@@kierenmoore3236Well compared to other high end Moog Synths like the Model D etc. I think if you are not into patching synth modules, its a plus., of course you can save patches. I think for a guitarist its a perfect synth.
Mr. Carr, that was an amazing video! Hard decision. I'm not a fan of cabling, and I really want to be able to stopre presets, but there is much to love about Grandmother. Thanks!!
For 10 years I had a Slim Phatty, and while I miss the Overdrive on that thing ( It's BEST feature ). I got a Subsequent 37. It's so good having so many modulation and sequence options on a moog... And literally no matter what you do on it everything just sounds rich and detailed. The way the oscillators beat against each other and the way it sounds modulating at high frequencies sounds so damn good. It's honestly hard to go wrong. I can't live without a moog sound, there's just something about it. Oh yes, and the way of modulating a destination by holding a button and turning the knob you want is something I wish was on every synth.
I had a lovely hour in a music shop in Bristol on my birthday last year which changed my view on synths. Playing these two side by side made it really clear to me, that for whatever reason, the Grandmother just chimed with me and I could have stayed there all night. On paper the Grandmother would be the cheaper option so goes to show, it’s not all specs or even just the sound the drives inspiration
No contest every time the GM made a sound it just hit all of those classic feels. That thumpy filter… crazy nice harmonics. You can’t make that thing produce a bad sound. Scared to look up the price!
Thanks for your review, with a hint of scouse :) you saved me from making a mistake. Was thinking of a Sub 37, but it sounds flawed compared to GM. The GM, though not as pretty as the Sub 37 sounds so much nicer (over youtube).
I definitely prefer my Sub37. I freak out with all these cables disturbing me. I also like to save my presets and come back to it later if I need that specific sound
I have both and wouldn’t think of comparing them to each other. As he said, they are completely different synths. The video is great for anyone trying to decide what to buy.
Two years after my first comment.....I really love how the Grandmother handles the high frequencies.It's much mor open sounding than the Sub 37. The Sub feels a little stuck in the mids to me now. They are both good, but I am liking the Grandmother a little more in the category of tones.
Love my subsequent 37 CV ; ) Easy to get lost in making patches. Also additional cv options. Sub sounds warmer and GM sounds brighter. Some find the sound of the sub's osc dull. I think they are a perfect match with my Rev2 .
Does grandmother have beat sync? I understand the sub37 has an option so that when it’s receiving external clock data it will make sure your arpeggio starts on beat no matter whether u hit the keys on beat or not. Does grandmother have a similar feature? Can’t seem to find definitive info on this and it’s holding me back from getting a grandmother as that’s important to my flow currently
It would be nice if Moog would make a Grandfather where they take a Grandmother and add a second envelope, a second utilities section, and they expand the oscillator modulations so both can do linear fm and pwm. I’d also like the subsequent mod/pitch wheels
Can’t decide! They both have very special tonal qualities and frequencies where each synth shines. I feel my current setup needs a direction. Sometimes I use a DAW, sometimes not. Would the 37 or Grandmother complement a Minilogue XD? Which plays better with other gear? I have a Folktek Mescaline as well, Behringer Neutron, a Waldorf Blofeld, TE OP-1 & some odd noisemakers. I feel like I’m missing some grounding...some bass to anchor the sound...both the 37 and Grandmother could handle that but the 37 wins on bass imho. But I’m think the GM wins on connectivity with other gear. Also for the price, GM is nice and I could perhaps add a DFAM in short time. I do love the aggressive tone of the 37, but also thinking it takes over a mix? Because GM is slightly brighter but has some low end I’d think it would gel in a mix easier with other instruments. But I don’t know....decisions, decisions! Also, which is better for drones, dark ambient and experimental music?
It all depends on workflow... but for having things all bouncing around in sync... Sub37... for FM and more experimental tones are best on the GM. GM works best with other Cv modules... I got loads out of it on my mini Moogfest videos with the MoogerFoogers. Sub 37 is just so easy to put together modulating rhythmic stuff. If you've not seen my minimoogfest check them out there as well - it might help. ru-vid.com/group/PLWo-iS-wwHXGGPJ7MXfzXIAmedKxB1RlL
Thanks! I’ll definitely check out your other vids. If I go w/S37 that’ll be it for me for a while. If I get GM I may be able to add an S25 for the character I like from the S37 so much, albeit w/annoying button combinations. Or, maybe I’m incorrect in this thinking?
Yeah, but remember the S25 has the editor to avoid button pushing if your OK with having it hooked up to a computer... not exactly a hands on hardware experience but gets the job done.
Thanks for this. Grandmother seems a bit brighter. Wonder if they fixed the thing with the Sub's filters cutoff being a little low on the 4 pole mode (cuts out around 15k). That gives it a darker sound (I have a Sub Phatty that does that and assume the Sub 37 is similar)
Hey Starsky, awesome work! I’ve been looking for a replacement for my Minitaur to use live but I get the feeling nothing really comes close on the bottom end, have you ever thought about comparing it to other bass synths on the market?
Err - what would be more convenient gigging/live, than a Minitaur … ?! If you’re worried about the cost/loss/damage etc, Behringer have done a clone now … … …
with my pro mixing headphones on, the Grandmother sounds HUGE, more hi-fi, yet more vintage. The Sub 37 sounds like an mp3 compared to the Grandmother. I have played a Subsequent 37 but never laid eyes on a Grandmother. The Sub 37 is certainly amazing, huge sounding in person, so I can't imagine how great the Grandmother sounds in real life.
Not sure why people need to think one is better. GM sounds like vintage modular, it’s literally the same circuit designs as old moog modular, except the oscillators which are minimoog-derived. If that’s what you like, get a GM.
This isn’t about which is better that doesn’t make sense when they’re not similar... but what are the differences and which would fit your music/workflow best?
This is a hard sell because you have patching going on with the grandmother which complicates the ability of both instruments. I don’t feel that is a fair comparison. I own the grandmother, and I am wanting to go and move on to the subsequent 37. I think this video is helpful, but biased because of the big difference in patching the grandmother.
I don’t understand why that’s an issue in any way. What’s the big difference you’re thinking of? .. I’m struggling with what you mean. When listening to the VcOs or filter the patching isn’t influencing anything - but you need to patch to eg do FM. It’s what the patch points are for.. and it has them to do just that. I don’t not use any of the functions of the s37 to match the GM and vice versa - it wouldn’t be much of a comparison if I did.
Love my Sub37, but wish it had a small built in fx section, so I can just whip it to a gig and add delay and reverb without extra plugging in of pedals
Sub37 has more bite, grandmother is smoother as you’d expect. BUT THE MAIN IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER: it’s easier to remove bite and punch, than it is to add it.
The Sub also has a generally darker tone, though … Even darker than the subsequent … The Grandmother/Matriarch have a lot more top-end, to cut through a mix
This was very interesting to watch. Both synths really have their own unique character. I own a Matriarch and a Sub Phatty and the differences are equally pronounced. For my money the Matriarch / Grandmother are the best sounding synths of the decade, but there is also something so warm and cozy about the Sub line. Both get heavy use and I would never sell either.
Hope this idea of playing two different synths is a regular thing, nice to hear tonal differences in these instruments. I say this knowing that you have many videos like this already...just don't want this to end.
I love the Grandmother and Matriarch, but synths without patch memory and full Midi CC/Sysex features just don't fit into my workflow. They always end up collecting dust in the studio and eventually get sold again, so I won't buy any more. For now :D
I actually love synths without presets. It encourages me to work and play in a different way and really helps you learn the instrument in and out. That said, after owning both, the Sub37 is the one I’ll be keeping for a life time.
It’s more of an organic approach with modular no patch memory. Learning how to do it without saving the patch and knowing where all the knobs go the process before you just start saving patches. It’s going to enhance your knowledge of synthesis and your instrument. I think knowing, and being able to perform both ways is the way to go.
It's all about how much time you have, tbh. I thought the same thing originally, but now I love the workflow of the Matriarch for me, also grandmother.
The main feature that I like about the Grandmother over the Sub37 is the sequencer. 256 steps over 64. I like the fact that once you know how to use the Sub37 sequencer and arpeggiator then using the Grandmother is a doddle.
One thing to note about the Sub37 is the sequencer does parameter locking so you can have a different cutoff, envelope, waveshape, etc per step. It’s a toss up for me. I think the Sub37 is the best overall but they both have their strengths.
Thank you so much for the comparison. Both sound great imho. If you have time please do GM vs Model D. Always look foward to your post and proper geeking out to your anslysis. I guess one would buy one over the other depending on what fits your performance or studio intergration. Again both are very fun to twiddle with.
The Sub37 sounds boxy, raw almost numb. Perfect for dark, or Detroit Techno. The GM on the other hand sounds rich, phat, warm... perfect for House, Funk, Hip-hop.
Hey man! Love your videos! Can you please please do a tutorial on how to do the Stephan bodzin lead with the sub 37? There aren’t any clear instructions on RU-vid. Would really appreciate it! Thanks
It’s difficult to answer. It spends on what you’re doing and what you need. The GM and Matriarch have a brighter/harsher vintage tone with the sub 37 being darker. If you can afford it and aren’t bothered about presets or DAW integration and editors and enjoy experimenting and potential eurorack expansion the Matriarch would be great (GM is cheaper). If speed/presets etc is better for your workflow/deadlines then the S37 is better. Sound wise they’re all great and would all work, but for vintage tone probably the GM and Matriarch.
I got both - because the Sub37 can store presets and the GM can patch into my Eurorack. But the latter ended up being more trouble than it's worth so the GM is gathering dust while the Sub37 is still my go-to for exploration. I'll be selling the GM soon.
RMS Why do you think the GM is so much trouble? I’ve owned both and currently have a Sub37 but I can really see myself buying the GM again later on down the road. It’s s beautiful instrument. Actually, the Matriarch may be the way to go.
@@HotStrange I should clarify my context is squarely about work/flow and recalling patches. I think the GM (and semi-mod in general) is super fun to play and explore with, but less practical when I need to recall patches to try on a project that I don't have much time to get done. For instance, I might have 6-7 interesting bass patches that I want to try on a tune... we can flip through those user presets on the Sub37 in seconds and make a decision within minutes, but doing the same with a GM can take an hour by the time all options are patched and calibrated. Obviously, this workflow isn't what the GM was made for -- it's more for performance, exploration and pleasure. Its fun-factor is probably why I haven't actually sold it yet.
RMS Hmm yeah I can see that. Having patch storage can be a big deal in those respects. I do love my Sub37. Though, having owned many synths without patch saving over the years, I can say once you really learn the synth you could get from patch to patch in just a few minutes. I used my MS20 live quite a few times, and unless it was a crazy complex patch, it only took 20-30 seconds to have the next patch ready.
RMS You’ll get there! It does take a little time. It took me a couple years to get to that point. Even then, for life situations, I would have patch diagrams drawn out so I could copy that onto the interface really quick. It’s not ideal, but worth it if you really want to use a synth like that live. Congrats on the new hobby! Haha 🍻
am torn twixt GM and sub 25 (same price)..to me the GM has a much more accented sound and makes the 25 a little too warm....however the integration into Logic is so tempting..do I really wanna go old school (and I did way back then) and copy patches onto paper etc...and strangely I'm not so into patch cables///wanna get songs written not do scientific experiments....wish they could morph the two
Thanks, the video was helpful. Question for you... Based on all the synths you've owned, compared, etc., which one or more do you think are the most musical and versatile? I want 1 or 2 synths for playing sounds similar to Depeche Mode and Nine Inch Nails. Like guitars, maybe this means getting the cleanest tones and couple with fx pedals? Love a good arp and seq to be in the synth. I'd probably buy used and have a budget of around $1k each. But if you suggest there is one synth that can do all that and is at or under 2k, great! Thanks again!
I’d definitely look at the DSI Rev2/Pro8 and the novation Peak for around $1k used. These can cover so much - lead duty as well. But a 3 osc mono would add another character. I’ve seen Trent Reznor with a voyager - but a little out of your price range even used. Take a look at my Bass Station 2 videos - it’s amazing for the price and can even do limited 3 osc tones with the new update. For a total of $2k you could get 16 voice Rev2 and BS2. You can of course get great sounds from Behringers Deepmind - you probably seen my videos comparing it with P6 and Juno106. A much more budget option - but is very flexible. My choice would be the Rev2 (never played the Peak but have owned the BS2, supernova and original BS - if they’re anything to go by it’s well worth a look). Never tried a Minilogue either - but the Monologue sounds great ... just to throw in a couple more options...!
@@StarskyCarr Thanks...appreciate all the info and options. I prefer the Rev2 over the Peak. Hmmm, have not considered a Korg vs Moog. I do love Korg's MS-20 and Poly filters. The minilogue seems a bit like the Peak...Im paying for presets and unsure how musical they would be for creating my own sounds for songs.
@@blindianajones I wouldn't go with the new MS20 as your only mono - the filters are too noisy when reducing the cut-off - it shocked me how noisy they are compared to the original. Korg's presets may be targeted toward a certain market, but it's easy enough to initialise and start form scratch. They do, however, sound really nice. I was surprised how rich the VCOs of the monologue compared to the BS2... but all have limitations from a sound design perspective.
I think a Moog Sub37/KORG Prologue combo would be perfect. Those are my 2 favorite synths I’ve ever owned and they compliment each other so well. It ultimately comes down to your personal tastes though.
@@HotStrange Need to go back and listen to the Prologue. Heard so many minilogue XD patches, I've forgotten how the 16 voice sounds. In Moog land, been listening to a lot of Matriarch sounds. Its a heftier price tage, but I do love the stereo filters and a bit of paraphony.
The Sub 37 sounds more transient, and I personally like that the most. The Grandmother does has some analog phatness to it, like it's been recorded on tape and overdriven a bit. Good for different things. As I see it, the Sub 37 has a more natural, "realistic" voice, while the Grandmother sounds more "electronic". As for ambience/drone sounds, I do prefer the Sub 37.
I have both now but use the Granny more with the two minilogues but i still love the sub37 ,my mate keeps telling me to sell it but i think its a keeper as in years to come i think it will be a classic
I have a sub37 and I have to admit that these muffled highs are starting to frustrate me. I'm beginning to wonder if it's intentional in the sound design of this machine and if someone electronically knows how to identify in the circuits if there isn't a filter deliberately applied to reinforce the bass and filter out the highs. A friend came to my studio and we took a poly d and redid the same sound patch on the 2 machines and as soon as we applied a precise parametric EQ to boost the bass and filter the treble on the poly d... immediately we found ourselves with a sound almost 100% identical to the sub37...which reinforces my point that perhaps an electronic mod on the sub37 could free up the treble. Does anyone have an opinion on the subject?
Sold my sub 37. And my model d. Never missed it. I tried a grandmother today. Wish i didn t. I like it. Sub 37 sounds tame. Grandmother has more balls.
Interesting that moog changed the gain staging on the Subsequent 37 to give more headroom but the Sub 37 doesn't really distort into the mixer when using a single oscillator. Perhaps using 2 oscillators makes the difference? I'm trying to decide between the Subsequent and Matriarch. I do like the multi-drive feature a lot but I also like the 4 note paraphony and the grandmother does seem to sound nicer (assuming the matriarch sounds very similar). The digital control, saving presets etc makes the Sub so much better for modern workflow. I'm not massively into the whole modular cable thing. The Sub seems like it's tuned for bass - not sure if the subsequent is the same? I think the answer is a Subsequent 37 and a Poly D.
For me the real joy of the S37 is syncing the modulation, envelopes and LFOs with the 64 step sequencer which creates all sorts of cool rhythms. The editor is very useful when working.. GM is great for noodling but the s37 gets used a lot more.
Never got on with the Sub 37. It can sound a bit muddy in a mix to me, granted I've heard some great sounds from it. Grandmother wins for me on pure tone, and its several hundred dollars cheaper. I'm very happy with the Grandmother.
My exact thoughts, prior to reading this. My unproven theory of the last decades is that the better current modulars are much closer to vintage quality.
Vintage tone is always a good reference, because it just sounds better. The new stuff’s trying to get there, with varying degrees of success. Sure, we’ve gotten used to mediocrity because that’s the de facto standard now after decades of so so.
Will D Lol. I mean in some cases, sure, but like I said, not everyone wants that vintage tone, and not everything is trying to replicate it. So the constant comparison is really just silly. I chose the Sub37 specifically because it has a newer, more modern take on the Moog sound. Synths like the Prologue, Minilogue, Minibrute 2, Hydrasynth, and so on, all sound new, fresh, and exciting. And none of them sound necessarily vintage and none of them are trying to. That doesn’t at all mean they sound worse or they’re not as good. That’s really kind of an ignorant thing to say. No offense intended.
I've not watched yet but I narrowed down these two synths for my 50th birthday present. I hope by the end of it my choice is confirmed...I plumped for the Grandmother. Let viewing commence....
I feel a bit anxious - hopefully I’ll do it justice. Sounds are similar it’s more about the physical contact and workflow. I love messing around with the GM but I find the Sub is more immediate and flexible when using the DAW.
@@StarskyCarr Well I feel justified in choosing the Grandmother after watching! It's hard to describe but there's more warmth and more of a vintage quality to the GM. I've got an Erebus v2 so I think together I've got enough to experiment with. Nice vid and appreciate your efforts!
Al M I love both but prefer the modern Moog sound of the Sub37. I think that vintage sound is a bit over romanticized but I did love the GM when I had it.
Your timing could not be better, trying to decide if i should upgrade to the 37.......What are your impressions on the quality build differences and tuning stability of each? Grandmother has a lot of documented issues, I think i solved the tuning issue with a pot calibration but not sure yet how long it will hold.....I like the grandmother fir immediacy for bass lines and sub bass but the 37 does a lot more. I do have the matrix brute, primarily looking for bass lines and bass drones......that moog sound since i sold my voyager. I have a two row modular but don’t need to interface with the grandma but do like the sample and hold feature in the grandma if i patch it.
As far as build quality is concerned there’s not a lot between them. I’m not a fan of the GM power supply, and the case is plastic as opposed to the wood and aluminium of the S37. I had to send the s37 back as there was an issue with it sending constant random MIDI messages, and my Minimoog also had to be replaced. No problems with the GM as of yet. You can simply initialise a patch on the S37 which is great for immediacy as is the panel mode - just a single button for each so easy to access. I’ll keep them both for a while, but if I do sell one it will be the GM. The S37 has so much more for me - but I’m not big into modular.
Starsky Carr thanks , i had to send my first GM back as well....I am pro Moog and couldn’t live without one in studio but i have to say the quality of the GM is not the same as the voyager and slim phatty builds ....I realize the voyager is more expensive ....
Personally, if you already have the MatrixBrute, I would keep the GM if you really just want that Moog sound. The Sub37 isn’t the classic Moog. It’s more modern and aggressive. I love mine and will never sell it, but, while it can get into that classic Model D territory, it doesn’t sound like then typical Moog without some push in that direction.
JVMC I never had a single issue with my GM, and only know of a few people that have. Outright saying the build quality is inferior is wrong as it only pertains to the model you had and not the synth overall. Mine was built like a tank.
