I absolutely LOVE this channel LOL! Jake is turning the Black Powder world upside down. Alot of the people in this thing believe what they have heard other Crotchety old geezers Regurgitate that they themselves had other Crotchety Old Geezers tell them! Like me Jake COULD NEVER hang out at muzzleloadingforum LOL. Another great video Jake,
What is muzzleloading forum? Is it like the forums and chat rooms of old? Back when we teens would go use the library computers to chat up the yahoo chat rooms about anything we wanted to talk about? And is it Willard or Jake or both?
I’ve upset a lot of folks on the muzzleloading forums. It’s one of the reasons I started making videos, to show people it’s not as quite as life threatening as the old guard on the interweb would have people believe. Willard McBain is nickname I was given as a kid because I would sing that “it’s me again Margaret” song everywhere I went.
Thanks, you made me laugh showing those comments. I've been loading black powder( cartridge & muzzleloader) for 30+ years and for most of that time I weigh EVERYTHING. Early on every magazine article I ran across advised only volume measurement. After I started weighing things, I got the same snarky comments about my methods. I learned to respond "I'm more interested in accuracy than convenience", which I really am. So what it takes a little more time--this is supposed to my hobby that I enjoy doing!!
Anyone who passed high school physics knows that volumetric measurement is next to worthless as far as consistency goes when stood next to measurement by weight or mass. Flour for instance, uses volumetric measurement in baking recipes and will tell you wether or not to *pack* it. That's because *packed* flour allows WAY more substance in the *same* amount of *volume* and the same is true for black powder. Finer grain allows for more powder in the *same volume* . Weight or mass measurements however don't have this issue. A gram is a gram, a grain is a grain (in weight NOT volume) no matter the situation, mass and weight don't change in any significant way.
EBP, Gee, you mean to say the 'number marks' on that there brass tube are weight numbers! Mind Blown! 🙄 Also you said you did a vid on this in shorts. PLEASE wear long pants ... it's for the children. 🤣
Yeah unfortunately the comment section usually has one or two people that really shouldn't have even happened. They exist in the wild in unfortunately high numbers too. I quit taking walk ins for guns smithing because of it.
Because so many people have been using the brass powder measures to load their guns, it has been cemented into their brains that this is the only way to measure black powder. What they dont realize is that in order to make a volumetric powder measure, we first must know how much volume is taken up by 10 grains of powder. How do we know how much powder is in 10 grains? We use a grain scale! We weigh the powder!. I find that I have to explain this to the average Joe shooter quite a bit.
If a charge of black powder (NOT subs) is consistent and there is sufficient compression, it really doesn't matter HOW the powder is weighed. To really show the haters a little sumthin' sumthin', you might consider comparing extreme spread (ES) and standard deviation (SD) of thrown vs. weighed. Oh, and are these purported experts aware that volumetric measures don't all agree with one another?
Man this again? I thought it was settled with the last demonstration and follow up explanation and demonstration. After the first video I started weighing my BP charges for my muzzleloader because I usually carry premeasured charges anyway, especially hunting. Groups are better than volume measuring my BP. Also I hate pyrodex that stuff is crap!
WMcB: This really is hilarious....stop worrying about some flatearthers...🤣 you simply can't fix stupid...these people will just fall of their earth onto the the next one... if they want to stick to their "70" mark - GOOD for us when we are shooting in competition 👍- awesome show ! Keep it up !
Thank you so much for this mornings fun. I am laughing my fat ass off. I have met those same folks and heard their arguments. Still can't believe they lived through puberty. Keep up the great content. I have to stop laughing enough to pour coffee...
Those folks should break themselves free from the nay sayer’s “rule book”, and do their own research. Its like they only trust what has been said and never finding the truth!
I can only find Pyrodex, so I Have to do Volumetric measurements... You CAN measure both powders volumetrically... you can also weigh them. Pyrodex is Lighter, so measure it by volume, then weigh it.
I've been shooting BP for the past 10 years. I found this out to be true when I was reloading 45 colt with 2F. Just out of curiosity, I weighed my charge and it darn near came out to the volume measurement. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
When I’m loading ‘plinking’ black powder ammo I just use a scoop. When making ‘match’ ammo for accuracy I weight it so it is EXACT. I love that bp is close to the same weight to volume. Then the substitutes had to come in and mess that up, another reason to hate it(subs).
That was a good, thorough, explanation and I think you’re exactly right that the substitutes are the cause of the confusion. In videos, I’ve always recommended volume measures for substitutes (and I typically use them in the field for black powder too), but a lot of people don’t know what those are based on. Good video!
Well, from all your videos I've seen, I am very sure you know what your doing. I've been shooting black powder for 47 years, and I have learned a few things from you. I think your awesome so I don't make my own damn video lol (love that ending)
Good thing I wasn't drinking coffee. Otherwise I would've spit all over my computer from laughing so hard. You can weight anything. It's just easier to use volume measure. The inventors of the sub powders mustve thought better to dumb it down for people.
Something interesting regarding the black powder substitutes is I’m looking at my Pyrodex P can right now and it says on the back in fine print “Not to be loaded in cartridges”. But yet some of these same mouth breathers who say “blackpowder must be measured by volume” will also say “yeah it says that but you can load it in a brass cartridge case” so on the one hand they generalize a rule made for substitutes to all blackpowder but yet won’t follow the other rule which was made probably for liability reasons. Also it just shows their historical ignorance because there are periodicals from target shooters going WAY back into the early 19th century and measuring by WEIGHT was the preferred method for target shooting because it was more accurate and more consistent. Honestly this fudd lore that keeps getting toss around like so many diapers at a retirement home is so annoying to have to break down and deal with because to properly deconstruct where the myth and rumors come from yah gotta spend about 10-20 minutes in explanation and most of these idiots have the attention span of a gnat.
Love these videos. And thanks for this one. I saw a fud’s face melt when I told him to Google “grain” while I stood there and watched. Yep, it’s a measurement of weight.
Melt the Earth's core? Inner core or outer core? The Bullen discontinuity is at approximately 10,800 degrees F (6000 deg C). Core is already partially melted, so if you want to go to full melt, you will need to weight out grains of BP (Black Plutonium) since compression at the core due to ambient pressure (3.6 million atm, 51,204,036 psi) makes volumetric measurement problematic. Can't use pyrodex cause it burns up to only 4000 degrees F and it would cool the core, reducing the actual melting already there. Great video!
That end bit about substitutes - I'm one of those people that weighs his Pyrodex. For a muzzleloader. But I wouldn't be caught dead with a speedloader - give me a paper cartridge any day of the week.
From a chemistry perspective, you want to know the chemical energy. That is based on weight. If you look at Hoffman reproductions where he does not compress the powder, my guess is his homemade blackpowder will weigh less.and not have the chemical energy of yours. Is that good or bad? It is just different and you should test not only the density of the powder but also the burn rate My guess is his burn rate is faster. I agree with you that people say do it by volume. I think it was typically historical. 200 years ago, most people did not have a scale for measuring powder, so volume was what they had to use. Now with Pyrodex and other substitutes the chemical energy by weight is different. Because of that if you want to change from one to another, they have made it to match by volume real black powder. I Love Muzzleloading also has a video that he says, he measured a different substitute and its density is about 70% of real black powder, or if you use 100 grains by weight of Real Black Powder, you would need to use 70 grains by weight of this different substitute. I measured 100 grains of Pyrodex by volume and got 70 grains by weight. I think the manufacturers wanted to make sure people were not overloading the rifles. For example if I measured 100 grains of Pyrodex by weight, it would be equivalent to 142 grains of blackpowder. The powder manufacturers want to make it simple because they think we are ignorant. Who would want to shoot muzzleloaders. Everyone prefers to shoot a modern rifle like an AR-15.🤥 I am finding people 200-300 years ago were very smart. We have just lost a lot of what was known.
And yet those people say BP is measured by volume so why don't express the charge in cc's and not grains? I always weight my powder for both cartridges and muzzle loaders, in fact I don't have a volume measure anymore. I made the mistake of asking the internet for BP/Pyrodex weight equivalents and you can guess the responses ! I did find a proper answer however weight of BP charge x 70% gives you the weight of Pyrodex charge.
This may be extremely obvious. I suspect that the reason black powder is traditionally measured by volume was just for simplicity and speed of reloading. Since black powder is a relatively weak explosive it was, and still is, a satisfactory way of measurement. A few grains one way or the other just didn't matter for hunting or military accuracy. Of course, you can weigh black powder charges, you just don't have to for acceptable performance and safety.
Ever since I saw a video of you bring it up, I have been weighing my muzzleloader charges with Black Powder. The only sub I liked was BlackMZ and it’s gone so what can I do? Anyway I weigh out the charges and put them in speed loaders or charge tubes. Yep it really is that simple that I want the most accurate charge consistency I can get and weight seems to solve the problem. I don’t know how long I have been weighing them but it works out for me and feels natural being a reloader already. I did tap the measure and would sometimes get noticeable differences between shots.
I weigh my charges for my two 1860 army revolvers loaded with 220gr Kaido bullets for the nightstand. I also weigh each bullet to get the best consistency. Out in the field I just use the power measure and shoot .454 round ball for fun.
Oh for Pete’s sake! Someone please inform the peanut gallery that there is a “difference “ between objective reality and traditional practice. Not a conflict!!! A similarly vexatious debate is happening in the baking world over weighing ingredients instead of using volumetric measurements. The simple fact is that weighing is more consistently accurate than eyeballing volumes.
A good scale does not lie. These mass produced volumetric measures are made with little regard for calibration, other than it's close enough. You can literally make one yourself that's more accurate. If a measure says 70, but my scale says 66 I'll make a new mark for 70 based on what the scale tells me. Real BP of course. I don't think grain size matters.
One thing is for sure, the Guys who call out religiously that BP has to be by measure and not by weight have probably never used BP in their life! No need to explain why it is used in loading books they would not understand. For everybody else, we know why and we use it accordingly.
Competition shooters weigh their charges all the time. Most shooters, when stating their load, note it as so many grains by weight or volume. What I don’t understand is why people want to show the World how knowledgeable they are, when instead they go out of their way to show how ignorant they are. I’m no expert, but I do know when to keep my mouth shut until I have gained enough knowledge to keep me from looking stupid.
No chemist would messure by volume, only by weight but if you want to load your rifle with your alway the same volume of blackpowder it doesn´t matter.
The volume measure is the less accurate one. And on that note, I have tested my volume powder measures and they read like a five grain difference between them. That little difference is the amount of powder that misses the muzzle. And now I'm curious if one measure was designed for a different grain of powder.
Guy you are too funny. Maybe you should try your hand at standup some day, LOL. I used to be one of those blackpowder snobs and then I got educated. Keep up the good work!
AT the age of 12, i shot my first .45 musket (40 years ago). The friend used Pyrodex because that's all he could get. But as a good mentor he made sure i knew the difference. At 13 bought my first BP pistol, a CVA colonial kit, shot Pyrodex in it and most of my other guns still today. I have made and shot lots of real BP over the years. i definitely know the difference. Pyrodex is still the easiest and cheapest to get in my area.
Well said, I definitely can understand the misunderstanding. No store around me carries real black powder anymore. For those who are interested in some of the history of the standards. The U.S and British militaries worked off the standard weight by volume measurement of 1.7g/cm3 and used a grain size of RFG (rifle fine grain, don’t quite me on that part), which translates to roughly 1fg today (16-20 mesh). The charges (for a .58) where then measured to 60 grains by weight. The whithworth rifle for greatest accuracy was often weighed down to the tenth of a grain then poured into a glass vile until ready to load.
It's pressed to 1.7 to 1.8 g/cc but is considerably more voluminous after the pressed solid powder is granulated. Sporting grade BP is around the same mass as water if I remember correctly.
For long range shooting it's worth the time and trouble of weighing the charges. The average shooter won't see the difference a grain or so one way or other makes on the target. Especially shooting off-hand at 25,50 and 100 yards. There can be differences in measures from brand to brand. But as long as you handle the measure consistently and your rifle likes that charge then that's all that really matters..
I cannot facepalm hard enough to deal with those who don't get that BP charge measuring tools calibrations are calibrated to measure a set weight based on the volume of that weight of Black Powder
A lot of the old books actually specify by weight or volume for certain charges of black powder. I believe that your right, I never heard of all this volume only crap, until the substitute crap came out. I mean, that's how we got the lines on adjustable measures, when we made custom ones, was by weighing the black powder.
BTW, when I want to create 12/70 on BP for close distance -> one LEE scoop (it goes like 50grains of 3F powder), then some wad, 24gram of shot. Boom! When I want to get stronger 12/70 for clay shootin then 2 scoops, it goes like 100-102 grains of 3F, then wad, shot, BIGEER BOOM! Simple.
People who think you can’t weigh consistent charges of black powder don’t know anything about reloading cartridges. This video didn’t suck, so I don’t have to make a video.
Well, when you start a diet, it's because you're measuring by volume and your volume is becoming too large for your pants. But then you want some more easily calibrated and measured metric, so you start going by weight. But if you're wildly successful with your diet, you may have to start measuring by volume again when your pants become too large.
Speaking of snider. I had a skirt tare off a miniball in my snider. Good thing i found it in. The barrel and didn't shoot again. Guess its a tad too undersized Lol. Been planning on makeung a reamer to widen the lube bands a smidg. Looks like thats much higher on the to do list now
I’m not even a regular and these people are idiots. You can use one or the other… I measure volume for my front stuffers and I weigh my cartridge guns.
Tried it with 2f. Every time the difference was 5 grains or slightly less. I used every volumetric measure and every weight scale i have...it is consistent.
I weigh all of my powder all of the time. I weigh it in grains and store it in plastic test tubes , as you mentioned. I am sure a lot of people do. I do this because it is definitely more consistent. I have tested this with Goex and swiss powders in both 2f and 3f . And with several different charge weights through a chronograph. The extreme spreads and standard deviations were much tighter, weighing it in grains on a scale . When I shot those same loads using an adjustable powder, measure the averages on my chronograph where much more inconsistent for sure. Consistency is a pretty important thing in my opinion .
In the world of black powder, an additional five grains is not going to blow your gun up. It's a different story with smokeless powder. Is great video. LMAO
@@Everythingblackpowder as an aside, when I started black powder, I always wondered about those numbers. Throwing 70 grains of 2f on a scale was one of the first things I did. Yeah, it's not exact. But if you lost you volumn measure and only had a scale(can you imagine that!)you'd be ok. Lol.
I weigh my IMR 4895 by volume to load 30.06 for my M1 Garand because.... well.. you know.. Those are antique guns made in WWII and are so old my Gandpa use to use one. If you load it by weight can you imagine the catastrophe??? Make sure you are smoking a cigarette and have a couple of beers while you load to keep your hands steady too. We don't need any whoopsies out there.......
Don't you just hate those imprecise so-n-sos, (may they develop warts on their ears). All BS aside I have seen several videos where the presenter called Pyrodex Black Powder with the Pyrodex canister in their hot little hand and something bad will come of it. Good video!
I got a question for you. I'm reading DeWitt Bailey's book about British military flintlock rifles 1740-1840 and it's talking about when they sent the first shipment of pattern 1776 rifles to America. It states that they sent 90 barrels of "extra fine, double strength, glazed powder" for these rifles. Any idea what a modern equivalent of that would be? Thanks Ethan
Howdy Ethan. That’s pretty interesting! The trouble with the granulation size is that what they considered to be extra fine is not what would be considered extra fine today. I have read some accounts from British officers in the 1850s that worked at the Waltham abbey powder mill In England that actually name the mesh count that the powder passes through to meet the qualifications of their “F” sizes. For small arms they had two. RFG (rifle fine powder) And ER (Enfield Rifle) The RFG needs to pass through a 12 mesh and anything caught in a 20 mesh is considered appropriate size RFG. While I don’t know what mesh was used for ER powder I think it’s safe to assume it’s not as fine as RFG. I’ve heard Brett form paper cartridges say that musket or rifle powder in the early to mid 19 century would be what we call 1F and he would know. Now I have to admit I’m assuming what Bailey is describing here is pressed powder for two reasons. The double strength and glazed. I’ve not familiar with the double strength phrase but it sounds like some form of pressing. Just my opinion. Lastly the glazing. In my experience you can’t glaze screened powder very well because the granules are so soft that they break down and become mill powder just from rubbing against themselves. Ask me how I know that! Hope this was helpful.
@@Everythingblackpowder thank you for the information. I'm going to try my best to replicate this powder for the pattern 1776 when I get it here and get it built. I've got some testing I've got to do with that rifle.
This has got to be your best video. I thought I was the only person on this rock to know this. I almost came to blows with a man over this years ago about this. My father, grandfather, great grandfather and a great granduncle loaded shells this way and my great granduncle made ammunition in the civil war for the south at powder mill near Jefferson Tx. (Black Powder) I still make my powder by the same formula/ method that has been passed down though years and it still works fine and I load by weight are volume with no problems. B/P is not rocket science. But it is a lot of fun and isn't that what we are lookin for?
Congrats on a multi million view video! Commentors can be a little set in their opinions. Today, one guy told me not to explore a video subject he didn't approve of "or else" it would physical in so many words.😃
I believe we have a bunch of Moes and their cousins Rons, running around who don't know the difference between black powder, and the substitutes. Sad that they are willing to spread false information about a subject that demands accuracy and reliability! Speaking of density, the Moes and Rons are very dense about the subject!
I’m no expert on the history, but does the volume of bp maybe have something to do with why they decided the arbitrary number 1/7,000 lbs would equal a grain?
The "grain" as a unit of weight has been around longer than gun powder from my understanding. It's actually the weight of a single grain of wheat or something to that effect, though it may be based on a different type of agricultural grain like barley, it's been a while since I read about it. Anyway, as time progressed, it stuck around as a unit of weight for small things. At some point, someone decided to weigh gun powder as opposed to loading by "meh, about that much looks ok", and out of obvious convenience, and because scales haven't always been $20 on Amazon, they converted the weight to volume. Modern reloaders often measure charges by volume, especially when they want to load a lot of ammo and/or load it quickly, but check the weight to make sure it's accurate enough at that given volume.
Facts, you're doing the Lords work sir! Also you don't get recommended in my feed I have to actually search you out. I missed your last 3 videos till just now FYI
Good video. Chemistry is hard for most folks, so they treat it like magic. This is where the dogma comes from. BTW, are you using the dry mill or CIA method on recent batches?
