Behringer Model15 vs Moog Grandmother 

Quality? Out of tune oscillators and broken reverbs galore, look how many people alone in this comment section have come forward with issues. Thats not indicative of quality, even the unit in this video has bugs

@@neonblack211 Well, let's hope that the Taiwanese workers are better motivated than the woke guys from Asheville.

@@user-wg6mt3se1n you can bet your ass they will be

Agree! The thing about my Grandmother (dark version) is that it makes me PLAY it. It's quite a thing.

Agreed. Moog's stuff is made to be brought out and played. I don't know if much Behringer gear I'd trust in the road. Definitely not their Bugera Line. Probably not any of their synths. The mixers Midas designed and made probably. That's about it.

Long live the Grandmother!

@@ravkepar long live the numark now with moogfilter :P

Lol now you mention it!

Im a huge New Order fan and you know what? You're fookin right!

😮😂😂

You can really detect the moog sound through RU-vid compression?

@@kidkique it's not like the audio is run at 2kbps, the tonal differences can be heard even despite the fact that they are quite minor and probably not worth even caring about.

My dad’s van had the same go faster stripes

@@StarskyCarr Did they make it go faster?

It's the coolest name on YT.

@@h-dawg969oh yes!! 🏎️🏁

Very basic, no extra control but there is velocity… forgot that bit and I’d even made notes!

Get yourself a Kenton MIDI-CV box. Better yet, get several of them and put one on each of your analog synthesizers... that way everything in your studio has a consistent MIDI implementation.

They’re the same as far as I can tell. I’ve not noticed any anomalies but haven’t spent hours playing them either.

@@StarskyCarr Thank you. :-) The reason I ask is that the Crave sequencer was disappointing in always changing patterns immediately compared to the Mother 32's change at the end of the pattern option. Clock divisions on the Crave when syncing the Crave were updated to make the machine less versatile in performance; early firmware let the tempo knob control divisions during synced playback.

They should've called it the MF!

grandmother uses 900 series moules from the old model 15,30,55, w/e series, the really good original ones

Behringmother

@@lundsweden Milf

The Nanna

It wasn’t mine - someone asked me to demo theirs.

Nice info. You’re right - it’s obvious now you’ve mentioned it 👍

@@StarskyCarr also it looks like Osc 2 set to 8' on the Moog and 16' on the Behringer?

@@dangerous77 yeah I noticed that during the edit, so double checked on the synth at the same settings and there was no difference .. hence I added the text about the octaves.

@@StarskyCarr Sorry missed that

@@dangerous77no worries whatsoever. I was annoyed for not noticing as I recorded it.

The Model 15 wouldn't exist if Moog hadn't created the Grandmother. Think about that before rewarding them for making another cheap knockoff instead of supporting the folks who create new things. It's more than just the badge, it's the engineering behind it. Your comparison to the Korg is an apples to oranges, because the Korg is not patchable with CV.

They copied the grandmother as closely as possible and cut costs where they could (keys, spring reverb, labor, materials, r&D, marketing, product launch)

@@DannoBoston I feel Moog charges more than they should for all of their gear. We really are paying more when it comes to Moog products just because of the name.

No I had a play with it - forgot to video that bit though!

it does sound a bit sooty there

I bet in a blind taste test you wouldn't be able to tell.

@@kidkique yes I agree because he’s comparing the same knob positions

where'd you get a proton?

@@VagPoop_should be out later this year. Was announced two years ago or so.

You beat me to the punch, I share the same view. In fact, allowing more of the masses to get into analog on a budget certainly cannot be a bad thing.

@@odmusicman I got a cheap acoustic guitar for Christmas when I was 13, which would have been 1980. My sister got a Casio VL-Tone which ended up being used more by me. Both these turned me onto a life of music, and I can imagine a kid today getting a synth like the Model15 to begin their own journey.

The original value proposition of the Grandmother is that it is a scaled down System 15 clone. Or as Moog puts it, “Grandmother’s circuits, spring reverb, and spirit are inspired by the classic Moog Modular Synthesizers.”

So they cloned an existing product? Does that not sit wrong?

@@wsmith67 But why did they have to make it so _big?_

@@scottfrost317 have you been living in a cave? Behringer clones loads of existing products. They’re shameless

@@scottfrost317 ​ @scottfrost317 No. The patents on the circuits are long expired. Before you get upset, turn in your cell phone and only purchase IPhones since all other phones are clones of it. Making clones of Moog products has been going since the 80's.The thing I don't understand.. is people get upset yet most likely don't even own a Moog or could afford one. They are not even affected by it. Can you see the blinding hypocrisy of that! Behringer makes products for the masses, for the people who don't have much money, are struggling and live real lives trying to get by and afford a piece of the dream. If you really care about Moog then actually buy the Grandmother and support them but don't rain on the happiness of people who buy the 15.

I've had bleed issues with Behringer synths.

Oh dear now I know why the filter on mine is bad

Had exactly the same problem with my Grandmother crackly pot, they sent me a replacement which I still need to get a friend to replace maybe one day I’ll get it done !.. this was a wake up call about Moog quality isn’t exactly what you’d always hope for.. additionally the pitch bend failed and wobbled about freely which I managed to fix myself…again another known issue I would guess , as they changed the way it was manufactured/designed on later models.. so for all those that slate Behringer it’s food for thought..

That's why I sent my last one back, and my replacement developed the same problem. This is Grandmother #5 or #6 for me. If it wasn't such a beautiful synthesizer I would have just returned it after the first defective one. Hard to feel bad for Moog when they did this to themselves. Charging so much for a synth with so many defects and lack of care for build quality is just not smart. Crazy to think I've had several times more QC issues with my Moogs than I ever had with my budget synthesizers.

This is common with grandmothers, but fixable and if caught young enough in ownership would be covered under warranty.

I've had multiple crackly pots, switches failing, creaky keys, screw hole welds for spring tank broken off, wobbly chassis, defective spring reverb only going like 30% wet even though internal cables connected, and more. All over the course of multiple returns/exchanges/repairs. At first I thought it was just me being unlucky, but after years of exchanges/repairs I just wonder why Moog stopped caring about their QC and killed their own company. Customer support from them is generally good, which is a plus, but why not just make them with a bit of pride in craftsmanship the first time?

They're completely different synths there's nothing to A/B

2nd this!

you can't plagiarize people's works, doesn't work like that.

I get it!

Imagine thinking the moog has a monopoly on subtractive synthesis... omg they made a mono osc>filter>vca aynth with reverb! Someone copyright the incredible design

@@neonblack211 It’s a comparison with the Grandmother for a reason otherwise there would be a Monopoly in the video!

😂

But but... I gave moog 1000$ for the build quality!

@@dirtyharry1881 3 moog & 3 Behringer's in the studio here including a grandmother maybe something has changed since the last year or two now that its no longer employee owned i don't know but all my Moogs have top notch build quality tighter tolerances & just more precise better sounding & feeling instruments even if its just a 5-10% difference. just don't delude your self your not comparing apples to apples. but if you cant be bothered to save & have the patience to to get to $899 for a synth you claim to want then this will clone should get you close if that's your goal

I was in a group and left because almost the entire thing was people just asking Behringer to clone this or that specific thing rather than any real discussion of synths, music, or even existing Behringer products. It's was crazy.

@BrentODell yep. Probably the same group, because that happened all the time.

@@MikeJayMusic It's a hive mindset, you wont be able to ask anything that isn't positive so will be shown the door.

Yes

Model 15 has an additional sub osc more patchpoints plus better manufacturing quality. Although no one knows what it looks like with Inmusic's Asian manufacturing.

@@user-wg6mt3se1nI think quality will increase with inmusic - they’ve got stronger supply chains, better purchasing power and FYI they’re continuing the manufacturing on the Asheville site it all looks very positive

@@user-wg6mt3se1n I'm sure you mean the Moog Grandmother has better manufacturing quality than Behringer Model 15?

@@user-wg6mt3se1n You haven't even touched a Model 15 so how do you know what the manufacturing quality is like?

ive seen Grandmother repair videos and its all modern surface mount parts.

Yeah the problem with vintage synths (as I’ve demo’d myself) is that no 2 old ones have lived the same life - add to that hundreds of components degrading at different rates you’ll never reproduce it to sound like everyone’s unit. It’s why I concentrate on the feel and character with the vintage stuff.

@@StarskyCarr Vintage synths will have sounded different straight from the factory. This is even true for fairly simple machines, like the TB-303.

@@unduloid people have no idea how wide tolerances on electronics components were for consumers stuff up until the 90s. A modern clone is probably closer to any single vintage unit than they are between them.

@@EversonBernardes no this is not true, you cannot clone "age", and this is where a clone cannot simply replicate the age of components of the original it is trying to clone. It is simply not possible.

I disagree, the MS-1 sounds dead on.

I'm sick of the female gendering of all the Moogs. Its cringy.

The Grandbrother.

Grandson

BFAM - Brother from another mother

Spot on

Yeah.. I e had loads of them. Too many early electronic tracks playing filter sweeps! Very annoying though .

@@StarskyCarr That is unfair on multiple levels. First, it's an incorrect match, second, it is your own performance, third, it is a fair-use case! A source citation should be all that's required, even if you *did* play an existing piece. Not to mention, hasn't it been >50 years since those experimental recordings? Sorry for the rant, but, you know.

@@thirstyCactus you are 100 percent correct, it's one of the stupidest examples I've heard

No patch saving on either - it's an analogue monosynth and the controls aren't under digital control.. plus how would you actually save patches given all the patch points? It wouldn't be able to save what modulations you have going on through patch cables anyway

Look up the difference between a VCO synth and a DCO synth. A VCO synth is something akin to a Minimoog. A DCO synth is something akin to a Roland Juno. A VCO synth allows for a lot of options as well as even manual patch points (like the ARP2600). A DCO synth can store settings but with that loses a lot of flexibility and adds a lot of cost (in the early days of DCO synths especially). You can find digital emulations of VCO synths and manual patching if saving patches is a necessity.

@@Wagoo I misspoke, sorry, Im new to all this. I meant saving sounds(presents?) not patches.

@@alexsmart5452 "presets" and "patches" are generally the same thing - but patches can also refer to physical patching with patch cables. But like I said, it's not possible to do as you can connect wires between those different physical patch points on the right hand side of the Behringer or scattered all over the Moog.. and those cables carry signal to affect other parts of the circuit. This modular design also easily allows you to interpatch with other CV capable gear like eurorack modules But all that electrical data couldn't be recorded/played back if you could theoretically save a patch/preset on these synths - so the patch wouldn't sound the same, if there was any physical patch cables going on as part of the original sound These synths are a repackage of some old Moog Modular circuit designs from the late 60's/early 70's and they stick to that philosophy The way you would save patches with synths like this, was to have a set of patch sheets on paper.. and record all the knob positions and cable routings by drawing them on. These days it's easier to just take a photograph of course Synths that DO have the panel under digital control - like for example the Arturia Matrixbrute or Moog Sub37.. in those cases you can save patches. But you also don't have all the CV modulation points for each part of the circuit exposed. There will be some CV I/O on the back.. but for specific inputs/outputs. So they handle their internal modulation under digital control. This also adds to the price of the synth design Polyphonic synths.. generally all of them need to be under digital control already - as each voice card needs to be sent the status of the panel to configure itself so each voice sounds the same. So in general all true polysynths will also tend to have patch/preset saving ability

@@Wagoo The technology already begin on that field also, as an analog synth with savable patches such as Melbourne Instruments Nina. I know because I almost bought one, the amount of time that you save with that makes it invaluable as an analog synthesizer.

cap

@@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135 I wish it was, but go ahead and do some research, there's a lot of people that have noticed a quality difference after they stopped using Bob's designs.

@@D1570R73D yeah the quality so that what you mean well the problem i had with my GM is the keyboard on the F note was not working on the keyboard that helps it auto retune the synth tbh ngl

it does not thin it just the build quality on some of them tbh i guess i was lucking only the F Note on the keyboard was the only thing that need to be fix and i was warranty so that was good tbh no cap

@@colourbasscolourbassweapon2135 with the reduced build quality comes a worse sound.

It is a matter of tastes, for me the Pro 800 sounds good. It also depends on how well you learnt to program it.

I think you might be right about the distortion/drive being the cause of them sounding slightly different - when things get summed and go to a filter, they can overdrive the filter and this drive character is what is most pleasing in Moog synthesizers. I have the Model D, the Poly D and the Moog Subsequent 37 and I like the Sub37 the most. Maybe this explains also why I hear some harshness on the high end on my Pro-800. I can hear a “roundness” on the Grandmother at 19:24 that is missing on the Model 15.

@@andreievkalupniek5717 Right, the pro-800 does seems a bit harsh in the high-end. The resonance is all over the shop as well. Untamed, perhaps?

@@Donetur True, regarding taste. I did mention that the assessment was my own opinion. For the Pro-800, I did load the latest firmware, and experiment with all the settings. It just felt a bit difficult to dial in what I was aiming for, and the sounds I was getting didn't give anything back, so to speak. To me, that feeling marks a badly made instrument. It has taken many decades for me to recognize that feeling. Rather than struggle with an instrument, I will convince myself to sell it and move on.

@@thirstyCactus well I am based on my own experience as well I have designed great sounds for the Pro 800, and I can confirm it sounds good as per my experience.

K

Can you please stop it with this sh*t already? Moog doesn't mean anything anymore. I have a Moog Matriarch. You really think they're made from materials that are so much more quality? Yeah, no. I opened it up, all chinese components. "Assembled in USA" doesn't mean sh*t to me. They can be assembled on Mars for all I care. I would like Behringer to clone the matriarch, just so I can have two.

exmoog, now numark :P

They are toys compared to the big boys lol.

@@JewelzFinazzo I put a Take 5 on my desk 2 days ago, the cost was around the same you would expect to pay for a DM12, the difference between the 2 is night and day, and I own both, just not the DM12 keybed. The keybed in the T5 is where it all starts, that's what differentiates a quality synth over something that is subpar, same keybed in my Pro 3 too. What's funny is Modal uses the same keybed in same priced synths with the DM12, so why is Behringer's keybeds so bad?

I'm not sure whether they're paid, but some elitism seems to be at play here.

The day they continue cloning vintage gear and bring their own stuff to the market without ripping off almost 1:1 still selling products of other manufacturers - some people have friends that work at Moog, Roland etc.. Wouldnt you be mad at a company that would do this to the company of one of your relatives/friends?

​@@novaloguea lot of these og synths aren't even made anymore. Not everyone can afford for spend 2-6k on a single synth new (and if you buy vintage used guess what your friends at that company benefit 0) They are opening up things a lot of people would never have access to. The elitists won't stop buying brand name stuff regardless of whether they did or not. Those expensive synth companies are gonna do whatever they can to maximize their own personal profit anyway by selling the company, their IP, or whatever as has been done time and time again regardless of what perceived competition they have or don't have. Which is what this is, competition. They can choose to compete or not. And they chose not to,part of their brand is their boutique expensiveness. Remember Behringer declined to buy Moog when they were up for sale yet again because they don't want to be part of that market segment.

@@novaloguewho cares? I own a Moog Matriarch, and this doesn’t bother me in the least. If anything, this illustrates how over priced many synths are (see “brand tax). If this allows this sound to be put into someone’s hands who maybe doesn’t have the means or the care to pay for a Moog, I’m all for it (even if build quality is the sacrifice) I own a Matriarch, Sub37, OB-6, Trigon-6, and Hydrasynth Deluxe currently. I care about build quality personally, so that’s why I purchased what I did. But that doesn’t devalue the Behringer units whatsoever Whatever inspires people and whatever gets it in their studios is a plus in my books

@@novalogue What about the synth such as the octave cat, the monopoly, the SH-5 , the HS 101, the Pro 1, the Wasp and all the other clones which are not made anynore, if it wasnt for Behringer none of those synth would be easily accessible to people. As far as the clones that are still being made are concerned, like the minimoog etc etc, other companies such as analogue solutions and studio electronics and some others are cloning those too.

Neutron.

Hope you don't have any plugins that try to copy every good synth going

I didn't forget, I was concentrating on. the sounds. I think everyone knows that Moog uses imported components (like everyone else - it's by no way a dis) and assembles in the US, whereas Behringer's assembly plant is in China. Big fan of Moog here btw.

the circuit boards in Moogs are made in China.

@@Heathcliff_hensel Citation needed.

Then don't vote for him, but then if you live in Norwich you won't have the choice.

This video clearly demonstrates that isn't the case but keep hating

False

buying a new moog is like buying a jaguar, made from ford parts, assembled by hobos waiting for the methadone clinic to open

Corny cornball

Buying a Behringer is like lighting the blue touchpaper and watching the flames come out of the haters asses.