Ethiopian Siege Onagers with Torsion Engines are good at making things go Boom (especially with the x256 mod). Oh wait, maybe you meant something else by Booming...
The Ethiopian boom is quite good on Arena. No mining camp required with the extra gold. If you go FC and arrive in castle age, the full 500 bonus arrives before 15 Min. Spamming pikes bombard cannons and scorpions and it's an easy win.
I am quite certain I am never going to do anything with this information in my life, even if I do ever play AOE2 again, and yet still I enjoyed the video. There's just something so satisfying about hearing about this game's number crunching.
This is so hard to quantify. Think of the decreasing value of resources over time (+300 wood in dark age would be crazy, +300 wood at 25 minutes you barely notice). Or think of the unit costs of units a civ encourages you to build: some are just more cost efficient than others (think of mass cav archers or paladins).
like the main reason people see Khmer as god-tier booming is because they typically boom into Khmer elephants, which are a sight to behold at lower levels.
Aye, and there are plenty of intangible factors beyond raw resource advantage that determines a good booming civ. Those that can play defensively early on like the Koreans and Mayans suit a booming playstyle as well. The Huns bonus, of course, goes beyond wood saved because villagers that would be building houses are now doing other things with their valuable time.
Something you didn't mention with the Huns that I thought of, is that not only are you not running the risk of getting capped because you forgot to build enough houses but also you never need to spend villager time building houses. So the time that would be spent by a villager building houses can instead go towards building other buildings you need, or gathering resources.
Pretty sure he included it in the equation for the cost of the house because a house is only 25 Wood per house but he got 33 resources per house meaning he included the time taken to build the house in terms of the resources which the villager could have harvested in the meanwhile
For Khmer you also forgot to add that they need less mills if you go for a farm-based eco. I usually end up doing 3-4 mills in a boom game so that 200-300 wood saved. Beyond the fact that it's just nice to be able to throw down farms without setting up a gather point. It allows you to use some spaces you might not with another civ and requires a bit less attention/micro.
Something I'd probably have also mentioned is the civ's *defensive* capabilities. For example, Teutons aren't just great for booming because of their farming bonus- they're great because they're good for playing defensively, and getting long term value out of any defenses they build.
I have to object to the methodology here. Boom strengths vary significantly based on when you reach Castle Age, and many of these bonuses allow you to reach Castle Age sooner. For example, Celts can do a 23+2 FC into a boom (probably faster too; that was with building a mining camp on gold), Britons can do 22+2 because of their cheaper TCs (see JupeAoC's video: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ugpplmL08_I.html ), Mongols can similarly do a faster uptime on maps with extra hunt (see T90's video on MbL's insane: Black Forest boom ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-fML7KHgJdtg.html ), and Khmer can do some insane builds like 23+0. There's also the fact that the bonuses affect your actions during the boom as well. For example, as Teutons, you don't just build the same farms and get a wood discount. Instead, you're building a new farm every time you have 36 wood instead of every time you have 60 wood, meaning that you're producing farms significantly faster.
I don't agree zeroing in on very specific build orders that are used by only the top 0.1% of players is a better methodology, and I think it's obvious this is intended as a purely theoretical approach for entertainment.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw I have to strong agree with Quincun on this one. the methodology is fun to look at, but is honestly very misleading. And I don't think its just for the 0.1% of top players. At 1300 elo solo or 1800 team elo that I play at, the speed at which a player hits castle age and the timing makes a huge difference. For example, if your castle age is slow, and you get attacked before having defensive TC's to garrison in you might lose more villagers, causing a huge loss of resources. This is seen more often in lower elo's than in higher, so I think the "only top 0.1% does this matter" argument falls apart quite quickly.
@@connorbroderick7148 But that wasnt the question. The point of this video was not to find the best fast castle civ, but the civ that has the biggest advantage ressource wise in going for a full boom.
@@SpiritOfTheLaw I really disagree with you there. You dont have to be top 0.1% to notice you can click up without building blacksmith/market as Khmer. Im pretty sure a good chunk of the playerbase at least somewhat uses the mentioned earlier FC-timings. Probably not perfectly, but it doesnt take an elaborate buildorder to click up a bit earlier with britons and go 26+2 instead of 27+2.
@@ucallmeschnitzel Sure but the title says "best booming civs" and I would argue that the biggest resource advantage is not a reliable indicator on who has the best boom.
You brought up the Malay faster aging bonus. But not the resources saved from cheaper fish traps, no refreshing the fish traps, and not needing to get normal farms. It might be alot more complicated to calculate, but its definitely something that should be taken into consideration.
I was thinking the same thing. Might have to experiment with that one on my own. It would only work on a few maps though. It would have to be a water map and fishing farms are so easy to raid with even a small navy. The Budapest map would work well. You would still have to chop a LOT of wood to make fishing ships and (long lasting) fish traps. Big masses of fishing ships also bump into each other more than farmers unless you built more docks, which is expensive… I bet you SOTL thought about this but it would depend on how many docks you want to build, how much wood is on the map. He was probably like, “Forget it! Just going to leave that question blank.” Ha ha… anyway, in my opinion, I think booming with fish traps would be slower than farming, but it’s hard to say for sure. What do you think?
@@jamesinciardi5099 @James Inciardi ive been maining malay for the last yearish. I havent noticed any difference of booming potential lost due to using fish traps vs farms. In fact, it might be even easier. Ive considered using fish traps for even other civilizations. As on a wood/food ratio fish traps are more efficient than any other farming method. Even compared to imperial age farms. As for the pathing, its not bad at all. As long as you dont have 3 traps side by side, and the traps themselves are at least 3 tiles away from the dock. Youll have no issues with ship pathing. I usually rely on berries, boars, and sheep until feudal age(19-25 vils). At that point i have 6-10 doing food, and the rest on wood, and about 2-3 fishing boats getting normal fish. Once i get feudal age, i get another 2 docks(if they fit) and pump out those ships, with almost all my vils going to wood, or building infrasrructuce. One or two on gold so i have enough for castle age. Get about 10ish fish traps and im progressing well. Idk if other peiple do this, but with the exception of the first 5 villegers(on food), i rally all newly created vils to the lumber gulags.
This feels like an applications paper with focus on simulations where SotL has been writing a few methods papers. Not bad, but a tad different. I liked the video!
@@Oxyggs You're right, in the long run it is definitely a solid boost, but as far as actually booming is concerned, it's not doing you any favours, since you're probably getting it around the time you've finished booming. So, for the purposes of this video, it won't help the Indians in that regard.
Good approach. We need more categories and harder data though. More ideas for categories beyond 25min: - Wonder race time - time to ready 200 pop full vil + market + both sling upgrades - time to 100k gold (sell everything else --> faster food/stone bonus count too) Harder data: - calculate times/res, not from random 1600 players - have a competition to produce highest possible stat for a category, I'd be willing to sponsor a few $
Great vid as always! I think if you're talking about faster booms, e.g. with Persians or Malay, Khmer should be in that discussion as well because they can get to castle age faster than most civs (I think a 24 pop fuedal straight to castle is pretty doable, I've seen even 23 pop but that makes the wood for booming more of an issue). So they not only save wood on feudal buildings and farm faster, they start the 3 tc boom maybe a minute or two faster as well.
That's true and I was thinking about this along the video, I'm able to make 23 pop boom with Khmer (hunting deers luring with scout, of course), clicking up castle at 10:40. At 13:20 starting to build 2 TC, wood isn't an issue since you send 17 vills to wood after clicking up and make double bit axe. I compa red some recs with similar level players and that gives you vills advantage compared with other civs in every case.
I'd say that malay boom requires a different approach with more houses and feudal fish traps... But still it may beat up any civ with infinite food banks...
We need an update on this. Burgundians are now top-tier IMO, they can comfortably grab both horse collar and double bit axe in dark age and heavy plow/bow saw in feudal if doing fast castle while barely slowing down compared to a completely standard civ, and that snowballs fast. Plus, their team bonus gives them food in addition to gold from relics, and their unique tech makes their farms generate gold. None of their bonuses individually look like a big deal, but I find myself playing normally and suddenly I have enough food to hit 100 vills AND age up without even having to think about it.
Interesting that you included Malians, but didn't include Vietnamese. If you get every economic upgrade up to castle age that is 900 wood saved directly. No calculations needed. Comparable to the top 3. If you include gill nets that is another 200 wood on water maps.
Man I had the best game in a 4v4 pocket mayan game. Fc'd plumes 1 tc, lucky res with close deer etc, finished fully castle upgraded just as 6 of them found a hole. Never raided all 4 players hard in a game before (10+ vills killed per player before post imp). Only really poss because of mayan eco. I had to watch it back in rec game and numbered the original 6 raiding party to see if any made it till end. 1 did.
The craxy thing of the vikings is that the bonus kicks in instantly super early at 11 and 20 minutes in a standard Arabia game. If I dont get far behind as Vikings I can always close out the game with this massive advantage in Castle age.
Maybe a better/different approach could be to look to answer this question. Which pocket civ in Arena can complete it's boom the fastest and get ready to make military, whether it requires 140 vills for the civ or 100.
@@nathangamble125 that is my point exactly. It doesn't make sense to go 140 vills with goths, but franks need that much and thus effective boom is different for both
Also this is very interesting for arena but if one can boom on water (say four lakes) fishing ships can really bring in some changes Lots of civs that are hard to quantify their eco bonus (Longer lasting resources for mayans for example [more food on hunt + sheep + berries] which saves farms and collects faster, allowing you to get more eco upgrades (such as horse collar) before building farms. Nice video though as always!
SoTL - 3:00: You did not consider the -100 wood penalty that you will inevitably be behind by default. While it's true that those -100 wood are basically included into the first 3 houses every other player would have to pay, it does not strictly translate into a 630 wood bonus as you still have to make up the -100 initial wood lost by being huns.
I would love a pro player give their thoughts based on experience and compare both lists! Like you said slavs and persians are underestimated in this approach but the rest seems sensible and should agree with the intuition of the majority of players!:) Well done!
Is there a chance for a collaboration with one if the history RU-vidrs (like Metatron)? Your comparisons of the campains with actually history shows us you have interest beyond game mechanics. Would be interesting to debaze about unit counters in history.🤔
One factor to the Huns not needing houses is that that also saves them construction time for every house they don't make. That opens up a lot of windows, most obviously resource collection time, but certainly other buildings that'd help secure a win as well.
As someone who comes from other RTS games and looks down on the aoe2 community as a result, I have to say this could have been done a whole lot better. You can't go for full macro approach if you don't survive to the point when you can actually boom. Because of this, alot of other factors are important to account for. If your civ is woefully underwhelming untill castle age, the odds are you have invest that much more in military to survive untill you can boom. That would have given a lot more in-depth understanding of what civ is "better" at booming. Refer to the Win-Time Elapsed rate graphs you've made for each civ in your civ vids to start with.
But it isn't measuring that, it's a theoretical graph on what bonuses give the most resources by the time you hit the boom mark. Then you apply the extra variables to the game
Confess spirt of the law. Your play system is to overboom to 180 or 200 villagers under a 200 cap. (circumstances permiting) then cull the villagers for a 120 army. Great Content even though I never have played the game. ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️ Just waiting for getting the funds for my next gaming pc in January.
I think Bulgarians are decent boomers too : you can put 4 TCs in Castle Age with your starting stone, you might not have the wood for the 4 right away but it'll come quickly, and if you have around 18-20 farms already you can maintain villager creation for a while and if all you're relay point are on wood, you'll have enough to make farms. I found out i manage to hit Imperial at around the same time as with any other civ (~35 mins) but with already 130 vils, some times overflowing with wood which i use to make lots of military buildings
I would love to see poles added to this now, they have such a unique boom potential with instant food collection. I find them super smooth with even a 4 or 5 tc boom off 26-27 vills.
If you have horse collar you gain 200 food instantly when seeding 8 farms around the folwark, 40 farms means 1k food so its on par with the teutons. It is much better than just 10% faster farming since you get it up front and you are encouraged to place farms better which gives better efficiency. On top of that you gain lots of gold from mining stone, 50% of the stone collected is gained as gold, easily 1k free gold on top of the already great farming bonus. That bonus is better than working 50% faster since you also gain 50% more resources from the stone tiles. Poles has the greatest eco bonus of all civs if they mine stone and uses the folwarks. Great for castle dropping in arena too since you dont need workers on gold to get to caste age, while you get stone for castle you get the gold for castle age+ some more.
This is almost impossible to measure and certify. So many variables, SOTL would maybe take a Doctorate time analyzing all the possibilities. But anyways, keep the good work mate!
With Cumans in Arena I arrive at Imp Age at 25 min with massive economy. 100% of games better economy than all the other players. Doesn’t mean I always win, but in terms of booming, once you master the 2TC in feudal, the growth is huge, even if you get to Castle age later. They never catch you up. In fact, I spend 25 seconds in Castle before clicking to Imp. I queue 1 vill in one TC, build a Uni (siege workshop was built on the way to castle age) and instant click to Imp.
I think you missed a huge piece on the Celts. They collect wood faster and you quantified that, but the bigger benefit is balancing your economy with fewer lumberjacks. 1 of every 6 lumberjacks in a standard build can be retasked to something else which really opens up the potential. It's not dissimilar to the Persians getting to their desired villager count more quickly. I'm not a big Celts players so maybe you want them on wood, but being able to put out extra farmers early boom and piggyback on the wood bonus can be a huge benefit. I get that siege is wood intensive so that's where the bonus really helps too, but in purely booming, you aren't going to be worried about the wood as early. This same logic is often applied to Teutons as well. Cheaper farms results in less woodcutters and more farmers.
Surprised that Chinese wasn't mentioned with their +45 farm food bonus. That bonus is a wood discount, food bonus, and a time-value delay. In addition of cheaper technologies and time-value boost of 3 villagers can make quite a boom for that civilization.
A better test with less player introduced error would be to run 1000 AI vs AI games with random civ. At 25 mins review the game stats to see how much total resources they've collected and tabulate the data across all civs.
I dont think that would be good, consider that actual gameplay includes that player introduced error, so we are talking about something real making this type of analysis. That ia analysis, to begin with, you wold have to program it like a TAS for each civ, beacause the AI is made to respond to the player`s strategy, and you would be telling it to just boom for 25 min. I think Spirit´s aproach is better and data worthy.
I think you should've included chinese. ~250 saved res in techs are probably soaked up by the minus starting res, but depending on the start, being about 1.5 vills ahead accounts up to roughly 750 res by min 25 and you also have the 120 wood saved for houses. not counting in any farm bonus yet. and not to forget the quite large bonus of getting ALL techs -20% once in imp, even military which leads to a very "fast" boom into military transition. Vietnamese could've been added too, as the "no wood cost for eco upgrades" also adds up to roughly 700 wood saved
You also didn’t mention that with the Persian faster working town centres, you save time on upgrading loom, wheelbarrow and handcart which could give you one extra villager!
Mongols hunting bonus does help to consistently hit Feudal age faster and as a result Castle age too. But have to agree on Persians, Vikings and Teutons to be in the top three to be able to reliably hit 100 vills in the 26th minute.
Why are you not taking into account the extra villagers that you will have due to building the TCs earlier? Since Britons have cheaper TCs, they can do a faster castle age and immediately build two or even three TCs much faster than other civs and start pumping out villagers immediately, giving them a villager lead which helps the boom significantly. The same thing happens with the Khmer being able to advance without extra buildings (and having the faster farming rate), and the Mongols getting an insanely fast castle age time too.
Did a quick calculation for Chinese: Loses 250 resources at the beginning, but has a 2 vill lead for most of the game assuming identical boom. 2 vills should collect roughly 0.8 resources per second, over 25 minutes that's 1200(!) resources. They should also save about ~200 on eco technologies depending on whether they get hand cart before going imp, and 75 wood on houses because of the TC pop bonus. That's 1200+ extra resources by 25 minutes, which would make them #1 in this video. I don't think they're that _that_ good, there's probably something I'm not considering, but they should be on the list. Same with Mayans, possibly.
I was hoping for some info on the wheelbarrow fix (from the latest patch), but I suppose it's really hard to measure. I suppose in short you could say: Wheelbarrow (and Handcart) has a bigger effect on economy than ever before, so it's even more important to not forget it and research it in time. (unless you're aztec/khmer)
For Britons, feel like a larger civ pop from cheaper tcs should have been taken into account (and ofc most people would specialise their builds depending on civs to maximise the bonuses they are getting, such as possibly more vils farming if they have a food bonus to later spam food intensive units)
Dang! I thought Mongols would be in there because they were mentioned at the beginning. Been having a lot of fun with that civ and am curious about how much the 40% extra hunting speed really helps.
If you use a standard 27+2 build, it doesnt really help much. However, if you mix up your build and click up faster, you get something like the persian bonus and end up with more vills. Also, on black forest you can sometimes 7 or even 10 pigs, meaning you will drown in food and can click up super early.
Malay's age up speed equates to 4.6 vills, as you said. Khmer and Ethiopia also benefit largely from age up time. I can consistently hit castle in 13min with Ethiopia with res to build two TC's immediately. Khmer I've gone as fast as 12:08 but only res to build one. Not having to build a mining camp for Ethiopia means not having to build those last two vills before going up to FA. It also means 3 rather than 4 on wood in DA. This is a 3 villager savings worth of time. With two TC's built immediately upon reaching CA that becomes a 6 villager advantage once other civ's have their 3rd TC built. A six villager advantage should equate to about 550 in res for the remaining portion of the 25 minutes. Add in the 400 food and gold given upon aging, but deduct out the three villager deficit during the FA and CA aging research time, and you end up with about a 900 res advantage.
You should have included Mayans and Chinese. Also should talk how does the fastest collection rates affect every civ. For example Mongols collect food faster, so they can reach age faster and start its boom earlier. How does this affect mid and late? They will have advantage in the villager count.
I find that Malay has an amazing booming potential. Once you have your fishing boats and fish traps running, they can cover all your foods needs, leaving more villagers to wood and stone, leading to more fishing boats and town centers. - thereby making a positive feedback loop. Thus enabling you to go for 4 Town centers instead of the traditional 3 or even going for 5. Not to mention that you'll reach your booming target, say 100 workers way faster, when a third or a half is fishing boats. Add on top of that, not wasting time on advancing age, and you have what I believe is the strongest booming potential in the entire game.
It is also worth considering, that the infinite fish traps, mean you do have to boom as far for the same effect, as you don't have to spend wood on farm replenishment. Meaning your target is lower, a third of it is fishing boats, and thus it is reached way faster. Just gotta advance to imperial age and get that forced levy and it's time for the zerg rush.
problem with this is that if you get heavily attacked near your docks, you take a really big hit while with vils you can always garrison them for a bit until you deal with the enemy. Berbers heavy demo ships for example can outrun the Malay docks and destroy all the fishing ships and traps D:
@@madeiraislander I don't disagree, but you'll have a lot more villagers chopping wood, so you should be able to add in some fire ships or gallies to make a wall of ships. Also, you can be lucky to get inland seas, or closed off seas at the edge of the map. I also find that on coastal or similar, you can often get a castle and towers that can literally reach the edge of the map, thereby protecting your fishing boats with heated arrow.
Very math heavy, but maybe a cool idea: What if you were to take a bunch of ranked games from black forest (a boom expected map) and look at the resource collection graphs of them all to determine when a civ is booming. Taking the derivative of the resources collected curve will give you the instantaneous rate that resources are being collected. You can then determine when a boom has been reached by the time a civ achieves some arbitrary "full boom collection rate". A rate could be considered "booming" if it surpasses some arbitrary rate (perhaps 120 vils times the average collection rate of a non-bonused civ [120 vils * ~20resources/min]). By marking the average time a civ hits "full boom collection rate" would give you a pretty quantitative method for determining the best booming civs. TLDR: What would the quantitative data look like if booming was determined by the time that a civilization reaches a resource collection rate, where the shortest time denotes the best civilizations?
My picks: Teutons (cheap farms are always nice!) Huns (no houses and #1 on land maps imo) Persians (better overall town centers and docks) Celts (more efficient wood) Japanese (cheaper drop offs are always appealing!) Vikings (free wheel/cart helps keep town centers on creating vils rather than research)
Can we include, for the, Britons the faster shepherd bonus? It does help in keeping the villager production going until your out of sheep, cow, or whatever herd animal there is which makes it a much smoother transition to other food sources since we’re including efficiency.
Because I have a bit of time, here are the best civs for Drushes 5. Incas - Get helped out by more effective houses and an extra Llama, giving them a strong Dark Age economy. 4. Celts - Lumberjack bonus AND faster infantry, helping to remedy one of the biggest problems with a Drush (speed). 3. Aztecs - Start with extra Gold, which can be used to make 5 or 7 Militia without any mining. Also have faster unit creation times and slightly better Villager work rates. 2. Lithuanians - Start with +150 Food, giving them the fastest Drush possible. The main problem is that it's so fast that you won't know where to send your troops, effectively limiting the point of getting it out so fast. 1. Goths - Between free Loom and cheaper Infantry, they can easily get 6 Militia out for the price of 5, while benefiting from better hunting against Boars.
Early eco bonus would make them too big of pine in the arse. They have good tech tree, very sturdy buildings, they stomp infantry and got cheap trash/camels. Eco bonuses would allow them to get their castle age faster and that would invalidate scout/knight rush and enable (relatively) early agression, resulting in easy imperial age jump. If Byzantines will ever get early Eco bonus, so should the goths.
Britons hugely underestimated here. You can reach castle age very fast AND make extra farms while keeping enough wood for TCs. That means the 3 TCs will work max capacity from the start and you get to castle age really fast.
Thinking about this video, I wonder if maybe a different metric might be useful: how much time does it take for a given civilization take to get to 100 villagers, assuming conventional builds? I understand that there may be other issues in calculating this, as it may be difficult to try and standarize build timings across multiple civilizations and skill levels, but it might help better quantify the less obvious bonuses that help some civilizations reach their booming goals earlier than others. Perhaps this may show my own ignorances, but I would think high level booming would be more interested in reaching a specific number of villagers, not necessarily a specific amount of resources. Just a thought. Great video, as always.
Not sure if that metric is all that useful. The problem is that creating vills faster is only a temporary benefit: Your TCs will go idle once you reach 130ish vills, so the other civ can catch up. So if you reach 130 when your opponent is at 120, your advantage is only about 100 ressources (the ressources your extra vills will gather before the enemy gets to 130 as well (assuming 20 res/min and 4 TCs). I think the important metric is how many ressources you can invest into your army at around min 30 - having more vills earlier helps in that case, but so does getting techs for free.
Another great bonus for khmer is that they hit castle age and thus more TCs earlier, letting them get a few extra vills before anyone else starts booming.
Are you sure you did the integral correctly? I tried that aswell but it went kind of different: adding a jump but deducting a constant value(50f / villager) should actually be a bit smaller than that 6.8% value, at around 3.7% ... anyway nice vid keep it up u r cool
I think looking at vill count at 25 min mark is also important, therefore expecting civs like Italians/Malians/Persians/Vikings(considering everyone does cart) etc would be ahead over generic booming
Unrelated question: will you consider doing analysis like this for AoE III, or just keep pumping out AoE III content in general? We really lack AoE III presence on youtube, especially with your unique way of approaching things.
I think you way underrated Britons. With the faster sheep and cheaper tc's, they can get up to castle age far faster and still afford a 3 tc boom or more. 135 wood is practically a lumbercamp. Britons should be able to get at a vil advantage over a lot of other civs on this list.
thinkj the fact that khmer only needs 1 mill to be really helpful and flexible. just the fact that you can put the farm anywhere. dont need to walk to tc and build it there, etc
My fav civ is inca. They are not the best at booming but they have wood and stone discount + they have extra food at start. They are top win rate in Arena.
I think resources saved/extra resources is a bit of a limited way to view booming. The convenience factor of some bonuses (imo) can be just as useful in booming. Khmer have the easiest fast castle of any civ because A) the constant trickle of food means you never have to manually drop off food or wait, and they can effectively skip feudal age entirely by clicking up to castle the second feudal age is finished researching, saving both the wood from a market and blacksmith which can be put to more farms, as well as the build time needed to make them, and the Khmer farming will only get stronger the further into your boom you get. With Britons, faster sheep collection lets you get through dark age a bit faster, and the cheaper TC bonus means its much easier to immediately place more TCs, since with some other civs its possible to be bit short on wood at the start of castle age to put down 2 or especially 3 extra TCs. I think the Persian and Indian villager bonuses tend to snowball the more into your boom that you get, so I think the 25 minute limit sells them both a bit short (more so with Persians). I wouldn't say they are top 5 but Bulgarians are the only civ that can afford 4 TCs with just their starting stone which must count for something.
Why is everyone mentioning the bulgarians? You cant place 3 extra TCs anyway (you will lack the wood, and the food to keep them producing), so its utterly pointless to even think about it. Litteraly their only advantage is not mining 100 stone in mid castle age, which is barely noticable.
I think Franks might be slightly higher depending on how many farms you make since they will have the upgrade sooner and if you time them right they provide more food earlier / less resources spent.
