Best Knee Position for Squats Study | Educational Video | Biolayne 

Could you do more videos like this about powerlifting and biomechanics? Also, could you talk more about how you were able to set a squat record despite having longer legs? This was a great video, and tracks with how I’ve always squatted. I have really long legs for my height, and my knees always slightly caved at the bottom. I was never really able to fix this despite going down to a low weight and training back up with what I thought was more ideal form. Funnily enough, I actually realized independently that my glutes were taking over on heavier lifts because they were stronger. Actually, because of my posterior chain being stronger and because of my limb ratios, my conventional deadlift PR is just under 40% higher than my squat PR. I also chose to start rounding my upper back slightly because I felt stronger that way (without any pain/injury issues), and I like the advice to practice lower weights with the modified form that starts to manifest at high weights. Actually I used to have more incidents of back pain when I strictly deadlifted with with a perfectly straight thoracic spine

Love this. We need more studies on biomechanics with longitudinal injury outcomes. It’s hard to make strong conclusions with limited data.

We need to get Layne and Squat university together to discuss this. My take is that powerlifting pros can get away with it since their lifting form is optimized for their body, in a way to lift as much weight as possible. Novice lifters however probably should focus more on "proper" technique and engrave it into their muscle memory.

I am disabled (CP) so I do my squats differently than normal people because due to poor balance. I have to use a front squat upper body strap harness (I hate using a dip belt, they sit too low for me) and dip bars to hold onto in order to keep my balance. During squats, I can't keep my knees out in order to save my life if it ever came to that. They naturally cave in, with weight or no weight, when squatting. I have never had knee pain after a squatting session. Like Norton mentioned, same personal experience, if there's going to be pain, it's going to be in my back, not in my knees. While I am not in the 300s yet like normal powerlifters, I am pushing my small frame (5'9", 150 lb) limits.

What a great video!! This is game changing! Thanks for sharing!

This explains so much for me. My knees naturally cave in a bit when I squat, especially once the weight starts getting heavier. Because of hearing how knee caving was bad, I would try and keep my knees open, and I'd feel so much more strain doing this. Also, I noticed that my adductors would sometimes be sore. I've since learned that knee caving isn't necessarily bad, and have stopped trying to overrcorrect it and just focus on other form cues. This feels much more natural to me, and now that I've gone back to squatting like this, I felt my glutes get sore (which rarely happens, actually so it was surprising to me how much they responded to my squat session earlier this week but I think it's because I was finally letting them fully join in on the squat lol).

Makes sense that the glute would work more in the valgus position. I presume they’re working eccentricly at the end of range to prevent further internal rotation at the hip and further valgus at the knee. Keep up the good work layne

As someone who is new to the fitness world and about to start weightlifting, this is so encouraging to me! I started doing some research about the best forms, but got overwhelmed so easily. Thank you for this, Dr. Norton! P.S. Dr. John Delony says hi! He’s how I found you😊

I feel stable and strong when my knees cave in, the only knee injuries I've ever had have occured when actively forcing my knees outward

FTA - to support one of the few channels that provide objective, highly credible, scientifically supported health/fitness information.

Dr. Layne - thanks for another informative video! I often do split squats (rear leg elevated) and feel it uses my glutes and adductors far more than a traditional squat. Is that because it’s single leg movement so it requires more stabilization effort from those muscles? Or is the exercise actually utilizing them as prime movers in a way the squat doesn’t?

This was so motivating. I spend a lot of time recording all the steps in building software apps and get low views but know that it is helpful because I wish I had access to it when I started.

4 The Algo

Probably the reason you get increased Glute Activation with the knees caving inward is because the Glutes are then in a position to be Eccentrically resisting the knees caving or internal rotation of the Thighs.

This was well put together 👏🏼 If your knees cave and you’ve never had knee pain and your glutes are strong ….Don’t worry about it. If your knees cave in but you’ve got weak glutes and hip or knee pain then work on your glutes amongst other things. It all depends where the drive and effort is coming from (foot pressures etc)

Maybe I'm wrong, but my understanding of the hip band stuff is that it is actually detrimental to muscle growth. It may "activate" the glutes, but it essentially keeps the glutes in a constant state of contracted tension, whereas the muscle need to stretch in order to significantly grow. With knee valgus, you may be getting a better stretch. But IDK I'm not a chemist.

I think a good part of why people do this is the wideness of the stance. I can't even imagine squatting with my feet that close to each other, it would literally crush my testicles and just be uncomfortable in general. And when I have a proper wide stance, which also makes me stable with these crazy weights on my back, the knees simply can't fold inward, it's a completelly unnatural movement.

Great video! One of my fav lately, for sure.

Great video! Thanks for putting out the information

Probably important to highlight that the ‘glutes’ associated with knee valgus are the Medius and Minimus, which aren’t associated with hip extension. So if glute max activates more in a valgus position and the adductors cause valgus and also help with hip extension then rock that valgus

Cool video, and here’s some straw for the algorithm!

Damn this is actually good to hear, cuz in my own experience I've always deadlifted with my back a little rounded and I always have people making comments about how I'm going to hurt myself, only time I've ever hurt myself was when I tried to correct that and do it the "right" way, lol.

So grateful you share your knowledge, you are one of the best!

When I first started lifting, squats scared me a bit because I worried I'd seriously hurt myself if I didn't have perfect form. This is good info!

This was so interesting! Thank you for this!!

Good to know that my knee valgus isn't a problem, but now it also makes a ton of sense why my glutes and hamstrings always feel more worn out from squat day than my quads.

if your upper back is bent forward a bit but your lower back is vertical, you would actually be putting less stress on the lower back. Then the part of your back which actually has the muscle belly (it's sort of the upper part of the lower back and the lower part of the middle back) will be carrying the load, while the lower back has only fascia. So at least it makes sense.

Makes sense that close leg squats activate glutes more. Similar to straight leg deadlifts, the stretch on glutes is greater when legs are close.

You: "He's the world's leaving expert on booties." Me: "No. I am."

I love Lya 😻 no idea Layne and she knew each other!

Ok, this is kind of interesting then. I wonder if you can "find your default" at lighter warmup loads and trying different positions of knees / hips / feet? See which one feels best, go up a little weight, try them all again and try to confirm feel? I'm still fairly new to weight lifting and very new to barbell squatting, and without any formal coaching I feel like I'm still trying to find a good form that I can consistently default too. This study might suggest a little more experimentation is in order.

Thanks for the info!

Excellent video

I just tried it. I can feel a ton of tension through my glutes with knee valgus vs without.

Please bring Lya on to discuss

Layne, I have done the Starting Strength method for squats for six years now, and still consider myself a novice lifter and of course will never compete at your level, even at a masters level, since I am over 70. Rip is very big on proper form because the right form recruits all the muscles in the posterior chain, and does not emphasize one muscle group over another -- which is what would happen with a knees in squat effectively "over recruiting" the glutes. Thus the knees out approach with Starting Strength, also because it provides the novice lifter the "feeling" of a more stable platform. I typically squat low to mid 200s for five and have never had knee OR back problems. Unless a person is going balls out, like you and other competitive lifters do. a squat done with good form will NEVER hurt your knees, and likely never strain your back. You might be sore if you push it a bit too much, but that's about it.

Thanks again Doc

Great video

Alfredo sawce

I just wish this video came out 4 days ago😁😁 i was doing squat on multipress deepest as I could and I noticed my knees are caving in so I forced them out and now my right knee feels really weird.. I didn't have any problems with knees for years only after i did this😢 😅

I guess, in terms of the glute activation, it makes sense since when the knees cave in there is also more stretch and emphasis in the glutes. I also totally agree with the deadlift part. As long as the lower back is straight, the upper back can be in just about many different positions in a range, I've found myself also rounding my upper back a bit when I brace and lift. If I don't do so and keep it straight, I feel strength loss and more pressure on my lower back but maybe that's just me. Eddie hall himself didn't lift 500kg with a straight upper back. It's obvious that it's a bit rounded as well.

I'm glad to hear this. The valgus haters are rough. I've seen a comment on a chick's video where they said " as soon as I saw her knees falling in, i clicked away" like it's weakness to them. And she had well developed quads.

For the algorithm, thanks for the video.

Please do a vid on arching during bench!

Brett is the "sir mix a lot" of personal trainers...

Al Gore makes my knees cave in 😉

acute injuries happen because tissues are expose to loads greater than what they can bear. nothing magical so far. I always suspected that ligaments dont Adapt in the same way that tendons do, since an acl ruptures at around 150kg of force equivalent, correct me if I am wrong. As far as I know ligaments have less to do with mechanjcal stabilisation of a joint but with proprioception, which meana regulating muscle tension through spinal and cerebellar feedback loops. this is why some velocity is needed in most cases to rupture a ligament: It happens too quick for the impulses of your ligament to affect muscle tension. But these are educated guesses only. i learned thar when studying PT but never did the research myself

Where the squats loaded? And concerning rounded your back during deadlifts, it happens, but sucks. I would have to discount Stuart McGills work that clearly showed time and time again, that a neutral spine is the goal. I believe him and his team were the first to record a slipped disc in the lab during a rounded deadlift - it's in one of his text books, photos and all. If you cave your knees in and go from a seated to standing position, you would have to use a fair bit of hip extension to rise due to crappy activation of the quads. Now do that repeatedly under load and see how that goes.

Tipped pelvis that inhibits internal rotation will effect what you can do .Its quite common among good power athletes too . important for your coach to be able to recognize it and not push you into oriented movement patterns .Also valgus knee cave can be from the calf /foot relationship . Want the low down see Bill Hartman to really understand it .

This isn't counterintuitive as it's the same principle as to why putting your toes out activates the adductors. Squatting with valgus puts the abductor function of the glutes on stretch

You just gotta lift in your strongest and most stable position. You get good at how you train. I'm the opposite, I just have to go knees out and toes waaaayyy out because my hips work that way. On leg press too, I'm the biggest manspreader if I wanna go deep and stretch the quads. Yeah I get a lot of adductors, but at least I don't have to worry about training those more than I already do. And before you imagine an equipped Westside shallow box squat with 180 degree legs, my stance is actually not very wide. We're all built different.

Opions about matt wenning squat, he doenst like this the knee postions. His opions why the knee coming in because the quadtricep wanne overpowerd the hip/hamstring

I have my take on this and real world experience of elite athletes too. It depends on what type of squats you are talking about. Powerlifters, with their low bar squat and higher hip position is going to be very different from weightlifters with their high bar squats. With a high bar squat, your knee is much more forward compared to a low bar squat, as a result there is more sheer force on the knee. In a high bar squat, if you do not push your knees out, your ability to use your glute is diminished. This is not the case with the low bar as hip is higher and your knees are back. I have seen many elite weightlifters including my own son suffer from knee issues. Through working with a world famous movement specialist, we have been able to eliminate the knee pain primarily by changing his squats with wider stance and opening up the hip and knees out more.

Dr. Norton, I've always wondered if the mechanics might be that when you're approaching a maximal effort (where this valgus phenomenon will be more pronounced) all of your hip extensors are firing nearly as hard as they can... and that would include both your adductors and your glutes. While both extend your hips, they are opposing muscles for the purpose of hip abduction and adduction. That reasoning would tend to support the "weak glute (med)" talking point. What do you think? Gobbledygook?

Feel like the conventional fear is cuz knee cave tends to be an indicator of a weakness in the squat increasing the potential for injury

4:54 alternative or maybe parallel hypothesis, but rather than muscular activation could knee valgus simply be an effort by the body to shorten the muscle to produce more force, akin to tilting forward many do with squats but with the advantage of not shifting the load to a fundamentally weaker position? Squats are not my expertise by any means, and I essentially teach athletes when resistance training to work on developing a consistent movement pattern and modify with potential cues which may help this be consistent, but seems novice lifters with squats will tilt forward because the legs can begin to extend without moving the load.

I'm sorry they TORE THEIR QUADs??? Jesus christ

Half my weight. Is a woman. Squats as much as I do! What a champ!

Look up Burlesque bump. It makes me laugh😂

That's interesting. I have exactly the opposite thing going. I have to angle my feet and legs out quite a bit, or my knees will start to hurt. It just goes to show, one size does not fit all.

May I ask how this relates for cueing for older adults or untrained/sedentary individuals who have knee valgus in ordinary gait/stance. I coach knees out. Many have arthritis or meniscus issues. Your advice would be welcome. Also as a long time weight lifting trainer my original coach now 90 years old taught us that the back position was up to us as long as we were pain free, generating enough power and it was within lift rules obviously this was Olympic lifting so it may be different for power. Thanks for your content Healthy Regards from London.. Thanks in advance.

Before having watched at all, my guess is: It depends. (Mostly on your anatomy, some people are more comfortable with a wider stance others with a narrower)

Oooh, just in time right before I do my squats. Thank you, Layne!!

I'm a 51 year old dude, weighing in at 150 lbs at 5'11¨. My deadlift looks more like a stiffed-legged deadlift after weights reaching the knees, but I'm still able to pull 440 for 5 reps. And do stiffed-legged deadlifts with 375 for 10. No pain or problems whatsoever. It sure looks like shit when I watch it on videos, but it feels "natural" for me when doing it.

You forgot lunges, they are amazing glute builders and there’s no knees out action there

What about hip hinges? I've always seen the deadlift as an internal torque movement, so I don't get the "knees out" cue while deadlifting. The femurs should internally rotate in a hinge

Nippard has knee valgus. He’s doing fine.

FOOOR THEE ALGORITHMMMM ✅

Godlayne

Please can you link your video on the association of deadlifting with a round back and injury risk?

Its this thing called nuance

makes sense tbh cause glutes will be more stretched with knees closer

For the algorithm!!!!!

This happens to me. I never worried abt injury. But as far as strength goes, would it make sense to just use a closer stance so the knees are closer to where theyre gonna end up?

Is there a definition of "strong glutes"? Perhaps relative to body weight or other lifts?

For the algorithm

Dr Layne i have the opposite problem, knee varus. Which movement do you suggest to build my legs?

I have no idea, but I’m commenting anyway 👍

Check Tia Clair Toomey. Her knees are cave in on all of her squats.

You don't see a whole lot of people saying "you must squat with perfect form" who have much of a 1RM... LOL (and also don't understand how "good form" looks different with different levers)

Is it possible to have knee valgus during an RDL? lol

Essence of video is on point; form doesn’t need to be perfect/people have their own unique movement patterns. However, I don’t think we can conclude any degree of knee varus/valgus is entirely safe. Just because it’s very difficult to generate enough displaced force to acutely injure the knee doesn’t mean it wouldn’t predispose an individual to more chronic issues. Loading knee valgus does disproportionately put tensile force through MCL and compressive force through lateral compartment, which repetitively over time is probably not great. I don’t think Layne contradicted this point, he just didn’t really touch on whether this data can be extrapolated to chronic knee or joint pain

Starting strength zealots triggered.

For the algorithm!

This is great because I really don’t the like the “perfect, only way” people.

thank you

I'll see what Mcgill and Hatfield have to say.

he said "big booty" teehee

The perfect form crowd should meet Kyriakos Grizzly IRL and school him on how to lift weights!

FTA

But why do i get painful and sore knees after squatting only .. because i thought it was down to me forcing my knees out, but now if we are saying knee position doesn't matter , now im lost.

Is there optimal squat form if you have pre-existing ACL injuries? Even just squats without weights? Or do you just find your pain threshold and try to avoid that?

3 the algo

Not surprising. When the knees cave, the glute stretches around the hips more. More lengthened=more muscle growth

fta

So can I stop worrying about my butt wink now?

Hail the algorythm

Oh it's going to get heated on the 'gram once the haters see this, cue the "but his form...." statements begin to fly even though none of them have a name on a kinesiology paper

This is controversial! Love it

The knees in the squat, well I don't remember seeing anyone doing it that way at elite level and I've lifted at state national and international level "weightlifting" not powerlifting probably only due to the way we've bin trained, or maybe because weightlifting do proper full squats and our ass almost touches the ground do that with knees together lol. I guess it wouldn't matter if it genetically suits you. But my coach who was a gold medallist and when i trained at the national institute of sport would have killed me if I rounded my back. I've also never seen an Olympic lifter round their back. I really don't care what a couple of studies say it's crap in weightlifting atleast. Possibly because of the clean which is why we do pulls and shrugs. Dead lifts may be different story all together but it's been so drummed into my head over a billion clean pulls cleans and shrugs that I'd never ever change to doing that. Yeh I know totally different sports. Do what works for you I guess.