Cable measurement is not science. Why no double-blind cable test? 

Better is totally individual so i don’t know why there’s a debate at all.

,,Better,, than what? What are the criteria? Very difficult questions to asnwer

@@khoi83 To you this thing sound better than something else you tried.

@@brainache555 define ,, better,, then

@@brainache555 Couldn't have said it better myself. 👍

@Jingle Nuts Oh, Gene and his massive measurement rig are being sued by Synergetic Research because of the snake oil accusations against the company. This has became an epic dispute with. True story! You can follow it in a FB group called Real Audiophiles

@@TombstoneTube DellaSella does a great dis-service to the hobby both 2 channel audio or high end home theatre. Gene is no benefactor to the industry except make nothing but accusations. Good on Denney to go after that guy. Dellasella did this to himself.

@Jingle Nuts Hates cables but reviews 9k pre/pros and comes out with a conclusion "gotta have it". He is no benefactor to the industry/hobby.

@Jingle Nuts not the same gene who thinks 'false economy' cables are same as expensive cables! Lol

Playboy is my favorite channel, though I admit those ladies are fairly bashful. And all funny cat videos are great too.

@Sean MacDonald yea funny enough same applies to my aunt 😄

I think that the only person you need to please and impress with your sound system is yourself. Who cares what other people think or say?

A Bose Wave "is" my sound system, too. It ROCKS!...and....No cables to worry about! 👻

2 things: 1.) A $12 Belkin Gold cable from sounds significantly better than a generic OEM/Office Depot cable off the shelf for about the same price. No, it’s not because the USB plugs are gold plated (gold isn’t a great conductor, but it doesn’t rust easily), it’s because of the stuff inside. So, you don’t have to be rich enough. 2. I’m an absolute novice when it comes to wine tasting. Sure, I’ve heard of the terms “Dry” or “nutty,” but I don’t know what a “dry” liquid tastes like, and even though I’m 34 I can’t say I’ve had a wine that reminds me of cashews or walnuts. With headphones, Ten years ago, I could hear stuff like “more bass” or “muffled” because I had plenty of life experience about such things, but I had no idea what “digital hash,” “modal distortion,” or even what a 1 kHz tone was. Yep, there is surely placebo where you think you’ll hear something because someone said you should, but a trained ear is also better at separating the wheat from the chaff. 🌾 When it comes to cables, I was a non-believer, shorter or more ergonomic was ok, and someone else can buy a pretty cable but it wasn’t for me. I even had a company proudly let me compare their cable vs stock, and tell me it should be obvious the difference, but I just could not. That all changed for me when a friend brought a $650 cable over for my HD 800. I was utterly shocked how much clearer and fuller everything was... the HD 800 wasn’t experiencing a frequency shift, it just sounded like I was hearing _more,_ and the change in transparency and clarity was bigger and more noticeable than many DAC changes. They were ready to help me do blind A/B comparisons, but the first time going from stock to the 3rd party cable was not subtle and, for me, well outside the realm of placebo. I can understand not wanting clearer headphones though. “Demons” by Imagine Dragons has AWFUL drums, super distorted and digitally mangled no matter if it’s from a DSD file or a Spotify Stream. But you can’t tell as easily on a Bose wave radio, and two days ago when I heard it at the grocery store the ceiling speakers couldn’t make the drums be audible at all. My mom also prefers the softness of a blurry distorted Bose wave radio, because she just likes a little relaxing melody while eating dinner or teaching yoga... she prefers instrumental music, so it’s actually better for her if lyrics are unintelligible. There’s all kinds of audiophiles out there, and I won’t say someone else is wrong for seeking a certain kind of signature.

@@evshrug insightful comment， thank you

Thanks!! I gave it a lot of thoughts before making the video because I know it is a very sensitive subject.

Yes it was a great video and just to state my my opinion The only people who think cables don't matter are people who either can't afford it or have never heard it. Some guy showing you a measurement doesn't tell you anything about anything :-)

@@redleather420 I disagree, measurements are reliable but only show PARTS of the picture, but not the whole picture.

@@khoi83 they show you if something is broken or not that's it. ASR just measured a cable and said look it didn't change the frequency response or distortion therefore all cables are fake snake oil. I mean you would think these science people would be the intelligent ones but they do science worse than a second grader.

@@redleather420 ASR is not science, its a pseudo religion

Glad you enjoyed it!

6K cables are for people who have near 100 thousand dollar systems!

Yeah agree. $6k in room treatments would make a def noticeable improvement, more so than any cable could do.

@@boostedmaniac there you go

$6k cables is when your power amp/s and speakers are at least $20k each

There is a lot more that 6k will offer somewhere else in the audio chain

people get angry because companies are selling 12,000 $ a/c power cords to gullable people. those of us that have comon sense know its wrong and are trying to educate these people.

@@gasandbatteries9833 I can understand the motivation, it is like wanting to stop someone from getting robbed. But what if it is a reasonable price?

@@gasandbatteries9833 why the anger though?for some people who have that kind of money to spend, it would probably equate getting an Armani suit and putting on a cheap Old Navy belt instead of a Gucci one.🤷🏻‍♂️

@@ThomasAndStereo Hi Thomas, congratulations on presenting this hi-fi edu! Excellent from start to finish. Okay, so what is a reasonable price for an I.C., power cord, coax, etc? From my experiences and my budget, $300 is the absolute max and closer to $200 is what I prefer to max out at most of the time. Now on a related topic, I have also discovered pleasing results using Toslink/Optical cable and it's much, much, more affordable than coax or I.C's. If I find the optical cable to my liking and affordable then the $ saved with the optical allows me to consider a tad more refined power cord or speaker wire. Anyway, do you A/B any optical-vs- coax or optical-vs- I.C.? Thank you Thomas.

@@nycbass78 well there is more to it than just that. cables are a con job. false advertising. no proof. no blind tests. alot like the junk sold on infomercials. alot like churches on tv that steal money from sheeple. hate to see it happen and things are getting done about it. Amir from audio science reveiw is one of the people doing something about it.

I wonder if he was speaking from experience?

True

Thats why there will never be world peace

well, u know there are people out there that if they were condemned to die, standing @th gallows in front of th hangman, would start an argument over which type of rope was best!😅 I'm afraid that type of personality is plentiful in th audiophile community

@@tothemax324 True

@@gizzy2403 lol touché!!That would be a polyhemp blend rope of course.😁

Completely agree. That is why I tell people don't bother with cables until the very end. You get way more return spending money elsewhere.

@@ThomasAndStereo The other thing about that Thomas, the more resolving your system is, the easier it is to hear a difference.

that’s what I thought when I spend over 1K on power cord. I know the actual material cost is probably like 20 bucks but I just can’t deny the change in sound quality.

@Jingle Nuts to me 1K is a lot. I invest most of my savings on crypto so hopefully I can afford a legit system after the current bull run.

@@buttonman1831 Precisely, if you have a mediocre system, putting high end cables/interconnects in the mix will not yield any "substantial" improvements.

Yes, that is wrong of me to say that all RU-vidrs are not qualified. Anyone who understands the scientific method and understands what are the possible factors that can influence the outcome of a test is qualified.

Not until they go to an audiologist and have their hearing checked. Like the guy who ran the ls3/5a shootout at ls35a.com did. He gets an A++ for honesty.

@@bruce8429 ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-rLvpVMeORns.html We certainly did

True, what other people do is their own business. Just enjoy the music. Some people are so worried about how their gear is set up that they don't listen/enjoy the music. Don't listen to your gear folks, listen to and enjoy the music!

I think the issue comes about when the people who hear the difference try to put down those who can't, or can't afford to buy better gear, which is where the measurement people try to intervene, try to be saviours and say its ok to have cheap cables because more expensive ones aren't better in any terms (at least as long as they measure about the same or within a certain threshold). I think many modern reviewers try to act as peaceful moderators, and tell the people who can't afford expensive cables, that its not that big of an issue.

Is there something wrong with you? The whole point about audio is to never be fully content with your system! 👻

I might modify that; engineers rather than scientists I have found most unpersuadable on cables. The actual scientists generally take the scientific approach whereas engineers rely on 'established' dogma.

@@turiddu9 Engineers are generally very practical people and also reliant on their equipment and calculations. If the machine tells them that the resistance and capacitance of the wire are the same, then of course you can't hear a difference. The concept that sound is interpreted somewhat subjectively by people or that there may be some aspect of sound reproduction not captured in basic measurements escapes them.

@@jefft275 If its not captured in basic measurements feel free to suggest what kind of measurements should be used. In fact maybe the cable manufacturers could tell us what measurements they use to evaluate their cable designs?

@@turiddu9 engineering is inherently an unthinking field. They believe in the "good enough" approach for every component in the chain, and believe making components better than they need to be makes no difference.

Amir, as a audiophile for almost 50 years I've experienced similar phenomenon with my modest yet transparent system. I've come to the conclusion that there are many other variables which can influence all of this. For example, voltage fluctuation and noise in the AC Mains, room temperature, relative humidity, (important for speakers,) warm-up of the equipment, break-in routine, night or day, listening with eyes shut or eyes open, (don't laugh there's a perception acuity issue here which exists,) etc. I suspect that if you can minimize these variables that you too would begin to also hear minor differences in cables. I belong to the camp that cables do indeed perform and sound different just like all other "components" in your system. Basic electrical measurements are very helpful indicators IMHO (LCR) regarding what to possibly expect however at the end of the day it all comes down to achieving synergy with your other components even in support of any individual listening preferences. For what's it worth, my financial investment in cables translates to ~ 7-8% of the $ value of my entire system when it was originally purchased. Significant but not ridiculous.

@@oldschoolaudioenthusiast I changed my powerchords and powerstrip and minimised this fluctuation nearly to zero. Cheers

Your own mood is a factor that most people don't consider.

Amir - trust your ears, I've been at this for 40 years and the same goes with my different systems. Read Alan's comment below (or above) - therein lies the answers to the nightly sound fluctuations. Cheers!

You probably should consider to try a good AC mains filter/regenerator. That may reduce fluctuations.

And you with most certainty didn't hear it this time either. James Randy has 10 000 dollars waiting for you if you pass a double blind test and hear a difference between two cables. Go grab it...

GREAT VIDEO THOMAS! I really like your presentation and argumentation. I am a physicist (with specialities in solid state and acoustics) - and we are very used to the idea that 1) we don't know everything and 2) if the observations don't match the measurements, then *it's clear that the model we are using is inadequate* That is the history of physics! Cables may measure identically with the limited measurements we make but obviously *something we don't yet know about* is making the difference we experience. I really liked your hamburger analogy. And I don't agree with the people (eg. Amir "science=measurements" Audio Science Review) who perpetuate the falsehood "no measurement difference on this 1kHz sinewave or frequency sweep means no difference in sound". I know psychoacousitics is also a factor, and also here we also don't know very much. Personally I do think that there are significant effects independent of my brain's processing that are causing audible differences (remember when we switched to Teflon dielectrics?!) which have to do with electron flow, crystal boundaries, skin effect, relative phase of different frequencies, dielectric behaviour, and more as well as inductance, resistance and capacitance. Thank you for making this video and your quiet reasoning was very enjoyable. All the best, Rob in Switzerland

You forgot the beer. 😁 I am sure it can be done with a budget but it depends on what you set as conditions.

This is precisely why the Molingordo/Matrix Hifi tests done in Spain a few years ago are so interesting. They were done in a very amiable, controlled setting, by audiophiles themselves with no agenda whatsoever and with exquisite etiquette. The results are there for anyone to explore.

@@robertocalvo934 I saw it and I would have changed certain things because I have an issue with some of their criteria. For example, they asked people to choose the 'best' system, well best is different for different people so are they testing the system or are they testing people's taste? I can go on and on but you get my point.

@@ThomasAndStereo I think your are mistaken. At least in the first meetings the ABx test was : can you tell apart one system(10.000 euros) from another (700 euros). They weren't asking subjective questions but rather can you tell me which one is A and B, which they couldn't (it seems that when you match sounds levels things get knotty )

@@robertocalvo934 Well at the bottom, it is written at the bottom of the page "Well, to avoid being subject of such arguments, we have gone from the usual DBT questioning "wich is the one"? to "wich one you like best"? This should eliminate the pressure that so often is called upon to demerit the use of DBT's, furthermore, on this occasion there were not preagreed a max listening time, and each listener/tester could use the music of his choice."

Great tip!

I talk about it all the time. I was starting to think I was crazy, because you're right. No one ever mentions it. And out of nowhere, Thomas comes and saves the day.

Yup, well you are an expert at this.

please do me a favour and try a nordost frey 2 power cord on your amp and your player!...listen to it one hour...than go back to a realy cheap power cord. if you realy dont hear any difference...you were the first one🤣👍 you can skip your power cleaner if you want!

Thomas, start a crowd funding to hire the appropriate group ( ie: Nasa ;) for a proper double bling test. You could organize this with other audiophile RU-vidrs to get audience to participate, suggest cables... Possibly involve some measurement folks (ie: audioholics, audio science review...) This would be very entertaining for sure.

This is the best take so far. Bravo! I'd also like to throw in that the scientific method serves to minimize cognitive biases. In Alcoholics Anonymous the first step is acknowledging you have a problem In Audio testing the first step is acknowledging you have a bias

Was it in parallel, like just along side, what would that do?

Oh, thanks for explaining, I have no idea.

I would not disagree with you there that what you said is possibly true, we just need to do the double blind test to confirm first. Then we come up with possible different reasons why that is true. Is it placebo? Or is it true there is a difference.

Don't underestimate the power of suggestion

For me, if it takes a lot of energy to hear the difference, there is no difference.

If cables made a differences that you can hear, you should hear the difference ALL the time, not sometimes. If you can only hear the difference sometimes, then the difference is YOU

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 That's true.

I'm assuming that's supposed to say "doesn't"

@@crazyprayingmantis5596 yep, typo

I myself wonder when these cable companies proudly say what their products are capable of but NEVER post their test results or measurements to prove their claims.

Forget Amir and forget Gene. Follow your own ears. Test good quality used cables in your system and decide by yourself. I did, with used cables, without knowing their exact models and price, and in my system, there was clearly a difference in sound. After several days I picked the one I liked the most. It was neither the cheapest nor the most expensive, but definitely better than my previous cables.

@@vmpty I'm into movies and not much music listening. Something like 95% I use my system for Home Theater. I just use good cables nothing exotic or outrageously expensive. I would rather spend it on gear than cables. I even listened and tried my friend's Mcintosh amp and tried to compare it to his Denon AVR and I couldn't tell any difference.

@@johnlim7720 if you do mostly home theater I fully understand what you mean. In my own HT setup I don't mind much about cables either.

But you should tell people that ie. second demo is a fancy 6000$ cable :)

So that goes both ways I guess. For both Thomas and Gene. They both are the topic of your comment.

@@Yiannis2112 who knows? 😉😂

lol

Thomas will probably have grey hair very soon, too... haha

I just need to turn on one of my tube amps :)

Glad you enjoyed it!

@@ThomasAndStereo Do you think cable manufacturers know why cables make a difference? Or are they keeping that information to themselves? Logic dictates that they should know but of course there are exceptions...what do you think Thomas?

I do the same thing. My favorite was when I tried a new set of interconnects. My wife came in from another room to ask "What's wrong with the stereo?" Those cables went back.

@@charlesgrubbs2101 I use the same indicator. Except my review reading must be better, because mine more often than not hears the improvement without even coming into the room.

If you could not tell the difference, then there is most likely no difference. Or the difference in that setup is not significant enough. I always say, if you have to concentrate a lot to hear any differences, then there is no difference.

Absolutely correct, Engineers are not necessarly scientists, they use establashed science to make things, but they are not required to discover anything new scientifically, yet some of them think they know everything there is to know about certain things.

@@Ryu288288 especially chemical engineers. They think they are the smartest in the room. 😂

Wow, your thoughts are nice laid out and I wish more people can read what you just wrote. You basically summarized my whole video in a few sentences. Yeah, I should have used your example in my video because there are studies on listening beyond 20khz.

@@ThomasAndStereo You are too kind, but thank you for your generous words! I must say your video (obviously) struck a chord for me, especially after a few recent encounters with überobjectivists. Do keep up your good work, I very much enjoy your channel.

Fair enough!

Man, that is amazing to have a daughter with a skill like that.

It's for people who fail to understand that audio works orders of magnitude smaller frequencies than radio frequencies. And some possible trace elements of radio frequencies are totally negated by the crude crossover network / dynamic drivers. It's like claiming a jumping mouse is causing a pyramid to shake.

A man cannot cross the same river. He's not the same man. It's not the same river.

they are a joke...measurements are the only thing that matters !

@@Dobbs65 he knows very much about electrics but doesn't know much about how to listen

@@hudo there is no "special" way of listening. Either something makes a difference or it doesn't, and measurements and test prove that there is NO scientific or logical reason why 2 different cables that measure identical would sound different other than strong cognitive bias.

@@dakken74 so that's it, it has to be bias, it can't sound different because way its measured its absolutely perfect? Even if bunch of people hear the difference? Did you even watch this video, or ever tested any cable on half decent stereo system?

@@hudo yes I watched the whole video and found no compelling argument for why cables should sound different other than a "belief" that they would or a trying to dismiss the findings of actual electrical engineers by saying that measurements are not science.

Just for fun.😉

No, you missed the crucial point I was making when I was talking about the coke bottle. If you suddenly have 100k people reporting that after they put this snake oil on their cable and it changed the sound, then and only then you investigate because it is statiscally significant. If only 2 people said that, you send them to the mental hospital.

Glad you enjoyed it!

Sometimes you can open your mind so much that your brain falls out.

​@@crazyprayingmantis5596Has not been my experience. How about you ???

Agree in the sense we should just enjoy the music as priority and never lose focus of that.

Which ones?

All he did was give an opinion, there is no science or test to back it up.

Thanks Taz! Great comment and in my second system, I use cheap cables too because I don't do critical listening.

People,, stear clear of short cables. , they send the dynamics all weard.. They don't to let the cable do its job properly...

I think you might be able to get a bit more sparkle with different speaker cables. I remember the Q3000 series tweeter is not very sharp. However, I would advise you to spend the money elsewhere. For example, wait for my topping Pre90 preamp review.

That's laughable, Gene has a degree in electrical engineerings does actual measurements and publishes them.

but he doesn’t work for Nasa ;)

😁😁❤

You will notice cables and interconnects 100% of the time not 1% of the time. It's very easy to go look up a AB comparison on pursue perfect system or jays RU-vid channels for hear it along with The thousands of people who say it is night and day.

@@redleather420 moon audio dragon cables for headphones gave me more than the stock cables.

@@redleather420 Yes. If we are comparing a $6 cable and a $300 cable, there would be obvious differences. What about between $300 and $1,000 cable? The difference may not be so obvious. It would be interesting if someone conduct a test, asking the subjects the difference between "two different cables" but indeed they are one and the same. Just a thought.

@@tw9668 I've seen plenty of tests at least on scientifically most people seem to show quite a large difference even as the price keeps going up but that is on 50 to $200,000 systems so maybe not on your average system or maybe the cables are just amazing and very rare or something

With speaker cables (especially on regular dynamic speakers) the only important factor is the speaker cable gauge. The wire has to have enough surface area in order to keep the resistance down. There is no magical way to make a cable sound better outside of that :)