Bishop John Shelby Spong: Why Atonement Theology will Kill Christianity 

“God is not a noun that must be defined. God is a verb that must be lived!”

I am a former Pentecostal minister, out of the pulpit 30 years, and away from Christianity almost as long. I am atheist and no longer have a need of a god or a savior. But I appreciate Bishop Spong's message in this video. It was his book "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" that helped me leave Christianity and religion altogether. I support the concept of religious freedom, and I would love it if more so-called "Christians" would hear what Bishop Spong is saying and learn to apply it. Christianity has to change or die.

So glad this man can still speak to our hearts, although he’s passed away. Let those who have ears listen. ❤

This is outstanding. This man here basically promotes love, self-enlightenment and human progression. A spiritually evolved human being automatically becomes a human being dropping selfishness, envy and lust. Which means no more backstabbing, no more corruption and no more war. A peaceful world. That's what he's preaching. And that's what every priest, agnostic, atheist, religious or nonreligious person in this world should preach.

I just heard this man for the first time tonight. He is a true Christian. No robot fundamentalist garbage coming from his words. Thank you for posting this.

Jack Spong speaks truth that most Christians need to hear and then embrace. Unfortunately, it will probably be many many years before the tide shifts to embrace his message.

A thousand times Amen! Finally a Bishop who truly gets it all. Love is the only way!

Wow. He makes the most sense of any Christian I've ever met. Thank you for your wisdom, sir.

Bishop Spong, you are a continuing source of education and inspiration for me. I'm always drawn to your lectures.

Hi Rachel. Hope you’re doing well. I’m very happy you are asking the important questions and I want to emphasize Hod embraces your feelings, questions, and adjustments to your beliefs. It’s natural and a sign of maturity to ask these questions. Some people are so terrified and threatened by every “other” outside their tribe that they will project their fear of nuance on you with veiled threats of God’s abandonment of you - and of course it’s your own fault because you were given the offer (shake-down) of Salvation theology. But many Christians will embrace you with all your doubts and questions - most of all God, the Father, who rejoices that you’re interested enough to ask. When I was pretty ready to walk away from Christianity some 35 years ago, my decision was based on the tribal egotism of fundamentalists who have the pretense to define God and Jesus to everyone else - especially Christians that ask difficult questions. I find literalism intellectually dishonest and I know many of them agree but keep it to themselves. Imagine my surprise when I stumbled across one of Bishop John Shelby Spong’s first books RESCUING THE BIBLE FROM FUNDAMENTALISM. It changed my life, brought me closer to God and my understanding of what Jesus was getting at. I’ve read a lot of his books and watched lots of debates and talks he has given that are now posted to RU-vid. I find this one particularly excellent at presenting an understanding of Christianity that stopped me from throwing out baby Jesus with the bath water. It’s all good for thought and your journey is yours, but through my life I’ve learned some things and said to myself “I wish someone had told me about this years ago”…So here you are. I hope it helps your understanding of Christianity. Never forget: the Loving Father and creator of the universe might just be wise enough to love you even deeper because of, not in spite of, your sincere questions. If you can glean one nuggets from this, you’re a little more ahead than before. Love you and be gentle on yourself. 😊🙏❤️😊😁.

In the experiences I've had with Christianity, I have always had so many questions, but no answers. The literal interpretations of the bible have always seemed so ridiculous to me. I'm sure they are to many people. So you're faced with either just accepting what the church tells you or not believing at all. Bishop Spong's message spoke to my heart and brought tears to my eyes, this explanation makes perfect sense to me. This brings a confirmation of God to me and an understanding of real Christianity. Thank you so much!

I used to detest this man. I saw him destroying the Episcopal Church I loved. Now that Im older I just see him as a man trying to figure out a way that Christianity may remain relevant and helpful to out lives.

Although I'm agnostic, I love watching Bishop Spong's lectures and debates. He is truly a wise man. He handed James White his ass in their debate about homosexuality.

Sounds dramatic, but this lecture changed my life a few years ago. I will always love Bishop Spong. RIP

Astoundingly important message !!

most honest bishop I've heard

RIP Bishop John Shelby Spong. Just found out he passed away in September after doing some simple research. I also just found out he was an Episcopalian, the denomination I'm seriously considering joining. A few minutes in, I can tell he is of sound theology.

I'm so humbled by this message... Thank you ❤

Here is a partial list of Penal Substitutionary Atonement problems: 5. Basic logic tells us that a complete payment cancels forgiveness. You cannot forgive a debt that has already been paid, and you do not need to pay a debt that has been forgiven. Forgiveness is granted because a debt has NOT been paid, not after the payment has been made! 6. Forgiveness that can be bought or sold is not true forgiveness. If you think that you or a third party can purchase genuine forgiveness, you do not understand forgiveness! 7. We humans are able to forgive others when they sin against us. To claim that God cannot do a good thing that we can do is to make us more moral than God. 8. PSA’s "infinite justice” claim has God incapable of truly forgiving us without first getting a proxy payment by murder and blood. How can that be genuine forgiveness? 9. If someone says, “I forgive you,” you assume it is done right then, not secretly projecting it into a nebulous future when a payment will eventually be made by someone else. Secretly projecting the act of forgiving into the distant future would be considered deceptive. God is not a deceiver for forgiving people before Christ died. 10. God said many times that He would forgive, and He forgave (past tense), long before Jesus was born. Many texts could be listed. The following are just a few of these: “If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin.” 2 Chronicles 7:14 “I acknowledged my sin to you, and I did not cover my iniquity; I said, “I will confess my transgressions to the LORD,” and you forgave the iniquity of my sin.” Psalm 32:5 “You forgave the iniquity of your people; you covered all their sin.” Psalm 85:2 “LORD our God, you answered them; you were to Israel a forgiving God, though you punished their misdeeds.” Psalm 99:8 NIV “Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love.” Micah 7:18 “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.” Isaiah 55:7 11. Jesus did not seem to think that he was going to make a payment to God for the sins of humanity. Even while on the cross He did not speak as if he was making a payment when he said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing” (Lk 23:34). Jesus did not say, “Father, wait until I am finished paying for their sins, then you can forgive them.” 12. Every example of forgiveness we have from Jesus shows forgiveness in the normal human sense, not in some unheard-of future forgiveness, transfer, imputation, payment, or third-party justice. “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors...for if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses...” Matthew 6:12, 14-15 “And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.” Mark 11:25 (See also Matthew 9:2-8, 18:21-35, Luke 5:20, 6:37, 7:47-48, 11:4, 15:11-32.) 13. A literal payment requires a literal transfer and a literal recipient of that payment. How can a death (an action, not a substance) be a literal payment? Who collected this payment? 14. If God has been paid in full for our sins, then why does He still demand that we stop sinning and live right, and even have wrath and threaten judgment for disobedience? If Jesus paid it all, God got what He wanted. 15. Would not a payment for sin be a type of indulgence payment, a bribe to ignore sin and to issue a pardon? A blood sacrifice as a payment to a god is a pagan idea, which is why God ordered the Old Testament people many times to stop their sacrifices - they began treating sacrifices as if they were indulgences, and that stinks to God. Ps. 40:6, 51:16, Jer. 6:20, Is. 1:11-18, 1 Samuel 15:22, Hosea 6:6, Micah 6:6-8, Amos 5:22. (The God of the Bible is relational, and sacrifices were supposed to be a token of this relationship, not a payment to get Him to change.) For more on this topic, see the book “Atonement and Reconciliation” by Kevin George.

Ignorance, hate and imoralty will kill this iron age cult

Rest In Peace, Bishop Spong

Great talk

Exceptional Christian. Excellent talk.

Wow the amount of faith it’ll take to roll with this is even more exhausting.

This man is full of the holy spirit. He speaks the truth.

A brave and honest man, one who dares to confront his once-held spiritual beliefs.

I respect this white man so much!!!! i can't stop listening to him, he's so amazing!!!!. love him!!!!,,

Fellow homosexuals, we are just fine. I left religion in 1980, at 20, and never looked back. Love yourselves, and honor the path you've been chosen for. Within you is your guidance. Meditate in stillness, and your path will be illuminated. To ease your mind, Jesus NEVER mentions anything about homosexuality, never. Nor his brother, James. Nor the disciple whom Jesus loved, John. Nor Simon Peter. Only Paul does, and we are lacking historical context, but I can assure you that homosexuality is not a sin. Being YOU, at your essence, is always good. YOU are your path. Rejoice in it! In Jewish Scripture, Sodom is often mistakenly associated with homosexuality, likely because of bigotry by people who are hypocrites. Scripture says in Jeremiah 23.14 that their sins were adultery, deceit, injustice and unrepentance; and in Ezekiel 16.49 that their sins were pride and arrogance, and that they lacked compassion. Homosexuality is never mentioned. As for the laws of Moses, man shall not lie with another man, well, this one is simple. Moses lists many other laws there. Let's see if the hypocrites observe THOSE OTHER laws: It's an abomination to eat shellfish. It's an abomination to be tattooed. It's an abomination to eat pork. It's an abomination for a husband to have sex with his wife within the seven day period after she menstruates. I could go on, but you get the picture. I would recommend that you not associate with people who discriminate against homosexuals. They are dyed-in-the-wool hypocrites. Love yourselves, and love others. It is this that fulfills the law, not being this or that. Paul is the one who says: The kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness, peace and joy. To the pure, all things are pure. All things are lawful to me, but I will not be mastered by anything. And Jesus himself said: It is not what goes into a man that defiles him, but what proceeds out of his heart that defiles him. Be pure of heart, and be yourself! Love and Light!

Christianity as practiced requires that one does not ask very simple questions and accept the very simple answers that naturally follow.

Even though I often disagree with Dr. Spong, I love that he makes me think!

Evidence that we evolved is huge. 95 percent Christians accept this now. There is no evidence we fell from grace and that we were kicked out of paradise by a bad tempered God. It is time to enjoy and love life if possible. Chances are this is the only life you will have.

a really important point

Great stuff

I absolutely love this. Thank you.

This is an amazing sermon. Inspired and infused with the divine that can exist within each of us.

thank you for sharing, greetings from El Salvador!

Good lesson my question would be if we don’t need a savior how is one made righteous before a holy God

Biologists are now saying that many of the higher mammals can be observed exhibiting behaviours that are consistent with higher types of consciousness than previously thought. In great apes it’s suggested that self-awareness may be present.

Bishop Spong just destroyed central doctrine of Christianity (damnation/salvation). Good job.

Great man speaking at a great church. Diamonds in fields of mud. Love you too, Roger and team.😊

People did quote the Bible to justify slavery and segregation. And if they thought they were right to do so then others can find justifications to condemn and subordinate those whom they disdain, find disgusting or otherwise deem unworthy. Those who entitle themselves to see other people as unworthy will dimiss Spong's words with retorts that seem to them and their fellow travelers smart. As if self-serving were the definition of smart.

Bishop Spong, (may his tribe increase), speaks of worshipping God properly by loving others beyond self. The word, " worship" is a form of idolatry and our beloved bishop may be misapplying it to God. Only the god of the bible demands worship....so badly that the first three of the Ten Commandments are all about himself. Today's God neither asks or demands such worship Perhaps, Bishop Spong should just say: If you truly love God, love others above yourself......as a suggestion, not a command.

I'm glad Spong pushes Christianity in the direction of humanism, but I am amazed at the mental gymnastics he performs to convince himself that what he's talking about is Christianity at all. In fact, he makes the most sense to me if I assume that he's a pragmatic humanist who figures he can do more good from the inside than from the outside--i.e., pushing Christianity toward rational empathy as an Episcopalian priest rather than as an easily dismissed humanist or atheist. It also seems to me that his supernatural claims add nothing to his message; if anything, they detract from it, in much the same way that he feels common Christian beliefs rob people of their humanity. E.g., why is our love for each other and for ourselves insufficient? Why are God's hopes and aspirations for us better than our hopes and aspirations for each other and for ourselves? Spong's god is just another way for us to project the best parts of humanity to something outside ourselves, thus committing the very error Spong derides in this talk. It seems to be that Spong has gone as far as his religious tether will let him wander, but he just won't break free, for whatever reason--and that's sad. For all his rhetoric, he won't accept his own humanity--nor let the rest of us take credit for ours. I wonder how much of his reticence--at worst--is linked to the self-worth with which he thinks his frock imbues him.

here i am living in 2017, how I wish he were right about Donald Trump not being apart of the future.

An awful lot of people here seem to have missed the whole point of Bishop Spong's lecture. I don't know why that should surprise me since they also have proven, with their pretentious, nasty commentary, that they missed Jesus' point as well.

I am learning a lot from Spong about how to put things more gently.

This was interesting.

This poor man is replying against God. He will not get away with it

If Jesus spoke about redemption and atonement, I'd probably put my trust in that since He is our Lord and savior. What good does it do to call yourself a Christian when you don't believe the words of Christ? Jesus performed miracles, and perhaps we weren't there, but the gospels were written by men who were willing to lay their own lives down, and many of them did. People that don't understand the bible only need to believe that Jesus died, sacrificed His own blood as a ransom for the sins of many. He died and rose again and is alive forever. If you don't believe that He sacrificed His life for our sins, you are not a Christian believer.

Upon discovering I was God, it scared the sh*t out of me. Through all those prayers I was talking to myself. Answering myself. Realizing that I didn't have the power to get everything I'd wanted.

This is well worth a listen.

Thank you Violet I liked it and you are a good woman

Bishop Spong is writing a new god, jesus, and bible. We do need a new, improved god. Bible can be thrown away or else its dirt strongly scrubbed!

Brilliant

This was amazing!!!!

Total nonsense. Christianity is shrinking the more it tries to "get with the times".

What an amazing teacher.

I love John Shelby Spong and don't care if Christianity dies. Why should I care if a dumb religion dies if every human being dies?

It would be interesting to have John and Francesca Stavrakopoulou discuss some of these ideas.

If the bible is mostly untrue, then how does he maintain the central idea that god exists at all or that jesus was more than just a man?

I have an interesting question. Why did not jesus stay here in his resurrected state so there would not be so many divisions inguisitions etc. Should not evidence overuse faith especially when eternity depends on this. Seems jesus should of realized this He could of become a great planetary counsilor

Born in sin --- all have a fallen nature. Jesus gives us a BRAND new nature that cannot sin. God does as HE will. Sorry you don't like it 😢

so is the child born sinful or does he get born into a family believes in a sinful birth? if the child is takes or receives birth in an atheist family or another religion, is the child still born sinful? and will he or she remain in sin till eternity? or are there different Gods with different religion?

I grew up in a very fundamental home, church, and Christian school and, fortunately, the indoctrination and conditioning wasn't as strong as my insatiable curiosity. I can appreciate why Bishop John Shelby Spong calls for an evolution of modern Christianity - it surely needs it. But I'm wondering, has he spoken or written about the sort of deeper, altruistic connection of Christianity to other major religions and philosophies such as Buddhism for example? I just recently ordered about 4 or 5 of his books (waiting for them to arrive) and I don't believe any of them cover that topic. I'm very curious what he thinks about that. Any leads or info on that would be much appreciated. While I enjoy science, I also enjoy the mysticism lol. So, if someone were to ask me to be technical with my approach to "God", I'd say it is certainly not a monotheistic/anthropomorphic approach but rather a more pantheistic approach. Because, even though it may be interpreted as confusing the creation as the creator/creative force, there's no way you can look into the eyes of another being or even at a rock and not see the divine.

4:25 Donald Trump not part of our future? That was wishful 🔥 thinking given he said this before Trump's term! But hopefully he's now right!

This guy is slandering God. Read the bible and compare. He preaches a false gospel. " in due time Christ died for the ungodly."

If you were to ask an "average" Christian what the basic tenants of the Christian faith were, Bishop Spong would denounce almost all of them. His beliefs and teachings are antithetical to virtually every mainstream Christian denomination. Why this man was an Episcopal bishop, I have no idea; his beliefs are more in line with Unitarianism than anything else. He isn't reforming the Christian faith; he's abandoning it. And it pains me to see people celebrate him as an authority and inspiration inside the Church. Although it shouldn't surprise me that atheists and humanists are more receptive to a message that is fundamentally non-Christian.

I do think we have to lay some blame for the doctrine of original sin sin on the Apostle Paul and his letters, especially Romans.

I am watching this in 2020 and Donald Trump is an awful President and is bringing out the worst in this country.

Sprong is a highly intelligent, deep thinking person, with a wonderful ability to see reality. A 21st century man who deserves respect. He reveals the truth. He's just one step away from atheism.

His entire question was begged, coming from presuppositions that are postmodern, and he argues his position from there as if it’s already true. Then, he goes subtly ad hominem, And conjures up the bogeyman names of fundamentalist and evangelical…

I have to strongly disagree with the premise which this case sits upon. We do not portray God as a blood hungry deity requiring sacrifice to forgive. That may be Spongs understanding but that certainly isn’t what I was taught. I was taught that God is holy and so awesome that sin is not allowed in His presence for the very sinner would be obliterated from existence (like Moses being effected by the burning bush). I was taught that sin requires punishment and unpunished sin is unholy (who would disagree that a murderer be free to live without penalty?) I was taught that God loved us so much that He had to supply a way for us to withstand in His presence by making a means to whereby our sins could be punished and we would be made Holy and blameless in that presence. I was taught that Jesus made that way, that Jesus is that truth and that anyone who desires to be in the presence of their creator must have their sins be put through that crucible.

It also shows that the vote for the Presidency has never been "the choice of the majority'".

I have to disagree with Bishop Song about Trump, Trump is the future, not the irrelevant past. For without this type of President, this Nation is heading to a true hell.

So did Spong believe in an afterlife?

When I was about 8 years old, my mind kept circling around and around about the fall of Adam and Eve. God had made them, and they were perfect in every way. But if that was so, they wouldn't have been tempted to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. A perfect person wouldn't be swayed like that. So they weren't really perfect, were they. I asked my teacher (a nun) that, and got my ears pinned back. It was evil to question anything about the Bible, and so on and so on. I've always kept my questions to myself, but they were there. Bishop Spong has answered so many of my questions. Thanks!

It is with utmost reluctance that I disagree with our beloved and revered Bishop Spong on the topic of consciousness which he assigns solely to the animal kingdom. The essence of consciousness is vibration and permeates all of creation in varying degrees of frequency.

Amen

God HAD mercy already. No need to keep asking. He gave HIS only son to pay our ENTIRE sin debt . Thank you Jesus because I have perfect peace in HIM

Again my question has not been answered. If Jesus really resurrected why did not he stay here so we all would be on the same page especially if eternity depends on this. Let's not use free will as an explanation with they. I have heard this explanation too much. Many then will not benefit from this supposed salvation. Why hide and seek?

There are models for the Atonement which affirm God's non-violent love rather than humanity's guilt. The Atonement qua Atonement does not need to be thrown out with the bathwater, only penal substitutionary atonement. Christ IS our sacrifice and substitute, but one which enters into solidarity with us, not a legal contract which saves us from the wrath of the Father, but a manifested love which inaugurates a new Kingdom of grace on earth.

We quote the Bible, A Jew could not enslave a Jew but...'the occupation of the Palestinians.'

Love Spong! ... AND a needed caveat. Not all forms of at-one-ment theory are toxic or to be rejected. Many progressive Christians embrace certain forms of it. See: online article, "Atoning For Bad Theology Both Kinds: www.patheos.com/blogs/rogerwolsey/2018/10/atoning-for-bad-theology-both-kinds/ - Roger Wolsey, author, "Kissing Fish: christianity for people who don't like christianity"

He forgot to tell how some nonmaterial as consciousness could emerge from matter. Never the les I fully agree on his speech. BUT there IS good and evil or should we call it darkness: The killing of one another has for some reason up til now been a common "sport" . The decay of our bodies and of nature does stand in opposition to the learning from many Near death experiences and the feeling and glimpses of what we call the eternal of universal laws . Jesus WAS a savior -but what he saved was not us from our sins but the fallen himself from the darkness ...(For the darkness IS a power and the world was intended to evolve in another way!) -and it was for HIM that Christ was send to pray. And then to tell all the things you tell John Shelby Spong. Thank you!! The hole story is to find in "Towards the Light" published in Denmark by Michael Agerskov 1920.

Keep on if you have the energy

This is not a church, this political club!

Come on Shelby, you are putting priests out of a job.

I heard Mr. Spong say, "To announce the nature of God, is Idolatrous" Then, he himself continued to speak about Gods nature of love. Which Mr. Spong's picks and chooses bible verses, that agree with his own mind. Instead of transforming his mind, with the renewal of God's word. He also considers himself more of a 'mystist, deep down'. His belief system is so chaotic & illogical. (The source I heard him say this, was on him debating James White regarding homosexuality.

So-called "atonement theology" will long outlast Bishop Spong.

AtOneMent TransCludes Atonement 🙏

if you really think about it, Jesus didn't really "die" for our sins like Christianity says he did. If he really did rise from the dead (which I see no evidence for) he could've just stayed here on earth, but no. He just went back up to heaven. If you ask me he's doing much better than he ever did on earth. So stop feeling guilty all the time. Not to be arrogant but I think I kinda debunked the atonement theology.

The fellow is preaching a Gospel of too many Straw Men.

So consciousness arises from matter? Seriously? This is far from having been proven conclusively. There’s still the hard problem of consciousness that has yet to be solved. The position that matter is fundamental is hardly Christian, but is actually scientific materialism.

Decoding is back to humanity.

I agreed at the beginning about substitution, but his understanding about the gospel is false. Christ released us from bondage to sin that we may follow him in love and purity of heart. Sin is transgression of the law. Read the bible and understand how to live. Sin not my child and walk in love.

Less than 100K watched it.

He was doing well up until he got to self-consciousness. I might bring elephants, whales and dolphins to his attention.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. The man who doesn't understand his own sin, can't understand the Gospel.

Anti-prophetic statement just before the 5 minute mark...re: Trump.

"In perpetual orbit". Lol! R.I.H. Bishop Spong!💐🌺🌼🙏🏽