This is Bishop Spong's first lecture in the "Future of the Progressive Church" conference held on August 3, 2013 at the Community Christian Church in Springfield, MO.
Wonderful presentation. Bishop Spong is a refreshing voice for all of humanity, not just Christians. When people begin to hear that we are not born in sin, we are not inherently "guilty", we'll see goodwill and right human relations taking hold where suspicion and hatred reined before.
Spong doesn't understand the doctrine of atonement at all. He ignores every verse of the Bible that speaks about it. .... so of course he is going to get it wrong.
God is speaking to us all the time, if you learn to quiet your mind you will hear. Those of you who are slamming this guy with rude comments are clearly living in a box and are just proving that he is right; right that religion has taught you hate; hate towards anyone that has any ideas that are different than your own. The world is comprised of many different religions whom all think they are the one true religion, for you Christians out there, if you were born a Muslim, you would think Muslim was the one true religion and vise-versa. John Spong has learned to quiet his mind and ask the God that lives within himself, we contain this knowledge inside each and every one of us, we are the ones who know that bigotry, enslavement, inequality, sexism, prejudice and stereotyping are wrong because we feel them deep inside of ourselves. Interestingly enough, they are all things supported in the bible of the old testament. Religion has done nothing good for humanity, if it had, we would all be getting along, we would not place people of authority over ourselves resulting in whole countries suffering needlessly because of it, we would realize that no ONE person is more important than another, that differences are just exactly that, just differences and it's the things in common that we need to be paying attention to, things like our planet and our health. Leave the fear behind and wake up!
ohw, omg Holmes, Sherlock Holmes no shit...What kind of enlightenment are you going to provide to the people who are "sleeping" and need to wake up? What basis? spong base, God base, Quran base, Bible base? Universal base...Equality cannot be really attain...someone is just gonna be better and going to use people for their personal attainment
Edward Pierce Funny thing Eddy...I bet you are going to recommend the religion YOU were raised in or culturally surrounded by. There's a surprise... don't be so annoyingly obtuse.
no, no absolutely not sir...I'm just saying that this guy spong revamp and revise the basis of a belief not his belief. Like making something that exist long ago and altering and turning into his cognoscente and maven.
Not at all... you have heard of the reformation? A time when xtianity went thru a regrowth and modification that allowed it to literally change with the times. That is indeed what is needed with the islamic faith... moderates need to transform it with an islamic spring and reform it's harsher aspects to fit it with the more developed ethical/social paradigm of our times. Sorry for misjudging you... peace out. :)
Saying you're guilty of being born in sin is no different than saying you're guilty of being born with 2 arms. I had no control of either. How can I be "sorry" for it ?
It's garbage and child abuse to say "you're born in sin" to ANYONE!! In the world to come, the future, anyone who tells someone they are "born in sin" or "you're going to hell" will be IMPRISONED for bullying and fraud on the public, they will be required at their trial to PROVE their threats are true or be sentenced for felony intimidation and fraud on the public!!! Thereafter upon release they will be on permanent parole against ever saying that again!!
Hello. I have something important to tell you: The bible makes it clear that God is holy. This holy God holds a perfect moral standard. Sadly, we have all fallen way short of that standard(Romans 3:23). The penalty for sin/imperfection is Hell(Revelation 21:8). Thankfully the bible also says that God is rich in mercy and grace. That is why He sent His perfect son to die on a cross to save us from our sin. You and I broke God's law but Jesus paid our fine. Then Jesus rose from the dead, 3 day later, thus defeating death. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
@@rstevewarmorycom Welcome to North Korea disguised as liberal state. I guess Churchill saying that Hitler will one day attack them should have been imprisoned as he couldn’t prove this and many people didn’t believe him
@@micahhenley589 No, that's all fiction and garbage. Your jeebus never existed. Nobody else wrote shit about him for 50 YEARS. The world didn't end, and he never came back. There is NO evidence he or his disciples were real, nothing except the allegorical bible "mark" story 50 years later written in nearly the same style as Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet". There are NO death notices, no family remembrances, no temple or Roman record of any crucifixion, never happened. It's believed that the author of the "mark" story wrote it as a take-off on Paul's delusional jesus archangel cult, or that that cult was hjacked by a cabal of rabbis trying to revive Judaism after the temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 CE around the Joshua/Yeshua hero of the book of Daniel. The only reason christianity grew from a tiny cult was Constantine and his insane mother, who was a christian. He funneled pagan temple money to her and when he died, Theodocius took over, who was a member of that cult and he made all other religions ILLEGAL, on pain of losing your lands, wives, children, and your life. So people brainwashed their kids with the liturgy just so they would not be KILLED!! Christianity was imposed on Europe by the sword. Originally christianity was NOT big or popular.
Friends, I have something important to tell you: The bible makes it clear that God is holy. This holy God holds a perfect moral standard. Sadly, we have all fallen way short of that standard(Romans 3:23). The penalty for sin/imperfection is Hell(Revelation 21:8). Thankfully the bible also says that God is rich in mercy and grace. That is why He sent His perfect son to die on a cross to save us from our sin. You and I broke God's law but Jesus paid our fine. Then Jesus rose from the dead, 3 day later, thus defeating death. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
There's a reason secularism is gaining such a foothold: people are sick of the self-righteous crap spewed by people like Franklin Graham, Rick Warren, and so many conservative politicians who are posing as moral authorities. Thank God for Bishop Spong and people like him!
You seem to be lamenting the spread of Secularism........ and praising Spong....... ......but...... he is a secularist. His branch of theology is considered Secular Theology. He isn't just a part of the problem, but its leader.
+Joshua Frye Actually, I've made the transition from liberal Christian to atheist. I am pleased by the spread of secularism. Bishop Spong is a great man.... but I disagree with him that Christianity needs reformation. It needs to die.
@@jajohnson7809 Reformation would have to be so radical in that it would have to turn so many concepts on their heads. This process would eat at the foundation and the theology - complete with doctrine and dogmas - would collapse like a house of cards. The churches and especially their leaders know this but prefer being in denial. So I think reformation won't be possible - at least not in a substantial way. So all of the Abrahamic religions especially, will not be able to make it unless they morph into some completely different system of religion one that is liberating as well as empowering and not keeping people dependent and unworthy. All the best!!
This man's (and others' like him) intellectual honesty makes me think that maybe not entire Christianity is worth to be thrown to the dustbin of history once and for all...
JSSpong has become my mentor in re-thinking traditional evangelical christianity. As fate would have it I met JSP in the late 80s in Newark, NJ as a contractor working in his office building. He greeted me I found him a tall, friendly, engaging, warm clergyman, little did I know that years later what new perspectives regarding religion would help me understand theological religious questions I had starting as a child I would get reading the books of John Shelby Spong.
Indeed, you have a place in this man's version of Christianity. A place amongst the heretics and blasphemers. Bishop Spong denied all basic, orthodox Christian doctrines, right down to man's fallen nature and the need for salvation by Jesus. Spong is a total heretic and worse that Richard Dawkins. At least Dawkins is open about his denial of Christianity. Spong does the same in churches, parading as a minister wearing a collar.
John Spong is listed as 85 now....and this talk was in 2013 so he would have been 81 then! He's still very sharp for a guy in his 80's! I know Bishop Spong had a stroke recently but is recovering.
While I remain an agnostic, I love Shelby's slant on Jesus. And see Jesus as one of the most important figures in history. And sadly, the most abused and misused.
This is a great speech, great outlook with common sense. I love when people say theyvare god fearing, why fear God, love God. I once heard a story of a student asking his teacher, teacher why did god create atheists the teacher responded because atheist do good things out of the kindness of their hearts not because they believe someone is watching them in other words do good things because its the right thing to do not because your being watched. Integrity
Bishop Spong is a great leader and his presentation is awesome. I already read his book Gentile Heresy. I plan to read more. I wish I heard him many years ago. He hits the nail on the head and puts the Bible back into the context of what was intended. He also dispels the myth of original sin and the concept of our worthlessness. I hope there are more like him with the kahunas to speak out against the garbage that is traditional Christianity.
Dan, your words ring with truth. The truth that hasn't been taught in most western religions. A Course in Miracles is the path I choose to follow today 2022. It's a deep deep dive into truth of who we are. We are all children of God and our inheritance is Love. God has no reason to forgive any of us, for he's never condemned any of us. A Course in Miracles is a pathway out of this earthly hell. Love has no religion 🙏
All I hope for is that Christianity as we know it fades away. Believe it or not the people who control the Church these days continue to show conditional love which was something that Christ was not about. The Love of Jesus Christ was unconditional which meant that it was reserved for anyone meaning beyond the reasoning of race color or creed. I would ask anyone going to a Church to refrain from tithing for at least one year so you can see if they want you there for your money or for you to take part in there congregation. The Church has plenty of money as it is and they continue to make fun of the poor and sick. They are behind big corporations that make people sick in hopes of getting them to go and pay tithings because the system as we know it is falling apart and the people who are supposed to help people continue to try and make it hard on people.
So refreshing and intellectually stimulating. Spong is a true thought leader, one that isn't going for the popular vote and spends his life refraining from dumbing down those in the pew.
I see Rev Spong much as you do. Being a person of faith as well as a person who thinks is often a challenge, and even when the challenge is undertaken, navigating the path is an art. I love to listen to him and always learn something.
This is is why Hinduism has lasted and evolved and why people such as Bishop Shelby are smart to take elements of Asian religions it's the only way Christianity will thrive in the 21st.century world of Science and reason.
As a atheist, I often struggle with the question "Could I see myself dating a christian'..if a female agreed more along the lines of this guy, I think I could...
Even though the language he uses sometimes is a bit new-agey (mostly in other debates and such), his version of Christianity, and his reasons for why he left the old Christian doctrines, are way more relatable to me.
Shelby Spong is right. The doctrine of atonement was never taught by Jesus. It is in fact a misinterpretation of who we are. This is why some Christians attack evolution and people like Charles Darwin and Carl Sagan These were wonderful people. Original sin is not true.
You are mistaken. Atonement was absolutely taught by Jesus. John 3:16, John 1:29, Matthew 1:21, Mark 10:45.... there are many more, but I wanted to concentrate on the gospels.. even though the epistles of Paul are earlier. The gospel of atonement isn't why Christians attack evolution... many Christians do not attack Evolution at all, but see it as the method by which we were created.... they see evolution as guided by the hands of God.
@@opendoorgames6413 The fucking bible is FICTION, written ANONYMOUSLY so the author can't be questioned or blamed, and it's all connivance and lies by evil men. Jesus didn't exist, there is NO contemporary evidence that jesus or his disciples even existed!! Those stories were written ANONYMOUSLY again, 40 to 80 YEARS AFTER the jesus stories were inserted into phony history, just far enough into the past and anonymously so that they could NOT BE QUESTIONED!! The myth of jesus meek and mild is GARBAGE!! It was HE who invented HELL and torture FOREVER!! At least the OT let you die and sleep with your fathers!! ALL mutations have been PROVED by biomathematicians to be RANDOM in value and position in the genome, so there CAN BE *NO* SUCH "GUIDANCE"!! Believing a god guided Evolution is to TOTALLY MISUNDERSTAND EVOLUTION!!!
@@rstevewarmorycom For a start, I don't think you understand what the bible is. It is a library of books. We know the authors of every book of the New Testament and most of the authors of the old testament. There is plenty of evidence for the existence of Jesus and the Apostles. The Church is proof of their existence for a start - it didn't appear from nowhere. There is also historical records known as the Gospels and also the writing of Roman historians.
Frineds, I have something important to tell you: The bible makes it clear that God is holy. This holy God holds a perfect moral standard. Sadly, we have all fallen way short of that standard(Romans 3:23). The penalty for sin/imperfection is Hell(Revelation 21:8). Thankfully the bible also says that God is rich in mercy and grace. That is why He sent His perfect son to die on a cross to save us from our sin. You and I broke God's law but Jesus paid our fine. Then Jesus rose from the dead, 3 day later, thus defeating death. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
When I met JSS I was a young evangelical baptist minister, the son a a baptist pastor, born into and raised in orthodox evangelical christianity...but I always had many questions that I was afraid to ask for fear of "questioning" God's sovereignty. JSS has over the years helped me at least think logically regarding many of my questions.
Very good. If we sinned because we ate of the Fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, then it follows that to get back to that perfect creation in the Garden of Eden, we must get rid of Knowledge of Good and Evil or simply knowledge. Such is the aim of many false religions.
Good people do good things and bad people do bad things. But when a religion promotes the ideas like "Our Holy Book And Our God Can't Be Wrong", it makes good people do bad things. Such religions should be wiped out.
I believe JSS was speaking not to the matter of evil (acted out as sin) existing but is speaking to the myth that christian orthodox religion has created to perpetuate the the church's "controlling" influence in the minds of it's (the church) constituency. Universal guilt established by the christian orthodox church is the matter he addressed.
However it is not religion that starts hatred and war, it is the people. No matter what religion, Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Atheism, there will also people who hate and are violent. It because we are "human". If we wipe out all religion, nothing that many pursue would happen. There will still be wars, hatred, and genocide. We are human and we are not perfect no matter what we do.
@@peacelovejoy8786 The original definition of sin is to miss the mark. Jesus was the only sinless human to ever live. Paul said any violation of the law is enough to fall short of the Glory of the Lord. I dont know what you are guilty of, only you and God know that. The reason we need Christ is because he forgives and gives us the strength we don't have. I love you.
Thinking about what he says, the the teachings of the church have been controlling in the same was that bad romantic relationships can be. Controlling men, ( and no doubt women), love to make their partners feel inadequate and lacking. How sad that it's been so misused and bought so much grief and estrangement within the huamn family.
Dear Andrew,, I would respectfully suggest that you listen to this again. If you listen carefully you will understand that Mr Spong is simply revealing the errors of misinterpretation and lack of understanding of the Jesus story.
Some people really are evil worms...like school yard bullies and slave ship owners. But it's hard if you are supposed to think of yourself that way just cause you were born human. It was never something I could reconcile.
Maybe we feel guilt because sometimes we do guilty things worthy of guilt. Somethings people should feel guilty about are unfaithfulness, lying,adultery, abuse, pornography, gluttony, etc.
Nope, he's not. He barely quotes the Bible and doesn't believe in Jesus. He's basically an Atheist with the title of Bishop. He has set up this caricature of Christianity that isn't real, he takes the Bible out of context, usually to make fun or poke a joke, but never goes into what it means when a verse says. He gets soundly beat in his debate with William Lane Craig. It's easy in that Debate to see that he has NO substance to what he is saying.
Hello. I have something important to tell you: The bible makes it clear that God is holy. This holy God holds a perfect moral standard. Sadly, we have all fallen way short of that standard(Romans 3:23). The penalty for sin/imperfection is Hell(Revelation 21:8). Thankfully the bible also says that God is rich in mercy and grace. That is why He sent His perfect son to die on a cross to save us from our sin. You and I broke God's law but Jesus paid our fine. Then Jesus rose from the dead, 3 day later, thus defeating death. "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them." John 3:36
I'd like to listen to some of his sermons as a whole when I have more time. I haven't had the chance to do it as of yet. I've found people like him who I've thought were refreshing as a perspective on Christianity, only to find that they (inadvertently or otherwise) denied some of the fundamental truths that Christ taught. I'm hoping that once I have time to watch him more that he's not denying our guilt outright, just that we've way overdone it in order to control people.
I agree with him 100% that we have nothing to be guilty of. I started hearing about my sin and guilt as a child, even before I could do anything to be guilty of. He got me into listening to him more by expressing some of my guilt frustrations using my own words in many instance. "All have sin and come short of the glory of God?" When did you start hearing that. Don't believe it! is what he is saying and I agree with him. He uses science and evolution taught in academics to make him point. Love him.
And the tax-gatherer, having stood afar off, would not even the eyes lift up to the heaven, but was smiting on his breast, saying, God be propitious to me -- the sinner! The tax gatherer believed in the atonement and realised there was no other way to be put right with God. He gave glory to God because it is God who saves (Jesus means God saves) If Spong does not believe in the atonement, then he has sided with the Pharisee in the above story
Thank you Bishop Spong! Western religion definitely has it wrong! You are carrying the message of truth and it is a beautiful thing ✨ God is Love and nothing else ❤
MY view of Jesus was that he was not god. He was simply the Martin Luther King Jr of his age, who looked around and thought, something is not right here. And, just as MLK did, he rallied a group of people to stand against the norms of the day and just as MLK, the powers that be sought to kill him. Also just as in Jesus' time there were others sharing similar views but going about it differently such as Malcom X. Neither Jesus, nor MLK are divine, neither rose from the dead, both stood up against the norms of the majority, shared their dream of a better world and were killed for it. Throughout history, the is a common occurrence, Jesus crucified, MLK murdered and Nelson Mandela prisoned almost for life for standing up against the powers that existed at the time to declare that is a another way to live out lives. A better way to live our lives.
"you have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you," - Jesus Kkukkukkuukkukraaaazy. Who is this Jesus guy, telling people that God even loves their enemies!? Dan, you might enjoy taking a look at a RedLetter Bible... where anytime Jesus is quoted, it's outlined in Red.
Christianity which is full of metaphor has had great difficulty in helping the people to understand what the metaphor is representative of. If you have eyes to see and ears to hear the bible when read carefully does make sense but often needs to be looked back on to the original languages it was written in. Everything in the bible is about man and we are all man . The blood is our blood , the temple is our body . Sin refers to the orgasm not sex. We are We are capable of being born again in the spirit . The energy which is capable of giving life begins in the sacrum or root chakra the bottom where either sperm or egg is produced from there it may be used to make another physical life, be expelled on the ground or be lead up the spine to the crown activating the pineal gland and opening the third eye . This is the eye which looks within and sees all. Once this is open light is shined in the darkness and we begin to see the narrow path and how to walk it. We all are capable of moving mountains but only when we learn to control the waters of life or the sexual waters which christ is shown in the bible walking on. The world we live in which is controlled by a small group of people who know these secrets and do everything they can to keep us from knowing them by enticing people to release their energy constantly through illicit sex with or without others. They are the ones who have made sure through the control of the church beginning with the vatican and down the line that we only listen to them and ignore all other religions . It's true christ is the way but to know it you first must find the patterns in all religions then realize that the way means a process.
Something usually dies as we know it because of the majority of ppl seemingly agreeing...not at all because of the situation being truth !!! Remember the enemy knows its time is running the Hell out !!! Literally
@Chloelivi I would be careful not to judge all Catholics as the same. I am a protestant, but I went to St Ignatius HS. There are many great Catholic believers who fervently try to serve the needy in this life.
Vladislov... the episcopalian church is now fallen in many respects, Bishop Spongs unchristian views are evidence of that. The church should remove the title of Bishop from this man.... who doesn't believe the message of atonment, which is central to the Christian message.
Joshua Frye Have you ever heard of the Jesuits extreme oath of induction.? Reading that document (still upheld by Vatican ll ) may enlighten you as to the deception of their ecumenical disguise. See Vatican Assassins by Eric John Phelps.
while i agree with most of his message i wonder if ive just done my own mental gymnastics to deal with some of these theological problems. For example i never interpreted my baptism as some...purity bath, i saw it simply as a symbol to try and walk with christ and to be "immersed" in Him. I never saw communion as a guilt laden thing where i must be cleansed but rather that, if i take of his blood, He is within me sort of thing. But. of course. they're all just rituals. and i always understood them to be just that. rituals. not the things that truly matter but that rather it was your heart that mattered. Anyway, i still greatly appreciate this guy's criticisms and maybe he's visited or been in more fundamentalist churches than i had...where perhaps i had a little more freedom of thought.
Any church with a Bible in its pews should not allow this man through the door. Spong is NOT a Christian 26:08 He seems to think that God is some sort of monster that requires Jesus death, a child abuser, a victimizer. He ignores the fact that Jesus and God are one. God isn't punishing Jesus, HE IS PUNISHING HIMSELF! He doesn't not condemn us to suffer through the world alone, but became flesh and came down to suffer along side us. 28:45 He says that this message makes us feel worthless. For me, it's the opposite. The God of the universe came down to Earth and suffered alongside us. He understands our plight, he longs to show mercy to us for our rebellion against him, he created a place for us, he sacrificed himself for us. 30:30 - he talks about God laughing at sinners burning in hell. This moron didn't get that from the Bible... nor from ANY christian church. He's a liar. He almost never quotes from the Bible and when he does he doesn't go into the meaning of the text, he just makes a joke.
Joshua Frye "He seems to think that God is some sort of monster that requires Jesus death, a child abuser, a victimizer." which is true if you believe in penal substitution. "He ignores the fact that Jesus and God are one. God isn't punishing Jesus, HE IS PUNISHING HIMSELF! He doesn't not condemn us to suffer through the world alone, but became flesh and came down to suffer along side us." i can appreciate that view. still brings up the question though why God couldn't just "forgive" us and had to have a punishment doled out. do you punish others or yourself when u forgive others? BUT. what you're saying might be compatible with christus victor, that God came to be with us and show us "the way, and the life" and loved us even when we (not you and i but humanity at the time), crucified him for it. "he talks about God laughing at sinners burning in hell. This moron didn't get that from the Bible... nor from ANY christian church. " you haven't seen some of the christian churches out there ahhah. but no i dont think its biblical. "He's a liar. He almost never quotes from the Bible and when he does he doesn't go into the meaning of the text, he just makes a joke." He's more of a philosopher, which i personally appreciate. it doesnt make him a liar per se. people aren't liars just if they get a few things wrong. i doubt u wake up everyday knowing all the right things about the universe.
Vanessa, Spong wakes up every day, denies Jesus' divinity, denies His resurrection, denies humanity's need for forgiveness, denies the testimony of the gospels, denies the new testament, denies the old testament and then calls himself a Christian. That is a lie. You cannot claim to be something you don't believe in. You see, in the Bible, there are countless verses in which Jesus says that we are a fallen people, in need of God's mercy. Jesus says "I am the way the truth and the life".... but Spong denies Jesus' "way" and makes up his own. I'm a little unsure of why you are wondering about why Jesus had to die. He died because that was his purpose, God's purpose for Him. Asking why seems a bit futile.... 1) Jesus death on the cross is the mirror image of the Jewish practice of killing lambs at passover time and placing the sins of the family on that lamb so that they could live righteous lives, free from sin. We no longer do that because Jesus was the ultimate "lamb". That's why he is called the lamb of God. 2) Jesus death was needed to show his resurrection. You cannot have one without the other. This shows his power over death and moved the disciples to devote their lives to the Gospel and spreading the good news. 3) God, being ultimately a just God, became flesh and suffered alongside humans. Showing us that we are not alone in our times of pain. There are others, but those would be some.
Use a healthy human mind And be a Christian of a different kind No need to worship God above Far better is to know what’s love And build all laws on that And preaching will go flat No heaven or hell to go No temples there for show Just live the life That Way That’s Christianity today
@@RPSanAnto As John Shelby expresses the old Christianity is dying is so very true .It is mostly based on superstition and fake beliefs. There is no God as expressed in the bible the God we believe in is human Love not some control freak way above. So the new Christianity is a Way of living not a set of beliefs that go back into the superstitious past.
What a Joseph Smith for our time-distorting scripture, denying classical doctrines of the faith and creating his own doctrines of God and Christ out of sheer fancy based on nothing but his own personal opinions-and of course doing this without any real foundation in anything except for his own self appointed, self anointed authority. How truly sad. However… I’m sure he’s figured out what the Truth is now.
Don't forget to blame the false apostate prophets of TBN for one of main reasons for the disappearance of Christianity as we know it. Most preachers compromise with the TBNites rather than exposing their false teateachings . Read the book 'Christianity in Crisis ' Take care.
This is a terrible mischaracterization of the Christian faith. John Spong has simply allowed his emotions, privilege, and cultural individualism to color his theology, deeply; so deep that he can't even see it, neither others like him. I used to enjoy his theological mind, but I've outgrown this kind of liberal revisionism.
In Hinduism, the true nature of every man and woman is Divine. So, procreation is also divine. In fact, man is not eligible to perform holy rituals without his wife beside him. Instead of sin, we say it's bad Karma the effect of which will have to experienced by the doer in this or next lives. Knowing the true nature of Self and and performing selfless Karma liberates the man. Thus Liberation is not dependent on God but one's own determination. God is busy in the timeless Creation, Sustenance and Dissolution of the Universe.
Jesus was not a European Bearded GQ model looking dude either. He was probably dark-skin with nappy hair and a large nose. Since the bible says nothing about what he looked like, The catholic artisans depicted him as themselves. white. That's if he truly existed and not plagiarized by mythical gods that came long before him who had the exact same life experiences he did.
+Audrey Dunham i Agree with you....in FACT, Jesus just like the other GOD's MESSENGERS.... is a MUSLIM. it's UNDENIABLY by straight&honest human being that GOD is only ONE... it means, the original "Lesson" is only one, coming from the only one.
@Audrey while technically a Jewish Rabbi... surely Jesus believed in his own salvation and that he was the Christ. He calls himself the Son of Man over... and over ... and over in the Gospels. Perhaps you should read on what that meant to Jewish people. That makes him the #1 Christian.
@@opendoorgames6413 I don't see how that makes him the first Christian or #1 Christian. True followers of Jesus would have to be Jews. Jesus was a Jew and nowhere he's reported to say he's not or anything but a Jew. He even came "not to abolish the law but to fulfill it". Christians are not so much followers of Jesus it seems but rather followers of Saul/Paul of Tarsus. In my mind Jesus would give an interesting speech were he alive today. He tried to change the tribal view of his followers about how God is in His perception (more like a loving father) but unfortunately approximately 2,000 years later we still see the limited and limiting belief in so many Christian denominations that god is a narrow-minded tribal warlord whose creation - otherwise perfect - resulted in a deeply flawed dirty, sinful, unworthy human being. And other incongruities.... Best wishes!!
wrong dude its just a story, to know good you have to know evil and vice versa, theyre too sides of the same coin, if god wrote that story hes probably facepalming right now that people dont get such a simple story
What are you on about? If you could string a sentence together properly I could actually give you a proper answer! My thought was a lot more dimensional "man" than you dribble..
Christianity is declining fast because mainly the trinity does not make sense. The more you try to explain it, the more you loose you mind. And Jesus died for your sins? No sane person would accept that, because you can commit more sins then? You are what you sinned. Jesus was only sent to the Jews not Gentiles. And the Bible was corrupted.Islam is the fasting growing religion now.
Jesus Christ was never a Catholic when he was alive, never went to the church or wore a crucifix. He never ate pork, never drank wine, was circumcised, fasted 40 days and prayed his face down, like Muslims do. He himself said that he was "only sent to the lost sheep of Israel."
Jesus was not sent to the Jews. The Jews are not and have never been the chosen. Its simply the religion for which the messiah would come through that was choosin. At least that's what the bible means by that scripture.
If you read your Bible carefully, there are a lot of verses saying that Jesus was sent to the Jews. I just quote only 2 for brevity sake. Jesus said that he was only sent to the "lost sheep of ISRAEL". The first of the 10 Commandment says, "Hear O ISRAEL(NOT GENTILES)..our Lord is one God"
Christianity is dying because people in general are smarter, they see the world through logical eyes. They see so much hatred and violence come out of religion, I personally dream of a world without religion. If the Catholic church gave up its fortune the poor could eat and Africa would stop starving.
@@CCCSpringfield Mr Spong has consistently downplayed and diminished the horror of the cross...Jesus Christ is God. There is a Hell and the church did not invent it to control people. I don't have space to continue his heresies. Have a great day.
@@CCCSpringfield I might also add that his support of homosexual sin is very telling. Obviously, he does not read or believe the Bible and thinks that Paul is making everything up out of thin air. If I was a devotee of Mr. Spong I would encourage those people to consider his teachings.
