Respect to KillerBee for putting their design through this level of scrutiny. I wasn’t convinced it would be a success as it doesn’t address sloshing in the sump at all, however it takes outside the box thinking to drive developments forward and for that they deserve credit. Thanks again to you for doing all this legwork on the behalf of the community.
@@900BRZ I actually see it as a positive in some sense. It points to a more “traditional” fix being the way to go, which means there’s no fundamental design error. Most engines require sump baffling, especially Subaru boxers. I think it’s far better to have the “standard problem” then having to go above and beyond to sort the issue
If I’ve learned anything from this video, it’s that this dude is the next BRZ wizard, mad respect for all the work you’re doing, we need more people like you in the car community!
I commend both you and Killer B for taking an academic approach to this issue. A lot of these companies will throw a product on shelves and say "oh, it *should* work!" but Killer B is actually doing GOOD analysis on this. Meanwhile, Subaru and Toyota seem to want to sweep under the rug judging by how their response was to reiterate how the cars are "road cars".
This issue is currently holding me back from purchasing a BRZ. The whole point of these cars is to be a fun little track car. Might have to keep my evo for longer
@KTH96 except ive had mine for 13 years, its 25 years old with 115k km and many many track days without a problem. All these are less than a year old with minimal kms and are spinning bearings.
If you are going to upspec the brakes,( which if you are going to have to do if you don’t want to constantly boil the fluid…) it’s not that hard to bolt on an aftermarket pan and oil pickup…
As a former WRX owner who went through two EJs due to similar oiling problems (and spun bearings), I really hope you're able to get to the bottom of this and provide a fix for the FRS/BRZ enthusiasts. IMO, it's ridiculous that Subaru didn't learn their lessons from the EJ motors to make the FAs more resistant to this. Anyway, fantastic work; I hope you find a solution soon!
We don’t actually have proof that it’s fixed in the WRX. There is one person who claims he has tested it on Reddit but he provides no data to substantiate the claim.
Really appreciate you doing this and sharing the honest results. Also the thoroughness of your tests really needs to be commended. This is not easy to test and you are doing an outstanding job controlling the variables
When trying overfill. Do it about 2/3 ~ 1qt. + baffling. That is how we keep these engines intact during insane track days + sprint event of full beating 30 mins.
@@Blballerboy some are just diehard enthusiasts of the car. From reasonable arguments such as track specific conditions such as elevation and temperature and just negate the issue by installing a baffle (hence the video) to absurb claims such as him being fraudulent with his results and doing this for clout. But its reddit, what do you expect.
Big respect for all the effort to bring the community this data and testing. With this systematic approach, it's only a matter of time before a reliable solution is found, so thanks so much.
Have you considered starting a gofundme so that we as the community can support your testing? I'm sure lots of people (myself included) would send some money your way to pay for the track days, parts, labor, etc. This is great stuff and we all want more ASAP.
I really appreciate that. Yes, I am considering this. I want to make sure I have reasonable expectations set before doing this because I don’t have a timeline on further testing at this point. More funds would likely allow me to move faster though.
The first thing I noticed was the oil pressure was almost 10psi lower. But I'm not too worried about the rtv. Once we apply it ourselves, I'm fairly certain the rtv won't be an issue. What catches my eye is even with the baffle, in some turns, you can see pressure drops earlier than with one on. My question is if these drops are significant enough, can we use the tomei baffle as a foundation and build upon there. Even on gentle curves this baffle proved to be a hindrance. The tomei baffle at least allowed the oil pressure to stay higher for gentle right turns and S turns. It's a thought, but I'm not the expert here.
We can definitely combine horizontal baffles with this one, but I would have wanted to see at least some improvement before trying that. As it is my plan is to remove this one altogether and then try out a different approach.
You [and all those helping you with this] are awesome! Thanks for all your time and money toward this car. This is again another reason I love the BRZ/GR86 community. Solution focused people willing to invest in keeping these cars alive and well!
Awesome video, love the academic approach. Really unfortunate that Subaru isn’t doing anything to address this when there’s clearly an issue. Once you come up with a solution I’m sure many of us will jump on board
It seems that Toyota are the ones who are stonewalling, as Subaru made the engine to their specs and Toyota signed off on it. Toyota are the one’s telling people to take a hike, from the look of the chatter, whereas Subaru are actually attempting to deal with their customers around it, but Toyota are restricting them,( because if Subaru offers a fix, like a pan change, then it’s an admission and Toyota will be obliged to do the same, and they don’t want to!). It’s an interesting dynamic to watch play out.
Huge props to Killer B for this one and allowing us to see the data and how products don’t always work as intended. This has me wondering if there was ever any tests like this done for EJ25 engines to see if the oil baffles actually help with oil pressure or not. Great video
Subaru rally mechanic here: I have seen countless EJ/FA/FB/EZ engine failures due to oiling issues in both Street and race prep form. The engines that survived were using dry sump systems, its as easy as that. I agree we would like to know the whys of the oil system failure but for anyone wanting to avoid a failure I would point to the world of racing using dry sump systems. At this point GMC/chev have made one of the best semi dey sump systems available. Compact and inexpensive. Im not sure why subaru did not adopt this style of system for its new generation of engines. It would have saved them headache and warranty returns as well as furthered their racing pedigree.
Up front cost I’m sure. I agree a dry sump would be the ultimate solution but there are none commercially available for FA24 and it would be a very expensive and involved modification. Most aftermarket dry sumps are powered by sacrificing some other function, like driving the scavenge pumps on the accessory belt instead of the AC. So not a practical solution for most owners.
Hey man, even though I saw your post a few days ago i was still waiting for this video to come out. Very interesting to see that the pressure is lower across the board with the prefilter. I really hope that next results will be more promissing. I really think keeping the oil in the pan is the way to go, you can see that as soon as the car is turning to the right the pressure drops, which means that the oil is escaping the pan and not only being stuck at the top of the engine (at this temperature the oil should have no issue going back to the pan). I cannot wait for further testing ! Thanks for the quality content man 👍
What baffles are you thinking about experimenting with between GReddy, Tomei, and Ansix? From what I've read GReddy is supposed to prevent some oil from going into the timing chain cover (though after your video that seems less of a selling point), the Tomei cannot fit the KillerB pre-strainer, and the Ansix utilizes the flaps which KillerB dislikes in a horizontal configuration. Edit: And thank you so much for providing such a thorough analysis of this issue. It wasn't long ago we all just thought it was excess RTV
I’m interested in the GReddy, but less so than I was before this test. We’ve seen good results with the SYMS baffle so far. Also interested in the Kazama design.
Thank you for these updates. Bummer about the killer b baffle but the win here is the systematic way in which you are working toward a solution. It’s the kind of R&D that Subaru should have done in the first place. I am far from knowledgeable on the subject of oiling and flows but if the oil is pooling to the left and not the right, I wonder if a design with strategically located vertical plates could do the job?
I think it is more on the pre filter rather than the baffle that caused the lower pressure.. The pre filter essentially shifted your oil pick suction higher position due to the perforation holes design compared to stock that is only open on the bottom.. Imagine using a straw filled with holes to drink
Our 2023 is still sitting in the garage with 500 miles on it since we got it new. Wife's fun car so doesn't get driven much. Thank you for all this testing and info. Hopefully something comes out soon that fixes this right turn issue.
What a legend. If you figure this problem out and you or someone else makes a product to fix it then i'm going to do a more financialy intelligent decision and buy a gr86 instead of a supra
Many thanks for these excellent video's, much appreciated. Very interested to see what's next. Greetings from the Nordschleife (awesome track to drive these cars).
Even though I dont own a GR/BRZ, I love how much detail you put into these videos. Hope you find a solution soon, and maybe even compare oil pressure with the EJ platform?
I was surprised to see lower oil pressure, since the oil pump seems to be in constant pressure relief above 4500 rpm or so. I would say that the suction pressure of the oil pump must be increased (i.e. more vacuum pressure at the pump inlet) in order to see lower gauge pressure at the outlet when the pump in in pressure relief. High suction vacuum pressure is typically caused by inlet restriction (therefore probably the pre-filter in this case). Ideally suction pressure shouldn't be more than a couple of psi of vacuum. A 10 psi drop in suction pressure would probably be enough to cause cavitation and reduced flow. There's a paper describing this called "Modelling approach on a Gerotor pump working in cavitation conditions". In your last video you show two oil pressure sensors. Which sensor is showing the pressure we seeing on screen and where exactly is it connected?
Thanks for the comment. Yeah, I’m with you thinking it’s the pre-filter causing this issue. I’m going to double check my oil cooler hoses to make sure there are no other restrictions, but the cooler was not touched between these two tests, so it’s unlikely. My car is instrumented at the OE pressure switch location.
I hope that Subaru and Toyota/Gazoo are watching these videos. This is the type of factory testing that should have happened prior to production, but I hope the manufacturers are conducting them now!!! It seems like the marketing guys (especially at Toyota) got a little ahead of the proverbial skis in touting the GR86 as track tested. You have produced well thought out and designed studies controlling for as many confounding factors as possible. I look forward to future installments. In the meantime, I guess I will be sticking to roads that only turn left.
seriously awesome work. While I don't have a second gen I really appreciate the hard work you're putting into this issue. This is the kind of stuff that makes the twin community so great. With that said I'll bring up what I mentioned on your last video. After looking closer at the shape and layout of the oil pan I still believe the issue is the asymmetrical oil pan and pickup favoring the passenger side. I'm pretty sure the best solution will be a vertical walled baffle that runs front to back to prevent sloshing towards the driver side. That's not to say a horizontal baffle isn't needed either but I think the car needs a system like what IAG builds for WRX's. As for your idea of over filling, I feel like this may alleviate some of the pressure drops but then you might run into more issues with excessive blow by. I'm guessing 1/2 quart might be ok but much beyond that I'd worry assuming you don't have a horizontal baffle to keep the oil from sloshing up into the the upper oil pan / block girdle area. It might be a good idea to see if KillerB will do a horizontal and vertical baffle system combined with a little more oil. Though it would be good to measure the volume of the stock oil pan and keep the oil fill to what will fit in the pan.
Great ideas and I’m thinking something similar. I’m interested in the Kazama baffle, which has a horizontal wall with a 1-way trap door to try and keep oil near the pickup. I’m a little concerned that unless it’s welded in it may lose too much oil around the edges on the vertical section.
This is such a beautiful video. Great info and like no hubris just pure facts and even admittance that the test may not be perfect. I am now subscribing to this channel. Good job my friend
If it's not a baffle issue, I wonder if the problem is caused by oil pooling up somewhere else in the motor or a restriction causing the oil level in the pan to drop. Excellent video and props to Killer B!
This video just disproves the hypothesis behind one very unique baffle design. I still have hope for some other baffle designs. More testing coming in the future.
Great video, really well presented testing. Also, thanks for actually writing the English subs for the CC button, because they are accurate, and I can't always be sure just by listening what some of the words are, especially with terminology that is very specific or place names that I'm not familiar with. Usually an English speaking video maker won't bother to write accurate English subs. So in those cases I'll usually try "English auto generated" or "Auto Translate" and after I've had a few laughs about how bad they are I'll probably just turn them off. Because the "auto" thingie can't understand everything that is said any better than I can. So anyway thanks for putting the real words in there in writing.
Thank you for all you are doing. I have a GR86 on order to be a fun weekend car with track and autox in mind. Wanting a fix for this has been something I have been searching for and good to know there are other enthusiast working on some solutions. Subscribed and looking forward to some positive designs and results soon.
Thank you for taking the time to analyze this and work towards a solution! and being unbiased with companies even though they are sending you prototypes. will definitely be following this series.
I really appreciate you doing all of this meticulous testing so maybe one day I can take my GR86 to the track without worring and can just focus on having a good time made it a very easy decision for my sub to the channel!
Brian, thanks to you and your group for the testing and public results. Im most looking forward to seeing results for a vertical baffle design like Kazama or Jun Auto. Subscribed and eagerly awaiting future videos
Would love to see y’all use an oil accumulator setup and see the data logs. I’m sure it’ll be the cheapest and best way to minimize oil starvation without a dry sump conversion.
Can't stress how important your personal work is to the community, and a personal thank you, as I want to get an FA24 (Beyond my Outback Wilderness with it's FA24T as that doesn't really count lol), to replace my STI, and this has been of concern to me.
The work you are doing on this is fantastic! Thank you for bringing a data-driven approach to this issue. Any thoughts on when the next test will be live?
I love the twins, but with all the issue they have and the BRZ MT costing US$45k in my country (converted from PHP) the MX-5 seems to be the better buy. I appreciate the progress and the work you've done for the community though.
@@politicallyerect6086 it would increase the distance between the pickup and the bottom of the pan. I don't know if it will have any effect on the pressure drops but increasing sump capacity is usually a good thing in motorsports. After I made the comment, I saw another video with a car with the Tomei baffle and that still had pressure drops. I'm thinking....how much oil can slosh out of the the pan beyond the pickup reach?
@@kchan333 just seems that if you move the pickup further away it’s not going to have access to the extra oil in the sump anyways. I’m excited to try my own little experiment this weekend. Putting a camera on my accusump’s gauge to see if the moroso baffle and killer bee pickup help with pressure drops. FA20 but on aero and Hoosiers
I wanted that I’m in school to be an aircraft mechanic and they use a lot of baffles or “slosh boxes” around their fuel pumps so maybe just copy one of the design of an airplane and maybe it’ll work real well for the oil system. Jets use a dry sump for oil but the piston planes don’t so maybe look into those as well
Thanks for the suggestions. So far we’ve been getting inspiration from other road cars engines, particularly from Porsche, but would be interesting to look at piston airplane engines as well. One of the people in our community who is a mech e is designing his own baffle now and working to get it to the testing phase. That’s probably what I’m going to test next.
I wonder if an oil pick up extension can be added similar to the pre filter. Maybe even one that redirects the angle. Paired with a different pan. Need to get a camera in the pan while on a sweeper to see if the pickup is getting starved to begin with which is no easy task.
Anecdotally, I’ve seen multiple WRX STIs fail immediately or shortly after installing the Killer B oil pan and/or oil pickup, including the STI that was filmed blowing up on Gears and Gasoline immediately after installing the Killer B parts. I’m not trying to imply that their parts are specifically harmful, just that they may not be as effective as Killer B claims. I suggest reaching out to multiple professional Subaru Motorsports teams and asking what brands of oil pans and pickups they use in competition, then contacting those brands to discuss their designs and how they compare to Killer B’s. There’s plenty of FA/FB engines surviving in high-level professional racing competition. Find out how those motorsports teams are handling the oiling system in their comp cars.
I’ve been in contact with several people who are participating in GR Cup. They run higher oil capacity than stock and have a welded-in baffle in what looks like a stock oil pan. They’re running 0W40 oil and I’ve heard reports of multiple engine failures. Unfortunately they don’t televise practice sessions, so it’s not possible as an observer to understand the total failure rate.
Great report. Sad news. But progress sits at the heels of many failures. Hope the standard trapdoor baffle idea works. Of course the extra quart might make all the differences.
@NoStreetRacing86 is working on a version of his CAN injection MCU that he’d be able to have fabricated and that would make it feasible for wider distribution. Meanwhile, he has technically open-sourced everything you’d need to order a PCB and build it yourself: github.com/zeroomega/canmim
