Fallout New Vegas: Caesar (Edward Sallow) explains why he created the Legion, talks about his view of the NCR and the Brotherhood of Steel (possibly making a reference to the Midwestern Brotherhood) and talks about medicine.
The biggest problem I have with Caesar's theory that by combining the two you'll destroy the flaws of both, but a common flaw will be the factor that remains: conquest. The reason the two factions stretched out was because of their desire to expand, which they've done by conquest. The NCR with Annexing settlements, and the Legion by attacking, enslaving, or even enlisting the tribes of Colorado. The reason why they met at the Mojave area was because the NCR in the West went East, and the Legion in the East went West. If Either party picked a different direction, like North or South, this conflict wouldn't have happened. But, getting to the heart of the matter, lets go with the ending where Caesar wins....What's next for the Legion after they take all of the NCR's territory? Even if Caesar can get the ball rolling, he's likely to die before real progress is established, or he dies at Hoover Dam just like many of the other endings that oppose the Legion and Lanius takes charge. Lanius will simply continue with a conquest for the sake of fighting, maybe even up the savagery like crosses, mounting heads on pikes, or crippling men as a "prize." Caesar has put a lot of effort into forming the Legion, and I think he has lost sight of future costs over present costs, like his own argument about using the BoS.
A character who, while I disagree with nearly everything he believes in, actually follows a clear and consistent moral ethos that’s easy to understand. That’s a sign of great writing.
The Night Watcher That’s the beauty of it. Real people like us understand a fictional character and debate his philosophy, truly astounding. I am your antithesis as I agree with nearly everything he believes in.
Patriotic Socialist I’m pretty much a classical liberal. “Dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery, government exists to protect the rights I already have, society is a sum of sovereign individuals,” and all that Jazz. I can sympathize with and see the appeal of having some sort of all powerful central authority who keeps things in order and acts as a sort of national father figure. It makes one feel secure and safe. But I could never officially support it. The risk to my freedom is too great, and I refuse to be a slave, even if the master is benevolent. I also cannot see how a monarch can truly be sovereign without the divine right of kings. And since our connection to the ancient noble lineages is mostly broken, I do not believe a legitimate return to the monarchies of old is even possible, at least for the western world. Even the ancient Roman Empire was far more unstable than Caesar in FNV lets on here. Sure, there were a handful of emperors whose reigns were stable, peaceful, and prosperous, but far more emperors were murdered or had reigns marked by insanity, degeneracy, and tyranny than not.
The Night Watcher He wants to restart the world under a different banner. Brutal means for a brutal world. The NCR wants to make the world just like before. Even with the very same problems. Both in the past from the perspective of the Courier, but to us? It’s simply understanding whether we are content with our current system, or the simplicity of the brutality of the past. There are faults in both worlds and we can’t really decided which is better for the future. It’s so fucking perfect
Issue is that if he didn't enslave innocents and he just enslaved raiders, i would have sided with him. He makes the most sense provided he doesn't accept bribes himself & becomes corrupt. He needs to allow women to serve, and not enslave innocents. And make it a voluntary service.
I think this game singlehandedly got me into Philosophy and Politics with high school later influencing that, but a lot of that was already rooted from this amazing fucking game
What about Bioshock it is based off objectionism of Anne Rand. The only problem it is extremely biased against objectionism. True objectionism is an egoist philosophy against Religion and Communism, and Government Power. Anne Rand family was a rich family evicted from the Soviet Union for being wealthy. Anne gave up on religion and blamed Soviet Communism and Governmental control for her family fortune. She became a writer of Anthem and other objectionism works.
Legion: Calmly and thoroughly explains his reasoning, motives, plans, and beliefs. Institute: Tells you its to complex to understand without ever giving you a real damn reason.
Mann, the institute was a straight up dumpster fire. I still don’t fully understand. What I’ve chosen to believe is that the institute chooses to recreate humanity as synths with the original bloodlines of the first scientists and leaders of CIT and The Institute being the masters of this new synth race.
If they had shown the Institute’s actions and motives rather than trying to tell them, I’d say it would’ve been better, Show Don’t Tell after all. But they didn’t do that and went with a Lazy, unclear version of Telling their “motives”
@@drstrangelove307 how do you show Caesar's motivations??? You can show it partially through gameplay, but I doubt it would even scratch the surface. Also, not everyone is interested in it. I think that this is the best usage of the dialogue system: to enrich narrative but only when and about what you are interested.
@@Alex-rw9bd Tbh I think it's very likely that they thought the factions by appearance and presentation and then just inserted it on the world hoping that the average player wouldn't think about it. And the idea of making their motivations and reasoning as vague as possible would be that not only this erases all the work you would have to put into it, saving costs, but it would make impossible factions possible because if you throw logic out of the window, you can't argue that things don't make sense, as the entire fucking world doesn't make sense. It's win-win. And finally, I think also that they just assumed that the most observative players would be tempted to theorycraft over it and find some kind of logic there, somewhere. It would be kind of a narrative "outsourcing", making the community work for them. It worked on the past on a lot of media, but I think that FO4 was so low effort that it was plain impossible. The saddest part is that, in an economic perspective, it worked wonders. The game sold very well, and they could shift the production from these "non-lucrative" aspects to the ones that catches the regular player's eyes: voicing, graphics, et cetera...
Caesar's smart enough and measured enough to break an idea down to its essential parts to deliver his ethos and logos to an audience. The institute is too far up its own ass to explain something to someone who didn't even go to an ivy league university and got a degree in robotics and sociology
This is so sad. Most of the people praise Bethesda, Fallout 3/4 and Skyrim as if they were a gift sent to the world by God himself. I guess people just like being dumb. You know... "Panem et circences!". Strange coincidence, right?
Then Fallout 76 happened with even less effort than Fallout 4. I’ll give Fallout 4 this while weak in the narrative and motivation of the characters at times are the game is complete able and doesn’t act as a ransom/bloatware like 76 does. Fallout 4 rather nice graphics and I like the option to make bases with artillery ports. Fallout 4 also to my knowledge never deleted itself on mass upon installation like 76 did. In closing Fallout 4 has some flaws but it is a con job dumpster fire like its counter part.
@@samhamsord7942 Are we, now? Care to elaborate, Mr. Shill? Because Bethesda's actions over the course of the last year has more than justified the mudslinging on the internet, let alone the critique.
My favourite thing about Caeser is that, unlike the rest of his Legion, he doesn't speak in medieval language and phrasing. He doesn't put on that hoity accent that his soldiers seem to all have He speaks like a regular guy, with a gruff tone. He's swearing profusely, using modern and basic language.
I think that Caesar might deliver wordy speeches to the legionaries and they pick it up from there. The priestesses who raise the Legionary children are probably instructed to teach them to speak like that to enforce a idea of a more educated legionary
@@presidentofthegalaxy3642 Legionaries serve multiple purposes. One of which being propaganda. Freshly conquered tribes or “profligates” (not necessarily backwards savages with that one) see these well trained, well spoken, disciplined soldiers and compare with their peers, generally deeming them inferior in at least some aspect. When you put that into a mindset, newly incorporated tribesmen, and probably children of the tribe can easily look up to or idealize the common legionary. I could go into it further but I hope the point comes across well enough.
No need for the larp w the courier, I mean at the end of the day the legionaries are slaves just like the women in the legion, just have a different role.
Comments like yours are cancer, instead of seeing good discussions about the topic video you see this trash. Good job holding back the fallout community.
not really I see the institute have lot in common with the legion they both believe there actions no matter how bad they are will help they greater good and believe slavery is a necessary evil
This guy does not twist his words at all, he tells you exactly what he’s going to do and how he plans to do it. He believes he is right and it’s up to YOU to decide if he is right, and I think that makes him one of the best characters in fallout history.
Ceasar is philosophically interesting, but at the end of the day, he's convinced that humanity has been set to zero, and is still there, so it doesn't matter how many skulls they crack, they're fine squatting in the mud for another 2000 years before someone is allowed to reinvent Tylenol. House is an Autocrat, and arguably a tyrant, just like Ceasar. The difference is that House has a longer shelf-life, is better educated, smarter, and he has a plan to get off this rock in under 200 years. I think Ceasar is mistaken in his beliefs that humanity is still at zero. The reformation of civilization has been accelerating since the fall of the bombs, just look at the past 60 years in Fallout. The West has reformed democratic government, even if it is corrupt and ineffective at times. New Vegas has woken up, and really truly developed into a functioning city from the old world. On the East coast, the Capital Wasteland went from total anarchy, to stability in 10 years at the hands of the Brotherhood. New Cannan was bringing education and a new, unifying faith to the tribes of Utah. Until Ceasar destroyed it. That's what he does, he's a destroyer. He justifies it well, but at the end of the day, he's there to bring a new apocalypse to post-nuclear society, because he doesn't see its merits, and his drive to be a "Great Man of History" means he feels its his right.
The way Caesar explains everything to the Courier, the way he talks to him and teaches him while also criticising his lack of knowledge, honestly makes me believe he wanted the Courier to lead his Legion one day. As soon as they meet, Caesar makes a note of every great act the Courier has done, and it's much more impressive than anything anyone in his Legion has ever done. Also, Caeser knew he had problems, he knew his life was coming to an end, and he states himself Lanius is a warrior and not a leader. I think, knowing his time was coming to an end, Caesar chose the Courier as his successor.
Ceasar has a talent to see the potiental in men and exploit ambition joshua(a want to spead salavation) and the flagbearer (to make a home) but i think when he sees us knows we are a rising giant same with house and asshat crocker
I can see that happening. Why else would Caesar put the Courier's face on the money? It's basically him sending the message-the Courier is the future of the Legion.
@@QualityPen I was pleased to meet you because you did more damage to my Legion than the weaklings at the NCR can only dream about. Under the right tutelage and vision, you could obliterate anything in your path.
Courier Six: What do you think of the Minutemen? Caesar: They hardly seem like something of a threat to anyone, let alone to the Legion. They hold on to old and outdated tactics that can't be used effectively in modern combat. Their forces are always spread thin trying to take care of the people of the Commonwealth. They will never last if they don't use more advanced tactics. The greatest example is what happened to their Castle, it was overrun by Mirelurks of all creatures. Their coward General hid away in a dungeon while the Minutemen were helpless to defend it. Courier Six: What do you think of their leadership? Caesar: What is there to say about it? It's unstable, too inclusive and no due process. Look at what happened in Quincy. They failed to defend a town after they were overrun by a group of common thugs like the Gunners. They were waiting for reinforcements to come and help defend the town, but they never came and their general was killed. Turns out it was one of their own that sold them out to the Gunners. What did they do after their general was killed in the battle along with the most of the Minutemen? They headed to Concord where they were attacked by common Raiders and given that Preston Garvey was only true Minutemen among them they had to take shelter in a museum. If not for the actions of one vault-dweller the raiders would have overrun them. And what does Garvey do after all this happens? He gives the title of general to the vault-dweller. A person he had just met. Does that like good leadership to you? It's another Quincy waiting to happen.
Too bad the legion didn't get 100% fleshed out, I would've loved to have spoken to more of his soldiers, to see if any of them understand why they fight.
It is implied they don't, it's mindless tribe loyality. Best part is that this is acknowledged in game. Marcus criticised the legion for this, saying that they don't follow Ceasar's ideologies, but Ceasar himself. When Caesars gone, it'll crumble eventually. God damn I love this game.
@@kukifitte7357 I disagree, if caesar wins the Mojave his empire could last, he talks about Rome and how new vegas would be his Rome,he also talks about how the Roman's fought for the greatness of Rome and thus his shintesis is him becoming inmortal trough new vegas and his new Rome everyone fighting for its greatness and thus caesar
@@kaiser4883 problem is his soldiers and general don't share his vision. He knows that everything he'd worked sp hard for can undo itself once he's gone. I think that's why he takes you in so easily and happily explains his thought process to you. He wants you to replace him. That's just my little theory and I don't know any of this for sure but it's fun to speculate.
Tiss fant He 100% grooms the Courier to succeed him. He basically inflates your ego massively by telling of all these great deeds you’ve done the first time you meet and then gives you your first test to see what you will do. Other Legion quests involve you getting your hands dirty to familiarize yourself with Legion operations at the basic level so you can later coordinate them yourself. For Christ’s sake the guy literally puts your face on his money if you take the Dam for him.
The legion's biggest mistake in my opinion is that Caesar does to his enemies what Hitler had Germany do to theirs. Conquer the nation and then turn around and force your conquered enemy to fight for you. Now in theory on paper, this seems like a genius idea to do, you use your enemies resources and turn around and benefit from it directly. The problem is that your new citizens who are enemies in ethos are going to corrupt your ideology at some point. Caesar's Legion works because Caesar is alive and in control but once he dies, what comes after his will be corrupted.
Well, you and the entirety of Caesar's legion that isn't Caesar himself. Just because the dude at the top is educated, doesn't mean the rest of them are.
Chris B The entirety of the Legion is fucked up, no matter what he says and how well thought out. The NCR ain’t perfect, but at least they don’t pay extra for a slave with an unborn child in her stomach.
@@Lajos_Kelemen They are doing this for the greater good. To last even longer. Look at Ncr which has "Democracy" but also has slavery deep in its roots.
I wish you could have had the chance to turn the minutemen into your own version of legion maybe you could have somehow spared Kellogg and had him replace Preston and Kellogg could be your Joshua Grahm
That was why i loved new vegas, Fallout 4 only appeals to new comers through gameplay, youre cut from choices throughout the game, and left with bare minimal options as if they can even be called such. Is take a 100 games like NV before i would F4, NV ideals and dialogue will carry on in my mind forever, Fallout 4 will fade eventually.
hey atleast you can convince colonel autum to be spared but even thats not thru an interesting conversation and bethesda then makes fallout 4, which makes fallout 3 a masterpiece compared to whatever the dialogue was in fallout 4.
@@gasolineandwine fair point. I like edens design and some of his dialogue, but the speech checks to convince him out of his plan are just nonsense, 2 speech checks and thats it? lmao
That's what I love about New Vegas. Caesar is vilified by every single person you meet up until that point. Until you meet him, and until you find out his true ideals, it's easy to call him an evil person because of what he does. Then, after this conversation, everything becomes so much deeper - is he truly evil, or is he in fact the good guy, with him doing away with corruption and inefficiency in the form of the thesis New California Republic, using his antithesis, the Legion, and replacing it with an inherent brutality that enforces strength? New Vegas hit the nail on the head that in the wasteland, morals aren't so cut and dry, black and white. Its narration is godlike.
I disagree. His belief on the utility of individuals based solely on their usefulness in production or war in service of the state is a huge moral red flag as well as an economic shitshow in practice. Also, his beliefs on the purpose of the Legion, being the antithesis of the inefficiencies of a bureaucracy, is totally flawed. If the thesis were collectivist economic and personal outlooks on the nation, would the antithesis be even harsher collectivist ideals? No, the antithesis would be economic and personal freedom. The NCR shows the flaws of bureaucracy whilst the Legion shows the flaws of autocracy. The solution is anarchy.
Helicopter Tours of Ancapistan Nah, Caesar’s point is that the NCR is plagued by its lack of collectivism. He says that democracy is meant to represent the will of the people but in reality is a conglomerate of competing individuals that are only looking out for their own self interest. Meanwhile in the Legion, every action taken is for the good of the entire organization, and its people are as expendable as their usefulness to the Legion. I’d call that a solid antithesis to the NCR. The real point of contention is whether or not the inevitable synthesis would truly be worthwhile, or if all the bloodshed Caesar causes is actually pointless.
Well he's still a bad guy, he's borderline insane. Being smart doesn't mean you can't be an awful person. I'm guessing he also missed the part in history where rome collapsed in on itself.
Its pretty funny to read this now, when Obsidian is selling out to MS, being unable to survive on their own and having their only child to turn out to be a mediocre fantasy without a hint of originality
Yeah, and not without reason. Still, random dudes all over the web will still count Obsidian as 'good guys' UPD. Apparently Cain and Boyarsky are still there, they were just working on some game based on a novel
@Deliq 96%* Muslim country, due to Arab conqueror Muhammad bin Qasim having conquered the place at 711 AD. But yet again, the United States was once a vassal of the British Empire.
Obsidian writing: Monologue on history, politics and economics from a single character. Bethesda writing: We do good things to stop the bad guys doing bad things like destroying our good things. Help us find a thing to make our things better. We have no time to explain the thing, just find it and we will like you.
The problem is that the Institute originally had an understandable reason for why they were doing what they were doing, but for some reason the Producers chose to dump that plot from the game itself. In the old pre-release material, Shaun (named 'The Old Man') and the Institute had the goal of perfecting synth bodies so that they could obtain immortal, perfect vessels that they would transfer their brains into without brain degradation like biogel, and kidnapped people to constantly obtain test subjects to experiment towards this goal, marginally making their Gen3 synths better bit by bit while sending replacements for the kidnapped to help them in their intel and further kidnapping operations. This would eventually result in immortal, "perfect" new humans that would be an evolution of humanity which would in theory be able to reconquer and rebuild the wasteland into a Utopian future sci-fi civilization due to super strength, durability, intelligence, and longevity. THIS is why synths even exist in the first place and why they're so human, in case anyone was wondering because Fallout 4 never provides any sort of purpose to their existence due to said purpose being scrapped and not replaced with anything. Kelogg was supposed to be foreshadowing towards the Institute's scrapped goal (his unaging), but even that purpose is now gone.
@@ShadowSonic2 F04 took some chances and not everything turned out well; I think they put a lot of resources into settlement building, voiced protagonist, and environmental design (best open world in any bethesda game, easily), combat and enemy mechanics, but not enough into story.
After looking at this, I must say, Bethesda ruined a lot of potential with the institute in Fallout 4. I was so looking forward to asking Father why they did everything they did, to dig into the lore of the institute and find out everything about them. Instead I get "It's too hard for you to understand."
By my understanding, they were CIT personnel who tried to restore human civilization and work with the Commonwealth, but mutual mistruth caused them to become selfish and save mankind in their own views, regardless of human sacrifices. Since they were based on CIT personnel, they were pretty damn technologically advanced, being far ahead the BOS and on par with the Enclave and Think Tank. I view them as widely misunderstood people trying to save humanities last remains, but generally fucking up in the process, I'd just say that the reason not much was on dialogue(instead, on holotapes), was due to the fact that a fully voiced MC would make the game twice as big as it is now, considering audio takes the majority of game space next to meshes and textures. So it's technical limitations over lack of lore.
Because the game shouldn't expect the player to be as ignorant as the PC. Even more who says how long the PC has been in the wasteland? It's good though. Bethesda left it vague so that Obsidian can fill the gap with something worthwhile. :p
Because Father is smart enough to know that you are no savage and that you have some form of intelligence. By simply saying "The surface has been ruined by the great war, it as you heard a wasteland. We have tunnelled underground and look at what we've made. You can either survive on the surface or be reborn in The institute.
Fallout 4 was my first Fallout (throw a shoe at me if you like). Even then, I could tell something was off about the way the dialogues were structured and how the stories of the people were plotted out. Nick Valentine was probably the best-written character in the whole game, and even he had major missed opportunities. Imagine being able to take him with you into the Institute and have him give Father a long list of all the things he did to help people in the Commonwealth. Imagine if he told Father that story about how he rescued a girl from a bunch of Raiders simply by pretending to be a bomb and making beep noises. Then telling Father, bluntly, my deeds make me more Human than you could ever hope to be, you filthy pig. A dialogue like that would have been a great Blade Runner moment, and Father's response, whilst probably hard to write without making the player deciding they want to blow his head off, would have been a pivotal moment, too. Probably for me the most disappointing thing about all of the Bethesda Fallout games is that the wastelands never seem to change much at all regardless of the player's actions. Sure, in 3 you can activate the G.E.C.K. and be told in one of the ending slides that the wasteland now has a good supply of clean drinking water. But other than opening up a couple of lines of quests where you fight to keep the water flowing to the right people, it seems to change absolutely nothing about the Capital. Do not get me started on Preston Garvey. I would honestly have liked to have the option to bury him up to his neck and ride over him with an old ride-on lawnmower. The back story he shares made me want to punch him. He is better armed than most non-Raider people in the Commonwealth, and he wants to sit down and have a sook rather than go out, get some better weapons, and smear the walls with the people who betrayed him? Does that sound like someone I would follow for all the comforts in the world? Fukk, no.
The virgin "I'm killing people and replacing them with synths for uh reasons. You wouldn't understand" The chad "I conquer as a new Rome for unification and long term stability of humanity"
The problem is that the Institute originally had a proper reason for its actions, but during development someone at Bethesda decided it was too complicated and ejected it from the game. The original plot was more understandable.
@@missingno2401 The Institute were trying to create a new type of humanoid life form that they could transfer their minds into so they could live as superior immortal Gods and rebuilt the surface world. That's why the Synths exist to begin with, not to be soldiers or laborers, to be their new bodies. The 1st Gens were too basic, so they moved onto the 2nd Gens. This is why Nick Valentine was given the brain patterns of a human, it was to see if a 2nd Gen brain could handle that kind of sentience. It worked, but not well enough so they moved onto the 3rd Gens. 3rd Gens becoming sentient was a side-effect of their brains being made complex enough to handle human thoughts, it wasn't intentional. Kellogg being a long lived Cyborg was another hint to this, he was their attempt to see if cybernetic upgrades could make a human live longer. Surface humans being captured and replaced by Synths at random is because they needed more test subjects to test the mind transfer technology on, until they could perfect it. But when this plot was cut out, all this foreshadowing no longer meant anything.
"Some of the Brotherhood scribes we captured further east didn't even know the name of their founder, Roger Maxon." I wonder if that's meant to be a subtle dig at Bethesda's take on the Brotherhood with the "further east" part
I like to think it is a reference to the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel that broke off from the main Brotherhood sometime after the events of Fallout One and ended up in Chicago. From Chicago they expanded West as far as Colorado. The Legion has also started to move into Colorado. The Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel was different from the main BH because they took in new people and shared their technology but took direct control over towns, tribes and cities. So as time went on their original members would die off and the history of their faction would die with them.
@@Ryu1ify Yes it's from Fallout Tactics. Some of it is considered canon. Given events of it are mentioned in Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 and Bethesda still sells the game. The hate for Fallout Tactics comes from mostly original fans of the franchise, back before Bethesda took over. It wasn't what they wanted so they panned it. Overtime however it has found it's place.
Interplay ruined the brotherhood, long before Bethesda even touched it lol, just look up fallout BOS, that was the last game they released before they went under xD
I don't think a single person in the Bethesda writing room could even conceptualize the phrase "It's Hegelian Dialectics, not personal animosity." Neither can I but hey, that's not MY job
Played through Fallout 1 recently, and only recently discovered how apparently several of the members of the Brotherhood didn't know about Roger Maxson. It was a piece of dialogue that I somehow missed in pretty much every playthrough of 1 that I had. And then I hear it again in this video. The fact that the writers of this game remembered that little detail and incorporated it into New Vegas is a testament to how awesome this game is and how awesome the series is in general.
...and they only had A YEAR AND A HALF to make this game (most games of this size take around three years to make) Imagine if they had more time, Bethesda were already put to shame writing wise by this game.
@@seronymus More like a remake, the engine has aged over time (and we would get to see a lot of the original concepts realized fully, such as expanding the strip and adding back all of the legion cut content)
@@RU-vidisgettingworse.it’s amazing how you can just genocide in that game. It’s so fun watching the pie chart change as your people become the only ones left.
For real, though. If someone asks you why you're trying to kill them and you have a choice between saying, "Someone's paying me to." or "You're being destroyed because it's inevitable that you be destroyed.", which one goes harder?
Funny thing is, if you look through the audio files, they actually recorded a dialogue where you can convince Caesar to spare the BoS. You could also convince Mr. House to spare the BoS. There's actually mods that add those options back in.
The fact he became as great as he did starting as a captive is made even more interesting knowing that the historical Julius Caesar went through a similar genesis with the Cilician pirates of his time. That right there alone is a perfect example of why this game's writing is 11/10.
Thanks for pointing that out, I never made that connection! Relevant that Ceasar would later come back and crucify his former captors when he was ransomed. It reminds me of NV's Ceasar using his former captors to do all of the hard fighting and dying.
wow this is actually... pretty good writing for an ideology that a nomadic tribe follows to grow into an empire... i need to give this game another chance!
Its because they took direct inspiration from the character on the 1979 movie Apocalypse Now, Colonel Kurtz when they were contemplating this character and giving him motives and backstory Colonel Kurtz and Caesar are very similar in their methods, as well as philosophy. Not to mention that much like Caesar in the game, the Colonel is viewed as a Messiah figure by the local Vietnamese guerrilla fighters he leads
@@franpe6522 cant argue on this one because i dont know anything about roman history. But the main point he makes that the NCR will inevitably, fail, just like the old world government because their principles were the same. Wheereas caesar was presenting something differant.
Interesting how Caesar clearly states that the Legion would be changed by defeating the NCR. Heavily implies that the flaws the Legion currently has will be expunged in the process of this war.
It's more that he thinks by defeating the NCR and taking Vegas, they'll gain the civilian infrastructure they've really needed all along and assimilate it into the Legion.
The thing is though, if we were to use Hegelian Dialectics as a response to how the legion has been handling previous tribes, then it hasn't been working out. The legion is an anthesesis to the tribes it's encountered, which has always ended with the total annihalation of their tribal culture and identity to assimilate them into the Legion. There is no synthesis, the anthesesis carries on, devouring anything within its path without adapting new ideals. Sure, they pillage and scavenge weapons and other utilities from the tribes they conquer, but there is never a political or academical change. The legion can't work the land to its fullest, they can't build proper infrastructure or armor, they gamble it all on pure human strength. If the legion were to assimilate the NCR, nothing would change. It would still be an anthesesis in a world without a thesis. It would be like Alexander the Great, weeping as there are no more worlds to conquer.
@@Todarain Just because we aren't seeing the synthesis does not mean it isn't happening. Look at the guy who trains the Legion's hounds, he comes from a tribe that specialized in working with canines.
@@DISTurbedwaffle918 Of course, tribal assets are utilised, but to call it a mutual resolution of conflicting ideals is a stretch. The tribe he's from, the Hidebarks, had their dogs thrown to the fire whilst still being alive so that they would forever suffer in the afterlife. That is not a synthesis, that is total domination.
Obsidian: Well thought out antagonist with reasons and motives behind his actions and actually thinks hes doing the right thing in the end Bethesda: OH NO EVIL BAD GUY THAT DOES BAD THINGS TO BE VERY BAD AND WANT TO BE SUPER EVIL
I disagree strongly with this guy, but love how he actually had an agenda and a philosophy to go behind it. Can't go back to Final Fantasy villains who never have an end goal other than "THE WORLD IS SUCH A SAD PLACE THAT I WANNA KILL EVERYONE BAAAAW"
parokki well you know there are atleast 2 final fantasies which have antagonists just like caesar one is final fantasy tactic where your enemy is a diabolical undead priest who wanted to rebel againt the gods to create his o2n realm on earth the second is final fantasy 12, in this game the antagonist are the gods from ff tactic who plays over humanity and make them kill each other so that humanity could never suprass their godship
Waveform Obsidians writers for this game were on another level I pray that soon Bethesda will one day allow Obsidian to purchase the rights for Fallout from them so we may get another jewel of a game like this one
@@courier6960 Same here, same here. But Bethesda is still decadent as always. Caesar's criticism of the NCR can apply thousandfold to Bethesda: *_A loose conglomerate of individuals looking out for themselves. It's lost virtue. No one cares about the collective, the greater good._*
@@davidhong1934 It definitely will now that it owns both (that comment was written before the merger was announced). I really hope to see and in-depth remake of F:NV, and a new fallout game of similar quality.
Player: Caesars Legion bad. Caesar: Possible. But have you considered the potential long term economical, social and political effects on your recovering civilisation? Player: Wait what?
@@19Ledor I meant that Caesar and the Legion believed that emulating Roman Empire and conquest can make a stable legacy. But everyone who knows history remember that the Roman Empire wasn't stable at all. It relies on continual of conquest to keep up with resource and maintenance of a huge army. Such a costly model on a wasteland environment with limited human and natural resources is odd to say the least. I do agree Casaer is very cool as an NPC and enemy in the games. And conversing with him is my favorite dialogue encounters in games.
This is something that Bethesda never really understood. Characters having legitimate reasons, values and world views. Not just black and white "They're bad, but these guys are good".
This is what was missing in Fallout 3 so badly.. inteligent backdrop, smart dialogs, well writen, not-hollow characters, and mainly - morale choices you have to make not based on "black and white" decisions of good and evil. Fallout franchise got to be the best out there, cannot wait for fourth instalement ;)
This is terrifying, I mean, it's like the master all over again, except that he's Benito Mussolini with an undergrad education in continental philosophical collectivism and guerrilla warfare. He's got no idea the amount of suffering he'll cause if he wins, but I guess only as dusk falls does the owl of Minerva spread its wings.
Matej Kramár That doesn't apply to all characters in FO3. The quest "Blood Ties" was very intelligent in my opinion and your moral choices can change everything in it. Same for The Replicated Man.
thefreegamer91 Everyone's harsh on FO3, but I think that's just because New Vegas was on a higher level. However, FO3 introduced a lot of people to fallout who might never have played it otherwise, and paved the way for JE Sawyer's game.
I honestly love both Fallout 3 and New Vegas, yes Fallout 3 was mostly very black and white when it came to morality and it didn't have as many complex characters but when I travel out into the wasteland it legitimately feels like society has collapsed and I had to be stingy with ammo in case I came up up against of the many threats, while in New Vegas I rarely felt like I was at a risk because as long as I kept a good relationship with the NCR long enough to get a ton of ammo from the Gunrunners I never had to worry about running out of ammo especially if I had a companion with me.
Fallout New Vegas: 6 minutes of pure explanation that makes a lot of fucking sense, you feel hate for ceasar but at the same time you can see how genious he is, just like a villian should Fallout 4: no
Caesar is so unbelievably well written that it’s a genuine shame that the Legion as a whole wasn’t able to be fleshed out more as a plot device. Its a stark contrast to the NCR, which has been extremely detailed across the greater Mojave, but that faction doesn’t possess a single person with the depth they gave Caesar.
That may be intentional. Caesar and his legion are committed to destroying the identities of any tribe they encounter. The result would be an overemphasis on Kaiser himself and his imagined empire. Lanius is a great example. As powerful and eloquent as he is, he is nothing without the legion.
It's because he was directly influenced and his character was derived on the bad guy from the 1979 movie Apocalypse Now, Colonel Kurtz And they did a great job in showcasing that
Also, most fleshing out for side characters comes from side quests. The legion don't have many side quests because they don't need much help. They are ruthless and motivated, their resources are targeted at hoover dam. The NCR need all the help it can get because none of the senators give a damn about the dam. There are so many ways the NCR would fall apart if you don't help it to show all the beurocratic inefficiencies.
@@PolishGod1234that geezers looking out for himself he’s selfishly kills himself when cornered about a lie knowing his army needs him at this exact moment what a clown
Meanwhile In the prydwen Sole Survivor: Maxon I dont get it...Why are you here can you explain your motives to your highest ranking soldier? Maxon: i'm protecting them from themselves Repeat it. lol Sarcastic Ok
The Brotherhood questline has the single worst dialogue exchange in all of FO4. Either that or Dr. Li had a stroke mid-conversation that was never talked about or addressed again.
The thing is... he's not wrong, especially with the Brotherhood of Steel. The BoS, excluding the Capitol Wasteland detachment, is mostly dedicated towards the consolidation and maintenance of technology for their own ends. If I had to guess, the BoS's main objective is simply to wait out mankinds darkest days and then come out ahead of the competition. Now, his monologue about the weaknesses of democracy are fairly accurate. Typically, any system which makes an allowance for dissenting opinions is fundamentally flawed when confronted with a military power of equal or greater strength. This is because the system has a certain degree of individual selfishness which out weighs the greater concerns of the states self preservation. Most consider this a blessing, because any state which weighs the needs of the institution above and beyond the wants of the individual citizens is inherently abusive. However, this is Caesars point, this is a war of unification not a democratic state, and he needs the military efficiency of the Legion more than the pettiness of the assembled tribes. He further argues that the Legion will change through synthesis with democratic ideals following the conquest of the NCR. If I had to guess, I would have to suspect that he was planning for a second republic to be founded after his death whose ideals while inclusive to American individualism, would also be based philosophically to the ideal of Imperial growth and prosperity. In short, he wanted something like the COG from Gears of War. Democracy and rights within the bounds of the states mandate for self preservation. But, that just a theory... a game theory.
Logan Snider It is possible that he is talking about the Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel, the guys in Fallout Tactics. Different goals and such. I think of them as people like Lyons but went down a dark path.
StylesV13 Lyons was actually the one who went down a different path. The first 2 Fallouts BoS was the same as NV and Tactics. Technology hoarding scavengers. They would attack you if you had a plasma/laser weapon in the first 2 Fallouts. Lyons faction were the actual Outcasts from the BoS.
Monkee Pawl Not to be rude, but did you even play Fallout Tactics? The Brotherhood of Steel in that game were the ones from the original BoS that wanted change. They were sent on the airship mission East to follow the super mutant armies. But storms ruined the mission, survivors of that mission found themselves outside of Chicago. There they were free to form their own Brotherhood based on their values. The MWBoS in Tactics let in outsides, most of their people in the game were outsiders. You as a player are a recruit, an outsider. They were not technology hoarders, they shared their technology and knowledge with outsiders, at a price. In time (as we know during the game) the MWBoS became a brutal fascist organization. The Midwestern Brotherhood of Steel let in outsiders (forced people to join), shared knowledge and tech with outsiders (took control of towns and such) and had inquisitions and deathcamps. Lyons on the other hand has just started and his people are taking it slow, trying to do good. But they will face the same challenges as the MWBoS once did. Will they end up going down the same fascist path?
StylesV13 No issue. I haven't played Tactics. Just the main games. I thought that it was the same group from 1 and 2. Didn't realize there is so much to it. D: I just want a morally grey Enclave... Not one that is either trying to FEV people or kill FEV people lol.
StylesV13 I played Tactics as well, but I haven't been able to find any type of guide that specifically states what events in the game are considered canon, any chance you do? Everything just says that it's "semi-canon" but without detail as to which parts are or aren't.
Courier: "What's your opinion of President Kimball? Caesar: "A man of potential, held back by the craven political context he inhabits. You realize he was a general? "The Hero of the Mojave," they called him. A title he earned by extirpating lesser tribes that dared attack NCR citizens. His responses were swift and draconian. President Tandi, the "founding mother," coddled hostile tribes... but her successors were less naive, so they gave Kimball free rein. And after a respectable military career, what does he do? Become a politician." Courier: "Isn't it natural for someone like Kimball to seek greater power?" Caesar: "But he did so by election. What better way to stunt the growth of leaders, not to mention whole cultures? A leader shouldn't have to kowtow to those who serve him. With so much energy wasted on those below, how is he ever to move forward? Had he taken the government by force, used his army to stage a coup, things would be very different. I'll just have to do it for him."
I totally get what Caesar mean. He doesn't just prove his point by words, but by actions. He created the Legion to send a message: to prevent an apocalypse to happen again by mashing together two opposing ideologies and by doing so, creates a synthesis that absorbs the two parties' strengths but leaves little weakness. It's a social experiment done in a grand scale. It's a boon for science, but a horror for morality.
Just like Rome ended many horrors of endless inter-tribal war by their conquests, there's a case to be made that morally speaking, more good is done by destroying an inefficient government than by waiting for it to destroy itself. ...Presuming one wins, of course.
Hearing Caesar talk about Hegelian Dialectics gives me the chills, but applying the dialectical method to the material world was more of Marx's idea than Hegel's.
I think is more of a satire to the fascists and national socialists. they wanted to emulate the roman empire, wanted to bring back a glorious mystic past, wanted to break society and rebuild it on the image of the party, etc
Marx based his writings on the concept of "exploitation" which (and i believe Marx himself admits this) exists less due to philosophical or "material" arguments and more because of the modern necessity for it due to conflict between the proletariat and capitalist Its unlikely to think any society in fallout would adopt those ideas but that wont stop the FALGSC crowd of thinking communism is a panaceum
@@wilsonsilva2918 I thought that Marx's writing was based on the labor theory of value and declining rate of profits, which were conventional wisdom among economists of his time. So you are right that its unlikely that any society in Fallout would adopt his ideas, because its very unlikely that any of them would reconstruct 19th century economics.
Hearing this man talk is both very interesting and horrifying. He is way more knowledgeable than the average wastelander but is a ruthless despot who is extremely dedicated to his goals. And this guy is able to actually win if given the right set of tools
The horror also comes from how most real life Authoritarians were more knowledgeable of the systems they took over than the people effected by those systems were, and it made carrying out their will on the lands and people that much easier.
The truth is that he's absolutely right about the BoS. They have taken it upon themselves to hoard tech that they claim is too dangerous for humanity to use, and then what do they do with it? Use it themselves in order to acquire more tech, by force when necessary. Hypocritical as hell. What makes them any more qualified than the rest of humanity to handle this tech? If it is so harmful to human life, then how is it ok to use it TO END HUMAN LIFE just to get MORE of it? They are basically raiders with fancier armor and guns. If they really cared about protecting the world from the technology, they would destroy it, or, in the interests of preservation, familiarize themselves with it, then lock it up tight and allow nobody to use it, including themselves, in anticipation of humanity's evolution to be able to use it responsibly.
Courier Six: What do you think of the Railroad? Caesar: What do you want me to say about them? Their ideas, their goals, their leadership, their tactics, everything in that group is all a fuckin' powder-keg! Courier Six: Why would you describe them as a powder-keg? Caesar: Because like the Minutemen their too inclusive and let many synths into their ranks. Since the Institute has the recall codes for all of their automatons they can turn them off at a moments notice while the rest of the humans in the group are outnumbered and annihilated by the Institute's machines. Or even worse the synths could go haywire like the Broken Mask incident of 2229 and start killing everyone around from the inside and no one would be none the wiser. Selflessness isn't a bad thing, but focusing your selflessness for one group above all others will ultimately be your downfall. So yeah going on that the entire movement is a powder-keg with a short fuse just waiting to be ignited and the Institute and can light any time they want.
Courier: What do you think of the Institute? Courier: What do you think of the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel? Courier: What do you think of the Enclave?
+JustBeingCozi For number 1 see my comment above. 2. Caesar: You want me to talk about one of the darkest chapters of the Brotherhood and one of the worst leaders they had ever appointed as Elder? Sure, I'll humor you. I find it funny that the Brotherhood will split itself apart over something as petty as technological hoarding, but that's what happened in the Capital Wasteland. The worst part of this chapter was the Elder that lead the Capital Wasteland chapter, Owyn Lyons. His naivety and arrogance is what made it the shortest chapter in Brotherhood's history. Lyons thought he was above the creed by striking the Outcasts from the Codex, all while trying to help the outside world by "water purification" following the idea of a man who was not with the Brotherhood. It's not like Lyons did anything to help the people, they just stood in there little fortress while of the rest of Washington went to shit. They have nothing to take credit for, the water purification plan was all done by one man called "James" and Dr. Madison Li. Without Liberty Prime they would have been wiped out by the Enclave. Courier Six: What's Liberty Prime? Caesar: A giant war machine that was supposed to use by the Americans to defend Anchorage before the bombs fell. Liberty Prime is in pieces now, if I were somehow get my hands on that machine, it would strike a major blow to them and would help against Mr. House's securitrons.
+MartianManHunter2258 Very good and deep dialogue and I enjoyed reading about what would Caesar think about the East Coast Brotherhood of Steel. However, Caesar doesn't want to use superior technology such as using Liberty prime to do the battles for the Legion. Caesar believes that the Legion would be better without the use of technology as he mentioned that if his Legion were to use superior technology such as using Mr. House's Securitron upgrades then his Legion would be lazy and rely on the Securitrons rather than themselves. So Caesar would say "The East Coast Brotherhood of Steel will rely on Liberty Prime fighting for their battles rather than themselves and that will be their ultimate downfall".
I think Obsidian purposefully made each faction have good points and bad points. The NCR provides safety, but they force you into it and are very corrupt. The Legion works as a unit, for what they believe is right, but they also force you into it, do inhuman things to people and Caesar's ego is too large. Mr House has knowledge and is able to rule the Strip, but he sees the Mojave as a business endeavour not a place where people actually live. In my independent run, I did it because I actually cared about the Mojave and the people in it. I wasn't creating an empire, but protecting my characters home. All other factions see it as a place to practically loot for their flawed nations.
So true. I had it in my head to shoot Caesar the second I saw him but after he explained himself he almost convinced me to work for him (he had a slightly better point than House and much better than the crappy NCR but I couldn't resist a massive robot army and a gambling empire of my own).
Tentons O'fun "You know, Eddie, i see your point, and i get that you are the better choice buuuuuut.... i really like blackjack. And hookers. And your armor is quite fancy soooooo....." *2 magazines of bullets shot in his head*
Like you said each faction has their good points and bad points you said your intentions as ruler of New Vegas but you must have some bad points as well that really couldn't be the best option.....
the main problem with independent run is that the courier is just... well... a courier, don't get me wrong, playing independent is still a solid path, but still unless you roleplay as a super genius politician, most of the time the courier is probably going to fuck up the wasteland since he's just a normal guy/gal. Also the fundamental flaw of courier being leader is that he is human, he is flesh and bones, he still have human emotions and desires, that's where Mr. House gain a slight edge over the courier, he's practically immortal and his judgement in politics won't be influenced by emotions.
Now that you say it,It’s true that I can remember almost all my dialogue with even minor characters of New Vegas.And I really can’t think of dialogue in Fallout 4 that was worth remembering.
Fallout New Vegas: discussing hegelian dialectics in a roman tent Fallout 4: "Another settlement needs your help, I'll mark it on your map" "-yes" "-no(yes) " - (sarcastic) yes "- what? (then yes)
Roman expansion was based in vital elements of the roman culture: ius connubiis, ius comercii, ius sufragii, ius honorum That means that "whatever the culture" of the defeated tribe, they can mantain their beliefs, but respect the roman law in this 4 points, wich are the essential for the assimilation of their culture to the roman's way of life .
Yup. Caesar's biggest failing - he's destroying Native cultures instead of assimilating them. I love Antony, the Houndmaster, for that - all that giggling psychotic dialogue breaks down once he's talking about his old tribe and their beliefs. He sounds on the verge of tears when he talks about Caesar burning their sacred animals alive, and his assertions that the tribe is "stronger now" sound completely hollow - like he's telling himself that just to keep from going even _more_ crazy.
I am pretty certain that Obsidian deliberately wrote Caesar to be a hypocrite. As much as I feel like I am going out on a limb by using SPECIAL stats to speculate about what characters are meant to be, it is quite clear from looking at Caesar's that he is meant to be the Fallout world's answer to Adolf Hitler. Hitler, you will recall, was thought of as "the Austrian Corporal" until an unbroken string of luck and an even longer string of people fatally underestimating him catapulted him to the dictatorship of Germany. Similar to Hitler, too, is how when Caesar crosses the Courier, in all but one of the plot threads, you basically get to kick Caesar and all of his friends back in place. One good element of RPGs that New Vegas holds true to is that the player is free to make their characters as strong, noble, and clever as they please. And it gets obvious in a hurry that it does not take much to have more of all of those qualities than Eddie Sallows does.
Oldass comment, I know, but still want to chime in for anyone happening to come by: Caesar (in New Vegas, not the real one) is basically a fascist. He is modelling his totalitarian empire after a fiction, promising the return of a glorious culture that never even existed in that way. Much like Mussolini promised the return of the Roman Empire, much like the Nazis called themselves the "4th Reich". It's political fiction, political mythology, used to bring people in the present into line.
And you know what's the most ironic in the Legion ? Legion was scraped, what you see in Fallout New Vegas is just a fragment of what could we have (One year production span for the game, they had to cut corners) and yet it's still better written then the full "fleshed out" factions we had in Fallout 4. That said Cesar IS in fact to full of himself. Look at what he says about President Tandi, that after she died it all went to hell. Well, what do you think will happen to you system after he kicks the bucket hm? It will all go to shit .... or even worse.
That's the thing with autocracies, assuming you have a intelligent leader who knows how to rule, you can make rapid progress as you aren't bogged down by political negotiating. But what happens when this great ruler dies? Some power hungry fool eventually becomes the leader and fucks everything.
Yurt The Silent Chief this is why roman imperial succession according to caesar were to be considered a better option rather than primogeniture type of succession we see on monarchies. Because the current leader could choose among the best candidates to rule in the future rather than relying on a RNG based mechanics that your eldest offspring would be a good leader.
Fallout: New Vegas: Is one of the most intellectually stimulating RPGs of all time, delving into the questions of morality, freedom & politics of a world where everything has gone to shit. Meanwhile at Bethesda: BAAAAAAAAAAAAGHHHHHHGGHGHGHHG MUTANTS AND MACHINE GUNS BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGHGH WAR NEVER EXPLOSIONS!!!!!!11!!"
A nationalist imperialist totalitarian homogeneous culture that obliterates the identity of every group in conquers you say? So it's a racist, violent, anti-freedom, infested cult which trashes the life of anyone who worships it. Why not just call it a conservative party and be done with it
@StevyJo256 I'll forgive that comment so long as you translated racism as xenophobic if not then screw you. Secondly, the ''conservatives,'' that you are talking about are probably the false ones who simply call themselves conservatives. If so then I completely agree with you - they are complete pussies. Real conservatives aren't something to aspire to anyway, making fake conservatives even more pathetic than their depressing existence. I'd love to talk more on actual conservatism but my thoughts for that are still being established
@Vulpes Inculta I'm serious. You think I'm a pussy, so why not swap info with me, meet me, and I'll smash your face in. How would you like that little man?
I was playing far harbor and told a guy I wouldn't kill a lady. Then he said he's giving me an order and he instructed me to kill said lady and I was given a quest update. Smh.
I think Arcade Gannon's remarks when you go with him to the Fort and leave the tent after talking to Caesar sums up what kind of a person he is: "What a load of brahmin shit! Can you believe that guy?" OPT 1: I don't think either of us can fully understand what he and the tribes have gone through. [INT 8] A fair point, but from the perspective of someone west of the Colorado, the man is clearly out of his mind. Maybe he didn't intend for things to wind up this way, but that doesn't mean he needs to perpetuate this bizarre anachronistic myth. And it doesn't mean that we should sit by and nod our heads at every absurd faux-Roman casus belli he can dream up. He's a tyrant. The bad kind. And there's no way we're letting him take Hoover Dam. OPT 2: Who, Caesar? Of course, Caesar! You can hardly even hold his men responsible, given how they're practically raised to worship him as a living deity. What's the point of surviving the war? Why did the founders of the Followers crawl their way out of vaults to bring knowledge back to the wasteland? So we could act like the last two thousand years didn't happen? Play dress up so we can fight ancient wars all over again? No way is he getting away with this. I'm not letting it happen. You're not letting it happen. OPT 3: He seemed pretty smart to me. Being "smart" doesn't matter if you're insane. Everything makes sense to Caesar because he's twisted everything to his world view. He's Caesar reincarnated, the NCR is the corrupt Roman senate. I wouldn't be surprised if he thought the Colorado River were the new Rubicon. He abdicates responsibility to a myth of historical inevitability. But he's not Caesar. This isn't Rome. And he isn't going to get away with this. OPT 4: He's a madman. What did you expect? Well, yeah! Right. What did I expect? The man's a megalomaniac. He acts like this is some preordained cycle we're returning to. Of all the people who could learn from our past mistakes, he goes and throws all of our knowledge off of a cliff. Instead of trying to learn from the past he re-creates it, runs back over the same old barren ground. The scariest part? He realizes how much of an ass he is - both to himself (spoiler alert) and the wasteland, and he's absolutely right.
inlazlowetrust Meh, not really. Gannon and the Followers of the Apocalypse just don't agree with the primitivist idealogy of the Legion and are essentially just engaging in ad hominem there out of rage.
"So we could act like the last two thousand years didn't happen?" Well, the last 2000 years led to the destruction of the entire world and near extinction of mankind, so what good did they really do? (in this setting) Every path that tries to revert society to how it was just before the war is doomed to repeat history. By regressing, Caesar is giving humanity a chance to rewrite it's future.
I had the idea that after Caesar died the line of succession would pass over to the courier instead of lanius since he's more of a general than a leader and the courier would eventually become history's equivalent of Augustus who as many historians regard as Rome greatest emperor.
Dovahkiin-Dragonchin It's a dead end either way really, at the end of the day they have the same goals. They go about it differently though, still doesn't change the fact that their goals are just... hollow. Capital Wasteland's BoS doesn't even really seem to have a purpose. They'll eradicate super mutants and the enclave. And then what? They're useless. At least the gathering of technology is a journey that just keeps rolling, ultimately useless but it keeps rolling. The Brotherhood from tactics is the brotherhood that has the best future just judging by the games. East - White knights with no real future or vision. West - Xenophobic and zealous scavengers. Midwest - Practical and effective.
I will never be able to *like* the Legion but I must say, the fact Caesar is given an opportunity to explain himself and actually makes sense, providing historical parallels and literally citing Hegelian dialectics, makes me able to *understand* it. Hell, as silly as it probably sounds, I even wish that I could sit down and have more discussions with Caesar on the nature of society or some other related things to understand more of his ethos and possibly pick up a new perspective on the subjects. He is really just that well written.
Wait out until you find out, that his "historical parallels" don't fit at all and what he says is "Hegelian dialectics" is not in the slightest Hegelian dialectics, quite the opposite actually.
@truckwarrior5944 You just need to suspend disbelief. It's like Socrates appearing in Assassin's Creed. He has nothing in common with the real one (both Plato's and Xenophon's portrayal of him) because the writers aren't educated in philosophy. Sawyer is a smart guy but he doesn't have an MA in German Idealism. Caesar is evidently smart enough to read and understand Hegel, it's just that most video game writers aren't educated enough to depict the likes of Socrates or Hegel.
Jacob Perez I wouldn’t agree with him if I were you. Any system who’s success or failure is completely dependent on a single person is doomed from the start. Even if Caesar was competent, his descendants won’t all be. Even if he does succeed in his plan to conquer the wasteland, then what? Conquer more land? Split into factions and start the whole thing again? There is no endgame, his faction is like a tumor that spreads, killing its host and itself in the process.
@@missmorbid1439 You lack vision. It is not competency that matters but loyalty. The Legionaries are loyal not only to Caesar but to his vision whether they know it or not. Even if they lack knowledge, all aspects of what the tribals were has been erased. There is only the Legion. A trained dog does not stray. Even blind self interest will be to the Legions advantage. The Legionaries, wives, and slaves need only be awakened to the reality that life in the Wasteland has never been easier. As for determining the next leader, the Roman Empire did just fine. The Legion will follow suit. You forget the great synthesis that awaits once the NCR bends knee to Caesar. It will be the dawning of a new age, and a new Legion. A true empire of the Bull. TRUE TO CAESAR!
@@jacobperez7329 They're loyal to Caesar himself, regardless of what his vision is, especially if they are purposefully kept ignorant of his vision. You are right, a trained dog does not stray, even when his master tells him to run into gunfire or off a cliff. The Legion will run itself into the ground at the whims of whatever foolish Caesar takes power in the future. Pointless waste of life. Democracy and Constitutions provide stability, the more people involved in the decision making of a government, the less likely any one person's personal problems will throw off the entire system. One other thing, the Romans actually had a large problems with lines of succession in their early years, it was only after one of their leaders set up a solid chain of command that the problem was resolved. That could just as easily not have happened, and the Romans could have been dead then and there. If you allow Caesar to die, then his second-in-command, Ladius, takes power. He's brutal, aggressive, and not very smart. His plan is to wage an untenable war of expansion, conquering more land than the Legion can effectively hold. And one more thing, I did not forget the grand synthesis, although I do not believe that it would go as smoothly as Caesar would let you believe. You could just as easily end up with a system that's just as corrupt as the NCR and as brutal as the Legion.
Caesar may be a very intelligent man, but after his death, his army will only begin to break. Marcus even said it at Jacob's town. "Caesar is trying to change human nature, after he's gone, the legion will crumble"
@@chieckenman4432 The Auto-Doc is ALMOST fully functional. Literally the only part missing is the one that will remove his tumour. Beyond that, it works fine.
I have to admit, I always thought little of The Legion, but hearing this? I have a greater respect for both the fictional leader as well as the writers behind it.
I highly recommend then that you give the movie Apocalypse Now from 1979 a watch The bad guy in the movie, Colonel Kurtz is a direct source of inspiration for Caesar here in game. Even stated by the game development team
You know I would to see this guy debate philosophy with the Sole Survivor, since he/she grew up in the times before the war and he/she is most likely more educated on the subject of history than Edward is. And has far better knowledge of what happens to people when they repeat the past or rely on the ways of the old.
Nhat Lam NGUYEN Not necessarily. The male is a former solider while the female is a lawyer. So it's safe to say they would have studied history at least some point during pre-war era.
***** yeah, but studying those stuff doesnt necessary means his intelligence can match caesar. i mean look at the courier from new vegas. he doesn't even know what a fish is. but that ain't stopping him from repairing 200 years old machines. plus what are the chances that the sole survivor is studying specifically about ancient rome. i mean that's not a subject that everybody knows about
Caesar probably the best written character in the franchise. Only one that comes close imo is funnily enough Dean Domino. Obsidian could write villains. No wonder Bethesda ignore the existence of this game. It’s actually sad comparing this games writing to the diarrhea produced by Emil. The guy is better suited for content like cocomelon
The best part about ceasar is that even if you disagree 100% with him on all his beliefs and statements, you’re still able to see where he’s coming from and understand the logic behind it, even if you don’t agree with it
Thats true. Especially if you actually can call his BS when he talks about historical parallels or Hegelian dialectics. If you are educated on those topics, you know he is basically just lying. But he is very intentionally lying about topics he knows most people are not educated about, just so it seems like he actually has sound logic behind what he says.
But he got it totally wrong...Rome didn't destroy the identities of anyone it conquered. Part of the reason the Empire lasted so long was because it TOLERATED those differences.
