Bungie lawsuit gets worse 

It's insane to me how stubborn these cheaters are. They're grasping at every straw.

AimJunkie: Use our cheat offline Destiny 2: An online game Thats already a red flag for me, chief. I feel like the judges are just a bunch of boomers that doesnt understand how technology works

Bungie: cheating is against tos, so we are suing. Cheat suppliers: thats not illegal. It just their tos. Cheat suppliers: so we think they broke our tos so we are suing.

Basically Aimjunkie is countersuing for something Aimjunkie did in the first place in order to make compatible cheats for Destiny 2. This is really stupid on Aimjunkie's part because their countersuit admits to the fact that they violated Bungie's terms of service in order to create cheats for Destiny 2. Aimjunkie is the aggressor as pertains to the whole cheating issue and Bungie's response is reactionary. By violating Bungie's terms of service in the first place, it pretty much opens the door for Bungie to go on the offensive to do what is necessary to stop the cheating. Technically Bungie can treat the hacking software as though it is a virus and apply countermeasures to clean their system. To defeat the cheat code they have to be able to break it down in order to figure out how to block it to keep it from further infecting their system.

It’s hilarious that the “personal” files that bungie so called spied on were from the actual cheat engine itself and from his previous ban evasions as shown in the article. I can’t believe he’s trying to spin this on bungie just because his shitty software got detected on the anti-cheat system.

You know it's bad when my boi is up at 3 am ready to rant

It's hilarious to my how they all agreed to Bungie TOS when they first started the game and say they did not violate it, which they clearly did, whilst using their own TOS to file a lawsuit... Looks like double standards to me...

We need very specific type of court system for these kinds of things. Current judges and lawyers may not be able to understand what's even happening.

if Aimjunkies wins the lawsuit gaming as a whole is fucked, if developers cannot protect their games from hackers without being subject to legal action they will simply not make games anymore.

The reason the judge isn’t gung-ho about siding with Bungie about this court case is because it would set a completely new precedent on cheating in public games, and would set up a multitude of new potential court cases that may not necessarily be justified, but would still be supported by this one.

The cheat IS a derivative work. Just because you say you're not "legally liable" does not mean you are immune from doing illegal things. If that were true, then no negligence would ever be possible. Also, just because a lawyer writes it in a legal brief does not make it true.

If nothing else, they can keep these companies back and forth into court indefinitely until they have nothing left to fight with

To me the cheaters surely can't win this out, if their main claim is bungie stealing their code to anti cheat. Then aimjunkies stole their code first, the dumbest arguement ive ever see

something i love about is when sweatcicle is reading, he doesnt sound hesitant or goes "uhhh" trying to pause and read properly, he cuts out in silence for a split sec to read without any awkward noises, i want to take inspiration from that

I just hope this lawsuit leads to a precedent to legally prevent distribution of cheats 🙏.

The whistle or ringing sound in the background is killing me lol

It's time guardians. Wether we like it or not we have stepped into a war on social media. We must now take matters into our own hands and hunt down the cheaters and sue them into Submission.

They are certainly tenacious. I’ll give them that. I obviously still hope Aimjunkies loses the lawsuit though.

Couldn't help but notice that wallpaper is sick man looks like your logo. Absolutely love it

love the clean set up you got sweat lovin it

It amazes me that the lengths cheaters will go to to stay in the game to try to win in PvP end game activities ( Trials of Osiris)

Bungie should be like, " we only put the anti cheat in the online version of the game"

Just a heads up everytime you talked there was a pretty noticeable ringing. Hopefully can get it fixed before next video.

1) It would be good to see how this company "found out" that Bungie used Destiny 2 to take files from someone's personal computer. I feel that anything more than scanning for installed and/or running cheat software is too much of a risk for player backlash and exodus to implement. 2) I would like to see how they were sure Bungie reverse-engineered their software. All of this sounds like empty and false wild accusations without proof to back it up. 3) Even if Bungie did get a hold of their software's object code, that doesn't mean that Bungie needed to use any of their code in the updated cheat detection to include their cheat software; It could have been something as small as a simple fix or patch to whatever exploit was being used as the basis for the cheat. Also, on the topic of taking apart another's code, wouldn't this cheat software company have needed to pick apart the code of Destiny 2 in order to make their cheat? To figure out how to hook their software into the game? So, if this claim of theirs against Bungie held water, wouldn't Bungie also have equal claim against them? 4) Most importantly, Destiny 2 is Bungie's own software and service. If Bungie does not wish for a program to work with their game, they have every right to put in place measures to prevent the programs from working together. Destiny 2 isn't an ecosystem/device line with a store like Apple, so I don't think anyone could even make a fist step towards forcing Bungie to make their software open to any add-on program anyone wants to make. This is Bungie's software, Bungie's IP, and 100% Bungie's choice in whether or not they shut out cheats, which as a Destiny 2 player, I hope Bungie keeps fighting to shut out cheats.

Only use our cheats offline... in a online game.. thats like the cheapest excuse they could come up with lol

All the cheat developers need to pay for what they are doing/done the fact that they can even do this in the courtroom is just plain ridiculous

Loving the weights bro keep it up!!

What’s that weird ringing/whistling noise in the background whenever sweat was talking 😵‍💫

Bungie may monitor the folder that destiny is installed on, they may not snoop in other folders however battle eye may also monitor software, whith that said, that company must have proof or they are screwed. I hope companies like these go down hard as well the cheaters buying the software

Bungie should win this case. Due to the fact that destiny itself is an online game it is literally impossible to play in "offline" mode like if I disconnect my router and try to play you won't be able to even start the game. These cheaters need to man up and face the consequences of ruining a good thing for others.

good vid, also loving the room makeover

This is why game companies should continue to issue hardware bans like Punkbuster did for the Battlefiled series early on. If you ban the mac address of the NIC it's pretty hard to come back from that.

Someone should make a D2 anti cheat that works but is very obvious to the anticheat and just troll willing cheaters

I'm no software engineer but I'm very curious at this allegation that somehow installing Destiny 2 would create some backdoor for the developper to spy on you. That's not like it's something trivial to implement, especially if it was to the point of not being detected by any third party after 5 full years of live service. To my knowledge, the data any piece of gaming software is collecting has to be stated/filed before release for compliance with data regulations and worldwide data protection laws.

A couple of recent updates ago where we were required to accept the new terms of service with Bungie, I actually read them. Took an hour but in short it states that battle eye will be monitoring your computer looking for cheat code only. They will also have access to your username, your pc serial number, the version of your operating system but supposedly not having access to your personal name. Also they will know your location. It also stated that arbitration is now gone and that you cannot sue Bungie in a class action lawsuit. That each individual business or person has to file their own legal matter in court. This is why people need to read prior to accepting any terms of service.

I feel like Bungie anticipated this because of aimbots counter to blizzard. I’m guessing Bungie is about to bring the giant hammer next go around and they’re not doing it alone with their pocket book, they’re bringing daddy’s money, Sonys. Aimbot is about to get something they were not asking for. Dude got a 7mil fine. This company’s about ready to become a huge example for all cheaters

All I gotta say on the whole "unauthorized access to Mr. May's files" claim is that's how anticheats work. Bungie bought the cheat to decompile it and hand it over to battleye to add it to the list of bannable cheats.

Holy shit....you tidied the room 😂😂 your parents must be so happy

The clause is pretty common in anticheat software, which has to scan active files and see what they do

There are so many dataminers constantly going through the D2 code, that if there was a backdoor to see into and download off of your computers harddrive, we would know about it already.

thanks for being destiny community lawyer so we all know what the hell is going on! legend!

Even though we give Bungie a lot of shit about the state of the game, I love how much respect they gets from the players because of situations like this.

"You're not allowed to use our cheats in online games" *Developer blocks said cheats from their always-online game "You can't do that! We're gonna sue you!" ....so dumb.

A thing with anticheats is zzz of them work by scanning suspicious files on the computer or open files on the computer because a lot of cheats are external programs running on the same computer. Im not sure but it could be what this lawsuit iss referring to, when it comes to him having his files stolen and reverse engineered.

Not a coder or programmer, but to my knowledge, you do not need access to the source code for the game to produce software cheats. Destiny 2 is closed source software, which means the source code cannot be publically viewed. I am not sure the methods that are used to make cheats, but it does not involve the source code in d2s case. Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.

Bungie just got Uno Reversed

Dude, did you finally clean up your room? That's crazy... Im too lazy to clean mine kekw

The only thing that Bungie probably “spied” on was the modified game files on the computer of ‘Mr. May’

Just woke up from a nightmare, to this 😭😂

Bungie being able to see all our files sounds like BS. If their anti cheat, Battle Eye, can't detect all cheaters, what makes Bungie able to detect everything?

Isn’t the spying accusation related to battleeye? I was under the impression that battleeye looks though files and monitors your computer to detect cheats. That update required people to download battleeye to play destiny 2.

for anyone who wants to hear more on the legal side, look out for a vid from Hoeg Law here on RU-vid, he is a lawtuber who has been covering this on and off, he'll probs have a vid going over the legalese in the coming days

Can't wait to see Sony's lawyers to get involved the further this goes on.

As some additional information for you, cheat developers for games not made in Southeast Asia most of them will use clever tricks to not ever touch the games code. They do this because of those world of Warcraft lawsuits. If the only thing bungie has for sure is that they broke TOS or enabled others to and bungie did in fact derive code directly against the code of the developer of said cheats (which is what sounds like they’re alleging), the cheat developer could win or at the very least not lose, because then at that point bungie would be in violation of intellectual property rights as it pertains to software code. Im not a lawyer and could very well be talking out of my ass but I’ve seen this song and dance before. And just because gamers want the cheat developers to lose doesn’t usually mean they will. Usually just ends in a stalemate.

It like Phoenix group worded it to make their cheats sound like accessibility software rather then cheats and that their user agreement makes it so that the individual not following the license agreement makes each individual the parties to be sued not Phoenix

Incident Response step one typically involves obtaining malicious software usually via a compromised system ie a cheater meaning if that system is connected to Bungie systems they are able to acquire the said software, perform analysis on the software to contain and eradicate if possible. At the least implement ability to protect against it. Regarding the identified personal computer that is supposedly targeted by Bungie my question is how did Bungie identify the system, is there a call home in the cheat software that identified the Command and Control server or personal server? This will be fun to watch unfold.

We need Legal Eagle in this case. I'm not well versed enough in US digital laws.

Cheats are called cheats for a reason. If something like doping in sports is not legal, then this shouldn't be either. This judge is out of their own mind

The thing to remember is when you play D2 for the first time you have to agree to the EULA, which to my knowledge probably has something along the lines of "not allowed to modify or use 3rd party overlays when using the game." a complete guess on my part but if thats true AimJunkies would be in violation as well.

I took that as when we agree to use and install battle eye it has to review files on where ever destiny is installed. I also have 0 clue how the cheats work or not.

As a software developer, sadly if bungie did buy and reverse engineer their program, then yes, the cheaters do have foundation to their lawsuit. Regardless if it is an alteration to bungies code, some of the code is highly likely to be unique which bungie does not have permission to us due to copyright infringement. Yes, using someone’s else’s code is not lawful.

Sweat has my family held hostage 😂

While waiting to testify as a expert in court, a defense lawyer literally made the claim that IT is borderline "Voodoo". The 60+ year judge nodded in agreement. I was shocked... Sooooo this isn't surprising

What files did they even steal from Mr. May? It literally said "without his knowledge" so how does he know? I understand if they won't say what they were directly because of evidence or whatever but I'm just curious on what's so important that Bungie allegedly stole files off of this computer

Epic games figured out how to see whos using cronus zen and other third party equipment

wtf did aimjunkies hire saul or something

you know everyone talking about the lawsuit but look at that room I CAN SEE THE FLOOR!!!

They should change anti cheat to do a kernel level scan for cheat engines before being allowed to log in. If you decline or fail you get put into a different lobby

Nah, that man is grasping at straws for literally anything. When you download a game and the file is in use, your computer will let you know if an app is accessing more files than necessary. If anything, the ability to use cheats shows that Bungie doesn't restrict your files, which is more prone to cheating. There is a term for it, but certain games will outright deny any file modification while the program/game is running. Genshin Impact is an example (gacha game, go figure). It's more hilarious because they are crying that they had their cheats reverse engineered and that it violates their TOS... when they had to do the exact same thing to make those cheats to begin with. And they are making cheats for an online only game that they knowingly make cheats for tracking other players through walls and what have you. What part of them saying a single player game or offline only is the reccomend use of their cheats did they not understand when they made an aim bot?

i cant wait till we get a destiny show so i dont have to see whats going on on twitter

It really depends on how the program was detected. With the launch of Anti cheat detection if the system detected the PC was running a cheating software system at the time it’s a breech in the original ToS which can be seen as him buying the game to play and test the cheats which is intent to sell for systems that breech the ToS. It’s like if someone drives a bank robber to the bank provides them the guns and bags and waited for them in the cars to get away. The person in the care is still a criminal even if they say ‘well I didn’t rob the bank.’

Just a reminder..... ALWAYS READ THE ENTIRE TERMS OF SERVICE AGREEMENT whether it's for a game, subscription, whatever. Always read it, less chance of being blind sided somehow

Bungie after filing a lawsuit against a guy who uses free cheats (it was just a prank)

No wonder menus feel like they take longer to load. Bungie be looking in my drive.

The surveillance is about the only claim that I see that could have any standing I just don't put it past any company tbh, mainly because no one truly knows what goes on behind closed doors in big companies

the worst part is that the cheat company i practically giving Bungie another argument to go against them, they're practically digging their own grave

Cheating violates Bungie/Destiny terms of service. Simple decision.

Okay so two big things I want to address; Firstly, this guy has to prove all this in court regardless. He has to show that the information was actually downloaded and directed to a server at Bungie. Which he might be slick and try to use the data Bungie normally gets from you, that being your IP, what OS version and what hardware you're running. Like, surface level shit that isn't really identifying or invasive. Again, he has to prove it was his actual "confidential" files. Which is going to be interesting how this plays out. Two; These claims are already incredibly laughable and near paranoid schizophrenic territory. Hear me out; Why is it now that Bungie is supposedly sucking personal files from your PC coming out *now* and from a *cheat maker* who's currently being sued? And not someone else? Why hasn't anyone else spoken out? We have people that exist right now that are so mindful of their privacy that they actively watch their network and outgoing *anything*. Anything being sent out from their PC is literally watched with big eyes. Someone else would have and should have spoken out. This sort of stuff would have been far bigger than the EGS Chinese outrage and the Riot Valorant Anti-Cheat... *riots*. And lastly; I doubt Bungie is just going to give up on this. Bungie has Sony money and should go as hard as they need to to set a damn example. If Bungie wins, this makes it huge for video games and how cheats should be legally nuked from orbit.

Pretty sure the allegations on the LSLA granting access to personal files is legal talk for 'Bungie looked at my computer and found a cheat engine'. It's doubtful they would attempt to access actual personal files, e.g. pictures, videos, documents etc.

I was literally blown away when i saw a video how someone showed how netlimiting with witherhoard works and allost all comments thanked him for showing them. Instead of getting good they go to cheating so sad

Cheating is against ToS not illegal. Kind of funny that Bungie are breaking ToS too. This is interesting to watch unfold…

AimJunkie: Sells cheat programs. Bungie: *Sales increase* Judge: The fuck is the problem? .... Also, bungie illegally accessing a personal PC without a warrant will definitely have them losing this battle.

like come on "use of cheats is permitted in an offline enviorment." **there is literally no such thing as offline in D2**. Theres no way they just said that, all bungie needs to do is show up to court with a console monitor and no wifi connection and show the judge the screen that say "internet connection required". literally beats that entire argument

I encountered some people cheating in PvE few months ago, mostly super spam. I did check their build, but nothing that contribute to be able spam super.

The Mr. May strawman is literally a “glass bones and paper skin” situation from SpongeBob, and the boomers in the courtroom are SpongeBob and Patrick, eating up the lies and buying even more bags to hold chocolate in.

The only possible thing I could see the guy spinning the surveillance thing with would be BatteEye

Really easy way to break this down. Firstly in the TOS you are not allowed to distribute or modify the software except for personal use, especially for Monetary gain. That's already a breach of contract by the cheat makers. But cheating for personal use only is never against the rules, only when you use it to gain an edge(common language in tons of legal stuff including gambling). Like you cannot get arrested more making steroids for body building/sports as well as using them for yourself only. As soon as you mix in a competition, especially for Recognition or monetary gain you are in breach of contract or "good faith competition."

Cheaters be like: How dare you catch and sue us for using your code to create our own code for hacks for people to use offline in your *online only* game??? The mental gymnastics these people go through would be amazing at the Olympics

Battle eye has been spying. Ring 0 anti cheats have the same access to your computers files as your OS, and BE has to make money somehow after licensing agreements

New camera is nice tho

This is a situation like thief among thieves. Bungie steal many paid costumers with content vault, but strike when anyone try to steal from them (in the cheat form).

Really shows how everything just sucks, can't even use video games to get out of the bs of daily life cause you get into shit like this

the stuff about the personal files is worded very vaguely. I mean when you download a game or program it asks you to give it permission to access/modify settings. The vagueness of the “accessed files” could be from just that. or the anticheat detected the cheat software. Sounds like a lot of spin to make bungie seem more malicious here

the "accessed files on Mr. May's Computer" is talking about the anticheat scanning your current processes and accessed files while the game is running. You agree to it in the EULA and Privacy notices when you play. It's not got a leg to stand on

The only thing that I think would be brought up in the court room is ...."NINTENDO VS GAME GENIE". I'm not sure what that " EXACT" stipulations were in that court proceeding, but the only thing that I remember is that a genie came out on top... and I'm pretty sure that if this is going as far as I think it's going to go this instance of the game, genie versus Nintendo will be brought up in this court proceedings

Wait they don't have in their terms and service tampering with the game with cheats and alterations to code as a sueable offense?

“AimJunkies offers cheats and mods that give a user an advantage over the competition” is literally on their website. “Intended to use for offline” The competition is not dregs, its other players

Funny how they say because legally they aren't at fault if someone uses their CHEATS in pvp. just like how those dump trucks aren't actually liable if your car gets hits by a rock flying out the end. they are. it's just some bullshit.

Technically if the Cheats are being sold and advertised to work for and with Destiny 2, in the title, couldn’t the sue for copyright? They are using some information from Destiny to try to sell their products therefore using Bungie’s product as a way of making their own money?

Drama always finds a way