Came across this on reddit. Really well-produced essay. Brave was above all else a failure to pick and solidify a direction. I've always known that but I've never seen it so eloquently explained. Keep up the good work.
What disappointed me is the inconsistency of magic in the movie as well as the problem with the plot progression not really making sense. They should've used the same type of introduction for the spell and magic as they did in Beauty & The Beast or Sleeping Beauty, and used it during the start of the movie. Also, I fully expected that Merida would have to use her mother's teachings and remember the things she tried to learn her in order to save her mother from society's vengeance in some way (the common enemy), but doing it by mixing in her own skills because she has yet to learn everything. It wouldn't be a perfect plan and it would require her to think it through more than usual. On the flip side, her mother should also go through the same development by realising how she's passing on the societal oppression to her daughter and that it's keeping them both from progressing, and that she needs to teach her the realities of life but actually be there for her as well. In the end they should've fought their common enemy together and both learned difficult lessons, especially how to empathise with and respect each other, in order to "win". The bear plot could've worked if they had done it better, but it felt misplaced because the plot was lacking. It annoys me how it could've been so much better, especially since it was already good. They should've made the movie a little longer and they could've shown your perspective easily throughout the film together with consistent magical elements as well. I'd watch a remake of this movie in this way. I wish they'd make one, and I don't understand the movie industry's reluctance towards remaking movies with great potential.
I never really thought about the movie in the way that this video portrays it, but now that I have thought about it, I understand. This was an hour well spent
cus the bear part was disney, pure disney only the first 15mins you speak, they had makers kept in a room, then they were let out and made the rest of the plot
The really funny thing is: I clicked on this video being absolutely like "how in the world can that movie be disappointing it was great" and then realized I had completely forgotten the bear plot. My memory has deleted that entirely
@@lautaroroldanpizzorno7494 Frozen 2 was a more cohesive story that isn't going to quite cut it for the mainstream. Elsa's sense of not belonging due to what made her different and needing to discover the truth about her own life is something many people deal with in real life. It's a part of depression for many people. Those who haven't had to deal with these issues personally may not get that, and that's fine, but for many who have, this is a story that cuts deep. I can see, though, how for a lot of people it would miss the mark. I went in expecting it to be meh, and found it cut to the core of my being because of how much I understood the pain and sense of non-self she had.
I love the bow burning scene so much, just the way she immediately turns to pull it out, crying and covering her face because her anger has subsided and she realizes she lashed out to hurt her daughter instead of teaching her. God damn, I’m so sad this wasn’t the rest of the movie.
Given the director's background, it would've been interesting to see how this movie turned out without any of that bear stuff. There's barely any calculatedly told movies where you're forced to pay attention for really getting it! You know what I mean?
I know right? It's such a damn interesting premise. Seeing a daughter trapped by tradition under a mother who sticks to it because she believes it's best for everyone. Obviously that marriage will be annulled by the end, but *how would we get there?* Such a disappointment that we didn't get to see it
That really is the best scene of the movie it’s the point where both characters frustration with each other reaches its peak and they’re tired of each others shit and deliberately hurt one another and the moment of regret from Eleanor afterwards? Ugh it’s perfect
I feel like we all forget who the intended audience is. This is a kids movie. Some of these scences can be hard for kids to sit through. Yes, serious dialouge and family dysfunction is awesome to see and relate to when addressed so well in any movie. But for a kid? You think they wanna see their life plastered on a big screen? When I was younger I would have hated the movie if it were as serious as yall want. And Im not saying I wouldnt enjoy such a route now. But what I am saying is kids dont want to see their trauma with their parents basically animated and retold. Adults do because we understand those straightforward and nuanced lessons. But for kids those lessons need to be watered down in a way that would make sense and add some magic to the process. I have seen many replies saying they absolutely loved this movie as a kid but realized how "meh" the plot is now that theyre older. But that is actually exactly how the process was intended. Youre basically complaining that the audience is kids and therefor the plot is made in a way to which THEY will understand. of course adult natures are implemented but that is NOT their DESIGNED audience.
I'd say the mom, in a pique of anger, took away the child's instrument of insolence. In today's world , her kid filmed private conversation with Mom and uploaded edited version that made Mom look like crap. So Mom smashes phone (bought by mom). Or kid gets arrested for driving drunk in car provided by parents, and Mom sells car.
Imagine having an idea, working out a story about a thing as personal as your relationshio to your own daughter, getting the opportunity to make it into a film, just to be replaced by some guy who rearranges all of the elements and maybe doesn't even get what you were trying to do, and then having people talk about how bad that movie was.
@@zhanehoyle8269 I did some digging and found out that Brenda Chapman (The lady who had the idea of “Brave”) was let go by the sleaze, John Lasseter over “creative differences”. News broke out that John was fired for sexual harassment...take that as you will. Maybe it was for creative differences or for some other disgusting reason, I couldn’t find any proof if that was the case. Sorry to be a downer. But understand that things can be unfair and it’s out of our control. Stay safe and take care of yourself!
@@IJustWantToBeAKnight "Creative differences" or Mommy issues? it's kinda suspicious that Pixar has a parent problem like with Disney links to Walt's guilt of his mother's death.
God, just watching the scene where her mother tries to pull the bow out of the fire makes me cry. When I was in high school, my dad got angry at me that I didn't keep my room neat enough and, while I was at school, "cleaned it for" me, throwing things away that weren't where they should be. And when I got home I couldn't find my sheet music book where all the songs I had ever wrote were contained. I couldn't even be angry, I just went to the basement where I slept and laid there, not talking to anyone. My dad tore apart my room trying to find it and when he couldn't, he sat next to me and told me he was so sorry he destroyed the thing that meant the most to me. It was one of two times I say my father cry.
Omg I just remembered because of this, once my dad angrily threw some of my stickers out cuz I wasn't doing homework and was stuck to them. And the next morning when I got bach from school, my mum had retrieved them and gave them to me and id felt so warm. Looking back now, I think it might've been the scene from brave that did that for me lol
Dang, thanks for sharing that. I had a similar thing happen to me. I never cleaned my room, so my mom did it for me. She tossed a huge stack of paper detailing worldbuilding aspects from a story I was writing. She later felt bad and literally went through probably two or three trash bags and retrieved them for me. You not only made me cry, but you made me appreciate my mom and I thank you for that.
what drives me nuts about brave most was that the movie starts with these beautifully rendered vistas of scotland, vast valleys and misty mountains, and merida meets a wisp and you get so hyped for a fairytale adventure. But nope, those vistas that probably took weeks of work just show up for 5 seconds and we spend the rest of the movie going back and forth between the same 3 locations. Say what you want about Frozen 2, at the very least they actually physically go to the gorgeous backgrounds they set up :/
yeah... but frozen 2 was terrible, its potential was destroyed because of that, something about their parents thingy, and didn't elsa already "showed herself" by letting it go?
Honestly this may be a VERY unpopular opinion frozen 2 less bad than people give it credit for, it is convoluted as hell, has too many ideas and throws them all over the place to try and see what sticks, but so did Brave, and so did princess and the frog, and so did Atlantis. But frozen=popular=worse than the other films who make the same mistakes. This is probably just me though
@@falkerwyscray9067 "Let It Go" was Elsa letting go of her fears, running away from anyone she could possibly hurt with her powers. "Show Yourself" was Elsa embracing her powers and accepting her fate as the fifth spirit. They may look similar, but mean completely different things. And honestly, Elsa's past catching up with her is a very natural way for the plot to go.
Elinor trying to save Merida’s bow from the fire was actually very surprising to me when I first saw it because it’s basically the first real portrayal of a 3 dimensional person by Disney, a mother no less. Movies either paint the protagonist’s mother out to be a complete monster or a kind soul but, like a real person, Elinor is both. Then they made her a *bear*
‼️If I was writing this movie. Instead of the mother turning into the bear as the main focus. That would just be totally scrapped. I feel like the movie going one of two ways would make this better. Either number one Merida runs away. Thinking life will be better away from the Castle living in total freedom. And she gets into major trouble. Maybe she falls in with a group of bandits living in the woods and it turns out they're really terrible people and just as physically talented if not more physically talented than her. And they try to hold her hostage or something doesn't really matter and she's forced to use her mother's soft power to manipulate them into letting her go or not murdering innocent people. Whatever. And that's when she realizes her mother's soft power is just as good as physical power even better in certain cases. And she returns home having learned a lesson. The mother in the meantime while Merida is gone is frantic missing her daughter and blaming herself and worrying about Merida. When she finally figures out where Merida is she takes a page from Merida's book and gathers up an army or group to try to rescue Merida using physical power. In the end both mother and daughter learn a little bit about each other and understand that both ways are valid ways. Number two. The mother is somehow put out of commission because of merida. Perhaps the mother is kidnapped trying to get a new bow for Merida. And Merida has to step up and try to keep control of the Kingdom by using her mother's soft power while trying to figure out where her mother is. In the meantime the mother realizes her soft power isn't going to work on these people who have no respect for her she realizes the only thing they understand and respect is physical power. So she takes a page from Meredith's playbook and has to use physical power to escape. Having to take out the bandits one by one. And in the end she uses a bow. Specifically the bow she went to get for Merida. In the end they both learned that both ways are valid and they understand each other a little better. I was really disappointed by this movie. I think the mother daughter angle was very interesting because you can tell they both loved each other they just didn't understand each other. And turning the mother into a bear is literally the laziest and worst way they could get them to understand each other. I came up with both of these plots in less than 3 minutes. And either one would have been much better than the stupid bear transformation.
@@WhitneyDahlin These are great. Some other ideas (less developed but that came to mind) I considered were: -The suitors don't want the marriage either and are in a similar spot to Merida, only they are less assertive in the presence of an audience which is why merida believes they want it. They are trying to lose but more reasonably, taking quick shots and acting more of a fake pride. Merida is only going to get that truth with some level of verbal probing of sorts since the 3 won't break their facades otherwise. Would likely involve more rounds of whatever challenges. Potentially merida attempting to hide within the castle and occasionally getting 'near caught' by the 3 who clearly aren't trying to find her which is her clue to get admission they don't want in either. They all with her lead need to fight against the turmoil that may lead to war and be diplomatic to get the clans to agree the marriage is not necessary. If there has to be 2 lessons, let it be diversity of power is important and learning/working with your audience. --The confrontation after Merida wins is either not in her room(or some other spot) or her mother leaves first so she locks herself in after realizing she wouldn't be given the win despite objectively winning. Any way out has someone there so she can't avoid a confrontation. Even if she attempts to fix the bow she can't fight her way out of that one. Potentially attempt to escape/brute force but fail and potentially now be hiding somewhere else which should either be significantly more or less limiting (Ex. any sort of dungeons or a cellar or that hall her mother was coaching speech from) . Here realizing that she can distance herself from the entrance to give enough time to try and reason her way into a slightly better situation and work from there. This is the first taste of the soft power working. Maybe says the marriage is not as bad, twists the issue to something more of 'my issue is merely lack of notice, let us push this back slightly so that a more grand/better event can happen', 'one challenge for my hand is an insult, make it 3', 'A good archer does not make a good king, lets see what these 3 have to offer besides that' etc. The point here is to buy time (and make a more interesting scene) , and it shows she was listening to her mother a little, and makes up the time that bear plot took. Her mother maybe doesn't see this event, maybe even what Merida was hoping for. But her mother hears the aftermath from the slightly improved tension levels of the other clans. Noted but not really acted on yet. Merida no longer hiding but avoiding her mother where possible and realizing she has to take more control of the events to do as such.
@@Novarcharesk You sound like a complete knuckle-headed incel. You just played into your own stereotype. Did you even watch the video? Or are you just responding to people to "own the Emilys." Don't even bother responding with a half assed response.
I genuinely hope that Brave can be rewritten and reproduced by Chapman. The movie had so much potential that was ruined after it strayed from her ideas, and I think it has the potential to be amazing if it was complete by her.
Then that’s better. It need not be marketed by Brave, just inspired by Brave. If the movie is done correctly most will not know the difference or that it was directly produced as a second take on Brave.
@@iantaakalla8180. There's one problem however, Disney would never go for it. Why do you think we didn't get remakes of pocahontas,hunchback or black cauldron?
I feel like a part of the reason of this awful derailment was "But we need a fantasy plot twist!" Except there are SO many things they could do that would allow both the mother And Merida can participate in. Hell, Scotland has a very good one in their belief of the fey, and how FRIGGEN TERRIFYING those lil guys can actually be. To survive the Fey, you need to be brave and cunning (like Merida) , but also need to know grace, the importance of words, and the rules of hospitality (seriously, its a thing) which the mom knows best. It would have been the perfect fantastical backdrop to have these two people to explore each others' strengths.
My theory is that the tapestry didn't have anything to do with the spell to begin with. I think when the witch said "mend the bond torn by pride" she actually meant the emotional bond between Merida and Eleanor. Merida just made a mistake and assumed the witch meant the tapestry. This is why the spell didn't break when Merida fixed the tapestry and covered her mother in it. The spell broke when Merida apologized and confessed her love for her mother which mended their relationship aka their bond as mother and daughter.
Holy shi-- I thought that was the whole point too. I guess the scenes happened too fast that it didn't emphasized this version of the breaking of the spell part. That's why some ppl got the wrong idea
i’ve only watched this movie once and the only scene i remembered was merida fighting for her own hand in marriage. if the buildup is more memorable than the plot twist you have a problem
i watched this movie multiple times and it was not until this video got to the section talking about the bear plot that I realized, I completely forgot about it
I really like how you pointed out that Merida is not actually trying to be manly. What bothers me in the discussion about gender stereotypes is that many people seem to perceive "traditional feminity" as contradictory to being progressive. Like, the 'you can't be pro-women empowerment if you wear your hair down and like dresses and actually want to have lots of kids' sort of thinking. And I always felt it was harmful, because why should I shun my own feminine nature to prove my empowerment and progressiveness and "girl power" to anyone? I adore how Elinor is called a peacemaker, how she's graceful and dignified and that's what builds her strength, these are her assets. By far my favourite female characters in fiction, and also it applies to historical figures and people I know irl, are those elegant, eloquent queen types who can change the course of history without raising their voice. Those who cherish beauty and grace, and achieve their goals by peaceful ways. Why gentle feminity, the classical long-fingered-piano-playing-poetry-reading type is perceived as inferior to the seemingly more empowered "stronger" type, which I'm not saying is wrong in any way! It's just that I don't believe that valuing things connected to the "traditional woman stereotype" is being weak or actually succumbing to the vile patriarchal mentality or whatever.
By this this same token I am not a fan of "if she isn't traditionally feminine she is trying to be a boy and therefore deviant" thing that pops up sometimes when trying to defend the "it's okay to like pink and wear makeup and wear flowers in your hair, own your womanhood because that's who you are," stance either. I don't think being physical and rambunctious and being direct are exclusive from being a woman (more like they are just human traits that have been traditionally discouraged in women). I just dislike the binary, this is female and this is male and I'd you act one way over the other you more masculine then feminine and one is better than the other. Like the guy in the video said Merida isn't trying to be a boy. She is a girl and embraces she is a girl who happens to also like physical activities and pursuits and whose personality isn't nurturing and elegant like her mother but direct and straight forward (which comes off as brash in her culture and something her mother wants to curb). Like the guy in the video said Merida and her mother's point of view on what makes a woman and coming to common ground of acceptance of both should have been the focus of their character arcs. Not the bear shenanigans. Also I too like seeing "strong" woman characters who can be strong either by being traditionally feminine or more being more physical while still embracing their femininity ( please don't think I am shitting on that). I love when narratives create woman characters like this. I can't stand when a story has the "strong female" stereotype where the woman character openly resents her womanhood and is cold and unfeeling and has a derisive attitude toward other women for not meeting her standards and being "dumb females." Internalized misogyny really.
I don't get the whole wearing your hair down as.. uh whatever it's portrayed as? That's how we're born, with our hair just how it is, not in a ponytail or whatever. I'm really confused. What does that have to do with femininity or masculinity?
A part not all but a part of the feminist group is turning into more people who tell woman what they should and should not be and do they are turning in what they hate the most.
This plot was originally going to be the next mulan of female empowerment...then they got high,watched brother bear,someone yelled no balls and we lost about 30 minutes of actual plot.
And this is why it makes us sick that there exists people that dismiss Mulan (1998) and other Disney Renaissance films (that aren’t Pocahontas) as only good at best while treating Brave, like Incredibles 2, Toy Story 4, The Good Dinosaur and Cars 2 like they should be much more widely considered greater Pixar films than A Bug’s Life, The Incredibles (believe it or not, on Cosmodore’s video on The Good Dinosaur, there is a comment thread full of people that dislike The Incredibles like Mario Wolfe Art are criminally underrated and the people that defend The Incredibles as an incredible movie are treated as edgy, opinion-dissing bandwagoners), the Finding Nemo duology (especially the original!!!!), Toy Story 1-3, Up, Monsters’ Inc., WALL•E, Coco, Ratatouille and even the Pixar shorts like For the Birds, Boundin’, Luxo Jr., Geri’s Game, Presto, My Friend the Rat, Piper, La Luna, Day & Night, Partly Cloudy, Jack-Jack Attack, Lifted and Red’s Dream.
Damn, over a couple-hundred of upvotes on a comment in just a half-day (then again, I even got on other comments during the same time amount sometimes).
This was the last movie I saw with my mom. She was in the hospital and Brave was on the TV in her room. She jokingly said that rebel girl was just like me. Of course, I told her she was just like that strict mom. She fell asleep before Elinor became a bear and woke up near the end to see mother and daughter happily united. My mother said that was just like us. I finally got a sense of acceptance from my mother. My mom was 89 and I was 69 at the time. BTW I'm glad my mom didn't see that bear plot line. She would not have been amused!
Why are you sorry that I'm old? Old is not bad at all. Of course, I'm healthy and strong at 74 and enjoying my life even though I'm now a widow. My husband didn't get to become old, but we had a good life together. Someday you will be old and I hope no one brushes you off because of your age. God bless you.
@@annarodriguez9868 I’m sorry cause 1. Your mom was in the hospital, gosh it’s hard seeing your loved ones there (personal experience) 2. I’m sorry about your husband
@@a_gal.in.your.basement I think I misunderstood what you meant and I'm sorry about that. It is hard losing our loved ones and hard seeing them suffer, but love gets stronger in those times and hopefully it makes us stronger so we can go on. The love they gave us doesn't go away and neither do the memories and things we learned from them. God bless you for your sympathy and kindness.
Coming back to this, I think I can see, theoretically, how the bear transformation _could_ work. In this form, Eleanor is without her soft power; she can't talk, and by extension negotiate or use any kind of diplomacy. You could then put both women in a situation where they'd have to learn to appreciate each other's approach to power. Eleanor, as a bear, learns how valuable it can be to just physically overpower an opponent or use a more direct approach to problem solving. Merida, because she can't rely on her mom to talk them out of things, has to step up and learn how to frame things to other people, the way she did with her brothers. (This could serve as the scene where she's learning to do this before she's able to master it and smooth things over between the clans at the end.) You'd have to come up with a scenario in the woods that they encounter while they're trying to break the curse that sets that up and allows it to happen. But this would tie both ideas together, as one enables, enforces, and supports the other.
Maybe bandits stroll by and decide to rob them? Merida tries to negotiate and fails, one of them lunges towards Merida and then we see the full force of the mama bear. I'm back two weeks later to say this could also tie in to the fact that she's mentally turning into a bear. Maybe she rips into the bandits a little too hard and merida worries that it pushed the mum over the edge... Then mama bear turns around and gives merida big bear hug lol.
I have the perfect scenario, invasion by the English. Imo it's criminal that none of the historical context of English invasion was used in this story. Uniting the clans using marriage!? WHEN was uniting the clans ever more important!? Come on!
This really shows how female directors in places like Pixar and Disney are treated. She had a brilliant idea but she was thrown out because of the views she put in the story and how it was, and then they replaced her with someone who says how the story isn't about females at all and is genderless. It's truly horrible.
that's why i love frozen so much. i don't care what people say about frozen but jennifer lee wrote anna and elsa so beautifully. they are both flawed and real characters.
If you like the original Frozen, then power to you. But I think both films had potential to be so much more! But as much as I don’t want to say it, I dislike Brave even less than Frozen 1. Then again, maybe that’s just because of how lively they made the Medieval Scottish backgrounds, but then again, while I find the animation in Brave to be actually pretty great, I find it to be TOO good. Like, it’s one of those Disney films that work so hard on their animation that they have a disgracefully large amount of wasted potential with their writing by just doing whatever sexist crap they want! Frozen 1 has okay animation because even though its backgrounds (although I am a fan of the design of Elsa’s ice palace) and undersized amount of adventure hold it back from its full potential, one thing I can give the movie credit for is that it does have amazing rendering.
@@es-lb4mw true, I'm not saying it's *incorrect* to refer to men as males or women as females. but like you said it's usually in a scientific context. so its just weirdly clinical for use in casual discussion.
It almost feels like they set out to make a serious movie with strong messages, then remembered “wait we work at Disney, aight back to the drawing board”
Byron Senior the only 2 there that were fully made by Disney are zootopia and meet the robinsons, all the rest are either Pixar, or Disney +Pixar. It’s usually Pixar that has the stronger messaged movies
I will forever mourn the film Brenda Chapman was trying to make. She spoke at my school after the film came out and, though she couldn't say much, you could tell she was so defeated and disappointed with the final product. A darker, more emotional fantasy story would have been amazing, instead we have this disjointed mess.
It was about her and her daughter and she got kicked out because of "creative differences" regarding HER story. Somebody thought they could tell it better. And then the new director had the audacity to say he fixed it by reducing the mother's part and to say a plot about marriage, societal restrictions and a mother-daughter relationship has nothing to do with femininity. It's infuriating even to me, can't imagine how she must have felt. Especially if the end product was very different. Even with the bear it could have been good if the focus was equally on both characters, with logical character arcs that played off of each other. P.s. The "fixer" guy seems super arrogant and disrespectful. No wonder he can finish a project quickly if he doesn't care about the original vision... or quality storytelling.
@@Evija3000 It's ironic that the "fixer" director guy thought he could tell a story about a mother and a daughter better than Brenda herself. He's neither a mother nor a daughter, why did he feel entitled to knowing what was important between that dynamic?? What issues were important in that situation?
that bow burning scene also really stuck with me. as an artist nothing would hurt me more than having my most prized possessions and passion being taken away by my own mother. its such a big slap in the face
Right? And it burns when merida repairs the tapestry for her mother at the end, but they couldn't give us one clip of elinor woodworking on a bow or some arrows for her, to show HER support of merida's interests + willingness to mend their bond? No, instead we got a clip of them riding horses with their hair down...... yay(!) 🙄
when my sisters and i were kids and got mad at eachother, we would hide each others most prized possessions. my sister even once threw all of my things off my dresser (broke many things had too😒) when we get into trouble our mom takes away our phones because it’s our most “prized possession” or we use it the most at least.
God, everything the director says makes me more and more annoyed, Its clear that he's not the one behind the amazing first 30 minutes of the film. The two plots are more removed than Merida and her mother...
Didn’t you pay attention? One of the best parts of the first 30 mins was his idea. And bear plot was brenda’s idea. It’s not clear cut what good or bad decisions were made by who it’s just a series of choices made by executives
@@daffo595 well, that's what he claims. We don't really know. And yes, the bear plot could have been Chapman's idea, but we don't know how it would've been developed. The comedy scenes of bear Elinor being clumsy and weird, (totally out of character, btw) are exactly what male directors have been doing with Pixar movies. (I'm not saying is bad or anything, I'm saying that you can see Chapman's influence in how the female characters are real and have a real mother daughter relationship and then that simply gets lost)
@@thevoynichmanuscript810 precisely, even if the movie was gonna have the bear plot in it we stil have no idea how the original director would've gone about with it or how it would affect the plot. and the new director definitely said he changed the story to more fit HIS ideas.
I would have loved if her spell did something different. Perhaps her wish causes the suitors to be kidnapped by fairies or some other creatures and she feels awful and has to fight her way to save them all. As she collects each one, they talk and she realizes they didnt even want to be married either, leading to the final speech at the end where after bonding with the guys, she gives them all the autonomy to choss their own fates. Maybe this would be a dumb addition but she could've wished for the boys to go away, but the wish gets rid of ALL the men of the villiage and her and her mother have to venture out to save them. This way you still get the scenes of the mom being prissy in the wild, while merida gets to show off her survival and fighting skills which gains her mom's respect.
Anne Beguiness Yes! It would bring the wisps back to relevancy and give an explanation to what they are, because in the movie, the wisps are never explained and they’re just sort of *there.* However, if it was revealed that the wisps are actually real people, I feel like it would be so much more interesting. The witch/magical elements could still be incorporated through this and would allow for the stupid bear plot to be abolished. Also, the 4 kings subplot could still be incorporated, adding some much needed depth and history, but this time, it could do with actual Scottish folklore and legends. Also, if people in the kingdom were being turned into wisps, it would allow the society to stay relevant to the plot. Although, a plot centered around the kingdom being turned into wisps has the same pitfalls a lot of stories have, (i.e. it’s predictable, it’s contrived, and it becomes a standard “rescue the world” story,) so it really shouldn’t be a big/important plot point. Maybe a few people are turned into wisps and that is used as a gateway to the main plot, but it really shouldn’t be more than that. As the guy touched upon, the main conflict should involve Merida, her mom, and the society, and a “rescue the world” plot only really involves Merida and maybe society. Her mother would be wholly excluded. Also, I would have loved to see more of the Scottish landscape as it was teased in the beginning. Merida’s climbing scene was gorgeous, but afterwards, we just never got to see much of it again. Anyway, these are just my thoughts. (They’re pretty vague tbh, but alas.)
To be honest, the real masterpiece within Brave was when she turned her mother into a bear. It was a beautiful commentary on the social oppression or bears. What a fine work of art!
Y'know bears are losing jobs because of racism 😔. Seriously though animal commentary can work well for example in Ratatouille, where rats are looked down upon by humans, showing a message to respect rats not as worthless pets... but why the hell did Disney think this would work HERE? Like I'm pretty sure there was no thought-out plan at all.
Turning Red really flexed on this movie's leadership team and replacement director by proving that extremely specific, personal Pixar movies directed by women about teenage girls being expected to repress themselves as they grow up, women turning into giant animals, and mother-daughter relationships can still be relatable to wide audiences, even if they are about gender
I used to love Brave too. But seeing Turning Red, I realized how much Brave tried to play it safe and not further exploring the mother-daughter relationship. Sometimes i feel like Brave was made only to showcase Pixar's achievement in animating Merida's unkempt fiery & fuzzy long hair😅
@@iamtheruraljuror9257 I remember reading a comment on here that went something like this: "Males (especially writers) can't handle not being the center of attention. I can make a list of film with no female characters, but not with no males." This could explain why we don't get too much mother and daughter relationships in media, and why turning red got a lot of hate. That and minorities were the center of attention, without them having experiencing oppression.
I’ve never watched brave, but that scene where the queen tries to salvage Merida’s bow makes me tear up. I have no idea why. The voice actor did a great job expressing her regret.
@@Notavisionary Soul was okay from what I've heard. Not a masterpiece but not as bad as this one, and they actually focused on the topic and theme of the film. The only problem was the tone of the movie which was the cartoony parts of the movie
@@Notavisionary oh fuck I'm illiterate af I thought you said it was the reason why it was not successful or something XD Well, I haven't seen it yet but I've seen a review. (By Schaffrillas Productions) He said that it was kinda like Inside Out, where it tackles serious topics but the overall tone of the movie could've been better if it wasn't so cartoony. Like Ratatouille, where he thinks is the perfect Pixar film because the balance between the cartoony humor and realism is flawless.
I want to add that since Finding Nemo, (a story, _funnily_ enough, with a much cleaner, well executed conflict between a father and son pairing) Disney/Pixar has been allergic to justified child/parent rebellion, where the child of the pairing was unequivocally in the right. Other movies that hint at this idea (especially more recent films) have it so that even when a parent or authority figure was in the wrong, it's framed as "Well, _they both_ needed to learn things about each other." Unless I'm forgetting something. That's the vibe I've been getting for a while; like a lot of animated, family-focused movies tip toe up to that line and then don't cross it. So it was really validating to see you point out how stupid it was that the idea that Merida was wrong and selfish was the moral they went with when all considering, she was being pretty reasonable.
I agree with this, but also want to point out that Ratatouille (at least from what I remember) has a father/son pairing where in Remy is framed as the one with the correct stance? Still though, very much a trend in Pixar’s portrayal of these dynamics
@@moonsetsoda Eh. I'd argue not so much considering how things end. I'd say that's specifically the fault of the flawed metaphor the movie is built on. I didn't get why Ratatouille bothered me until it was pointed out to me that the rats function as a metaphor for the have-nots. Poor, lower class folks who are just trying to get by. And the have-nots are....represented by rats. Vermin. Who are outright dangerous to have in a kitchen and thus absolutely should never be in there. Hoo boy. So while the film portrays Remy's dream as noble to seek, it's also one that should or can never come true. So any vindication of Remy's view point over his father's is just....a bit undercut by how things end up, and just the realities of the world they live in.
@@belindaluna2067 I wouldn't diminish the parental figure's reasoning for their actions in those movies as just "excuses". Trauma can rally warp a person's worldview and actions. However, I still agree, because Encanto and Turning Red really downplay the trauma that their families suffered in favor of highlighting the parental figures'. More toward the end in Encanto's case; I think the family's trauma is highlighted fairly well for most of the movie. Edit: To be clear, I'm not saying any of the abuse was justified or acceptable. Abuse never is.
Brave should have been two movies - one that focused on the mother-daughter conflict, and another that focused on the witch/folklore storyline. I personally absolutely loved the sorcery and dark magic in Brave but I agree it was a 180 degree shift from the start. It really should have been two separate movies.
I disagree that the folklore and magic should have been separate because that is a big part of that culture but yeah the bear thing was pointless, they could have done something else
would it be cool if at the end merida and the queen (not transformed) team up to kill the bad bear and queen is like yeah your archery is cool too, i'll stick to my diplomacy and tapestry making though. and everyone gets to live the way they want? i wouldve liked that more than the pos we got
@@tinseltina The typical Princess in these stories has been living off the taxes of a million peasants, and lived in the greatest luxury and security available in all her country, but then she doesn't want to do her royal duty and forge alliances through marriages so those million peasants will have a safer prospect for their lives because forged alliances actually avert wars and scare off some of the rivaling invaders? Invaders who just want to pretty much act like mini-Vikings to pillage the lands and kidnap each woman to some far off land to make her have babies with the same warriors who killed her family and burned her village down, and see her unwanted sons grow up to do the same and repeat the horrid cycle? I mean, did Princesses ever think the Princes they are marrying to ALSO isn't marrying princesses out of love but duty? They have to do their part too! That and go fight in wars sometimes especially in the ancient times. And if you actually study history, you will find that nobles and royals arranged into marriages were actually alright, and nobles had plenty of things to do anyway both for women and men so there wasn't much to be unhappy about while they live in luxury provided by peasants anyway! They weren't marrying for love anyway (this is a marriage = love is a fake modern Hollywood concept anyway) so they didn't really care all that much if the king were to have mistresses either, in fact, a few queens even got on the bandwagon with the times and encouraged their royal husbands to take a few mistresses because even as late as 1800s, kings taking mistresses was seen as showing to the other nations they were extremely vigorous and so manly they can't keep their pants on with just one woman, and the virility translated to a national image and reputation of ferocity and not one to be trifled with. Peasants didn't bother too much with arranged marriages tho, they didn't have wealth or estates to worry getting split up and diluted. = which is what marriages were about: marrying a powerful family to manage the estate in a way to safely pass onto the next generation + forging alliances to appear bigger (sort of like a wild animal raising its haunches to look big, or a school of fish getting together to form a scary silhouette of a bigger fish).
@@tinseltina Upper class women 1000s of years ago were more than simple vapid romance-seekers who cannot look at the bigger picture of international affairs. They had more important things to worry about. Give them more credit. Hell, not even queens, but many times even mistresses of kings could sway power by gatekeeping which people the king got to hear from. Empress Maria Theresia herself picked which royals were her daughters to marry as diplomatic missions for her country of Austria. When the crafty 3rd daughter Maria Christina exploited her mom's sad mood over the death of her husband Emperor Francis I to persuade her cancel her arrangements and marry a lowly noble she fancied, all the other sisters protested because their marriage duty priorities got pushed up and the diplomatic burdens were divvied and added among the rest of the sisters. She also took an especially large dowry, got the family's favorite palace in Laxenburg oft used for their family vacations (Maria Antonia tried to emulate her fond memories of Laxenburg by building in Versailles a chateau called the Little Trianon. Yes, their youngest baby sister/11th daughter is the famously beheaded Marie Antoinette), and elevated her lover to Duke of Teschen. Oh arranged marriages was something everyone just did and accepted, it's just that the sisters resented their mom's such favoritism. The sisters got back at Maria Christina by treating her as a regular noble instead of the decorum deserving of her as Duchess of Teschen. Because of Maria Christina's stunt, the 4th daughter Maria Amalia had to marry the Duke of Parma (Italy) instead, so she was the most pissed off at this. She straight up did everything opposite of the Empress's commands to "Obey your husband." and deliberately made it clear she was going to cheat all the time. Mom responded by banishing her from her home country (Austria). Anyway, Actually, most modern people mistakenly think sexism was an issue back then. It was class division that was far bigger. It was unthinkable a man of lower class to sass a little girl of the upper class. The consequences would've been deadly. Even 1000 years after Merida's time, in the 17th century England, remember how "you" was used as a term to address one's superiors (and crowds), and everyday use with inferiors and your peers utilized "thou." Many other European languages had and still retain similar divisions.
@@CrabTastingMan i appreciate the added stories of royal ladies in history (they sound like cool stories to base more movies on) but what was your purpose in mentioning them? it felt like you were assuming i had assumed that the queen didn't do anything because I mentioned the tapestry weaving, but i did beforehand say she focused on diplomacy (read: helping run the kingdom).
This explains why i had such a weird impression of this movie. Everything until the bow burned is iconic in my mind. Everything after that is a blurry memory.
You summed up everything I feel about this movie. The beginning was amazing, but I've completely forgotten everything afterwards. Just... why a bear? Why?
Pixar first female directed film was stolen from the original director and ruined. Bao however, another film about smothering mothers (directed by a woman!) was amazing and in the like 10 minutes the film ran for I was brought to tears. Pixar could make good films they've shown that, but they need to let directors be creative and tell the stories they have to tell, woman man or otherwise.
The entire "Fear critiques a nightmare" scene immortalized him as my favorite character from the movie. I'm so glad that Inside Out gave the emotions realistic personalities, instead of just turning them into one-dimensional caricatures.
I've heard a lot of people saying "Brave was Bad" or "Brave was a Disappointment," and I never agreed because I had watched it multiple times and gotten chills each time - I clicked onto your video because of the title: "almost masterpiece." Within the first thirteen minutes, you fully articulated the issue, and I finally understood the dissonance between me and general audiences. By giving the film the credit it deserved WHERE it deserved it, it's much easier to discuss where it fails and why - but this kind of temperance is so rare in the analysis and review genre. People only like to praise and criticize. Well done, I've never had my mind changed by a video like this before.
Same here! I’ve always loved brave and I think that’s mainly because it came out when I was a kid and I have good memories of watching it with friends. I’ve always wondered why so many people didn’t like it, and this video perfectly explains all of the ways it technically went wrong. I will still enjoy this movie, but now I will have a stronger appreciation for films that actually do succeed in carrying out a plot. Great video.
The thing that bothers me the most about this movie is the marketing. The trailers, poster, and title all implied this epic adventure with a badass heroine, which as a young girl I was really excited for. Also, nobody knew what the central plot was gonna be, apart from Merida not wanting to get married. All we got were the wisps in this mysterious forest... And then the movie came out and it was about Merida turning her mother into a bear. Remember how cool she looked with her bow and arrows? It doesn't affect the plot that much. A princess who's a fighter? More like a rebellious teen. Adventure? Nah, it's all about _emotions_ and _relationships._ And of course you can make a great story with those, but why would they show something so different in the trailers?
i completely agree. i remember hearing about the movie and getting excited thinking itd be about the boys who got there to marry merida going with her on an adventure to save the kingdom or whatever from a greater evil because none of them were actually interested in marrying her for one reason or another and that gave them a connection they never had before and yet longed for. as basic as it might sound, like the generic d&d party type of story we still see all the time in fiction, i still think id have enjoyed it more that way, because at least itd have cool action scenes and friendship growing from somewhere unexpected and maybe i could respect meridas motivations for once. i remember coming out of the cinema literally with nothing to say about the movie, so me and my mom just grabbed something to eat and went home talking solely about the food. it was honestly the most boring cinema experience of my life, and i even dared to watch a generic teen romance from an incredibly forgettable book once. and sorry about such a long and pointless monologue, but once i started watching it i really wanted to see merida and the guys saving the kingdom - fixing everything for their families after disappointing them with their teenage stubbornness, earning their trust back by proving they could make something good out of their unconventional ways and therefore teaching them that blindly following limitating roles doesnt help when there are actual threats on their way. its also a shame that those... forest spirits or whatever ended up being nothing more than very convenient plot devices too. i had my hopes up for a storyline filled with cool and mysterious forest spiritualistic magic the second i saw them, but ended up utterly disappointed like with almost the entirety of this film.
@@arthurricciardi9772 Sounds similar to the version I envision. Especially the Merida and the boys going on an adventure, learning to understand and respect each other, and ending up as close friends.
Exactly! It seemed like it was going to be a completely different movie. My grandparents took me and my cousins to see it when it came out and we were so excited, but once it was over all of us were just like huh.... well that was a waste of time.
I just watched Turning Red and watching the behind the scenes video on it. The team behind this was all women that didn't have the cringe of High Guardian Spice and it shows. They made a great, natural movie. I think this movie is the mother-daughter movie that Brenda Chapman was going for. It took Disney 10 years to get it right and to give them more freedom. I found it funny it took another red-headed girl and her furry mother to set it right this time.
My boyfriend got mad when I made a similar claim about Encanto being a reworked version of The Good Dinosaur. "Making your mark" and getting a door are very close in symbolism as a coming of age thing. Only it makes sense in Encanto. That movie has its own set of problems, but it makes a bit more sense.
you REALLY compare fucking HIGH GUARDIAN SPICE with Turning red???? are you fucking serious sir. i just cant express enough how wrong that comparison is. And it is because both film were directed by a female team???? is that what it is about? another gender bias? not everything directed by a woman is gonna turn out shit omg
@@colinm4055 That's far from the truth dude. The reason why Brave failed was because it focused on the bear plot, while Turning Red instead focused on the relationship between the mother and daughter and that made it successful in my book.
One of my teachers worked as an art-director in Brave. He says that before they changed direction, it was like a completely different movie. He sounded a bit disappointed. Might have something to do with throwing out loads of story and... snow? They had designed a lot of snow, lol.
I just realized that Queen Elinor’s role in the first half of the movie is literally my WHOLE inspiration for when I write about my own characters. THAT POISE. THE GRACE. THE POWERFUL QUEENLY AURA SHE UPHOLDS. And especially that part when she commanded everyone to calm down just by solemnly stepping through a crowd. I also realize that I love the color green so much because of that dress she wears, which embellishes her powerful stature and queenliness. How did I not realize this before
Everyone is talking about Merida, but everyone else keeps forgetting how they did Queen Elinore dirty. I still cant forgive how 70% of the movie turned her into a mother bear which didnt resemble anything about her and felt like the entire time they were mocking her character. I love the idea that she was the brains of the operation, and the shot-caller but no, the movie wants her to be a stupid, bumbling bear.
I love how at first glance she would be the "stereotypical feminine queen" but tho feminine she has that AURA that no other person in the movie could beat and she's so badass without needing to punch people or wield weapons. Queen Elinor is a QUEEN queen and I stan.
Yeah I was thinking the exact same thing. That film basically nailed everything Brave tried to do. However, had that fucker John Lasseter stayed at Pixar at the time, there's no way Domee Shi would have been able to direct/have full creative control.
Why do you have to compare this to Turning Red? And seriously, it’s Brave’s 10th anniversary this year, so it doesn’t need its reputation tarnished any farther by comparing it to a recent Pixar film.
@@hunterolaughlin because the themes are similar, and just because someone is stating their opinion on a old movie doesn't mean they're "tarnishing" it, that's fine if you like it just don't get all upset about it 😅
Good idea... Except, they'd have to find a way around Merida having to sleep next to her dad in her mum's body. Doesn't sound so clean cut, now does it?
@@nikkimoon1533 I mean, yeah but if they solve it in the same amount of time that was needed for the Bear plot (which was a same-day deal, I believe) they'd have been fine. EDIT: Just rewatched it and it WAS over the course of 2 days which is weird bc the King/Dad never went to the destroyed bedroom at any point in the 24 hours Merida and Elinor were gone?? What a mess
Seeing Andrews say that gender had nothing to do with this film just makes me want to roundhouse kick him in the face. As a woman that is still emerging in this industry, I have had the experience of having both my screenplay and the skills I've trained for years to perfect be directly undermined by male directors -- it is truly infuriating. I sincerely hope that Pixar and many other studios can work to one day have any woman be comfortable to stand up and prove just how good of a storyteller she can be. Female driven stories are vital, are needed, and can be successful when done right and truthfully. Brave can go do the goddamn dump as far as I'm concerned.
Sorry to say that, I'm also a woman trying to emerging in the industry and I totally disagree with you. The movie doesn't have nothing to do with gender. Is a movie about a relationship between a mother and a daughter, not woman vs. the world. And actually you having the bold to tell such thing as every fucking time a female appears on the screen she has to necessarily fight against the system she is in as if the only problem it can exist in a woman's life is sexism, is just offensive. Can't a fucking movie be about the struggle settled between a mom and a daughter? It can only be about a woman vs. society? We have more problems to deal with and to be represented on screen. Also Merida does end up the movie being who she is, and teaching her mother to be more free-spirited and brave, and less what society expected from her. Have you ever saw the movie? Gosh.
Idk why, but when she rips the dress it’s just really satisfying Edit: Keep y'all's transphobia out of my replies. I made a comment about how her dress was satisfying and somehow it turned to 'oh yeah, clothing=gender' like no. I reported the comments, so no need to worry, but Jesus H. Christ can we go one day without that stuff?
@Not Another Minute I was really surprised when I got a Merida barbie and she was in the blue dress. I was expecting her to be in the dress we saw her in most of the movie.
Right? It kinda shows how pointless it was to even have the little brothers, they’re pretty much just there so Merida can get out of the locked room at the end
Legit took me a few good seconds to remember, I'm not lying when I say I thought there were unrelated children from the great legend of the "big bad bear villain I can't remember his name" who turned into bears too.
When I watched Brave when I was little I was legit interested in the first half of the movie with the Merida-mother-society plot. Then when the mother turns into a bear and it continues into the second half of the movie I was genuinely bored. I seriously wanted to see more of the conflicts involving the mother and Merida in the beginning, not the conflict involving the mother turning into a bear.
Honestly seeing the Brother Bear scenes side by side with Brave was...wow. It was basically just a copy paste. Incredible. (Particularly since Brother Bear was so much better...)
In my opinion, ''Brother Bear'' did the human-turned-into-animal plot perfectly. The film's major themes are a) living in harmony with nature, and b) seeing the world through another's eyes. Kenai's transformation into a bear isn't treated as a gag or a plot device, but a rich part of the film that is a catalyst for his character arc, affects his relationships with multiple characters, and influences the trajectory of the film. At no point does Kenai becoming a bear, or learning to act like a bear, or striving to become human again ever feel contrived or disjointed; it's woven into the story with grace and purpose. By contrast, Elinor's transformation into a bear is...completely random. If she had become a dog or a hedgehog or even a dragon, it wouldn't have changed the story one iota. And it doesn't tie into the film's themes either. Also, fun fact. In a documentary for ''Brother Bear'', the directors discuss how a human becoming a bear is a common theme in Native American lore, as the hibernation process (going to sleep, then awakening) symbolizes rebirth and, by extension, character growth. They took this theme and made an entire film out of it. So the whole "transformation into a bear" bit also serves as a cultural component, which makes it doubly cool (since, you know, Kenai is Inuit and all).
@@Colarein oh my goodness, the transformation scene in Brother Bear was absolutely magnificent. The combination of the melodic singing, hard thump of the drum, paired with the northern lights- the visual and audio quality were just magical together. That movie was truly a masterpiece, I'm not sure why it's not talked about as much as, say, Frozen, for example.
The only thing I like about Brother Bear is the animation. I find all the plot, characters and music so boring and obnoxious! That might be a matter of personal taste though.
I'm not Scottish but they seem to have used a lot of your culture just for comedy. There are very few cultural aspects in it. I love learning and seeing more cultures in film and Brave made me sad
I’m not Scottish so I’m curious... is the first plot a better representation of the culture? Is it only the bear plot that disappoints in that aspect? Or is the whole thing disappointing and/or offensive?
If Disney is going to keep on doing remakes, they need to do Brave. This could have been a movie with a powerful message to many young girls about gender norms and accepting themselves when they don’t fit the standard. The director had her idea stolen and twisted into misogynistic bullshit and an unrelated bear plot. If they do remake it though scrap the bear plot and keep it as an animation. Brave deserved so much better.
Actually, I hope they will not redo Brave. There has not been one justifiable Disney remake. Not even Cinderella, the best of the remakes, added much. Brave may be the easiest to remake because its plot was messed up, and nicely adapt the original story of Brave, but I bet they will mess that up in addition to everything else.
I am from Scotland and Northumbria (very northern england) and I cannot begin to describe how disappointed I was by brave. The general story of brave is actually very similar to a lot of folklore in Scotland and northumbria, often the queen and the daughter disagree and one or both of them become a horrific terrifying creature like a dragon. The significance of the bear is SO important to this area of the world, and it's actually quite offensive they made her a bear for the time period it is set in. Bears were hunted for fur and meat in ancient britain, but they were also seen as incredibly noble animals possessing magical healing properties. if she was cursed by a witch she would have been turned into a wurm (a medieval dragon) or maybe a kelpie. often in the folklore the daughter or son has to fight the creature, in some versions of the folklore the child kills their mother and realises at the last moment when it is too late, or as they go to plunge their sword into the creature and they have the same eyes as their mother or they just have intuition that it's their parent. Also for Merida fighting this would have been very normal, as women in ancient Scotland and northern England would have been taught how to fight in case of an invasion, even the mother would understand basic fighting so that is pretty off and just seems like it was put in their by someone who has no clue about scottish and Northumbrian heritage and history. However I have to give them props for not making everyone ginger with blue eyes, most Scots people have dark hair, green or blue eyes. The only thing is most Scots people that far north would actually be very tan, only nobility would be pale but that is seriously nit picking.
The father hunted bears which are real. Not dragons kiddo. Also, the majority of us beautiful red headed blue eyed unicorns of the world are in the Scottish/Irish regions. Stay mad child
@@theraymunator Also, complaining that there isnt a terrible death to the mother to create some terrible ending with no real closure or happiness. Basically just the fact that yall are complaining that it's not another game of thrones.lol it's a Disney movie for children. There's not supposed to be a lot of violence gore and unnecessary sadness. The whole movie is about mending broken mother daughter relationships. Not destroying them.
So interesting...my daughter started to watch Brave when she was 2...and I always found it peculiar that she would lose interest in the movie as soon as the mother was transformed into a bear. I guess she knew better
i watched it when it came out when i was a kid and it was the same for me but i couldnt figure out why. at the end i was just kind of weirded out because it felt like a disney film, but it also felt like nothing was resolved. even through a child lens it was an unsatisfying end that didnt make sense.
I never really watched it before Disney plus came out, I had seen clips of it and stuff like that though, and I thought the first few minutes were REALLY interesting, I was kinda secretly hoping the mum wouldn’t turn into a bear lol. I still enjoyed the rest of the movie, it was just less interesting.
@@juliettefrost8570 Sadly, Disney and Pixar arent the same. If they were youd be correct. You, probally are one of the people that think shrek is made by Disney.
When I first watched this movie when I was younger it has struck a cord with me. This dynamic is the same thing I felt with my parents, and it’s such a shame that they had to redirect the story line and give it to the “Boys Club,” pretending girls/women don’t struggle with these societal expectations.
I just found this today but I really would love to see Brave redone with the original director. Maybeee take away the bear plot though, sick of protagonists or deuteragonists becoming animals for like 50% or more of the movie.
You know, this is an instance where, I agree if they took out the bear plot, it would work really well as a live action. Dare I say, even a live action TV series.
My hot take: Brave would have been GREATLY improved if the mom turned into a Will of the Wisp instead. It's set up, it's Scottish folklore, and we've actually seen them with the opening scene. Also the whole time limit thing? Still applicable! She'll become a wandering spirit in the same woods that Merida runs away to in order to escape her mother. Also, it is mentioned that her father doesn't believe in the wisps. Therefore, he can still think that she's dead. Boom, entire movie improved
she's invisible and can't speak, and thus is forced to listen silently, and sees the insecurities in the firstborns, resulting from gender expectations they don't conform to. As a result she learns to empathize with her daughter and sees that not everyone fits under expectations as well as she does.
Maxime Teppe plus, there could be a scene where Merida is like, “you talk me that women should be seen not heard, so shouldn’t you be happy with how you are now?”
I got an idea that Merida could've ran to the woods, never discovered the witch and started making herself a new bow. Meanwhile, Eleanor would've gone out with the men in search of her. Merida would've found something or someone that would be more wild and raw than her and she would've taken a similiar position with them as her mother had with her. She'd find herself carving pretty, delicate shapes onto her bow. All the while Eleanor would be riding around the woods and facing the wrath of nature, having to step into the world of her daughter. Maybe even learning to shoot the bow. And Merida would learn the queen walk. They'd still try to force their old values onto each other in the end, but then come to realize those values have changed. And they'd become quite similar. They would both become almost combinations of both of their values, still retaining their personal preferences. There would probably be a bear plot, like that both of them have to fight the same bear, Merida in the beginning of her escape and Eleanor right before she finds her.
I remember when Brave came out, everyone said "She's the first warrior princess!" which completely ignored Mulan and Kida. But hearing that Merida was *presented* with a love interest and actively turned them down words it way better in regards to Brave's uniqueness.
Mulan isn't really a princess, despite being marketed as one. But Kida literally was a princess, daughter of a king, and crowned queen when she married, so you have a point on that still.
@@NaBa.O3O I know Mulan wasn't initially marked as one at all, but by the time Brave came out she was included in "Princess" merchandise; which still doesn't really add up, imo. But I guess that's Disney trying to expand their roster to be inclusive because Pocahontas didn't count until then either but she was a princess in the same way Moana is.
Um hello, Xena??? (Just kidding, I know you're talking about the animated line-up and Xena's not actually a princess, it's just as soon as I read "warrior princess", I thought Xena XP)
I remember seeing a trailer and going to see it in theaters because "scottish bow girl on horse" looked really fun and interesting. With the will o' wisps, I expected a story exploring celtic folklore. Then I saw this thing in theaters and I came out of it unsatisfied. I didn't know anything about the bear plot. It's like the people who put the trailer together knew it was a bad plot thread and decided to omit it to lure in an audience.
Okay I know that the “character turns into an animal and grows as a person” trope has been done to death, but can we agree that Emperor’s new groove, Princess and the frog and Brother Bear are great movies nonetheless? Edit: wow that's a lot of likes! Thanks!
@@GRACEABNORMAL really? I thought BB was quite good for it's time,great soundtrack beautiful visuals and though yes the premise was basic it did it with some maturity at least
Is it not a little yikes that these are all movies with non-white main characters??? Like, once, sure, but THREE POC main characters turned into animals to learn a lesson??? Less than optimal.
It sucks that they brought down their connection to the montage. They should've had a scene where Merida can finally let everything out since her mom can't argue with her because *bear*
Yes! It would have been so perfect for her character, too! I can picture it now: Merida contemplating everything that frustrates her about her mother, building her anger and rage, her mother watching it happen and unable to stop it, until finally the outburst happens and Merida comes down on her mother with all of the fury of Odin during a thunderstorm. Then after she lets it out and has a moment to catch her breath, after she stops to realize her mother just stood there and took the emotional beating despite having far more than enough physical strength to defuse it, Merida finally begins to see the struggle on her mother's side. And that's when they can finally connect--not eliminating their differences, but far more importantly learning to reconcile their differences.
@@TheReaverOfDarkness Yes! It shows the main difference between the two characters Merida, by letting everything out and ranting shows her main character trait of standing up for what she believes in whereas her mom, doesnt react aggressively and rather takes it gracefully without showing her as weak but rather powerful for leading with her mind and not her instinctual reaction of reacting harshly
I think it would have been amazing if: All of the clan leaders were turned into bears instead of the mother (- including Merida’s father.) Chaos erupts with all the bears. Although there is tension between them, the mother & daughter have each other’s back & try to understand why all of the Clan Leaders have disappeared. They end up tracking down Merida’s Father-turned-Bear, Elinor recognises him as her husband, thus they learn that the bears are missing Leaders. During this “mini-mission” Elinor see’s the importance of Merida’s skills/attitude/strength/bravery and vice versa as her mother defends her from the Father-Bear, helps piece together the Bear/Leader situation, give vital information based on stories/Fables/History and then manages to calm & rally the people when suspicions/paranoia almost sparks infighting as they arrive back at the castle. Elinor stays at the castle to manage the turmoil & be the leader her people need (further opening Merida’s eyes to her mothers perspective & what it means to rule) Merida would take the role in physically trying to track down the Clan Leader Bears & undo the curse - but also is having to use her mothers diplomatic tactics as she acts as the leader to the group of Suitors/The Clan Leader Son’s™️ - who accompany her & show their own personalities/flaws/strengths throughout (but this isn’t pushed in the romantic direction AT ALL. (- after all, these are kids trying to save their parents & their land from the inevitable conflict which will arise if the leaders aren’t found.) This change would’ve opened Merida & Queen Elinor’s eyes to their unique strengths & helped them empathise with each other. Also helping Merida become the leader she wants to be - and complimenting both Elinor & Merida’s different styles - both powerful, respectable & effective in their own right. ^ Sorry if this is long & jumbled - I just really think this would’ve made a much more interesting movie.
Elinor becoming a bear was the biggest plot twist for me. It wasn’t hinted at all in the trailer or in any of the promos during at that time. It was a huge “WTF” moment for me when I saw it in the theatre. Elinor pre-transformation vs after feels like two different films. I just rewatched it after randomly thinking about it tonight (for the first time in 10+ years), but there’s a reason why people don’t really revisit it as much as other Disney films.
Funny how I started watching this and looked at the 50 minutes thinking to myself "I'll just watch like 10 minutes of it" but ended up watching everything because this was incredible
I started watching this without looking at what the length of the video is and after having watched it completely, I was surprised that the video was that long!
I hate how the director said gender had nothing to do with brave. The whole first plot is about gender and breaking gender norms and being yourself. Being able to be masculine and feminine, being who you want to be.
@Philip Gregory a major part of the story is Merida’s character embracing both masculinity and feminist. And the queen who had a different definition of what it means to be a woman. And no, if Merida was a guy the story would be very different. Women didn’t compete for the hand of men in the olden days. Men didn’t have to wear dresses. Did we not watch the same film?
@Philip Gregory So if Merida was a boy, then she would be a prize for girls to compete for in an archery competition? She would be forced to wear an uncomfortable dress and hide her hair? And she would be told that she shouldn't have a bow because princesses shouldn't have weapons?
@Philip Gregory You're missing the point about the expectations placed on women vs the expectations placed on men. Obviously they are not the same. Sure, you could completely change the entire narrative of the movie to make it about the stifling expectations placed on a young prince, but saying that gender has nothing to do with the story would be wrong. Merida would not be chastised for using a bow if she were a boy, because the society Merida lives in enforces the rule that boys use weapons and girls do not. This is a rule that would not affect a boy. But just because you change Merida's gender and the societal demands placed on her, that doesn't mean they don't exist, they would just shift from expectations for a girl to expectations for a boy. Even if massive changes to the story were made to accommodate Merida being a boy, those expectations would still exist and be relevant to the story. There would certainly be other rules placed on Merida if she were a boy. Maybe something like "boys are not allowed to knit" because it is seen as too unmanly. Basically, a rule that prevents you from practicing a hobby that you like because of your gender is a stupid rule. That was kind of what the movie Brave was about.
"gender has nothing to do with it" is so funny, thats literally the of core theme of the movie & its so obvious too! a mother with traditional old fashioned femininity learning to embrace new, unique femininity from her daughter. imagine someone coming in during toy story & being like "actually them being toys has nothing to do with anything at all" lol, like imagine that movie making any sense, with the exact same scenarios they're getting in, if they weren't toys
Like Andrews said "I just made it about the teenager so i can have that straight throughline" which ( in my experience ) is more of a male style to approach tings. But in this "genderless" ( though obviously from female perspective ) story, we lose all the nuance that we got in the beginning of the film. Because of the personal connection and understanding of the mom daughter relationship by Chapman, the beginning was very emotionally captivating. Too bad they changed the director mid good story.
@@vbellanzi yep, the only scenes i remember from this movie are from the beginning! the arrow scene was so intense, to think of what could've been is sad
as a scot i strangely enjoyed the story of brave, only things i disliked was the fall back on a mystacle element to push the plot and weirdly when a man speaks dòric(a dialect of scots) they seem to speed him up. but yeah i really love your input on the movie. it really gives insight about what brave could have been and what it did right rather than certain "productions" that call it bad a million times then end the video.
This explains why I love Brave as a concept but not the actual movie. Why I love Merida as a character but always find this movie forgettable. You explained this beautifully! This video is amazing.
I took a class on old English literature and after learning about how women who actively broke tradition were viewed as monsters, much like Bearlinor in Brave or Grendel’s mother in Beowulf, I can finally see a version of Brave where the bear plot COULD have worked (it would still be cliché but it coULD have worked). A version where it's not just Elinor randomly turning into a bear to rip off a better Disney movie, but a movie where this theme is explicitly explored and we see Elinor forced into existing as everything she avoided, and having reshape the way she views that, through Merida's eyes. Not only that, but it also would've had a nice authentic tie in to the culture inspiring the movie. However, to go that route would require returning the focus to gender and women as peaceweavers in old tradition, vs women as fighters in old tradition, and that clearly was not the direction John Lasseter was wanting to go. It's a shame he wasn't fired sooner for yet another fucking reason, good riddance.
Isn't this version you're stating exactly what happened ? "A movie where this theme is explicitly explored and we see Elinor forced into existing as everything she avoided"
I'm not responding to the rest of this post. I just wanted to point out that Grendel is a male monster. His mother is an interesting character in Beowulf, especially because her role as a mother has raised a lot of debate in the world of English literature, but Grendel is not a woman. I think it would be much more interesting to look at characters like Wealtheow and Hygd against Modthryth (all in Beowulf). Wealtheow is the ideal queen. She's mindful of customs, speaks wisely, is generous and intelligent, and has a soft, quiet power. Hygd is similarly wise, well-mannered, and generous. They're both peace-weavers and commanded respect. Modthryth, meanwhile, was an arrogant, violent, and rash queen. Interestingly, she becomes better once she gets married, raising many interesting questions. I think Frearwaru is also an interesting female character in Beowulf because she is meant to be a peace-weaver and her marriage would preserve the peace as we see suggested in Brave; however, her story still ends in violence.
Joanna Garrard I see what you’re saying but I think the original post meant a better set up leading to the bear plot. When I watched the movie and that scene happened, it felt like I had changed movies. Everything I remembered prior to that event was gone.
@@carrionysus5893 I agree, the fact that all the foreshadowing and complex dynamics are abandoned after that first act make it feel like a totally different film and they could've done it so much better
This movie tried to do for mothers and daughters what How To Train Your Dragon did for fathers and sons. It’s the same plot: rebellious, outwardly disappointing child has more to teach the parents than they realise. Hiccups’ approach to life contrasted with Stoick, who is literally... stoick. But by making it genderless, whatever the hell that means, all the nuance is taken away. It is just those bare - rebellious teenager is annoying and fucks up - bones. Nothing changes about Merida’s society, she’s still going to have get married at some point right? There’s tension between the clans, what happens with that? The relationship between parent and child had repercussions in HTTYD. There’s no stakes in Brave, hell I even left the cinema with the feeling that the mother was in the right which... yeah no.
30:57 YES!!! Making Eleanor just be the bad guy, and wrong for being herself, and wrong for wearing braids or being different from Merida in her style of femininity, makes the whole film SO MUCH WEAKER! The movie started out validating Eleanor’s personality, giving her power and grace and control, but suddenly nope that’s wrong, and you’re only a good woman if you’re a strong independent bow shooting horse riding one. Gosh that kills so much depth and progress.
It's like the most elementary "not like other girls" trope, where the mother is "other girls" and Merida is not. There's nothing wrong with falling into the "other girls" category, and the end made it seem like there is.
This is wrong though. Merida pointed out that she learned a lot of things from her mother as well. They both gave and took during the bearscapades. The movie didn't imply that being mannish is the only way a woman can become a good woman. You're all missing the point.
If it's any consolation, the film Wolfwalkers gave us the film Brave was trying to be: a story with Celtic lore, a free spirited red headed girl trying to save her mother, magical elements, and animal characters. I think what made Wolfwalkers work, was the fact it was made by actual Irish filmmakers, as opposed to Pixar producers who are most likely not familiar with Celtic heritage, if fact, I felt the producers of Brave went to a local Renaissance faire, and that became inspiration for Brave, which is a real shame, Pixar took away Brenda's film, which if made could have been on par with the Secret of the Kells.
There is no possible way brave could have been on par with secret of the kells. The story of the secret of the kells WAS celtic folklore. The story of brave is the mother daughter relationship. Brave does not need to have any folklore in it as folklore is not relevant to the story despite the inclusion of will o wisps.
Every girl has, at some point in their lives, clashed with their mother (or maternal figure) over a difference in beliefs, so Pixar really missed an amazing opportunity to tell that story in a beautiful and relatable way. And it's not like it wouldn't have been profitable. If this movie had had a stronger mother-daughter focus, its merch would have made TONS of money.
It would have gained as much, or even more popularity than Frozen. It really sucks because Merida is my favorite modern disney princess and i can relate to her so much. All this potential this movie had, and it got completely robbed of it. The original director behind this film, plus Merida and Elinor's characters really got done dirty
As an only daughter raised by a single mother, this film immediately caught my attention and became my favorite, because for once it wasn't about falling in love with a man to rescue her from pain, but a daughter fixing the relationship with her mother. After seeing this video, I realize what I was missing about this movie. It seems like a story from the perspective of a female writer, that a male director didn't comprehend, so half way through the story, he shifts into what is for him more familiar territory. The whole movie is somewhat of a gaslight, that ...maybe if I can turn my mother into a bear, or some other equally outrageous "mistake" it will magically fix our toxic relationship and we'll live happily ever after. However, my mother is not Queen Elena, she's Mother Gothel (from Tangled), and there is no secret, benevolent, real parents out there...just Mother Gothel. If Rapunzel could turn Mother Gothel into a bear, would it repair their relationship? Anyway, thank you for the insight on how this movie missed the mark.
Actually, I think that the family part of the film was made by one director, and the bear one was by other director. So technically, a director did know about that kind of relationships, and then the other director came, didn't understand shit, and changed everything.
I agree that the Mother Daughter thing really spoke to me. (Sorry this was long😊😊). Also, what this guy forgets in his rambling about "Pick a Plot" (23:23) is because, yes, regardless of gender, our parents are a huge part of our development and the fact that Brave makes it a both sides thing is very realistic, (for most situations). As much as parents and children won't perfectly understand each other, they can both learn something, and the child learning from their parent (in a case were the parent isn't Ozai) is important to how this story plays out and in our development irl. They made a bold choice by letting Merida be her own greatest enemy, by never seeing the good her mother does and wrecking the archery tournament without a care in the world about consequence. (This guy explains it better). ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-d-Jvg0XZ8lU.html Anyway, parents should absolutely be there for their kids despite their differences, but the reason Elinor "morphs into a version of Merida" was to show that now they have learned to get along doing girly things together (just as a visual for their changes), and almost reflects the climax. (They understand each other's opinions, showing Merida tap in to her more feminine, peaceful way resolving things (implied to exist when she has been trained all her life), and her mom fighting Mordu with brute strength mirrorring Merida's assertive approach to the archery scene).
See I always saw the bear plot as Elenor learning that Meridas version of power and feminity is just as valid as her. I still take issue with Merida blaming herself the whole time tho.
I would have loved this so much if the movie revolved around Elenor and Merida. You could have even included some of the witchy stuff, there was just no fucking reason to make the mom a bear and have that be the plot. On top of that this could have been a really cool feminist-type movie if they didnt cut the original director and change it to some dude who pretends gender doesn’t even matter in this story that revolves around the struggles of women in earlier generations.
yessss. It could have been a plot of of them finding out abt each others strengths and weaknesses (or what thet both needed to see in each other) thru magic like some sort of adventure if they really needed that type of plot
I think if the movie had tried to tackle a subject this serious in a respectful way most people would be glad rather than upset that pixar went out of their cutesy comfort zone. Issues like social ownership of women’s bodies and choices are extremely compelling and the reason why we loved merida at the start of the movie was precisely because it was set within a framework where we have all been on some level. To have her turn into a completely polar character of what made her memorable in the archery scene just because “ope i screwed up by turning mom into a bear and that somehow means i should let my life be dictated by her” (??? Logic????? What’s that) was a huge disappointment.
There's literally no other movie that gave me the "I'm not angry, just disappointed" feeling stronger than Brave, but it had been quite difficult for me to correctly pinpoint why. It just felt wrong. Way off the mark. I loved Merida and Elenor in the beginning, so I didn't know why Brave felt so utterly frustrating. This video brilliantly put it all into perspective. Amazing work! Also loved the editing - so good. * chef's kiss *
Your ideas to fix Brave are a lot better than mine. My idea was for Mordeau to show up and lead the jilted clans to war so Merida and Elenore work together to stop him. The catch being their roles are reversed: Merida the fighter has to manage peace talks while Elenore the diplomate has to engage in guerilla combat.
I'd like to add that as a Scottish person I don't feel that Brave represented our countrys heritage accurately, it's just another Americanisation or caricature of what's actually a very interesting and political time in our history.
I always thought "if they try to make a magic scottish princes film, why don't just use a tale from Scotland?" That was something both Disney and Pixar learn latter with Moana and Coco, but this movie don't make cultural justice or cense
I think that they %100 should have gone with some sort of Fae/Faeries element if they wanted magic in this movie. It would go SO MUCH BETTER with the contextually tone, and really give it that medieval scotland/ireland look.
Great video. I vehemently detest this movie but I did find myself mentally defending it from some of your points as I disagreed with a number of things. My biggest disagreement is probably the tapestry confusion as it was made very clear to me through context clues that it was indeed a symbolic bond that needed mending and that Merida simply came up with the wrong conclusion and coincidentally fixed the tapestry at the same time she fixed her bond with her mother. The tapestry, as well as the stone carving, were simply being used as metaphors as well as red herrings.
That is true, thinking about it, her mother didnt turn back into human after fixing the tapestry but it was her apology and reconciling with her which made her turn back. Then again, I can't blame him when the bear plot centered a lot on the stone carvings and the tapestry as an object rather than what symbolizes them. They could've added the scene where both Merida and her mom first created the tapestry, and that would make sense on how the tapestry itself isnt enough to fix it, but also the bond the created the tapestry jn the first place.
They were symbols of their relationship but that doesn’t mean they can’t also be literal representations to mend. The issue with this argument in my mind is that, by definition, a red herring is supposed to be a mistaken conclusion that distracts the characters from the real solution and is ultimately proven wrong. The tapestry was not a red herring because it didn’t distract them from mending their bond, it directly led to it, and it wasn’t proven wrong. Maybe u could say the extra seconds it took between mending it and transformation could be argued to be proof but I truly think that was just for the sake of dramatic suspense. There’s just no proof for it being a red herring other than it would probably arguably be a better movie if it was and clearly the movie doesn’t care about improving itself
Kind of like in Frozen? They thought that the "act of true love" was a kiss from Hans but it was actually Anna trying to save Elsa. I think in Brave, it becomes the "want vs. need" in the story. Merida "wants" to fix the tapestry to save her mother, but what she actually "needs" is to fix her relationship with her mother. I guess the tapestry as a red herring was intentional and it served as the "want" in the story.
I’m glad they didn’t do a “Out men the men” Story, because to me those are really boring, it’s just “I can do anything a man can do” “ No you can’t your a girl” *girls does the same thing as a man* “Forgive us, a woman can do anything a man can do”
But I think that has never been the point of it, even during production when the movie was indeed "about gender". They could bring up the gender conflict better without making it about "being better than men".
As Knuckles once said "Anytime someone calls attention to the breaking of gender roles it ultimately undermines the concept of gender equality by implying this is an exception and not the status quo." You can have a gender role breaking thing but if you call attention to it or overemphasize it, it makes it look like you just went "I can eat spicy food. No one else but I can. Look at how out of ordinary and unbelievable this is!"
I HATE those stories because they STILL say that being a man is the only way to be, and that women has to act like men to be capable or worthy or whatever. Femininity isn't a weakness and everyone doesn't have to strive for masculinity
Why is it that women are always needing to prove themselves equal to men? Where are the stories of men wanting to do feminine things and show that they can do anything a woman can do? Now there os some equality for you!
@@snxwsyz it is sad that this movie could have been about womanhood but instead the director Andrews and his team went into this with the mindset of "there is no gender" and completely missed the point.
I was really confused why everyone hates Brave cause I literally only rememebr the first 30 minutes of the movie and having a great impression of it. I forgot there was even a bear plot.
Zero 'O Clock I remember people complaining about the bear in brave a lot and was really confused, like what was so wrong with the bad guy? It was a kinda interesting backstory? Then I rewatched it...
I only remembered when merida tried to feed her bear mom with berries and they took a bath in some kind of pond or something, and at the end there were some giant stones surrounding them and the final fight took place.
"gender has nothing to do with this movie" translates to "i think femininity is a static state of being and don't understand how patriarchy uses those who fit into the 'ideal' feminine to oppress those who don't fit the mold."
Gender has everything to do with this movie. It's a direct ripoff of the age old tale of "moody rebellious young female protagonist wants to be tough and outdoorsy but stuffy matriarch wants her to be tradfem. Enthusiastic but idiotic father behaves like a fucking child and is comedic relief but otherwise completely useless."
@@FromRussia_With_Lovenot that i disagree or haven't seen this trope before but i can't recall any specific examples right now, could you list some if you have them?
all women are oppressed whether they fit into the mold or not. the mold itself is inherently oppressive, it's the very tool for oppression that they use against us.
@@littlemoth4956 Okay so I dont know if this is necessarily what he meant, but I got a different interpretation. I think by "this film is not about gender" the director actually meant that the film is about power struggles, oppression of identity and defying societal expectations. They use gender as a tool to explore these themes, as the protagonist's oppression comes from the pressure to conform to female standards, but these struggles can be applied to millions of people across history, and therefore the film is not necessarily primarily intended as a critique of patriarchy, although it is, but it instead has a more universally applicable message, not only to women.
I'm so pissed they changed the mother's appearance that basically dismisses the true problem between their conflict. This ending basically says "child good mother bad, mother is now good". Like, no it's not like that. They were both good in their own ways, they just might appear selfish when trying to change one another, so the best solution would have been making the mother be as she always was, but now she can accept her child as how she is. The same way Merida shouldn't disrespect her mother's likings. But no, they decided to make the mother to be quirky, wtf.
I swear i always said my favourite princess was her, but i forgot about the bear. She's still my favourite princess.... it's just not my favourite movie
i think the movie was good even great just not the first time i watched it. but when i grow up. also its not about gender since im a male but i can relate to merida.
Personally, I think it's *cowardly* that none of her Suitors were attractive. Her stand against Arranged Marriage would actually _mean_ something if she found at least one of the Suitors attractive 😐🤷♂️
@@ardisfaire Yet stories with a Male Protagonist _consistently_ allow him to find Female Characters attractive without the story ever being "about" said Female Characters. How strange 🤔🤷♂️
