@@chrisb4009 Except with the UK government grant, that's only £5k minus the zero cost of the gas standing charge, ~£90 pa, and minus the cost of a new gas boiler.
@@ianmurray250 The extra £10k was including the £5k grand. Re-piping, new radiators, heat pump, decorating/making good is generally in the £15-17k range. Vs the £2k range for swapping a combi,
@@chrisb4009 My recent quote is just over £11k, minus the £5k grant, so £6k, for the installation of a heat pump, new 32 amp feed, new hot water tank, 9 new radiators, removal of gas boiler, plus associated wiring, plumbing and making good. Existing pipework of the two pipe radiator system is about the only thing not being replaced. Combi boiler quote last Autumn was £5k, for a new boiler, new hot water tank, 3 radiators and associated pipework to move the boiler to a new site. Correction, now with zero vat (vice 5%), the heat pump price is just below £6k with the government grant. Needless to say, last night I paid the deposit.
I’d be interested to see a condensing boiler with large rads at say 40 degree flow or on underfloor heating properly sized ect and see the cost differences. All in. I do think there should be more training on properly sizing condensing boilers ect Heat pumps are getting people thinking of lower temps and insulation and better installs so I guess it’s all knowledge.
Hundreds of similar videos and they always start with the same caveat if the heat pump system is installed properly. Which makes me think there must be many systems which aren’t installed properly.
Great video! Heating engineer myself my argument would be heat pump installation/ savings a year compared to a installation/savings of a gas boiler doesnt yet make financial sense on a existing house
@@HeatGeek Gas is fairly clean from the carbon perspective (the EU classified gas as green, there are much worse energy sources like coal and oil still being used). If you have oil boilers or wood-firing burners etc then it's more urgent to replace them.
@@HeatGeek heat pumps contain refrigerants that also have a greenhouse effect!!! - Of all the heat pumps installed in 10-20 years, some of them will have various problems that will lead to the loss of the refrigerant gas from them + to dismantling (at the end of their life) due to the ignorance or ineptitude of the installers, another part of them will lose refrigerant gas .... Heat pumps have a higher installation cost compared to replacing a boiler... If the cost difference between the installation of a new boiler and a heat pump was used to increase the thermal insulation performance of the house, you would still end up cheaper medium and long term. + heat pumps keep breaking down and competent technicians for them are very few...
Today after listening to heat geek talk on steady state heating, I made the change to the controls. The building I am working on is in Nova Scotia Canada. The building has two parts, old and new, new built 25 years ago ,on a slab, original heating baseboard electric, then hydronic heating was added with the new baseboards placed on top of the electric , the main switch at electric panel is off and only on if there is a problem with boilers.each room has a heat link slow opening thermostat. The boilers are Gas condensing, domestic hot water is provided by two 60 gal indirect tanks. There is more, the Original building is a 100 year old Victoria three story with full unfinished non insulated basement. The room are fitted with large cast iron emitters . The new building was supplied with high temperature boiler water up to 180 degrees F . The cast iron with lower temperature water as the return water from baseboard is piped to manifold of cast rads and the return from these rads is piped to one of the domestic indirect and then on to the boilers.The building is used to house seniors who due to inactivity require 73 degrees environment. When I tried to use the outdoor reset control and the 54 zone valves everything was great until the wind came up and the outdoor control does not respond to the new target temp. required to replace the extra btu. that are blown out of the building. Therefore out door reset was not used. Today I set all thermostats to highest settings and removed the adjustment wheel. I put a wireless thermometer in the hall of the new building and the receiver in the boiler room . My next strategy is to put a RTU in the coldest part of the buildings so that I can automatically switch off the out door reset control and have the boiler ramp up to their high limits . When the RTU is satisfied the boilers will automatically go back to out door reset. Do you think this will work to keep residents happy and make more use of the outdoor reset. I was a machinist, then a millwright in a pulp mill working in their power 😊 house and recovery boilers, then taught machine shop at the community college in Springhill N.S , Ann Murray’s home town famous singer in the 60 . I then became a burner service tech for an oil company here in Amherst , did a few infloor heat jobs fired with oil. Electric and some natural gas, my two building I own are natural gas all have outdoor reset. The seniors home I am working on is owned by my brother in law. The tech around here want nothing to do with outdoor reset controls they told my brother in law that he would have to have them removed before they would service his boilers and systems. That’s when I put a switch in to shut off the out door control so that in the future he may find someone who likes these controls . Enough rambling .
Had my ancient boiler replaced three years ago. I’ve been on too many technological ‘bleeding edges’ in the past. Hopefully my current boiler will last until the HP relative prices fall and the industry matures and it isn’t such a lottery installation-wise. Meanwhile, I’ll keep incrementally and carefully adding insulation to my old house, hopefully avoiding an entirely different set of problems caused by another immature industry. What I really hope will happen is that seasonal heat storage technology will emerge to allow sun energy harvesting in the summer for use in the winter. I might even go full on bleeding edge for that.
Think it would be worth adding in here as part of the direct comparison the initial installation cost over an expected life i.e. boiler £3k installed, heat pump £8k (for easy maths, probably costs more) over a life of 10 years that is £500 per year additional depreciation cost for the heat pump - making it significantly more expensive than the boiler even if you get close to the magic COP of 5 when 3.5 is more realistic. Not checked availability of good engineers and cost for annual service but i would assume this is more for a HP than a boiler due to availability, parts also i would expect to be more and not in such easy supply. I think its a lot more reasonable to give a true life cost over 10 years for the 2 and not just running cost - its like comparing only MPG to chose a car and not taking into account initial cost, depreciation, service costs and availability etc, its just not how people decide (or should decide !}what to buy.
You make a good point, but of course one of the big selling points of heatpumps is they are generally designed to work much longer than gas boilers (combis). I was advised 20+ years for my heatpump, I'm in year 9 and all is fine. Gas combi's on the otherhand do have a more limited life span. I replaced one in a letting that was only about 8 years old after a fairly catastrophic fail. Broadly speaking we are probably looking at 2 combis for every heatpump. A specific cost for landlords is also roughly £100 per year gas cert, which is not required for a heatpump. In general, servicing for heatpumps is no more complex than combi's. Just filter cleans, general checks etc.
@@MrMax4music That's dependent entirely on the combos themselves, or even more conventional gas boilers. Exceeding 20+ years is not uncommon with minimal repair costs, regardless of "expected" design life. Now repairing a heat pump system if it fails can be quite expensive, and it isn't the easiest to find a suitable contractor to even carry out that work. We've run into this issue with commercial sized heat pumps after our initial service contract ran out.
@@donkey1271 The limitations of availability and choice of service engineers to maintain these systems is simply a result of their relative infancy in the market, and our slow uptake. Its a bit chicken and egg at the moment but it will sort itself out. Gas has had a century to do this. I would have though that you would be able to renew the service contract with the existing company though. I can only go off experience and manufacturers info with regards domestic heating systems. Most domestic combi's at least are built and fit to a price to be competitive in the domestic market. They come with a 5 year warranty, sometimes 7, and generally last 10-12 years but it depends on the amount of useage, whereas HP's are designed to run 247 so are built to handle constant use. I agree some gas boilers can last much longer but these actually tend to be older systems in the first place, that were built much simpler and robust. I have a combi that is over 25 years old, probably 30 and works well, But its less efficient of course. On an almost exact same property, I am on my 3rd 'modern combi'. Parts for Hp's are unreasonably expensive at the moment. but they arent really any more complex component wise than gas boilers, its just there is a limited market, so prices are higher due to small manufacturing runs and limited options meaning you have to pay the asking price. Its hard to find 3rd party parts. I had to replace fan in an IVT ashp. The fan had to come from Sweden, and cost £1000. In reality it was a £150 item. This will change.
@@MrMax4musicThe person advising you was wrong or lying, combi boilers have a much longer lifespan than heat pumps. You can easily see this reflected in the manufacturer’s warranty, heat pumps typically only get 5 years warranty, while 12 years warranty is now quite common for combi boilers. BTW my combi boiler is now 17 years old and still working away fine with just €300 worth of repairs in that time.
@@bk99911 Not really. I speak from experience. I have a multiple properties with a mix of ashp's, combi boilers and one with a gshp. Just coming up to year 10 on a hp. Had to pull out a combi recently after total failure. It did 7 years. Combi boilers can last longer. New condensing certainly aren't designed to do much more, old ones were better but they then are more gas hungry and lower Epc rating. The advice was spot on. Switching out all properties to ashp's to de gas, de carbonise and also saving on gas standing charges and annual LL gas certs.
Great video, heat pump is definitely the future. However, if you have an existing gas boiler that works just fine, it is not cost effective to replace it with heat pump just for that. However, if you have to replace the whole unit anyway or a new installation that doesn't yet already have any, we might as well go with the heat pump while we're at it.
Even if you have to replace an old gas boiler, it is still much cheaper than a heat pump. I was quoted €2500 to get a new gas boiler, while a heat pump installation was quoted as €12,000! Add the fact I’d need to get a bank loan to afford the heat pump with high and increasing interest rates, there is no way the slightly lower heat pump running cost would come anywhere close to making up the difference of the high upfront capital cost and financing. Oh also the. Yearly heat pump maintenance is 3 times higher than gas boilers in my city, so factor that in too. Frankly these sort of cost comparisons in this video are fairly useless, you really need to look at the total cost of ownership (TCO) of both alternatives. TCO looks at not just the operating cost, but all the costs, capital, financing, operations, maintenance and replacement costs. Of course this calculation might change in future if the gap between the cost of gas and electricity narrows, but for now it simply doesn’t make sense.
@@user-tb7rn1il3q Given you mention AC and furnace, I assume you are in the U.S. Neither of those apply to UK or Ireland. Firstly we don’t tend to use or need AC our summers don’t get too hot. Natural Gas is much cheaper here per kWh than electricity, usually by a factor of 3 or 4. We mostly don’t use furnaces to heat water, we typically use gas boilers to do it due to the lower gas price. Air to Air heat pumps aren’t common at all in this part of the world and they aren’t supported by government subsidy. The type of heat pumps being talked about in this video are air to water heat pumps and those are much more expensive then the US style air to air ones. I was quoted €12,000 to install an air to water heat pump, while replacing my combi gas boiler (which does both heat and instant hot water) when it finally breaks will cost about just €2,500. Every country has different conditions that need to be understood, different climates, different energy prices, availability of technologies both in terms of local manufacturers, suppliers and experienced technicians to install and maintain them, government subsidies, etc.
I will certainly be running these calculations on our new build. Probably the simplest and most comprehensive info I have come across to date. Thank you!
i had a 12,000 BTU minisplit installed in 2016 to cool and heat my first floor (650 sq ft). This is good to -5F but efficiency is best when your above freezing. I use it to heat on winter days mostly when it's above freezing outside, with a COP of 3 this is cheaper than my gas boiler (85% steam). The second floor tends to stay cooler but that doesn't bother me. 85% Gas boilers really don't take much maintenance, the high efficiency gas boilers do need to be thoroughly cleaned every year so they do cost more to maintain. Heat pumps also need regular cleaning but is something goes wrong the sky is the limit when it comes to fixing them. The parts are not cheap but the bugaboo is the amount of work it takes to diagnose what is wrong with a heat pump and that results in very high repair costs. In the NE area of the US there just aren't a lot of people who really understand these so it can take weeks or even months to get them working. If it's the only source of heat that can be a real problem so I would not depend on them as the sole source of heat in my area of the country.
I am in NE. 2 years ago installed 2 central air ACs for 1st and 2nd floor. I also have high efficiency condensing gas boiler. This year my gas bill peaked at $270 (heat, stove, and hot water). Now with $15k zero interest loan and $10k cash rebate I am thinking maybe its a good idea to replace my 2 year old ACs with heat pumps? I get $15k loan and 2 heat pumps can be installed for free or maybe $1k out of my pocket. (will copy to main comment section)
Using your example calculations with current price caps (1 October - 31 December 2022) from ofgem: Heatpumps: (2.5 efficiency) 4000kWh * £0.54 = £2160 pa (3.65 efficiency) 2740kWh * £0.54 = £1479.60 pa (5 efficiency) 2000kWh * £0.54 = £1080 pa Gas: 11111kWh * £0.15 = £1666.65 pa With a predicted 51% increase in Jan 2023, the gap is only going to grow.
Explained with a good balance between brevity and clarity. Possibly a little too much glossing over but I still recommend your channel. Note also that some subscribers may be more motivated by sustainability, in which case even a relatively "poor" HP installation is far better than a boiler. If the back of envelope calculations stayed on screen and scrolled instead of flashing up then disappearing they may be easier to follow.
We should also take into consideration the amount of electricity the gas boiler uses. It has pumps, fans and other mechanisms that also require electrical power and we must also add that to the anual costs of the system. How much would it be, aproximately? Is it actually that negligible as everyone only talks about gas consumption? Like to get an answer from the guys at Heat Geek! Keep up the awesome work!
I have noticed there are plumbers and electricians who are involved in installing heat pumps are becoming ambassadors and pro heat pumps! There are so many factors like installation costs, home insulation costs, electricity charges which have more than doubled, and if there are problems in the future only few can repair heat pumps and how much would cost, and what if power cuts off due to bad weather, and other issues! There were MPs and experts (before the Ukraine war started by few weeks) urged the government to increase fuel and gas prices to discourage people so they can ditch their petrol/diesel vehicles and to ditch their gas boilers! And now we see lots of videos praising heat pumps! Is this coincidence all of sudden? Some are paid to promote heat pumps, and some see heat pumps good opportunity to make more money than installing gas boilers! If the West never intervened in Ukraine, then many home owners would never consider heat pumps, and many petrol/diesel car owners would never consider Electric vehicles! That's the hypocrisy of the West and capitalism we live in! Lies, manipulation, hand twisting, facts hidden just like Covid19 lockdowns and the jabs!
So your saying there's a conspiracy to push heat pumps in people for some reason other than the fact they are 3-4 times more efficient than gas boilers?
How exactly would a gas boiler (electronics, pump, valves...) run if the power cuts off? At least you can always generate your own electricity in one way or another in case of an emergency (solar panel and battery setup in island mode, generator, connecting an inverter to your car...), gas however... Doesn't a tinfoil hat itch? 🤡
Both gas (petrol) and natural gas are terrible for our planet which is why most European countries, including the UK, have set dates for banning them. Nothing to do with conspiracy. Most folk just want cleaner AND cheaper heating. BTW if the UK's prime minister in 2015(?) hadn't banned on shore wind farms then the average electricity bill would have been £120 cheaper, why? because gas is so expensive.
Thanks for the video. Apologies if this was already discussed in one of the other 415 comments but there is a mistake in the video at 5.37 where it says 3.65 in the blue box but should say 2.5.
Two of the most important, but overlooked pieces of advice to seriously consider are: 1. Look at your insulation now - regardless of house heating system you go for in the future, a better insulated home is cheaper to heat. and 2. Consider solar PV panels - generating your own electricity to make it cheaper to power a heat pump and much cheaper to 'fuel' your next car Insulation will cost the average homeowner less than £2k. Solar Panels, around £6k
@@HeatGeek Yes I know, but seeing some of the comments we're about affordability, I thought it was worth making the point that these two items should be considered now as they are cheaper and most homes need insulation and many will benefit from solar PV. .
@@noelburke6224 Good grief, was that field size? In the UK, panels are about £150 each, the inverter £1,300 to £1,800, plus around £2,500 for ancillaries & labour
Rather than using your EPC (which may be out of date anyway), surely you can use the annual usage from the gas bill, which hopefully should give a more reasonable/precise picture, I would imagine?
Here in the UK, gas per kWh is about 1/4 of the kWh cost of electricity. Regardless of how well insulated the home is, it will take a particular amount of energy to heat that home and a heat pump would have to have a cop factor of 4 to be ever so slightly cheaper than the running cost of a decent modern boiler based on energy prices. The actual efficiency (cop factor) of the average heat pump is 250-280% though so not cheaper to run at all, quite a bit more expensive by comparison actually, in my country at least.
Our average installs are 4.2. Your talking about the price cap and not including cheap times. Your also not including the fact boilers are 85% efficient
What I'm not sure this takes account of the difference in space heating strategies between gas and HP. For example, in our Victorian semi with a combi-boiler we tend to turn off radiators in little-used rooms; but my understanding is that HPs operate most efficiently taking a whole-house approach and keeping it at a constant temperature 24/7. So switching from combi to HP isn't a "straight swap" as your calculation implies. Perhaps the combi-IR swap makes more sense cost-wise in cases like ours...
Really enjoyed this but i feel like your missing a layer out. If you also factor in the heat pump vs gas boiler installation cost (excluding pipework/rad changes if needed) how many years on average would it take for the savings from a heat pump to pay for itself over a gas boiler? I appreciated its not a straight forward question but if you took an average 3bed semi with 50mm insulated cavity, 270mm roof insulation and solid concrete floors. Is it 10, 15 years? i am not asking this to be awkward just a key question i imagine people will want to know
If you want a very rough idea of what I found for a 2 bed semi-bungalow. I know my usage from gas bills, I know my gas to electric rate 3.74 (fixed for 2 years) adjust that for gas efficiency as now = target SCOP of around 3.00. This should be achievable without changing too many things = parity in running costs . Cost to install HP £12,000 New Gas boiler £3,500 = £8,500 (your installer may get a grant to reduce HP costs under BUS by £5,000) I could choose to spend more on the install to gain more efficiency, I have solid floors so I'd be better looking at solar PV to power the HP at around £5,000 to install - giving a estimated cost of 10p per KW over lifetime costs (assuming you can make good use of the electric yourself over summer and not sell back to the grid) Gas usage now 15,054KW multiple .9 efficiency = 13,548KW divide 3.00 = 4,516KW Gas cost now 7.37p = £1109.47 + standing charge of 40.92*365 = £149.36 = total £1258.83 against electric for HP usage 4516KW* 27.86p = £1,258.16 (the parity position) Therefore take 10p from Solar PV multiple by 4516KW = £451.60 saving of £806.56 total investment over cost of gas best case assuming you can get BUS £3,500 for HP + £5,000 for Solar PV = £8,500 so 10.53 years if all prices stayed relative. If I did not do Solar PV it would be unlikely that a HP alone would pay back financial over the service life even with expected gas price rises for my property. I could choose to do it for ecological reasons, however to get low running costs I would have to make substantial capital investments.
You are exactly right. The installation costs mean it's not something that makes financial sense over the likely life of the system. Of course they will mention government subsidies that might narrow the difference. Governments don't create money so any subsidy is something us taxpayers will bear the cost of anyway. I'm looking at all options. I'll probably move away from gas but I'm unlikely to go the heat pump route. I'll look at other electric options that don't have the high install costs or the annual maintenance.
In the video time 3:04 Boiler Cost; you mentioned multiplying 10,000 by 0.9 and the graph states 10,000 divide by 0.9 which the latter is correct! Just correct the statement unless people not bothered and not aware!
gas is about 1/4th the price of electricity around here (around $0.11 per kWh of gas, about $0.45 per kWh of electricity), so a heatpump is likely not gonna be cheaper. but for other places its probably a great alternative
How does the COP hold up as the temperature drops? If I live in a climate with an average annual temperature of 1C can a heat pump still compare? How would I go about comparing the carbon footprint of heat pump to a condensing gas boiler?
Nice analysis and well presented. One thing that confuses me - is the seasonal cop weighted by time of year? If my cop is 4 in summer but 3 in winter then my effective average is much closer to 3 as that is when I am using the pump more intensively. Also, what about the fact that with gas it responds very fast so I can have a cold house overnight and during the day, and focus the heat in the mornings and evenings only. With a heat pump I can’t do that and have therefore a greater heating requirement over all?
Yes it's weighted for winter as its done on the average kw, not the average outside temp. With responsiveness, you can make a heat pump operate responsively but it just makes it less efficient, however so does a gas boiler which is why weather co.oensating gas boilers is now becoming the norm
@@HeatGeek thanks for the answer. My point on responsiveness is that with a gas boiler I can target the heat more precisely to when I want it and therefore need less overall kw of heating. So 10000 kWh of heat with a gas boiler might mean I need for example 15000 kWh with a heat pump, as it is needs to be on a lot more of the time due to its lower maximum power output. For those happy to have a cold home during much of the day and just having a few hours of decent heat each evening this is a big saving with gas and means another cost hurdle for the heat pump.
One thing an end user needs to take into account is their own psychology. Many people take time to get used to the lower flow temperatures and complain of being cold, because they're used to sitting in a convection current of higher temperature air. At which point it stops being about heating the property but down to personal comfort, and comfort unfortunately costs much more with a heat pump than gas if they want that same convection current from radiators. Once an end user gets used to the lower temperature and just walking into the house it feels warm, it becomes a non-issue. Though in houses already fitted with UFH a user won't notice a difference at all due to already regulated flow temperature.
Fortunately for us and many other good installers this is the same as when we first introduced weather compensated gas boilers ten years ago or so. As it makes such a big difference to heat pump running costs (compared to boilers I mean) it is easy to get the user on board with low temperatures.
@@patrickwheeler2646 I tend to find it did make a big difference when we first started with heat pumps and weather comp on domestic installs almost 2 decades ago, but as those people got older now in their 60s they've opted to go back to gas from heat pumps in many instances, or do away with the weather comp because they now feel cold even if the property is at 23c. That said I tend to find younger people once again are all for automated systems and highly money conscious so tend to opt for weather comp and smart controls in general. It does make me wonder if I see in another 2 decades these current young people opting to get rid of those automated controls too.
This is the opposite of correct. Lower temp systems are more comfortable at lower temps due to the increased radiant effect, less air movement, better heat spread and more consistant output.
Have considered a heat pump especially as I’ve 2 Tesla Powerwall batteries which mean that I have 27 kwh of energy at just 7.5 pence. This coming winter I’ll turn the boiler down to 50* C and see how the radiators perform. My only drawback is I’ve a microbore system! will it perform at these lower temperatures? The cost is another consideration, ideally being able to swap the boiler for a heat pump would be ideal. Perhaps in a few more years a better heat pumps will arrive that will make the change over easier.
Heat pumps don't have alot further to go, they have just made the biggest jump for a while imo. Micropore isn't relative to the temperature, but the power required. Its cade by case. We have a video on if you need bigger pipes or not.
@@HeatGeek Your the experts, but never say never. A pipe work upgrade is definitely a no go but I will try lower temperature on our system. There’s really only two rads that would need an upgrade the living room & kitchen dinner. The guest loo and entrance hall are oversized for the job anyway and as for our bedrooms they rarely come on even in very cold weather the rooms are 20*c. I recently fitted a Honeywell Home TRV system which has proved excellent. We also have an air conditioner in both kitchen and upper that could supplement the heating on very cold days if require. Retired now, I did install central heating back in the 1990s.
What would be the electricity cost if you would run a water heated floor central heating? Heating with electric water boiler, water temperature 35 degrees and return temperature not lower than 25 degrees.
we unfortunately inherited a 12kw nibe ground source heat pump when we purchased our home. It is costing £30 per day in electricity in winter and the house still doesnt get that warm. Heat pumps are totally useless at heating homes in winter. The water just doesnt get hot enough. We are ripping it all out and going back to the trusty grant vortex oil boiler that will actually heat water to a decent temperature. We are heading for a £900 electric bill just for december 2022 that is simply ridiculous Dont listen to the hype, listen to the people that are using them. A friend just self built a 3 bed detached and fitted a mitsibushi ashp. Hes running at £17 a day with a brand new highly insulated home. He also regrets fitting the heat pump now and wishes hed gone oil. Also a note to consider if you think you are doing it to save the planet...where do you think the electricity your using (absolutely masses of) is coming from? power stations burning gas and now even coal. UK in winter there is virtually no solar generation. Heat pumps are not the answer, save your hard earned money and stick with what you know works Also another point to note, Ive had Nibe service out to it 3 times in 12 months, soft start burnt out , then high pressure tripping, then compressor failure adding up to a bill of nearly £2000. Intial installation costs of £20000 recovered through the old RHI payments over 7 years which has now ceased. If I had paid all this without RHI payments I would have hung myself by now
Agreed, I’m in New Zealand and HP’s are hopeless in reality. If you have temperature in winter to -4c on frosty mornings they really struggle. Best heat comes from a flame. We leave ours going all the time in winter, for good or bad it just goes as we don’t have an alternate. They are just over hyped. Remember too it’s a different heat, turn it off and everything goes cold.
I didn’t know that and can say that after 3quotes 2 didn’t do an assessment so are not following mcs rules, none said how to increase efficiency other than roof insulation which was above 2022 levels. The two that were rejected said all the rad needed changing where’s the 3rd said they were all above btu levels already given the new rate turned 0.42p x 16004 (due to being solid walls without the possibility of insulation due to size usage is super high) an A RATED BOILER WAS FAR Cheaper to run at 6.5 p per unit it was estimated that a new condensing boiler would cut it to just 10000 units a year
Very useful info thanks looked at heat pumps for 3 years now but find it hard at the moment to switch will wait till gas boiler breaks or until the leve is reduced on electric as we are paying 40 p peak for electric but only 7 for gas and had quotes of 6-10£ k with the grant for heat pump in a fairly well insulated 1980 s 3 bed detached bungalow that cost about £200 last year in gas bill ! and find it hard to get reliable info on cost to run of heat pump even from companies that had done a survey and even done heat loss calculations etc
I’m about to construct a new build and have looked at ASHP, GSHP or a simple oil boiler. After analysing the pros and cons from all perspectives and in great depth, I have conclude that an oil boiler is the way to go at the moment. This will doubtless change at some point but heat pumps don’t quite cut it for me, even in a well-insulated new build.
@@MrMax4music A very good ASHP will have a COP of around 4 if you’re lucky but . . . That’s under ideal conditions - 10C ambient and a flow temp of 40C. When it gets really cold outside, say around 0. . To -5C and assuming because if this you want to increase your flow temps to stay warm, you will struggle to achieve a COP of 2. Your average oil/gas fired power station is around 40% efficient but a modern condensing boiler around 95%. Take this into account and a domestic gas/oil boiler runs with an equivalent COP of 2.5. Factor in the cost of maintenance and the relatively short lifespan of an ASHP plus the inflated installation costs and it just doesn’t make financial sense . . . Eco warriors only unless you have money to burn. If I am forced to go down the heat pump route by legislation, it will be a GSHP installation as more efficient, more reliable and longer lasting but as it stands now, a plain old vanilla oil-fired boiler will be just fine for what I need. 😉
@@ybliga Thanks for enlightening me. I have to say, I have fitted multiple heatpumps in both my own properties and others and I would dispute your logic. From what I can gather, as you are talking about oil, you don't have mains gas available. If that is the case, I cant think of any situation I would ever choose to be tied to a fossil fuel that needs to be delivered to me by truck. You are completely at the mercy of deliveries, oil price fluctuations etc, plus any increases in tax levies that will be placed on fossil fuels in the future. I can understand gas being considered if you are on mains gas. Boilers are fairly cheap and its a straightforward install, and they are very efficient as you state. But, if the build is being done to building regs level insulation or above, as it should be then a heat pump will be excellent, very low running costs etc. I would also question your stance on the short life of ashp's. In my experience, they last longer than boilers, due to lower flow temps. Also I live with a gshp in my house. Its fantastic (about 9 years now and I pulled out younger combi's than that, which has catastrophically failed), but broadly speaking, if I did it again, I'd go for ashp for ease of install and lower cost. Yes they are less efficient but that is actually for quite a tiny period of time across the year. Most winter days, I see my temp readings showing its maybe 6-10 degrees outside in the day, yet my gshp is pulling in a flow temp at 4-5 degrees. So my gshp is actually less efficient, most of the time! Yes it may get colder at night and efficiency may drop a little, but the reality is, the majority of the time (probably 85% of the year or more) an ashp is actually working with warmer environemnt flows than a gshp. Also, with a well insulated house, you'll only need 35-40c flow temps, perhaps 45c absolute maximum on the coldest of of cold days (I never have mine set to run this high though). Most of the year (when heating is required) it will be running at 30-35c and you can get COP well over 4. But at all these temps, the cop will be high. You have to remember that you ashp/gshp will be on 24/7 so simply runs tops up the flow temp as required, but the constant flow means really quite low flow temps. The reality is, if it is a new build, up to modern insulation levels, you are hugely overthinking the strain that a correctly sized and installed heatpump will take. It will do it a breeze, should last much longer than a boiler and you'll be futureproofed, you house will be worth more, you may be able to get grants to assist and you can always have solar pv which will reduce your fairly low running costs further. Its your choice, but from experience over many years, I would always pay the extra and go for a quality ashp install every time. Its also good for the planet. Best of luck.
@@ybliga Just to add, in a new build, you should be able to get a SCOP near 4 i.e. you seasonal average. Just do your insulating well and plan your heat embitters to work with low flow temps.
Hello, I wonder whether a high temp heat pump would heat up my 4 bed house + my son generally takes a 30 minutes shower every day, a long time I know but it keeps him happy. Will it produce enough hot water for both even in winter?. I have standard 10mm copper pipes leading to each rad. No bull please just straight forward facts.
It's well worth spending the money or having grants from the government to install more efficient insulation than a heat pump. If you live in a smaller house or flat, there's no way there's gonna be enough space to install all that stuff. Maybe when all the large components are reduced in size similar to how gas boilers did, then it's likely off the table for many. For example, I've seen some of the tanks that air source heat pumps use and they're as big as the old airing cupboard tank we once had, it's ridiculous...
What your average home owner needs to know is; 1) What is the cost of installing an ASHP vs Replacement Combi Boiler and 2) What is the payback period. The problem is that without incentives a lot of people simply cannot afford the upfront costs. The fix is to change the building regs to ensure that ALL new build properties have ASHP, solar panels, rainwater capture, and EV charge point as standard. This would not push up the cost of new houses, it would just eat in to the massive profits that housebuilders make. It won't happen. Sadly ASHP are, at the moment, for the well heeled middle classes who can afford them, as well as a big EV on the drive, because it is fashionable to be green. The same folks who can afford multiple holidays a year flying or on cruise ships.
Enjoying the videos, and the heat pump rabbit holes thanks :) My situation is a ground floor flat and I might be able to do a big renovation in the future, do you have any advice or links on retro fit and insulating? (the most important part - see I'm learning) :)
Sorry no.. but! A flat is easy! Because you don't have very many exposed walls you have low heat loss and will be easy to make work! Provided you can site the unit ofcourse. The very first step before all of that is a heat loss.. contact a heat geek md get them to do one woth a view to a layer heat pump
Appreciate the simplicity / clarity of the video. However, if looking at things only from a money perspective (and assuming gas / electric prices remain at similar ratios into the future), it would seem that you could spend 10-15k on a heat pump, and even if really well designed / installed, at best you’d be saving maybe £200 / year, and at worst, it could end up costing you a lot more to heat your home. The government is going to have to work a lot harder than that to encourage people to start installing heat pumps? I guess the easiest way would be to triple or quadruple the price of gas, but then that would have a devastating impact on people’s finances. I guess for people who are determined to reduce their carbon footprint (which I applaud them for), they will simply get on with this and sod the cost. However, 95% of people will need a lot more convincing than that? A difficult conundrum to solve with no easy answers.
The video was not to say heat pumps were cheaper to run. it was to shut down the people repeatedly saying they're more expensive to run. heat pumps aren't about saving money, they are about saving co2. They are far too expensive for the average home owner. the gov has to work harder, but they didn't invent heat pumps all they can do is give more incentives
Just like electric vehicles being more expensive that internal combustion engines vehicles, the same is true of heat pumps, BUT as production ramps up costs come down. It always hurts to be at the vanguard!
Do ASHP's have stages of modulation or are they completely variable between their min and max Kw outputs? What functional benefits does an arotherm plus have over a low modulating gas boiler in a well insulated low heat loss new build? I can't find the lowest modulation for a 7Kw Arotherm plus or the lowest flow temperature. Gas i can see its 1.9Kw and 30°C min flow.
Electric costs will be going up in October again 😩 54pence! My personal opinion is that this all stacks up if you go for a hybrid system ( air source and combi gas) with solar panels and mixergy storage tank then it’s worth while. But this system would cost close to £25k to £30k !! Too expensive for the average household. In conclusion- air source heat pumps will not save you much money around £200 per year compared to gas. It’s a big outlay only thing they will do it lower co2 (carbon footprint) that’s all. Does everyone care about carbon footprint, when we are in a middle of energy crisis and people struggling to put food on the table
if you are lowering your temperature to check if your house is heat pump ready then your efficientsy of your gasboiler is also going up so the price difference becomes much lower
'And the MCS installation company is required to make it perform to those figures' - Is that a throw away comment or is this legally required? How would a consumer follow this up if the quoted figures were not being achieved? and what figures does this relate to?! We have just had a quote where the electricity pkwh was quoted at 14p.... in an attempt to make it look more attractive. We all know this is wildly unrealistic. but if we had gone with this quote what recourse would we have had?
I have an interesting scenario where my grandparents house (heating system installed in the 80s) has mostly flat panel radiators which would require high flow temperatures. But my grandad has (and quite righly so) gone mad with insulation, with many rooms having triple glazed windows. So despite the design flow temperature probably being around 70c normally, the radiators can run a bit cooler (likely around 50c). The boiler which fires all this is an old backboiler behind a gas fireplace. This boiler (replaced like for like with a design from the 80s) has been going more than 20yrs now but eventually it will need to be replaced... Just what with, a gas combi boiler or a heatpump system.. I think likely a gas combi and then once that system needs replacing, consider a heatpump... I have a feeling we won't get 20+yrs out of a modern combi anyway unfortunately.
Great comparison, but.. I miss one thing; If i put my gas boiler on the same temperature level as the heat pump; what is the cost saving then? For example, set boiler temperature (for heating, not water) on 50, or 40 degrees celsius? I can't see any comparison with gas boilers set on low temperatures vs the investment of a heat pump... because, if your house is heat pump compatible, its also compatible with a low temperature on your gas boiler, so you can lower the boiler temperature from 80 celsius to 45 celsius for example.
It's wrong, no one with a old house should ever get a heat pump. They will not work with older brick homes. This is just a fact and everything is not cut-and-dry as people says. If you have an older brick home, the only way to stay decently. Warm is to have radiant heat. So you either have to have a fireplace. A stove, a boiler, anything with radiant heat.
The cost to run heat pump vs gas was so close in your example. That being the case why would anyone switch when the install costs are so high (much higher than gas central heating system). We have someone coming to look at our gas boiler tomorrow and if they say we need a new one we will remove gas entirely. I won't go with heat pump though for various reasons and people need to think about all options and look at their personal needs. In our case we already have an air conditioner that can also do heating. I guess it's like a air to air heat pump but it doesn't give us hot water. It wasn't expensive to install and it's efficient like you say so cheap to run. For my purposes I'd either install another in another room or look at other electric heaters like infra red panel heaters. Infra red are about 100% efficient rather than 300% but the initial outlay is much cheaper and no annual servicing costs. For hot water I'd probably buy a couple of under sink water heaters to taps in the kitchen and bathroom. When making a decision people need all the facts that apply to them. I'm certainly not sticking up for gas but the idea that people are going to spend huge sums to switch to electric heat pumps that will save them a tiny amount annually is for the birds. Personally I don't trust governments or utility companies. Goalposts have a habit of being moved to screw the public. An ideal situation is to produce as much of your energy yourself via solar. Of course companies want to sell you heat pumps at huge cost and insist on maintenance every year. For many in smaller homes with modest power needs the better option might be something less efficient but far cheaper to buy and replace.
You miss the point of the video. We aren't arguing that it will save a load of money just that the myth that heya pumps are always more expensive to run isn't true. The soul reason to install a heat pump is for carbon savings and carbon alone
@@HeatGeek It's not some myth about running costs that's stopping people. It's the high install costs and too many stories of the system not working properly once installed. When discussing costs it really should cover everything including installation and maintenance. Personally I'd be willing to have a slightly less efficient system if I can save myself huge install costs and annual maintenance. I'm highly likely to remove gas from our property but it won't be a heat pump that replaces it.
@@HeatGeek Possibly infra red panel heaters. The shower is electric and I could install cheap electric water heaters to taps in kitchen and bathroom for instant hot water for washing dishes and hands.
A poorly designed and installed heat pump could seriously lower a property value. Currently a risky investment. Keep up the good work Heat Geek 👍. Quality installations are key to making this technology viable for the masses.
6:00 This is the key part, which honestly I think we're all gonna struggle with in the UK. YES heat pumps have the capability of being cheaper, but the insulation of most UK homes is simply not there. That additional upfront insulation cost is gonna really hurt people (especially the most vulnerable in our society), if there's not support from government to get houses up to scratch. That, or they're going to have to use loads more fuel to keep their place warm, which will likely cost more than gas. And I'm saying this as someone who DESPERATELY wants a heating alternative that isn't burning stuff. I know you tried your best to explain those factors at the beginning, but it really can't be overstated how behind we are in terms of that issue. We can't come at this fabric last.
It isn’t just the cost of insulation that needs to be addressed. After I had IWI fitted last year to the coldest two rooms of my house I have a list of issues that will put off the average householder taking the plunge. Even now, with energy costs rising massively, the stampede is towards PV and battery storage, not much more disruptive insulation measures.
Don't forget the standing charge, if you get rid of gas, you save that, but you must pay standing charge for the electrical supply - unless you have solar and a battery ! But who would have their electricity removed altogether. You want it as a backuo, or suppliment.
How would you adjust the calculation for Oil boilers, when fuel is prices are pence per litre rather than kwh. Also how would you factor in the electricity used by the boiler to run, on top of that?
@@HeatGeek So just to break this down; 10,000 ÷ 0.9 = 11,111 11,111 ÷ 10.35 = 1073ltr (Oil Required) 1073 x 0.63 = £675 (Cost of oil per annum based on average my average oil price over 12 months) 10,000 ÷ 3.65 = 2739 2739 x 0.33 = £903 (Cost of heat pump per annum based on my current tariff) How would you calculate the electricity running cost of the oil boiler?
@Aaron Harvey oil boilers will be more like 80 to 85% efficiency. As as electricity cleans up is gets cheaper.. oil is only going to go up due to carbon taxation.. government imposed or not
I watched your video with urban plumber, the additional cost of huge radiators and the fact it doest produce as much heat as a boiler. For example I fit alot of boilers within the Asian community, they want rads to fire up to 50 degrees, they like their houses like sauners lol. A heat pump will just not produce that type of heat unless a huge amount variations are done to the system. Hence I feel the cost for a heat is far greater then a boiler
Heat pump only work well when you don't have much demand. So instead of putting money into a heat pump if you put it into insulation you could drastically reduce your nead for gass ?
BUT in the case of your 10,000 KWh demand example even with a SCOP of 5 the savings between gas bill and the power bill is still only GBP 300 a year - lets say the installation costs GBP 14K less a subsidy from the government of GBP 7500 means that your payback on your spend (6500) is 21 years - it doesnt make sense to make the shift even at the highest SCOP
I have never received any paperwork or certificates of any sort. I paid fro an energy survey £150, and not received or government repay. The company was Smart Energy and they fitted a Diakin Altherma system and never explained anything.
If we had teleportation portal technology then we could just open a portal between our house and deep underground near the equator and the difference in air pressure would just blow hot air into our homes.
No it's on you for employing a shiny haired smooth talking double glazing salesman in a cheap NEXT suit that uses fixed price subcontract labour to fit your system 👍
If the apparent underperformance reveals a poor installation then the responsible installer should make corrections. Beware of performance estimates derived from EPCs, these can be inaccurate (as Adam mentioned in the vid) and can often underestimate the energy requirements (some viewers will know from RHI disappointments) which in turn will provide a lower running cost estimate. Also, check what room temps the system has been designed for, eg bedrooms can have a design temp of 18 deg C, but some homeowners prefer higher...and this comes at a cost. So many factors effect running costs! ps. - great vid Heat Geek , keep ‘em coming 😀
Same question for me. Additionally if the heat pump is off all summer can I expect issues getting it going again. Was told heat pumps must be left on all year
Sure.. but why would you do that at a 100% efficiency when you can run a heat pump at those times woth 300% effy? Heat pumps are starting to come with solar inputs too
@@TheJimurq Sure.. but why would you do that at a 100% efficiency when you can run a heat pump at those times woth 300% effy? Heat pumps are starting to come with solar inputs too
Your suggestion is stupid as if you look at any manufacturer or installers advice they all say that you will probably require secondary heating for the colder months of the year or for higher temp hot water so most would have the common sense to keep their gas boiler so you will still pay the standing charge. The public need to realise that the push to get your gas boiler out is all to do the energy suppliers finding that the cheapest way to produce electricity is to burn cheap gas and then sell us the end product (electricity) at six times the price of the original gas, nothing to do with saving the planet just plain and simple GREED.
What do you mean? It's already been happening with heat pumps for 10 years. It's all due to lack of training. Something is being done about that though
I think that heat pumps are way to expensive and not for all properties. and that that the government should subsidize home owners for paying companies that are specialized in setting up you're system correctly. Most people are not that technical i did it myself whit some help from RU-vid and saved more than 50% of my gas usage. that's 50% less co2 and there is the problem. paying a shit load of money for a problem that can be fixed in a few hours. even your channel gives good information about that 👍
Exactly and for some of us who work from home we can use the solar instantly during the day. Moving away from gas might be the right choice for many people, they will save on the daily standing charge for one. I'm not sure the heat pump is the right choice for everyone though, mostly due to high installation costs.
Instead of manually calculating the demand, would it be incorrect to do the following? 1) Take my estimated gas usage which is 29,699 (We have an induction hob so my gas usage is purely heating and hot water). 2) I know my boiler is 89.2% efficient so I can calculate that my theoretical demand @ 100% is 26,491.508 kWh (29,699 x 0.892). 3) I can then use this to calculate the running cost of my heat pump I am contemplating buying since I know the SCOP 4.51 @ 35 C or 3.58 @ 55 C
I believe that there has been an independent survey recently which shows that heat pumps cost more than gas boilers to run! Given that energy costs are rising again this year will the higher electric costs be even more?
Sorry, can’t find it now, it must have been taken down, but it was in the Telegraph. It stands to reason though that heat pumps which it seems must run for a longer time to heat the house will be more expensive than a gas boiler which can heat the house quicker. Electricity is more expensive by far than gas, and even allowing for the extra efficiency of a heat pump gas must be cheaper? In those properties that have been fitted with expensive heat pump installations and claim a saving, I think it may be down to the fact that before they were leaky and wasting heat etc. Now they are well insulated and aware of heat losses they are seeing a ‘saving’ because all the necessary work has been done - but at an expense the average person simply cannot afford.
@@HeatGeek Only if gas costs over 1/3rd the kWh of electricity is what you say correct. As it stands its just not true in the UK at least to say heat pumps cost less to run, gas is 1/4 of the cost in kWh to electricity and HPs are only 280% efficient.
For the average home a heat pump would not make any financial sense in fact if the home is not very well insulated it would never heat the home to an efficient level also the installation cost is very expensive for the average homeowner and most people don't realise that they will need their radiators changed to ones 3 times bigger to have any chance of throwing enough heat out to warm the home . People would be better off spending their money fitting new double glazed windows and doors and getting good quality insulation fitted throughout..... 👍
I have central heating pump running all day on 3port valve, just powerflushed system now the customer says pumps running when not calling for heat. Any ideas.
Is there a different running costs if you are using a combi condensing oil boiler compared to an ashp and cylinder or a heat battery for water which I now you have one
Giving theoretical figures is fair but in realty these things cost considerably more to run also bear in mind you will have to use the immersion to get your hot water as needs to be above 55degrees for water safety legionella For a normal house with radiators they will have to be considerably larger taking up massive amounts of wall space I have customers wanting these removed as and alternative put in place either gas or oil boilers Add to the issue if the ambient temp drops below 5-7 degrees the running costs almost empty your bank account Great in principle but not in reality I have also found as said insulation a big factor so only really work in a new or tight house
Very important question. Legionnaire disease. If it breeds in warm water and and heat pumps run at low temperatures for high cops then what is to stop it breeding in the hot water storage tanks? I know we won't drink the water but if you shower in it you are at high risk of being exposed to the disease.
@@HeatGeek Thank you for the super fast response. Leads to another question. Where does the hot water come from? Sorry if I am asking stupid questions.
@@Engmaths101 the heat pump.. its what's called got water priority, it goes high yempnto hot water. Once cylinder is up, it moves to low temp heating. Most heat sources should do this not just hps
@HeatGeek Could you please do some videos featuring some customers who have had heat pumps for a couple of years? The lack of actual testimonials makes me suspicious.
Great video. Question If I may. So we have a Calorex heat pump which is 10 years old this summer. It was installed into a brand new one off build house where environmental factors were taken into account (this was a condition of planning permission at the time). For years we have used it all wrong (treating it like a gas boiler), but over this year (since watching your excellent channel) we have used it as it is supposed to be use. Early indications are warmer hot water, a warmer house overall, and lower running costs (will need this winter coming for more evidence, but it is looking good so far. So you you talk a lot about efficiency. Assuming our install overall is OK (including use of double or triple radiators in some rooms), how does the age of our heat pump unit effect overall efficiency? Is it the control system, perhaps the compressor or maybe the refrigerant? I know the unit has two compressor units - is this standard nowadays? I often wonder what I would do if the unit failed. And / or if I were to think about replacing the heat pump with a more modern unit, would the gains be noticeable given the costs.... Mark.
@@gittin_funky For some time treated like a gas boiler so instant hear for hot water and space heating. Now it runs all the time and just kicks in and out as heat demands, much cheaper now.
@@gittin_funky It is on all the time for hot water and space heating, but the compressor is not running all the time. In the summer the compressor will only run for hot water - for this we force it to run at the warmest part of the day as that will give the best CoP for hot water.
@@markramsay6399 Thanks again; that is very helpful.I had assumed heating water through the night when tariff is cheaper, but heating water during the warmest part of the day makes sense
In the aroTHERM Plus chart, the 10kW version gets a higher SCOP than the 7kW version regardless of flow temperature - I believe this is because it has a larger evaporator and dual fans. Ignoring physical size and initial price, if your heat loss suggested that the 7kW version is sufficient - Is it possible to use the 10kW unit instead and if so what must change in the configuration? Higher flow rate?
Of course, fortunately now the BUS grant pays £5k of the bill so people only need to find £10k in the sofa. Although yes it is still only open to richer people it is a step forward from the RHI which required you to have it all up front and claw it back through quarterly payments over seven years.
Given that EPCs are notoriously inaccurate (Better Building Partnership's research has shown there is no correlation between EPC estimates and actual energy use and that's on 10,000s of m2 of buildings), there's still a huge risk in getting your calculations completely wrong especially if the EPC is 100% out. How do you mitigate against that?
So I’ve got a Victorian two up two down semi detached houses three occupants is a heat pump going to be more efficient than my A rated combi ? Or will I have to have a large cylinder installed and heat that up every day.
You’re asking the wrong question. Efficiencies quoted with heat pumps are a snapshot in the operation of the equipment taken at an optimal point. I think the question you may have asking is, would it be cheaper to run than a modern gas boiler? And that is where the story starts to look less compelling. I could get much cheaper electricity all year round if my neighbours and I installed a nuclear reactor. If you ignore the installation costs.
350% efficient all year round or just when the outside temp is above 20 degrees. As for carbon footprint all the materials that go in to these systems are they all carbon neutral. And the gases that go into these heat pumps is that good for the environment?
@@paulhockett1545 350% average.. higher when its warmer and lower when cooler.. where looking at annual costs here as seasons vary annually. You can load you cylinder at night oo which you will be able to access cheaper rate electricity
I cannot understand how a heat pump can heat hot water only unless it is running all the time whereas for the 4 months of summer when using a gas boiler it is ONLY switched on for maybe a shower once a day at a cost of about 15p. So how can a heat pump cost lessthan this if running all the time?
