videos. I learn something every time I click on one of them. Great work! Cheers!
'On Killing' By Dave Grossman claims that it's psychologically very difficult to stab someone with a bayonet. This means that a) Bayonet charges were effective because the enemy usually scattered--people who are apparently prepared to stab you with a bayonet are terrifying. I would imagine that fixing bayonets in crowd control works in a similar way. b) When people did fight at close range, usually they instinctively forgot the bayonet and used their gun as a club.
10:19 That was the exact reason the Swedish UN-force in Congo during the 1950's had the kpist m/45C , so bayonets could be fixed for guard duty as the Swedish and Irish were in charge of the main refugee camp at Elisabethville.
'Swinging'?? Ok I get the connection to butts and thrusts but come on buddy 'Swinging' is so dated, The 'swinging 1960's' was an excellent time but it is still half a century ago. It reminds me of Peter Sellers in the 'Return of the Pink Panther' (the best of the bunch) in which Clouseau is playing the character of Guy Gabois; a 'swinger' who regales his 'chickling' with such up to date come ones like 'here's looking at you, Kid' from old 1940's movies. 'Swingers? Get more up to date man!!
Psychologically, it's far harder to stab someone than club them, so in spite of being every bit as inadvisable as you say, there's actually some evidence that muskets/rifles were frequently clubbed even if the bayonet was fixed. David Grossman talks about that in _On Killing_ and quotes a veteran of bayonet charges saying something like, "The damn things just turn themselves around."
4:25 "There's nothing wrong with using your butt offensively if you want to." "It's up to you what you use your butts for." "Generally speaking, what you don't want to do is charge in with your butt." Matt Easton 2017 :P
With reference to crowd control: A fixed bayonet is VERY intimidating to a crowd. The psychological factor is huge. Most people, when asked, would prefer to be shot rather than stabbed. A line of troops marching forward with bayonets will often cause a crowd to break and run, without anyone actually getting stabbed. But if the troops have to present and fire, people are always going to get hurt - including non-combatents (check out Kent State University, 1968).
I just broke out laughing in the middle of the video lol. I seen modern US training videos where they have this kind of combo of stabbing then quickly follow up with a swing of the butt and then a jab with the butt. After that they return back to starting positionby doing a cut with the knife-bayonet. IDK how effective that would be but definitely seems pretty cool. Fairly simple motion though in the video the footwork is important since you don't want to slip and fall
A note on rifle vs musket: at the beginning of the 20th century, a lot of repeaters in full military length were called muskets. Some good examples would be full length Winchester 1895 musket in Russian service, or the Savage 99 musket in service with the Montreal Home Guard.
Matt, surely using the butt would be much harder on bullpup rifles like the Famas and SA80, do you know of any differences between the way hand to hand fighting with the rifle between bullpup using Nations like Britain, France and Austria and standard configuration rifle using nations like the U.S. and Germany?
"There's nothing wrong with using your butts offensively...if you want to...it's up to you what you use your butt for...just don't charge in with your butt" lmao glad I knew what I was watching, butt still made me giggle. Honestly thank you Matt, I was having a difficult day.
Excellent video. Bayonet training is no longer taught in the US Army because soldiers are carrying short sub-machine guns and lots of ammunition. Even during WW2, I can't imagine troops using short sub-machine guns using bayonets even tho' some may have been available(UK Sten gun spike bayonets). An entrenching tool or 2x4 plank would be more useful than a plastic bullpup if your position is over-run and you are out of ammo.
Well, it's all true, but there is one problem however. You can use your musked as club only... if your unit is not one unit anymore... In most diaries I recall, somone who was using musket as a club was untrained, possibly dangerous "freak". Imagine three ranks deep formation (yes, letr it was abandoned, but even with two ranks deep formation...) and someone wielding his musket as you did - you did it very professionally, nicely and clean... But... It could work - and worked in chaos after first clash. Take a look at your clip and imagine you are in the middle of melee. If you try to hit enemy like this (hitting with the butt to the groin of a enemy) - you just cut face of your friend behind you. If you do it opposite way (hit from above) - it's even worse, someone standing behind you have no time to react! You just cut his hands and most probably - face too. Yes, using muskets as a clubs were in use by all armies at the time, but it was moslty seen as "fighting of a peasant". It was dangerous for everyone and it was acceptable only during chaotic melee fights. Also, holding your musket upside down or under your head was considered as "I surrender"! Polish militiamen in 1794 have no idea what does it mean, also, they had no idea what "pardon!" meant. Russians were horrified, but polish officers were horrified as well: "They were using muskets as clubs and they were not giving "pardon" to anyone - simply, they had no idea what does it mean". Yes, butt of the musket was in use in most regulations of the period, but it couldn't be done in close formation. Simply - it was impossible. For example, to stop cavalryman attacking, two men were allowed to leave the ranks - then one of them would attack the poor horse and the other one attacked horseman falling of the horse - or at least engage him. If you were in close ranks - you simply couldn't use your musket as a club. Even at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, when two men ranks were in common use - swinging your musket would make more harm than good. All the best! Very nice video, as always! Thank you!
