Funny, but also really sad scene. Shows Bojack's hurt and anger with his mother, but also this scene is his mother reliving the trauma of her father burning her "baby" doll as a child
"worthless waste of my husbands jizem...." ah... so she really does despise Henrietta still... when i saw it the first time i really did think she was talking bojack down as bojack himself.
I feel like another reason she convinced Henrietta to give up Hollyhock was also a way to get back at her for sleeping with Butterscotch. I know she also meant well, and in the end it did work out for all of them, but I also feel like that was at least a subconscious motive
@@rosiequartzie2230 Beatrice has a very complex relationship with Henrietta. She does hate her, she loves her dearly, she wants the best for her but she also clearly wants her to feel bad. Beatrice is just a toxic person even at her best.
@@rosesweetcharlotte I agree. I feel like Beatrice feels some sympathy for Henrietta because they are being tied down to a worthless man. Beatrice doesn’t want Henrietta to be trapped in the same unfortunate situation and wants her to have the freedom to reach her goals in life.
The Octopus Movie in her mind that’s why she took Hollyhock from her. Henrietta was too young and not financially stable enough to raise a child. Plus she got pregnant by Butterscotch, who Beatrice thinks poisoned her life
Julia 713 I think Beatrice hated herself more than she hated BoJack. The only reason she hated BoJack was because he reminded her of her own failures so when she took Hollyhock she did so because she thought it was the right thing to do mainly because it gave Hollyhock a chance of having a good life (something I feel she wanted to give to BoJack but hated that she couldn’t so much that she ended up transporting that hate over at him).
In case you all were wondering: They give older patients suffering with Alzheimer's and dementia little baby dolls all the time in nursing homes. For most of them, it helps them go back to a better time in their lives: when they were parents since they tend to forget alot of things but one thing they never forget to do is how to love
Oh my god, the foreshadowing in this damn show. I don’t know if anyone else caught it, but listen closely to what Beatrice says while they’re fighting over the doll, “You worthless waste of my husband’s jizzum!” She could easily be referring to her son, but in mind, she still thinks BoJack is Henrietta. Beatrice was LITERALLY referring to when her husband got Henrietta pregnant and she had Hollyhock.
Right? The best misdirects set up more than one viable explanation for the clue they throw out. And if they’re REALLY good, you don’t even think twice about it when the clue drop.
I think the most terrifying part for me in this is that Beatrice doesn't see an a doll that's being thrown off the balcony, but an actual living baby. In her eyes, she sees a child being murdered, reliving a trauma of her early life. That really got under my skin, even before we learnt about her childhood trauma.
But it's not. She's reliving the trauma of her baby doll being burned, not a real baby. That was just a doll. But that was a traumatic incident for her, so when he threw the baby doll she probably saw her baby doll being burned in the fire. Also this was, although slightly messed up, totally understandable on Bojack's part. Like really, what the fuck?! His dying mother treats a DOLL better than she EVER treated her own, real son? That's fucked up whether she remembers it or not, and Bojack's response is TOTALLY valid. Was it the best course of action? Of course not! But it was understandable.
@@carrotandpeas She makes a lot of call backs to Henrietta's pregnancy, which was long after her baby doll was destroyed. I think in her mind the baby doll is Henrietta's baby, and somehow shes made a reality where she herself takes the baby. Afterally, tossing a baby doll in the air and dropping it would be no reason for her to fret like she did. Maybe its her minds way of trying to make a last attempt at being the mother she should have been.
I can also see the argument that some dementia patients do think the baby dolls are real..I had one tell me to take her baby because "you and that damn baby are going to drive me crazy" and another who ended up on the floor because she was trying to tuck her baby in.
He most likely thought of her as a ‘victim’ of his presence in her life supported by the constant stream of self-degradation in the episode. The sad part is he’s not wrong.
What makes that more twisted because Sarah lynn wanted to be an architect, she could've been portrayed with greek or victorian visuals because that's what she wanted to be, instead he remembers her for how she died.
One thing I noticed during this scene is Hollyhock's body language during the conversation. She would take glances at Bojack and then at Beatrice like, "Oh my god. She did that?" She clearly heard what was being said. However, she knows that Beatrice has dementia now and only knows the Beatrice that's an old lady. She can't help but feel sympathy for her which is kinda understandable for someone who doesn't know the whole story
@@user-vr8ve6rt9c the bear doesn't know that, though. the bear is caring for older, sickly people and she sees this able-bodied asshole treating them with cruelty.
The thing about Alzheimer's is that for some people when they can't place someone chronologically they place them by emotion. and here is really shows. Beatrice views Bojack and Henrietta the same way, as someone she resents because of her husband.
Thanks for sharing this! There’s so much about dementia I don’t know, but it does make sense that people with dementia would revert back to responding to their surroundings emotionally, much like babies do. Your comment does give more context to her “worthless waste of her husband’s jizzum” insult. At that point, she really could have meant that to apply to Bojack AND Henrietta.
Even though Hollyhock was doing right on supporting Beatrice, seeing her as an "old, poor and sweet" lady because that's how she is acting right now, it gets on my nerves that she protects her at some point, even though she is going to be drugged by her, possibly because she didn't see or dealt with her like Bojack did all his life.
@@SuperWolsey nope, Beatrice tells Bojack directly that she was drugging Hollyhock with the weight loss drug. the drugged coffee was intended for Hollyhock the whole time
@@SuperWolsey Beatrice has this very outdated idea that women must be beautiful at all costs. She was given diet pills from a young age and used them to stay thin. The thing is, despite her clear hatred of both Henrietta and her complex feelings about Hollyhock, she also seems to love both of them. She really did think Hollyhock was a beautiful girl who just needed some "help" staying thin, so she drugged her.
In Hollyhock’s defense, she has no context for how terrible Beatrice was, and her only reference of it was how Bojack (someone who is pretty unreliable and tends to paint himself as the victim a lot) would recount to her, and he didn’t really go in depth about it. All she sees is a grown man mocking his dementia-addled elderly mother.
If there is one thing I’ve been taught in my entire life is you never try to be awful to your mother no matter how awful she was to you, it was such a petty way to get back at her why would it matter all of a sudden when she’s an old elderly lady to be mean?
Yeah, except she was suffering from dementia. She didn't understand what was happening or who was around her, it just aggravated her trauma. There was no lesson to be learned or acknowledgement of consequences of her action or ability to process it. It's sort of the equivalent of beating the shit out of a paralyzed person because they were a piece of shit to you. They might have deserved it but you're still an asshole for doing it.
When she says"Give me the baby back you waste of my husband's jizzum" its weird to think she's not talking about how butterscotch got her pregnant but how he got Henrietta pregnant. And that she still thinks that's Henrietta and that's something she would actually say to her.
I know BoJack wasn't completely in the right here, but as someone who grew up with a neglectful and abusive mother, it's hard not to side with BoJack on this one. It's still Beatrice's fault she's the reason he hates himself. The bad shit Bojack does is him. But disliking yourself and acting as if you failed the two people that were supposed to care about due to them actually hating you makes sense. Beatrice is the cause of him being like that. Kind of a shame that we live in a world that blindly makes excuses for mothers.
There's a huge theme of cruelty begetting cruelty in this show, but they also show how after a certain point/line you have to start becoming accountable for some of your actions as well. Still a pretty grey area there. Beatrice was unmistakably cruel to her son, but at the same time she experienced her own cruelty and unfairly turned it on Bojack. One good reason why we need mental health professionals to try to assist damaged people to not pay it forward.
ripelivejam what makes it not ok is that the woman Beatrice was, is not that fragile old woman with dementia. Beatrice was a strong but incredibly cold and cruel person. All that was left of her with dementia was a shell that wanted to protect its baby.
@@anubis7457 and that's what makes this scene actually fucked up, and not Bojack getting back at his Mom. Because for all intents and purposes, she was already dead
I can totally understand you. I felt good and relieved when he threw the baby out. I was like "YEAH! Serves you right!" And while watching the episode afterwards I was thinking to myself that Bojack, the asshole of the show is actually less of an asshole than I would have been. As I most likely would have gone about my business proudly. This shows that Bojack is hurt, but he still wants to love his mother. As later heard in Free Churro. He until the last moment hopes that they could forgive each other and share at least one happy moment. Unlike Diane, I believe in deep down. At least to a point of intention. And during this whole episode Bojack suffers to get the doll back, even when his rage and anger was totally justified.
@@markkocsicska2590 as someone who has actually had the closure and gotten to have that moment where all is forgiven and there are happy moments, I can say it actually makes it a little bit worse. Because it makes you wonder where the fuck that was when I needed it. Perhaps I'm coming at it from the wrong angle but that's how I see it.
bojack expressing his anger on the doll because of the awful treatment of his mother is actually understandable,yet i don't know why i feel bad for beatrice too 2022 edit: It's been years and this comment is still pumping with likes..wow
Because she’s at a point in her life that she can’t fix what she did wrong and she might not even remember it clearly. And she seemed to think the doll was a real baby to some extent
I’m not the biggest fan of Beatrice (although I think she has one of the most interesting personalities in the show), but her scream of pure pain will be engraved in my mind forever.
"Bojack, don't-" "Do *it* " Note how the dialogue transition is framed as though Bojack is finishing Hollyhock's sentence. He's aware that he's about to fuck up again, with the consequences that come with it, but follows through anyways, then feels like shit upon the immediate regret. Meta as fuck.
coming back to this scene after time's arrow just hits so... different. it's like, you can see both perspectives and they're both equally so heartbreaking. one one hand, you have bojack who is still seething with hate and resentment towards his mother, and seeing her give genuine love and care to a doll when she couldn't give it to him for all these years naturally makes him angry and rightfully so. but for beatrice, she doesn't see this as just any random doll, but as a connection to her childhood and past. so when bojack throws away the doll, beatrice just re-lives that traumatic moment all over again. this scene is fascinatingly crafted and gives the audience such a brilliant insight into two very different characters' lives, who have both been affected by different forms of generational abuse and trauma
I think this scene is quite impactful, because we feel sympathy for Beatrice because she sees that doll as a real baby and is essentially witnessing it being murdered, but also we are more connected to BoJack and his story, knowing she did not treat him right, and might feel a mean satisfaction when he's proving that point - probably how he feels having done it anyways. I think that's really cool
Seeing the doll being thrown and Beatrice’s reaction forshadows what happens In Time’s Arrow when her father threw her doll in the fire. I feel like at this point, she’s having flashbacks of what her father did to her “baby”. Someone in a position of power harming her psychologically. At this point, Bojack is in a position of power since Beatrice is suffering from dementia and I feel like she’s hallucinating him as her father when he throws the doll.
The way you phrased it made things worst, she did relieve her trauma of her dad burning her doll but hallucinated BoJack as Henriatta so she also relieved the moment when she took away Henriatta's baby and that reminded her how bad of a person she is and in Time's Arrow we know how much that impacts her (the memory litterally stops here with a scream from Henriatta)
People in the comments keep saying weather “Beatrice deserved it” or if “Bojack was being cruel” but tbh I think this scene was kind of showing how horrible their relationship is. Bojack is furious after seeing Beatrice ‘mother’ the doll when he never had a good mothering moment from her. And Beatrice is reliving trauma after seeing him throw it off the balcony. So I think it’s not about who’s in the wrong I think it’s more that they’re both wrong for each other.
Although I feel for Beatrice's life, I feel for her past, I _do not_ respect her. She took her child, who was a WILLING child, and emotionally and even sometimes physically neglected him. I understand that she was miserable as a young mother and wife with an asshole husband but she is a truly terrible witch despite her past. I even wept during Beatrice's flashbacks. Even Beatrice herself recognized how much of a terrible mother and person she had turned out to be. She may be a well-constructed character but I do not respect her.
Even with the reveal of Beatrice's childhood, she still had the chance to be better. Todd said himself to Bojack that it doesn't matter if he took Drugs or Alchohol or even his childhood, he still could be better
I still feel so bad for BJ when he saw his mother give all her love and support which he didn't receive in his childhood to an inanimate doll.Also,when he felt terrible,Hollyhock couldn't understand him and was on Beatrice's side.
I can't help but feel a little for Bojack. Having a parent not give a singular fuck about your existence, only to finally buckle up and be a parent to someone else when you're grown, it fucking hurts. No matter what you try to tell yourself and rationalize, it's gonna hurt like hell, and piss you off.
0:34 I think she was starting to understand it a little bit, if not question what he was saying with how specific it was. The way she looked from one to the other & then possibly began to understand, but at the same time probably doubted it due to how Bojack's mom is currently. She probably couldn't see her as such a horrible parent to him.
Yeah. This is why I'm no contact with my parents. My anger would make me act out like this if I was around them.It's better for both of us to not be in the same room.
Thing is that we as the audience know and understand why bojack did this. But hollyhock and tina dont, they dont know about the horrid things beatrice has said and done to him as a child, there is no context for them, all they see is a spiteful 50 year old son who upset his dementia riddled mother for no reason.
That’s super shitty. BoJack wasn’t punishing his mother; he was punishing - or rather _mistreating_ - someone old, dying, and with no idea as to who he was. What good did it do him? What good does seeking vengeance do anyone?
Bojack wanted to get back at his mother for loving doll more than she loves him. But Beatrice isnt the same woman that raised him. Instead, he Just retraumatised an old demented woman who cant even remember what she did for the past years. She doesnt ven know Bojack is with her right now. She thinks Henrietta is Just acting weird all of a sudden. She sees Henrietta. Its understandable why he wants to make his mom feel bad. She hurt him. Badly. But the only person he had a chance to hurt and did hurt is little girl trapped in an old woman's body. Thats what Beatrice is now. She doesnt remember the event that made her such a terrible parent, she gets to expiriance parenthood without the dread of genrational trauma but what she did wont leave her be. Karma didnt get her when she was healthy, so now she suffers when she is an Almost different person. At the end, they both are victims and abusers(not only to each other, but to others as well). Neither's actions can be excused, but it sure hurts when you understand them both. And just to add, poor Holyjock! She probably gained trauma herself while living with the two. They arent exactly the best caretakers. Far from it...... (not giving spoilers away)
How scary how the tables turned. Bea abused and neglected BoJack as a child and he never quite knew why. Now BoJack is causing Bea pain and she has no clue why.
Took me way too long (until now) to realize “waste of my husbands jizzem” was referring to Henrietta, but bojack thought she was talking about him. Also love the “it’s true, jackass”
part of me feels bad for her while the other part of me knows damn well she had it coming. You can't always get away with abuse because sometimes your past will always comes right back at you that way. People may not always remember what they did for you and what they did to you, but they will always remember what they feel about you.
Hollyhock can’t ever really understand why Bojack did this. All she thinks is “I get his childhood wasn’t the best, but that can’t ALL be true, right?” She had 8 parents shower her with nothing but love, affection, and encouragement for 18 years. Bojack didn’t even get one parent to do any of that for him. Edit: Just one example of what I mean: Beatrice: Don’t you dare cry, Bojack. Hollyhock’s dads: Don’t feel bad about feeling bad.
It’s so easy to feel justified doing a bad thing to someone who it feels like ruined your life. But then it all comes back to reality when you realize you still HURT them and you didn’t ever really want to hurt them. You just wanted them to recognize how fucking much they hurt you.
Out of all the terrible things Bojack has done, I have a hard time blaming him here, albeit it's still cruel, especially from the audience's perspective of knowing about her trauma.
@@carrotandpeas ok dude we get it we watched the show thing is we're talking about Beatrice not Bojack, She thought that the doll is a real baby and that Bojack threw a real baby off his balcony
@@carrotandpeas Imagine that Beatrice is mentally unwell and you still think that she deserves Bojack's revenge. Even Bojack realised his mistake at the end. Your values are worse than Bojack's. LOL.
@@flyingpenandpaper6119 lol no I just hate abusive parents who, on purpose or not, makes their children feel the need to treat them with any semblance of respect after what they've put them through. Might just be the fact that I have experience with abusive parental figures, but it just really irks me when abusers get a pass because of their own mental issues. It doesn't matter if she's "mentally unwell", she treated Bojack like shit his entire life, and I personally feel that it wouldn't be undeserved for her to be treated like shit in return. Though that's just my opinion.
Part of me thinks she was so upset that doll was thrown because one her dementia brought our another side of her that we taken as a child...but also...notice how doll looks very familiar to something precious that she lost AS a child...her doll
I wouldn't say that Betarice 'deserved' it, because that just flattens everything down to a petty game of emotional revenges but... she definitely had this coming. She practically caused this to happen. Is Bojack being a mature enough person to think about how him being cruel to the current state of Beatrice means nothing?No. But you also have to consider the fact that one of the main reasons why he failed to develop a decent personality is the traumas that Betarice literally shoved into his brain, 100% intentionally, too. So you know, when you plant an apple seed you get an apple tree. When you plant a pear seed you get a pear tree. When you raise your kid to be a self-centered prick with tons of unresolved childhood traumas, you get this. It's that simple. I feel terrible for Hollyhock though. Yikes
As much as I don't like her, she doesn't deservce this treatment while her mental state is like this, hes essentially torturing a confused old woman, not the woman who hurt him
@@Pedro-ux2de That makes you evil, because the woman who hurt him is no longer there, she is a shell of who she once was, basically a soulless punching bag for your baggage
Probably what I'm about to write is an unpopular opinion... at first the scene was funny af for me when he started juggling the dolll around, but after seeing beatrice backstory later, her traumas and how she suffered, I felt really bad for her. I know she wasn't the best mother to bojack, but seeing her that vulnerable and crying made me sad...
Trauma is an explanation not an excuse. You can feel bad for her, but its also important to acknowledge that she put Bojack through a lot and there is no excuse for that. Bojack was completely valid in this scenario. He wasn't right to do it, but it was understandable, totally valid, and even expected tbh.
@@turgburg4890 no. Neither of their traumas were excuses for how they reacted. It's understandable why they reacted as they did, but not okay. And I feel like it's also worth acknowledging the dynamic of a mother and son being different than a situation like this between just two people who know each other.
I don't understand why people are claiming she deserves this when she is literally in a state of mind that makes his actions cruel as hell. She doesn't know what she did to him anymore, she doesn't even remember who he is. His actions aren't getting back at her, or teaching her a lesson. With dementia, a person reverts to a different time in their life and gains almost an innocence. The fact that people are reveling in her suffering is the opposite of what this show wants to teach us. I literally have empathy problems and I was able to see this. You are all letting your emotions blind you.
@Optimus Prime I do understand him, and no abuse is never justified. If you think that harming the mental equivalent of a child for past actions is "justice" then I pray that you aren't alone with anyone who hurt you when they find themselves in a vulnerable state.
This isn't about "teaching a lesson" thing, but more "I despise that person and I want them to suffer, as much as they caused me to suffer", aka it's about revenge.
Bojack: *Goes on a tirade about how Beatrice mistreated him throughout his childhood and never gave a shit about him before throwing the doll over the deck* Hollyhock: "Why would you do that?..." SERIOUSLY???
@RandomFanatic Go ! Well, see that's where the line is I guess. I just don't agree. I see no difference between the two. God punishing sinners by sending them to hell is taking revenge for them not doing what he wants them to do. You can also say Bojack punished Beatrice with mental torture by throwing the doll for all of the years she wronged him without remorse. It's the same thing.
Beatrice abused Bojack but that woman with the Alzheimer's is literally a whole different person in the brain. A whole different stranger that loves and has compassion for children. So it's like he harassed a split personality version of her that hadn't done any wrong. He hurt the wrong version on bea and he didn't even have to make the effort to do this because this took her back to her father burning her baby in the fire.
Yeah,she deserved all of it. Alzheimer's or dementia or just good acting, she is STILL Henrietta. And nothing will ever change that, nothing will ever justify or "Thanos snap" away what she CHOSE to do to Bojack Did she ever apologize? No? Then she still deserved it. Period.
@@DragonGoddess18 you're just a toxic and obnoxious idiot with no prespective. Beatrice's mental instabilities and demeanor are the result of the enviorment she grew up in. You're basically saying Bojack is to blame for being in a bad environment growing up just as bea is to blame for what she has to endure with her father. You already know Bojack never apologizes no matter how much he laments on how much he sucks. He'll always think he's excused cause of his parents. Do you just watch all these clips and pieces on RU-vid? You outta actually watch the real show.
I don't understand people who feel really bad about Beatrice. Yes, she had crippling dementia, and what? This is what she get's for abusing Bojack all those years. "But her childhood!!!" Childhood doesn't excuse her being a bitch to her CHILD it's entire life. She even was self conscious of being an "awesome mom" to Bojack. She could've easily stop being abusive, but she just chose not to. Stop being apologetic towards abusers, because they *can* stop being abusive at anytime and whatever *they* had in their life doesn't excuse shit.
Fucking thank you. At least Bojack, asshole he is, recognized her Fucked up the moment he was done. Not that this wasn't a LONG time coming. By all rights he should've dumped her on Skid Row and washed his hands of her.
Although I don’t condone what Bojack did to Beatrice, I understand how he felt and why he did it. He was abused by mother as a child; no love or support. In the present, when she talks about being caring and supportive for her baby doll, i understand why he feels upset.
I feel that Bojack throwing that doll over the edge was all his inner anger for how his mother abused him over the years He was right though, she was treating the doll better than she ever did to him
It's 50 years worth of repressed anger and resentment all bubbling over at jealousy of seeing this bitch-hag treat a plastic toy better than her own son.
The scene really shows just how much Bojack depends on Diane and why ultimately Spoilers Their friendship fails so miserably he was way too dependent on her and she was never really the type to say no so it made sense that their friendship wouldn't last
All these comments are about how Beatrice deserved it - but this isn't Beatrice anymore. It's a husk of what she used to be. What use is it to make a demented old person suffer for something they can't even remember?
This scene brought back a lot of memories of my mom telling me how ugly I look. Or how much problems I gave her....ah good memories, at least i know which cemetery plot to shit on when im on a bender
I feel bad for Beatrice, I understand that she abused Bojack, but she has dementia, when you’re caring for someone with dementia, that isn’t something you should do. It will make their life worse. The best thing to do with someone who has dementia is to keep them calm and make them happy, even if they don’t remember you. Sure, Beatrice is an awful person, but Bojack is in the wrong here.
This scene makes me so horribly sad. I know he’s angry and has every right to be but now he’s abu$!ng Beatrice. Hell, I know he doesn’t know her trauma, but Beatrice’s scream is heart wrenching. I’m not defending beatrice’s former actions. But this is a different Beatrice than who Bojack grew up with. Dementia changes a person. Fear consumes them, remember they don’t know where they are sometimes, they don’t know who they are sometimes. I know I watch my loving warm nanny(dad’s mom) become a silent shell afraid of the world and her surroundings at 12 years old because of Alzheimer’s Plus Hollyhock is right there, she’s a seventeen year old girl, watching her older brother abu$e his mom. This plus what happened in the nursing home would have been enough to for me to never speak to BoJack again
I had zero sympathy for bojacks mother here tbh. She had a bad childhood and decided to be horrible to her own child. Not excuseable in the slightest, she never cared for him so she deserves what she made him out to be
