Box Fill Calculations with New 2020 NEC Changes in Grounding Fill 314.16 (B) (5)

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1 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 170

@toolsteel8482 3 года назад

Enjoy your tutorials, how you calmly explain a subject and back it by the code book .

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks! Yes, "back it up by the book" would be a good motto.

@OTRosas 2 года назад

Scotty Kilmer’ brother is an electrician?

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

LOL!

@markchidester6239 2 года назад

That's scary

@nelsonrubiano7102 2 года назад

😂 that’s exactly what I thought!

@3muchaag344 2 года назад

I was wondering if I wasn’t the only one who thought these 2 sounded way too identical 😭😭😭 and you can tell they both love what they do! Admirable!!

@RobertSmith-lw2bx 2 года назад

@@nelsonrubiano7102 me too!!! 😂

@justinsaunders785 2 года назад

So basically each ground is 1/4 allowance. Why do they try to get fancy and tell you the first four count as 1 allowance. 1 divided by four is .25. 1/4 in decimal is .25. NEC are masters at trying to complicate the simple things in life. Maybe I’m missing something here. I dunno.

@fritzmiller9792 2 года назад

Haha, good point. I didn't think of that but it is obvious that the code could have easily just called for a 1/4 allowance per ground as you said.

@andrerodriguez8132 2 года назад

wow thats so true, they must know to make it difficult for the average person reading the book

@Self_Evident 2 года назад

"So basically each ground is 1/4 allowance." Not quite. That is true only when the number of grounds is 4 or more. For a box with only 1 ground, the allowance due to grounds is 1. If the box has 2 grounds, the allowance due to grounds is still 1. Same for boxes with 3 or 4 grounds, 1 allowance regardless. The 1/4 math only kicks in when the ground count is over 4. But yes, a convoluted mess of a "system".

@dansanger5340 2 года назад

You should get to subtract for using Wago 221, and have to add if using a GFCI.

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

Makes sense to me.

@littlehuey5679 2 года назад

I think they just come up with this sizing to keep their jobs !

@MrTooTechnical 3 года назад

Amazing vid. In fact u should make a vid on how you would wire this entire box with everything u mention with pig tails and wago lever nuts. Now that covers a common scenario.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Hmmm. let me thing about that one. Thanks Dave!

@briangoodale7167 2 года назад

I've been an electrician for 40 plus years & experienced every code update and they still can't come up with a way to simplify this. How about the manufacturer provides a document stating max # of wires with what-ever devices your using. Nobody calculates this in the field. Good electricians plan their residential box layout with box fill in mind so they can install devices easily.

@briangoodale7167 2 года назад

I did like your video Sparkey, real eye opener to how complicated it can be for a electricians to comply to the letter of the NEC.

@Bluesman57 3 года назад

Another great video as usual! Michigan is currently using the 2017 NEC (adopted Jan. of 2019) I have always wondered why multiple grounds only counted as one volume allowance, but I go by the codebook. I try to use boxes with larger volumes, instead of the minimum required.

@joemaldonado3 3 года назад

nice! how ever I expect a cram jam on some jobs due to poor wire placement inside the box....

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

I hope not. Thanks Joe!

@kenbrown2808 3 года назад

for people interested in a cheat mode, many manufacturers will also mold a chart of allowable box fill with #14, #12, and #10 conductors inside the box. you still have to count allowances for devices and grounds, but if your box says "10 X #12" then it saves you the more complex math - you know you can have three 12-2 cables and a receptacle in the box. if it says "8X12" then you can't.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Excellent point, thanks!

@samuelt2072 3 года назад

Fine. It may pass inspection, but is it worth it? How about the time spent figuring this out, and carefully packing all those wires, connectors, and devices into one four square box, with a mud ring, when the sensible option (if available) is a second box location (with one device each) giving you more room & able to do the work quicker? I don't like filling a box to the max... too frustrating.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Hi Samuel! It was just an example to demonstrate NEC box fill rules but I do understand your sentiments.

@sparky0288 3 года назад

The wire nut don't count as box fill?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, that's right. I know, it does sound odd.

@stephanreuben5330 3 года назад

😜saved by the mud ring sir. Thanks for the video.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, saved by the med ring! Good one!

@IndustMachWerksofTX 2 года назад

I don’t think half the people wiring homes in Texas follow any of these rules. They follow rules at the panel, I don’t think the inspector cares about the rest.

@ZackaryTwiddles1 2 года назад

Shits getting stupid, not your video. Code reductions are really moving beyond safety to revenue generation for manufacturers...

@Pkkct 2 года назад

You are 100% correct. Was thinking the exact same thing

@rubytues4u 2 года назад

I find its easier to remember if you just count each ground as 1/4

@silversagerae6353 Год назад

This could get you in trouble. IE if you only have 2 14g you would count one whereas code requires you to count that as 2. 1 up to 4 14g grounds is 2 then 1/4 for each thereafter.

@Jeff-Lawrence 3 года назад

Hi Bill from Sparky Channel Absolutely fantastic video today Probably my favorite one yet Really enjoyed watching the math as you added up everything and what counted and how. Learning a lot from you and appreciate all your effort I’m really wondering about those built in tabs now and if they should be included or not; on a mission to find the tru answer now. Thanks for sharing your knowledge

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Hi Jeff! In my internet search about 50% thought the integral clamps should be counted as box fill and 50% said no. I think it's best to count them to be safe but if you find something different please let me know. Have a great day!

@timdouglass4934 3 года назад

Thank you for making a straight forward easy to under stand well made video.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Tim, my pleasure!

@Patrick-pl8wv 2 года назад

What about a wire nut on the grounds? That takes up space too.

@LuisSanchez-jp8gi 3 года назад

So lets say there are only 3 ground wires would it count as 1?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes.

@isb170swap8 3 года назад

I have one question for your box. If you put 2 pigtails off the ground wire to each device do you need to add 2 more of the 1/4 allowance on box full?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Look at 4:31 and notice it only talked about ground wires entering the box. Since pigtails don't enter the box, they are not counted in box fill.

@ronsbeerreviewstools4361 2 года назад

Very informative post, this electrcian learned something.

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

Glad it was helpful!

@myles1147 2 года назад

What about wago/ wire nuts and pig tails?

@ayuse01 2 года назад

I'm a master electrician, and i can tell you that this box fill is all bullcrap to give the sense of a controlled trade regulation. It's all blatant logic, you put too many wires in your box, well you can't fit your dimmers or whatever is voluminous afterward. Simple as that. So if you are not able to visualize this in your mind, then maybe you need a code to dictate it to you. ( And i don't talk to you directly Sparky :) )

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

Thanks Patrick!

@GoatZilla 2 года назад

Yes, most homeowners are not able to visualize this in their minds, that's why they need the code to be able to verify what the tradie does. Simple as that.

@TheGregWallace 2 года назад

Comment......And folks wonder why the world is all screwed up..........This is a perfect example of making things more complicated than need be. Nothing against you sparky.

@fritzmiller9792 2 года назад

Great job Sparky !! Thank you for the fun walk through. I missed that new 1/4 allowance for over 4 grounds. Honestly, never heard anyone claim that the internal clamps should be counted but I see the logic. Of course, if the manufacturer listed the capacity one would think it accounted for the clamps.

@richardcranium5839 3 года назад

it might pass but if you're using wire nuts it'll be fun getting it all stuffed in there!!!!

@wim0104 3 года назад

mmm... add some smart switches or GCFIs!! that type of box clamp takes so much space away :-/

@kenbrown2808 3 года назад

it'll be a pain no matter what splice you use.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks!

@RaggedsEdge 3 года назад

Nah it’s not gonna that bad if your organized about it and using the proper minimum length of conductors.

@kenbrown2808 3 года назад

@@RaggedsEdge no, those boxes are a pain. The only people who think otherwise haven't used good boxes.

@bravobanks 10 месяцев назад

Hey thank you so much for such an informative video! You made it really easy to explain!, as the code kind of makes it confusing to understand what it’s referring to at times.

@SparkyChannel 10 месяцев назад

Glad it was helpful!

@wouldntyouliketoknow9891 2 года назад

Ok this formula for calculating box fill is just incredibly stupid. The result of the calculation is basically a random number and has no correlation to actual fill. This is the dumbest thing I have seen in NEC.

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

OK, thanks.

@StraitClownin909 2 года назад

Every single apprentice across the country is taught this crap, literally being tested on this exact stuff tomorrow.

@wouldntyouliketoknow9891 2 года назад

@@StraitClownin909 I mean, I understand that there had to be some kind of formula, and it has to be simple enough for trade craft to calculate in the field without a lot of effort or fancy computer program. But still, this particular formula I can't fathom what the author's were thinking. Why base it on the largest conductor? That's gonna hurt if you have one big conductor in a box with lots of little ones. Box clamps count whether they take up any space or not. Some grounds are worth a whole and others are worth a quarter. Main power panel can't possibly pass this test, as it has like 40-80 conductors coming in typically, but 3 of them are 1/0 or bigger.

@scotttribout1150 2 года назад

Do wire nuts and other forms of connectors have a fill value?

@ScottShayAKAFifty50g 2 года назад

Why did you count internal clamps in a nonmetal box?

@robertlitman2661 2 года назад

Exactly. The integral non-removable "clamps" must already be subtracted from the manufacturer's stated volume.

@kpdvw 2 года назад

Love to use deep boxes....

@GoatZilla 2 года назад

Sounds like a good opportunity for someone to write an app.

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

Yep!

@ncooty 2 года назад

@4:32: Deletion or just an edit? Very unclear what was deleted or why the highlighting was disconnected. Not a very helpful section. Overall, the NEC seems written for people who write the NEC (or for the benefit of folks who publish actual English translations). It's often unapproachable, unhelpful, or unclear.

@stephenholland6328 2 года назад

The NEC is written so it can be enforced by inspectors.

@ncooty 2 года назад

@@stephenholland6328: There's no excuse for bad technical writing when it could and should be clear for as wide an audience as possible, including electricians, handymen, maintenance workers, homeowners, etc.

@fritzmiller9792 2 года назад

I think it's a challenge to word any rule that can hold up to misinterpretation but the Code does sometimes seem to get mired down in traditional wording that attempts to match previous code explanations.

@kodymidwood4693 Месяц назад

Fantastic video. Idk why yokes and clamps tripped me up but they did. Great job explaining them

@blacksheeple2187 2 года назад

Plastic sucks- good luck packing all that 12 gauge in there without a hammer. The NEC is a nice book of minimum standards, hey they gotta draw the line somewhere…doesn’t guarantee a quality installation though. Lol I like good old article 110-12. It should have a FPN that says. Don’t be a hammer…If you end up with a splice point for some reason with 5 wires in it. Use a metal box and only enter it from 2 sides. WWNTD? (What Would Nikola Tesla Do)

@normferguson2769 2 года назад

As he was talking about the ground wire calcs I was like you and thought I would need a hammer to get that 12 gauge flattened into the back of that box

@stefenmorant4778 3 года назад

However, if the receptacle is being installed in parallel, and isn’t the final device in the run, then it will require a jumper for the grounded conductor, which would bring the box full up to 38.81, meaning the box would end up a code violation. Edit: Jumpers that do not enter the box do not count, disregard.

@donmclean1220 3 года назад

Are you referring to pigtails in the box? I’m not sure they count, as the do not enter the box from out side.

@stefenmorant4778 3 года назад

@@donmclean1220 Rats. You’re right. That also means I’ve torn apart a few boxes that I didn’t have to. At least I know now.

@50srefugee 2 года назад

Another niggling little detail. Thanks, NEC! I'd love to know what provoked this change. Now delete the approval for backstabbing. And an honest Thank you! Sparky, for working through a non-trivial example so clearly.

@peterfong8777 3 года назад

Thanks 🙏

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Peter!

@icevariable9600 2 года назад

Something I just learned from the Excellent Laborer was that single gang boxes have knockouts, where the double-gang boxes have the internal clamps. So, with single-gang the knockouts don't take up any internal volume but the double-gang with internal clamps take up a single volume allowance.

@RobertSmith-lw2bx 2 года назад

I’ve never enforced the clamps in plastic boxes only for metal boxes. Never looked at them as “clamps”. I don’t know if any inspectors are interpreting it in this way.

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

They are integral clamps but I'm sure that some inspectors don't think of them as clamps.

@RobertSmith-lw2bx 2 года назад

@@SparkyChannel ya I don’t enforce it. I look at it no different then a grey carlon boxes that have a smaller, kinda pinch type clamp. Thanks.

@court2379 Год назад

@@SparkyChannel Wouldn't the volume printed on the box already be reduced by the volume of the clamps and therefore not need to include them?

@walterbordett2023 3 года назад

So the box volume calculation on a box made and sold with integral cable clamps does not subtract volume available based on the presence of those clamps?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Actually that is debatable because the NEC is not clear on that issue. Because of that us electrical contractors have to treat integral clamps like internal clamps just to be safe. So I do count them as one volume.

@RaggedsEdge 3 года назад

Yeah I always figured the box manufacturer would have accounted for that volume in the stated CI. Guess we could contact Carlon.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@RaggedsEdge Good idea.

@subaruwrx5701 3 года назад

love your videos great job 👏 👍 👌 🙌

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks so much!

@DanielJLindberg Год назад

Perfect explanation thank you

@darnellbourassa1081 3 года назад

This guy is my gateway to my ticket 👌🙂🙂

@Caliber8Tools 3 года назад

Thanks for the education

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

My pleasure, thanks!

@Marcel_Germann 3 года назад

Grounds are conductors too. But they are not "active conductors", that's the reason they don't count in. Active conductors are only lines and neutrals. A PEN, a combined ground and neutral (in the US called MGN) is also not active, even if it carries operating current it is also a ground and carries fault currents. That would also not count in, if it would be permitted in final circuits, which it is not in the US.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Marcel!

@keithweilacher4890 3 года назад

And here I always thought ground wires weren't counted against the allowed volume was that they were unibsulated.

@Marcel_Germann 3 года назад

@@keithweilacher4890 In the US are three colours permitted for the indentification of the ground wire: Bare copper, solid green insulation or green/yellow striped insulation. The last one is international. In Europe only green/yellow striped insulation is permitted to identify the ground wire.

@lqdxoni1 3 года назад

safe

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks!

@junyue678 2 года назад

Thank you! it helps me so much!

@dominickpaul Год назад

You're making this too complex while it is quite simple: 1) A Carlon 34cu box is labeled as able to take 17x 14g wires, which are themselves 2cu. 17 x 14 is 34, meaning Carlon themselves did not count their built-in connectors. 2) No manufacturer would force an end user into accepting 4, 6, or even 8 non-removable "internal clamps", and 3) it's obvious Carlon would not include in it's cu capacity non-existent box. Metal boxes have a cu and their internal clamps are within that cu, i.e., metal box exists behind the internal clamp.

@RyanElectric1 7 месяцев назад

Thanks Sparky!

@Cesarbelle832 Год назад

Why did he add the cubic in for the mud ring ??

@SparkyChannel Год назад

The square inches of the mud ring counts as well.

@tommycho9068 3 года назад

Thank you again, sir.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

No problem, thanks Tommy!

@thedom1678 3 года назад

Your videos are great.

@robfahey1349 3 года назад

Its probably a silly idea and weird question and I'm not even sure it works, but would a metal metal ring on the plastic box violate any code? I only ask because I prefer metal as you can tap new threads when a drywaller or etc lose the 6-32s and replace it with a drywall screw or I've even come across just wood screws with torx heads. I generally don't like the plastic boxes though yes they are cheaper, quicker installation, and can reduce your bid for a job making it more lucrative to secure a job, I prefer metal boxes for the reason that its easy to tap new threads and they are more solid. I've come across just going in to do a simple device replacement, swap, or even fixture and the plastic box crumbles and the threads break and strip and then have to be replaced which adds time and inconvenience and extra cost to those jobs. It would be weird having a metal mud ring on that box which I have to say I've never used or saw before this video, just the single gangs and triple gang boxes that have their individual placement of devices with their assigned screw placements.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Hi Rob! I would normally say no on the metal mud ring on the plastic box because it normally can't be bonded. However, if you were to use a devise(s) with a self grounding clip and the devise was properly grounded I think that would bond the metal mud ring so in that case I feel that it would be OK. Good luck finding an inspector to OK it though. LOL!

@robfahey1349 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel yeah that was my only thought haha that it would be an issue of bonding and would be flagged by an inspector

@hyagosilveira987 3 года назад

@@robfahey1349 you can bond the metal P-ring with a ground clip. Do it all the time

@MichaelDHockenberry 2 года назад

@@hyagosilveira987 So the ground clip will firmly, properly and completely bond to the more or less curved area of a plaster ring? I’m going to have to try this…

@hyagosilveira987 2 года назад

@@MichaelDHockenberry to answer your question, you’d use a ground clip on the plaster ring to bond it. Placement of the ground clip is your choice. I find it easier to attach it on the curve of the plaster ring where there’s no screw taking it’s spot

@lukeleon9687 Год назад

Gods work🙏🏼🙏🏼

@--JohnDoe 3 года назад

That was a good one bill. Good example.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks so much!

@Matawitepui 3 года назад

Greetings, your videos are very good and explanatory, thanks for posting them. I have a question, can I put a 20amp GFCI on a 15amp circuit?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks! No.

@hyagosilveira987 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel actually you can. If the device is rated for 20 amps, being on a 15 am circuit won’t overload the device. It’ll trip at 15 amps Max. However you cannot do the opposite. You cannot use a 15 amp rated gfi on a 20 amp circuit. If you Maximize your circuit let’s say 19 amps, the breaker will not trip however your device may burn out because it’s only rated for 15 amps

@hyagosilveira987 3 года назад

However you can use multiple 15 amp gfi’s on a 20 amp circuit. This only applies to one GFCI on a circuit.

@StraitClownin909 2 года назад

You can always overbuild beyond your ocpd's(breaker) you just dont want to put a 15amp gfci on a 20amp breaker. In the same instance, you can always use 12awg wire on a 15amp breaker just not 14awg wire on a 20amp breaker.

@fritzmiller9792 2 года назад

@@hyagosilveira987 check out the video Bill did on the subject. I think you will be surprised.

@petercampbell4220 2 года назад

@nick76dune 2 года назад

Thank you for posting this.

@SparkyChannel 2 года назад

You're welcome!

@benjaminkline4855 2 года назад

Forgot to add 2 quarters for the device ground jumpers

@justinsaunders785 2 года назад

only ground that enter/leave the box are counted, a jumper never leaves the box. I'm not telling you that it makes sense either, thats just how it is.

@50srefugee 2 года назад

@@justinsaunders785 I believe that the rational is that conductors which do not enter or leave the box cannot affect the total power running through the box, which is what would cause heating.

@justinsaunders785 2 года назад

@@50srefugee no argument there but if we are minding box fill due to heat that tells me (along with logic) that the more volume consumed by matter be it devices conductors etc the less available air for heat dissipation. Pig tails and jumpers would be adding to that total mass and taking away from free air for heat dissipation. The whole premise of box fill rules seem hypocritical to me.

@lancerudy9934 3 года назад

Nice . Thanks

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Thanks Lance!

@tranduoc3896 10 месяцев назад

good video thank you

@SparkyChannel 10 месяцев назад

No problem, thanks!

@TheCompton1963 3 года назад

6:10 internal clamp?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

Yes, one volume fill for internal clamps.

@williamwallace6255 2 года назад

Do you have to include any wire nuts in that calculation too?

@beenesgarage2055 2 года назад

Wire nuts are not counted in box fill calc

@Monuments_to_Good_Intentions 2 года назад

Yes, wire nuts are counted from what I read.

@beenesgarage2055 2 года назад

@@Monuments_to_Good_Intentions Wire nuts do not count in box fill calcs.

@jonathanruiz3108 2 года назад

@@Monuments_to_Good_Intentions they're not

@salvadorlara4128 2 года назад

👍

@anthonyhitchings1051 3 года назад

how painful for the sparkies to dealwith this stuff

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

LOL! It's really not that hard. It's like when someone explains football rules to someone who has never seen a game. After a while it all makes sense.

@RaggedsEdge 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel it’s not difficult but it does seem unnecessary. Why is there box fill rules anyways? I always assumed it was for heat dissipation. So why would they change the rule for ground allowance then? If anything the extra copper would be a heat sink no?

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@RaggedsEdge Yes, it is for heat dissipation. And yes, the copper of the ground wires would work as a heat sink until the moment they are needed as conductors in order to save the day.

@RaggedsEdge 3 года назад

@@SparkyChannel forgive me. I tend to enjoy a good discussion/ debate. I mean no disrespect by it and just like to make sure the code is being updated for the right reasons. I would argue that since the grounds would be no warmer than the current carrying conductors before an event, and that whatever event happened that would cause the grounding wires to see current, that it’s going to be a lot of current over a split second. Would that 20c warmer starting point (arbitrary number) really make a difference to an uninsulated wire? Maybe I’m just assuming that those wires are going to only see current in an event like a lightning strike or complete failure of the neutral wire and or circuit interrupting device. At the end of the day, no matter, it’s in the books. Thanks for helping explain it.

@SparkyChannel 3 года назад

@@RaggedsEdge I understand. Thanks!

@ccnp1053 2 года назад

Hey Sparky, Am I the only one who thinks this box FAILS meeting the requirements?? The box size is 32 cu inches and with the 5 conductors, mud ring, 5 grounds and two receptacles you have a total cu inches of 38.1 38.1 is more than 32 so it is a FAIL... right??

@GerstBladeworks 2 года назад

No, the mud ring adds 6.1 cu in to the total box area. It's close but she passes. I wouldn't stuff it that full but that's just personal preference but sometimes you gotta do what the drawings say to do if you aren't permitted free reign over design changes regarding the electrical drawings.

@jeepsaround Год назад

I’m a first year and in our commercial work they jamb pack most boxes with so many wires it’s very hard to fit them all with the devices or tightly fit blank covers without devices. Then I actually fill a box properly and it seems so empty. Sometimes packing conduit probably 90% which is more of a hindrance costing more in labor than we would save by upsizing. They just tell me it’s what the drawings call for and what our office designed so that’s what we do.