Black and White Paper Reversal - getting some nice results now!

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Breaking News! You CAN control the contrast!
Yep, you heard it right, after six outings with this process I think I have nailed a foolproof way of making this process work - when I get my math right of course. And that is by no means a given.
So, there are a few shoots here and a few darkroom sessions. First shoot I established that at this time of year in the UK, rating the paper at about ISO 1.8, ie rate it at ISO 2 and add a bit, gets the exposure right. I also established that for some weird reason, yellow filters absolutely sap the image of any light.
Then in the darkroom we established that developing to completion in the second bath works just fine, no need to monitor things.
Second shoot I confirmed the ISO 1.8 ish assertion, and also established that even adding 3.5 stops of exposure still doesn't get the yellow filter to make a decent image. But I also established that the combo of a yellow filter and a graduated ND on the sky could be a winner.
Next shoot I did loads of exposures with the yellow filters, and can confirm that you're looking for about +4 on the exposure when using a yellow.
And in the fourth and final shoot for this video I established that I am an idiot.
So there we go, all in all a good couple of weeks' work I'd say.
What do you think? Are you ready to head out and try for yourself??
You can now get the black and white paper reversal kit from:
www.stenopeika.com/product/ma...
I'm told that Bellini's stockists will soon have it in stock as well. Check the Bellini website here for your nearest stockist:
www.bellinifoto.it/en/where-t...

Опубликовано:

4 фев 2024

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Комментарии : 61

@kdj.imagery4317 2 месяца назад

I liked the results in some of them, they had a sort of nostalgic feel too them. As if the were shot in a vintage camera from the early 1900's!

@SilntObsvr 23 дня назад

There's a lot of similarity there; films/plates available before WWI were almost all orthochromatic, with a few blue-sensitive (before about 1880 they were all blue-sensitive only) -- and multigrade printing paper is sensitive to blue, and a bit less so to green, like one of the early ortho films.

@SilntObsvr 23 дня назад

Multi-grade papers (Variable Contrast etc.) have effectively two emulsions mixed together. One is sensitive only to blue and UV; the other is sensitized to green light as well (orthochromatic, more or less). A yellow filter strong enough to use as a contrast filter (for instance, to differentiate clouds from blue sky) with panchromatic film will effectively block (almost) all the blue/UV light, leaving you with only part of the spectrum that would expose the green-sensitive halide grains; hence the large loss of speed (likely two stops, near enough) with a yellow photographic filter. A high contrast printing filter blocks (some) green light, while the low contrast filters block (some) blue, but neither of them blocks all of either color. A yellow photographic filter blocks much more blue light by comparison (though the commonly used grades still don't block 100% of blue).

@the120ist 16 дней назад

Right, that all makes sense. I'm about to start a lengthy testing process with this technique. Essentially I want to shoot portraits, and the yellow filter, for all the reasons you've mentioned, is impractical. So I've spent a month or so stockpiling an array of papers and a spread of developing chemistry, and I'll be starting the process of finding the perfect combination this week. I shall also be mixing some developers of my own. Should be very interesting. Video coming soon!

@davefaulkner6302 Месяц назад

My experience with the Harmon direct positive paper was that it is sensitive to UV light, so I would shoot at ISO 2 at mid-afternoon, but ISO 3 or 4 late in the day. If this is true, then the effects of clouds and fog or general atmospheric vapor must affect the amount of UV, which isn't measured by our light meters. As such, it's a guessing game mostly that you must play intuitively. Add in filters and water and the dice are loaded. One trick borrowed from printing paper in the darkroom you can try is to do multiple exposure times on the same paper by using your darkslide. Mark the darkslide into thirds using a permanent marker. Set up a shot that has a two second exposure target. Pull the darkslide to the first mark, and do a two second exposure. Now pull the darkslide to the second mark and expose for one second. Pull the darkslide out altogether and do another one second exposure. Now the paper has three exposures: one second, two seconds and four seconds. If your target was two seconds, your paper shows one exposure at stop, one under a stop and one over a stop (in the order (-1, 0, +1)). This can help you locate the correct ISO and exposure to use more quickly, and eliminates some of the variables while testing.

@the120ist Месяц назад

Great advice. All paper is UV sensitive, I believe, so this process is definitely UV sensitive. And I think doing a sort of test strip, as you describe, is possibly the only way of knowing for sure what the UV is going to do to your sheet. But... in order to do that, I would essentially have to be shooting next to my dark room, so I could process immediately. Otherwise I'd have to be driving back from a location to develop the test strip, then returning.. and the light will have changed! I think intuition and experience are going to be the keys here, and getting out and shooting more regularly. Which I should definitely do anyway!

@stigofthedump4058 6 месяцев назад

Nothing constructive to add today, just to say your channel must be becoming the top destination on YT for us analogue photographer types ! Another enjoyable and interesting post, many thanks !

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

Thank you! Really glad you're enjoying the vids. Maybe not the top destination for analogue photographer types, sadly, but hopefully a useful resource for those of us who enjoy experimenting with ill-advised, off-piste analogue exploits!

@RobertBrazile 6 месяцев назад

Making good progress on this technique. Thanks for doing it so I don't have to make all the same mistakes -- I've done paper negatives, but not got around to reversal yet, so you're doing a lot of leg work! The extra light needed with the yellow filter makes sense: paper is not usually panchromatic. (VC paper of course has the two different emulsions, but neither is panchromatic.) A yellow filter would block blue light, which would likely take away a bunch of the paper's sensitivity, having more effect than it would on a panchro film.

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

You’re welcome! Happy to do the leg work if it means I’m out photographing every day! Such a hardship… what you say about panchro vs ortho makes sense, and I sort of surmised as much… but riddle me this… why don’t you have to add 4.5 stops of exposure time in the darkroom when using a 00 filter?

@pedrova8058 2 месяца назад

I guess it has to do with the reciprocity/sensitivity curves (?). I mean, it's a chemical process, it cannot be linear throughout all the range. On a densely cloudy day, there is basically blue light, if the yellow filter cuts all that (and there are almost no intense greens present in the scene) there is practically no light that can pass through. That would be outside the necessary time/intensity range for that paper (?) from a forum: - "Paper has 2 kinds of reciprocity failure, speed and contrast. These effects vary vastly among papers, but can be disastrous with VC papers where you are trying to design matched reciprocity failure between 2 emulsions. Some papers have virtually no reciprocity failure, others have a lot. Some papers for example, are designed to work in different ranges. Digital papers are designed to work with high intensity short exposures and if you use them on-easel, they will respond differently than the mfgrs. data sheet. Historically, Kodak made 2 ranges of papers. One for high intensity short exposures and one for low intensity long exposure." . In a suny bright day, the light intensity is higher and the spectrum is broader (In the photos of that church, with a filter, practically only the sky was exposed; on the other hand, in the river scene, the entire scene was "exposed")

@SilntObsvr 23 дня назад

BTW, you can do B&W reversal without paying for Bellini's kit, too -- you can use 3% hydrogen peroxide (from the drug store or chemist, depending what you call them) and acetic acid baths (stop bath will work, though higher concentration will be a bit faster), repeated as needed, for the bleach step, and common print developer for both development steps (and common print fixer, of course). There are other bleach systems that work well, too, but this one doesn't require any special chemicals like permanganate or dichromate, or an ammonia bath.

@the120ist 16 дней назад

Yeah I know there are other options out there, for sure. And quite a few different methods well documented online, which is great. I got sent the kit by Bellini and Stenopeika, so that's what I was using, but you can definitely make your own.

@SilntObsvr 16 дней назад

@@the120ist Most of the current commercial B&W reversal kits for either film or paper seem to use potassium permanganate based bleach, likely due to the EU ban on hexavalent chromium. The problem is that permanganate softens emulsion, instead of hardening it like dichromate does, so there's a risk (especially with older-process emulsions like Fomapan) of the emulsion being damaged or frilling or just sliding right off the base. Also, there is a likelihood that shipping restrictions will appear on the permanganate, because it's a strong oxidizer. The advantage of peroxide/acetic acid bleach is it uses chemicals anyone can buy (3% peroxide is sold as a disinfectant almost everywhere, and white vinegar will work for the acid bath). The bleach I plan to try soon is copper sulfate based; this converts developed silver to silver chloride, which is preferentially soluble in ammonium hydroxide -- stinky/irritant, but reliable and doesn't require a prolonged series of bath switches to get the job done -- and I can buy all the chemicals at the local grocery and home improvement stores.

@tamaspetruska5817 28 дней назад

Hi. that's how i do it Paper call as direct positive. Call: approx. 6 min. Wash: 30 sec. Bleaching: 30-60 sec. Washing: 5 min. Sunlight or lamp: approx. 5 min. until it appears dimly. Call: usual 30-60 sec Fixation: 5 min. Washing: normal

@the120ist 25 дней назад

Thanks! I about to start a lot of experimentation with this process, to see what gets the best results. I'll be trying 6-7 different developers, and 7-8 different papers, to see what combination works best. Video will be on the channel soon.

@HerrSeitenwagen 5 месяцев назад

This is really exciting! Couple of thoughts on contrast (I've written to your mail as well but maybe this gets through better). Maybe it's worthwhile experimenting with filters- that is, and I'm assuming you use multigrade paper, use the same contrast filters you would in the darkroom too. Try for example to shoot a scene in grade 1 or 1,5 to see what that will give. The yellow filter prolonging the necessary exposure time by such a huge margin is maybe not as surprising if you think of the colour of the multigrade filters and that yellow doesn't really fit in there...

@tedphillips2951 6 месяцев назад

Your effort is amazing & appreciated! Very interesting video.

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Glad you enjoyed it! I would have had to put in less effort if I could just get it right!! That last shoot was the icing on the cake for me.... after all that I go out and make a stupid mistake. DAMMIT!!

@gregwardecke 6 месяцев назад

Great progress! You’ve done a great job on eliminating variables. I know this is a cubic butt ton of work so thank you for bringing us along. Once again great progress!! I like the first church photo. Regardless of process it’s a good photograph.

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Thanks Greg! I was enjoying myself, but at the same time I just needed to get some decent images from it! Such a shame I messed up that last shoot, but I’ve been shooting this vid for like three weeks and I needed to wrap it up! More to come though, I feel like the testing is mostly done now, I can focus on images. Whew!

@jw48335 6 месяцев назад

Man, you are so much more patient with this than I would have been. Congratulations on getting so far - really impressive progress. I have to say I'd have tossed up my hands and gone for some $25/25 FPP x-ray film or maybe FPP $30/25 Frankenstein if I had this much pain 😂

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Hopefully I’m taking the pain for you! Here’s the scoop - ISO 1.9 ish, +4.5 stops for a yellow filter to control the contrast! There you go, no need to reach for the xray film! It did take a little patience, but it was mostly that I was convinced I could make it work, so I couldn’t stop until I had it under control. Talk about stubborn….

@Dreambodyworks 6 месяцев назад

Wicked video Nick put together so well mate!

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Cheers mate! Appreciate it.

@davidbanwell7728 5 месяцев назад

Enjoying the content with the photographic paper.

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

Thanks, glad you're enjoying. Have you tried it?

@mrsmscuriositycabinet6925 6 месяцев назад

Thank you for this excellent video, your patience and sheer bl**** mindedness Nd generously sharing of results. I’m really excited for this process, particularly as I’ve just scored a vintage 9x12 plate camera. I know how to plate glass but being able to use paper reversal will be so useful.

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

Glad you enjoyed! It's definitely an enjoyable process, when you get the right results it's great! Will be ideal for 9x12 too. I'm excited about the world of supposedly defunct cameras this opens up! I know you can get 9x12 film sheets, but there's not much out there. Have fun, let me know when you try out the paper reversal!

@TristanColgate 6 месяцев назад

re: contrast filter. I guess the yellow is just knocking all the ultraviolet out, it does make some sense.

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

I need to have a chat with some physics professor to find out what's really happening here. I also need to talk to a photo paper manufacturer, there's a lot about the dual emulsion VC/MG paper that I don't know! Watch out for more vids on the subject!

@vintagecameradigest 6 месяцев назад

I really appreciate seeing your entire process here - failures and all - because those same shortcomings are what I would be facing in my efforts to explore this technique. I would say that here, you’ve done a lot of the work for us - a proper test and excellent commentary throughout. I would have been as surprised as you that a yellow filter would have caused such exposure variation. Also, I may have missed it, but what were the results using the 00 paper contrast filter? That wouldn’t require any exposure compensation in regular printing, but I’m sure it would have an effect on this process since the yellow filter did. Excellent work!

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

Ah, I did sort of skip over that bit a little, essentially the results from the 00 darkroom filter and the yellow photo filter were almost identical. So, as the 00 filter is more difficult to handle in the field (bendy, prone to scratching, prone to dissolving in the rain!), I ditched the darkroom filter in favour of the glass photo filter. I wasn't finding any difference between them. As the wonderful Andrew Bartram has just pointed out in the comments here, whilst the 00 requires "no compensation", that's likely referring to no compensation needed between 00 and 3, rather than no filter vs 00. Because you'd never do a test strip with no filter, just plain white light. And in fact, on the occasion I have forgotten to put a filer in place before I start, the white light is blinding! So perhaps this +4 stop result was to be expected. What is interesting is the difference between panchromatic BW film + yellow filter, and orthochromatic VC paper + yellow filter. I would usually add half a stop, or maybe one stop, for a yellow filter when shooting BW film... definitely not +4 or more!

@vintagecameradigest 5 месяцев назад

@@the120ist Thanks to Andrew for pointing out the obvious. He's exactly right. My excuse is that I haven't done "real" darkroom printing in 25 yrs. I know. It's a travesty. Plus, I'm old. That counts, right? In any case, I'm still suprised that filter costs +4 stops. But glad you got it worked out!

@charlieb.4273 6 месяцев назад

Good on you. Keep at it. Charlie in Virginia

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Thanks Charlie! I feel like this process could be really rewarding if I can just take the beast!!

@paultaylorphotography9499 6 месяцев назад

Mate top marks for dogged determination. Keep at it getting close with those images.

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Ha ha! This video would have been just one shoot if I could get it right first time!

@paultaylorphotography9499 6 месяцев назад

exactly right mate no pain no grain. @@the120ist

@MarcoRoepers 6 месяцев назад

Admiring your tenacity

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

Alas... I think I would not need as much tenacity if I had a little more talent!!!

@MarcoRoepers 6 месяцев назад

I'm lacking talent,too So This video is very inspiring.😊

@peterangusphotography3423 4 месяца назад

Great videos on the paper reversal process. I’m going to have to try this myself when I can get hold of some chemistry. I’ll calibrate my process firstly in a still life setting with controlled and consistent lighting and dynamic range. Perhaps I’ll develop as a normal negative first to see what black and white points I reach before going the whole way through to the reversal on later shots. By breaking the process into its separate parts I should understand what is happening with exposure, first and second stage developing in stages rather than trying to analyse the results as a whole. I enjoyed portrait shooting with direct positive paper and this is a much more cost effective process

@skipwilliamsnj 6 месяцев назад

Very cool stuff. I wonder if the UV light on the sunny days has an effect on the paper, given it's spectral response? Maybe sunny and cloudy need different approaches?

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

That's an interesting one! I have done quite a bit of reading up on this, and as always it's hard to find anything online answering that specific question. What we have to ask is whether the UV end of the spectrum is affected by the conditions any more or less than the visible light. If the UV and visible light are affected equally by the conditions, then metering will compensate for any reduction in UV. If clouds block more UV than visible light, then after metering we should add compensation for that. The conclusion I have come to, for now, (pending more research!) is that UV is affected less by weather than it is by seasons, and the angle of the sun's rays hitting the atmosphere. That's definitely a recognised thing, that UV is stronger in summer in the higher latitudes. I didn't compensate for cloud cover, and I wasn't seeing a great deal of difference in the standard (no filter) metering. This is something I have been thinking about though. I might see if I can track down a willing physics professor and try to get a definitive answer!

@andrewbartram2478 6 месяцев назад

Just picking up on your comment re darkroom filters not needing an increase in exposure till grade 3.5 or 4 - that’s true but only once you have established the correct exposure with the filter in place - then changing to 1, 2 or grade 3 etc should not need any further changes. Maybe you get to that and I need to watch more - which of course I will 😅

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

Hey Andrew! That's an interesting point of course, that you wouldn't do any test strips without filters in place. So the "no extra exposure needed" instruction must be, as you say, referring to exposure adjustment between 00-5 rather than no filter - 00. So maybe if you were to ever do a no filter vs 00 test, you would find +4 stops difference. Doesn't change the outcome of course!

@nvrumi 6 месяцев назад

Fun stuff! I've always wanted a 4x5 field camera, but never gone that route. I better digest what I have to date before taking on a new project.

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

If you have started thinking about it, then the end is inevitable!! Might as well save yourself any lost time and go get a 4x5 camera today!! Seriously though, I really enjoy it. There's something much more pure and raw about LF photography. So much of the automation, or mechanisation, is removed, and you're left with a lens, a box, a sheet of film (or paper), and yourself. I find it both challenging and cathartic in equal measure!

@nvrumi 6 месяцев назад

@@the120ist I have to LOL at your comment. I started lusting for a large format camera decades ago! I'd look for a while, then decide to wait. There are so many options that it is mind boggling! I need a primer on selecting camera and lenses. I figure a battery of three lenses should suffice and probably and handful of film carriers as well. But the issue (for me) is selecting solid performers that won't break the bank *and* won't require a bagillion (TM) hours of research to decide. I have the engineer's affliction of always trying to optimize everything I do, and am more than a little obsessive about it. That can mean analysis-paralysis and then the inevitable second-guessing once I do something. Ha! (It is OK to laugh at me about this!) I am loving your series on paper positives and this looks like a lot of fun. Thanks for the response.

@chriscard6544 5 месяцев назад

grade 0 should have effects on highlights and grade 5 should have effects on shadows (deeper black)

@the120ist 5 месяцев назад

Interesting... next step is definitely to experiment with the rest of the darkroom filters, to see what gives the best results.

@stephenrichard6548 6 месяцев назад

Thanks from Michigan. Maybe this was stated and I missed it. Yellow filter adds contrast with film, but lowers it on the paper?

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

In very broad strokes, yes. Using a yellow filter came from some suggestions in the comments of my last video on this, and is based on the filters that you use for controlling exposure when darkroom printing. The yellow darkroom filter reduces contrast. I can’t currently tell you why that is, I’m working on a video exploring the concept, so keep an eye out for more of that! My current understanding though is that mutigrade (mg) / variable contrast (vc) photo papers have two layers of emulsion, one sensitive to certain wavelengths, and high contrast, the other layer much lower contrast and sensitive to other wavelengths. When you add filters of certain colours you activate more of one layer than the other. As I understand it. Don’t quote me on that!!

@stephenrichard6548 6 месяцев назад

Thanks. I need to go back and watch all of what you’ve done with this. I really like your channel. Like so many, I’ve come back to film. Your videos have really helped me.

@davestubularvideos9046 6 месяцев назад

Is this really suitable for portraits when it is reversing images? Your models won’t know because they are used to their mirror images. That church and tree didn’t move but are captured left on the right and right on the left. I raised this on the last experiment when you had the human models and asked if some of those shots were taken on paper that had been put in backwards because they appeared ‘correct’ but fuzzy. I experimented with regular print paper which required a contact print, emulsion to emulsion to get a positive image which. Importantly also corrected the reversal of the image. You are clearly enjoying experimenting and so are we the viewers! Thanks Dave

@the120ist 6 месяцев назад

I did go back and check the last video you mentioned this, and I wasn't sure that the image had been reversed twice. Now that I have spent more time with the process, I think the exposure I was getting on that first outing is in line with what I'm finding now. I would attribute the fuzziness to movement, or possible outward bending of the paper in the holder. I am now using some double sided tape to hold the paper down inside the holder, to avoid that issue, and stop the paper popping out when I replace the dark slide. But does the resulting reversed image make it unsuitable for portraits? If we look at the early photographic processes, such as Daguerrotypes or tintype / wet plate collodion, these were all "direct positive" processes, and so resulted in mirror images. Do we think it's a problem?

@davestubularvideos9046 6 месяцев назад

That is quite a thought, that all early photos were mirror images. In the case of portraits the subject would have been presented with a very familiar image until they held up the plate along-side their face in the mirror to compare the likeness. Next expression if their features were not totally uniform…puzzlement. Thanks very much for replying. I remain subscribed!

@killpop8255 2 месяца назад

Sitting here wondering why yellow has such a big difference on contrast for grey stones, grey sky, muddy field. 🤷

@the120ist Месяц назад

As far as I know, and I'm hoping to post a video about this soon, multi-grade, or VC (variable contrast) paper has two emulsion coatings. One is high contrast, one low. Each emulsion is designed to be reactive to different wavelengths of light, and this is why we use colour filters in the darkroom. Before VC paper, each stock was graded on contrast, and the contrast of that paper was fixed. So it's nothing to do with the light coming from the scene, or not really, and all to do with the colour filters activating different emulsions to offer changed contrast within the same image. I think that's right anyway! Hoping to go see the tech guys at Ilford to shoot a video explaining it all!

@killpop8255 Месяц назад

@@the120ist thanks. So maybe I was right and my college teacher when he told me my split grade printing wasn't going to get any other results that I could get by single grade printing. Anyway I'll wait for the video.