22:44 "In fact, in all the years I've played CoC, I've only ever seen this at the last game we played [...] and oddly enough it ended up happening twice." This happened to me in five-hand poker. The only time I've got a straight flush, it happened two games in succession: first a royal then a regular.
We have an house rule concerning the luck value - each characters luck is rolled with a d100 at the beginning of the game session ... it is luck after all ...
Eric, I'm genuinely curious: given that Luck is already randomly generated now (3d6 x 5), why did you choose to change to d100 to generate it? Or are you playing an older edition where Luck is still derived directly from POW?
Love it when you set the neckbeards straight Seth, re: "not Lovecraftian" or "not true to the game". As makers of the game Chaosium get the final say in what's true to the game, and beyond that it's the Keeper at the table.
From RuneQuest 6 / Mythras, I'm more fond of the mechanic where they actually get the check to improve the skills when they fumble, rather than when they crit. The manual itself explains that characters learn more from their mistakes rather than their succeses, and when they go through a hard experience are more likely to learn what not to do next time. I just found it pretty reasonable and at least they know that their faliures are windows to new and better oportunities in the future.
One house rule I added to my game is being able to increase physical attributes the same way skills do, I never understood why it wasn't added in the base game as well since building up cardio and working out is possibly the easiest thing a person can do.
It says a lot about you (not in a bad way) that you consider being athletic and getting stronger to be easier than learning to do something like lockpicking or driving. Quite charming.
@@Tecmaster96 I always found it weird that you can somehow get to be a competent medic or hacker in a couple of months of downtime yet you can't hit the gym and get stronger lol.
@@oz_jones Plastic surgery or even just taking better care of yourself, clean up and dress more on point, other than that appearance is really not that important compared to the physical stats, I've lost good characters simply because I've rolled like crap at character creation.
@@paulll47... Right. My bad, not sure what i was going through when i wrote that comment and i didnt expect a real answer. And yeah, appearance is really hyperspecific stat in CoC anyway. Have a good one.
I always like giving players the chance to propose a failure scenario for pushed rolls. It can help players feel in control of their fate. Edit: i agree with your opinion on bonus die / checking the box for development.
I'm watching the series in preparation for (first solo) Call of Cthulhu, and think the explanations in part 4 are the best so far. How to apply skill and non-skill rolls to have the check match the unfolding events, how to advance the narrative, and when to give control back to the players; it's all very valuable. Thank you!
I'd love to hear your opinion about the RAW: So, the Keeper's book says to use an npc's skill to determine the difficulty needed. 'Normal' for under 50, 'Hard' for under 75 and 'Extreme' for under 90. It suggests to only use opposing rolls if the target is an important npc. It says you should use advantage & disadvantage die only in the case of ooposing rolls, and to try to refrain from opposing rolls unless you're dealing with an important npc or doing combat, and use difficulty levels for most of the common checks. I get the spirit of these rules, seeing it fixes the spotlight on the PC's rolls, and the speeding up of the more mundane parts of the story by avoiding the Keeper rolling for a lot of checks. As I'm about to start Keeping for the very 1st time, I'd love to hear some more experienced takes on this mechanic. Thanks in advance ☺️
These are so helpful. Im just getting into Call of Cthulhu, and Ill be Keeper for the first time ever. These videos really help ease my anxiety about DMing for the first time. Thanks for the great content!
You could also argue that when the main character in Shadows Over Innsmouth is talking to Zadok Allen, he fails his roll to persuade him to recount stories about Innsmouth's past. The protagonist then decides to take more time and ply Zadok with more whiskey. He then makes a pushed roll and succeeds, and Mr. Allen begins recounting stories of Innsmouth's past and Captain Marsh..
One time I spend almost all of my luck points to be able to hold an alien weapon. It was at the end of an one shot and just for fun but this one retired policeman still has an alien weapon in his closet.^^
Just want to say a huge thank you for all your COC video's. I have GM'd for years but mostly AD&D 2nd ed, D20 and Homebrew systems and after seeing some of your videos, I decided to take the plunge and buy COC. I have run two games and I am hooked. Best game by far.
Thanks for making these! No matter how well I think I know the rules, you always point out something I've overlooked. You're videos are really helping me up my Keeper game!
Seth, I really appreciate this series. While I am not new to GMing I have never played CoC or been a Keeper, but I've wanted to run the system. This is really helping me confirm my reading and be more confident of my understanding of the rules. Thank you for your work.
In practice I find it easier to replace bonus and penalty dice with D&D 5e's advantage and disadvantage system. It's functionally the same- re-rolling a d%, but the only difference is a change of the 1d10. I understand the appeal of rolling more dice, but I don't get to play tabletops in person much anymore (how tragic) and so explaining this over a voice call can be problematic. "Reroll and choose the higher/lower" is faster in my opinion.
It seems like you could also decide to use a bonus or penalty on the "ones" die for much smaller bonuses or penalties. This would only swing the percentage a maximum of 9% (e.g. if the bonus or penalty die is a 10 and the player rolls a 1 on the "ones" die. The regular bonus or penalty die can swing the result 90%!).
Man, You are absolutely making me want to get these books, it sounds like a really neat system. Frankly the only reason I'm not getting it now, is because I want to finish my ETU campaign, and doubt I would want to run horror for awhile after I finish that.
I think of the normal / hard / extreme difficulty level as reflecting how hard a given task is just by its nature. (ie: Some walls are harder to climb than others, some locks are easier than others to pick, etc.) I think of Bonus and Penalty dice as representing situational factors that make the task easier or harder to contend with. (ie: With a boost, a character may only have to climb half a wall's height, but the wall, itself, remains just as "hard" to climb. A bonus die would represent the boost making it easier to succeed at climbing a "hard" wall. Or, conversely, a player might get a penalty die for trying to climb that same wall in high winds, or maybe the character's height phobia kicks in. The wall doesn't change, the conditions do. And as Seth said, if something is commonplace for a given character, no roll needed. (ie: a doctor probably doesn't have to make a Medicine roll to diagnose a simple injury or illness, but a layperson probably would.)
Thank you verry much for those, i finally played my first ever CoC and i run the Haunting as Keeper, unfortunally we didn't get to finish it in one session because of a medical emergency but we had tons of fun. Even though i am still confused on what happens if you need a regular success and a player rolls hard or extreme success because of this series i got to know one of the best RPG experiences i had. I played D&D for ~20 years and this game was like a fresh air. So thank you again for your work!
Happy to help. I hope you get to finish The Haunting. If they need a Regular Success and get a Hard or Extreme you either just treat it like a Regular, or maybe give some additional information if there is any.
Hey Seth, just wanted to let you know that your videos on CoC are what inspired me to start running it for my game group. They've been bugging me to run a game and we've all been craving a more story based and investigative setting. I ran them through The Haunting this past Saturday and while there were some hiccups from keeper and player alike, we all loved it. I'm working on the next scenario for a whole campaign now. Thanks for bringing the game to light and showing how fun it is to play!
Glad to be of service. If you're looking for some fun scenarios, I recommend you check out Dead Light, Edge of Darkness, and the Crack'd & Crook'd Manse.
Seth Skorkowsky Already way ahead of you, I have Edge of Darkness and Dead Lights in my plans. I've been watching your reviews over and over since January.
This isn't strictly a review request for CoC but I would love to see some book reviews from you. I just finished The Devil Rides Out, which I know you've referenced before, but I'd really enjoy a more thorough take on this and other works you enjoy! This series is fantastic, can't wait for the next part!
About checking the skill box & bonus dice: a good compromise is to use dice of different colors, and denote one of them as the "base" performance die. If that specific die is a success, they get a check - otherwise they don't, even if they are successful overall.
I like to use penalty dice for when the player specifically is affected, vs. when the task itself is harder. So if trying to drive fast enough to a location is a regular roll, heavy rain would make the task at hand more difficult and therefore result in a hard test, whereas being drunk would make the character worse at driving and therefore result in a penalty die
I think you have wet my appetite sir. When reading the book I was really taken aback by all the seemingly strange numbers and rules, but this is beginning to make sense and not be as complicated as I originally thought.
I like the idea of rolling a percentile and if above a 95 even on a mundane task or long list of them have them make an easy check if a 00 make a difficult check with a moderate negative effect on failure. Just to throw in some random bad luck even on mundane tasks. Keeps players guessing and is a lot like well-life. Most days nothing comes up but maybe 1/5 of the time some little thing happens like a cat jumps out in front of your car so you swerve around it or something. Tension is heighten when you ask for a roll before saying what happens.
Personally, what I like more and more about CoC is that the single hardest part for a Keeper, beyond the trying to justify player characters being together in the first place, is deciding what roll to make players do, and it is not so hard as some other systems where I am endlessly going back and forth trying to figure out rules, account for pluses and minuses, and splitting up rolls to reflect different skills at play at the same time. Trying to keep track of all the variables even in a simplified D20 system like DnD 5th Edition is much more work than I ever had to commit to CoC.
Great video Seth. I bet your games are great. I love your transitions in your videos between you and "Other Seth." I can't wait to check out the next video.
Good. D&D has enough RU-vid channels dedicated to it that it's good to see some other games get some love. Though that said, I do watch all of the videos you make. I even bought Cyberpunk 2020 after watching your videos about it so I hope you do some more reviews of that game as well.
I totally love the Call of Cthulhu game stuff Seth. I live your format. Its nice to have someone that goes in depth and gives advice. Nerdarchy, roll20 etc, don't do that
If editions 1-6 are your jam, that's fine. Maybe steal Luck or something else you want to add to your table. The big benefit to a basic understanding the rules changes is you can grab a 7e adventure or supplement and convert it to the older edition for you to use.
Opposed skills does not imply opposed rolls necessarily. CoC 7 says opposed rolls are mainly for combat. Main approach is just the PC rolling against opposed skill level for the (non rolling) NPC
Excellent overview of the CoC skills Seth! and I love your house rule on the 001 X marks the spot penalty roll. (I'm going to implement that one in my groups game now :) Great as always!!
Seth: Thanks for these vids. I started playing CoC back in 1931... err.. I mean 1981. (started D&D in 79). Haven't played in years, but have never stopped gathering adventures & etc for CoC. And, as far as I know, up until 1987 or so I had every CoC adventure or supplement that was available (barring things from magazines like Different Worlds, Dragon, or White Wolf - though I did my best to get them). I have not had the chance to play 7th Ed. yet & due to my current living location in the high plains of NW Kansas, I don't see opportunity to play anytime soon. So, I am living my CoC adventures through you & Jack. (Jack rocks, btw. w/Scotch, I'm sure). Btw, I have 4 CoC modules by Theatre of the Mind Publishing from 1983/84. They are: The Arkham Evil, Death in Dunwich, Pursuit to Kadath, & Whispers from the Abyss (and other tales). Have you heard of/experienced these? They have a different flavor from Chaosium modules. The first one starts in 1918/19 in coal mines of W. Penn. & deals with coal miner strikes, influenza epidemic, end of WWI attitudes/Pancho Villa/ & a mysterious comet. They all have permission of Chaosium & Arkham House. The others are secrets I cannot reveal due to that damn cursed idol I can't get rid of. (but I digress) The adventures have good maps/storylines/great npc's. There are some minor issues a Keeper might have to make to smooth them out, but good quality overall IMO. But I would love to hear you & Jack take them on. Thanks again & keep going. Sincerely, AJ Rabies P.S. Ever try to fly a 1920's German dirigible into Cthulhu? Whispers from the Abyss will help you.
Thanks again for another great entry! I appreciated hearing your house rules, especially with regards to the skill checks and penalty/bonus dice. I think by sticking with penalty/bonus dice, it will save me a little bit of headache of trying to get down to the specifics of every role and having to determine Hard/Extreme successes. Edit: And a quick question for you: As a new GM, I'd love to hear your insight into campaign and plot creation. Do you already have a video that touches on this?
Thanks for this! I decided to help my gaming community by being a keeper for the Call of Cthulhu supplement and this series has been great for helping me understand things and ideas as a Keeper. Subbed and Liked!
Seth. I don't know if you read comments to old videos, but there's a house rule of mine I use in RuneQuest which uses similar skill system. I also give experience check marks for failures too sometimes. Especially if the skill is low. "You often learn more from a failure than a success."
Hey. Thanks for these videos. I've played 5th and 6th version of CoC but those always felt bit... Distant? I never really understood their appeal. I did have great games as a player but I never really cared for the system. Now with 7th ed. I'm thrilled. This is much more streamlined and less in the way of playing as previous edition. I think the problem was that when it came to rules. As I didn't know them properly I got stressed about what I'm supposed to do or know so it pulled me away from the athmosphere of the session. Now that the skills are split into three different boxes for different difficulties, I don't have to calcluate them every time again and again. Calculating complex things isn't a problem in itself but it does pull my mind from the feels and athmosphere of the game (is this the divide between ability to have feelings or think logically?). Now this simple change from previous editions - it is marevlous! So simple, yet so powerful! Just so you know, you have a clone running somewhere around nothern Finland. You two have similar looks, (apparently) similar passion for Cyberpunk and are both great knowledgeable GM's!
Old video is old, but I would like to add something to this vid. So the argument about when should you use modifiers vs. difficulty raise is a grey zone. But The book does give a rule of thumb for this. You should use difficulty only, if you have a challenge that is not apposed by a PC or NPC. You are just simply trying to use a skill. You should use modifiers only, if you have a challenge that is apposed by a PC or NPC. Some one is actively trying to stop you from succusses. I personally follow the books advice, and almost never give modifiers out for unopposed skill rolls. Using modifiers for these kind of actions, most of the time, muddies the difficulty. Its just simpler, and a safer bet, to just choose between avg, hard, extreme. Because apposed rolls are decided between who scored the highest difficulty zone (avg, hard, extreme) difficulty raise cant be used to measure the influences in that roll. So modifiers where made to be the measured influences in a apposed skill roll. Even then I follow the books suggestion on how to operate basic/one off NPCs. Instead of an apposed roll with modifiers, just ask the question to yourself "Is the NPC I'm using a simpleton, average, experienced, pro, or the best of the best at the opposed skill" If the answer is simpleton/average, just make the PC just roll at average difficulty. Experienced/pro, roll hard. Absolute best of the best, roll extreme.
can someone help me: yesterday i had a szenarion where a PC ram his expensiv car into the Child-thing from "Mister Corbitt". i took the delux car because it was very expensive car but than i had the problem how to determan the damage in such a case. i look quickly through the keepers guide but could not find an awnsere. maybe i missed it. i ruled roll 6d6+6, cause the car was size 6 and the movement was 6 highter as the Child-thing and the plus six was just to increase the damage minimum. how would you have ruled this situation?
Damage for running something down is tricky. Most of the rules are going over the damage to the vehicle or occupants in a collision rather than the damage to something you've run down. However, in the very back of the Keeper Guide is a table called "Other Forms of Damage". In there, they have that being hit with a car going under 30mph is 2D10, and a speeding car is 4D10. Now, I found that rule wile casually sitting here and taking my time. If I was in the middle of a game and didn't want to slow the action down to get it right, I'd have ruled the same as you did.
🌟 *Please do character creation guides / overview for other systems you & your groups play .* *Just like you did for Call of Cthulhu 7th edition .* *I really want to learn more about RuinQuest RolePlaying in glorantha , Conan , aliens , delta green & Advanced Dungeons & dragons 1 & 2 .*
Much appreciated video(s) Seth... A seasoned and reasonable explanation of the game and mechanics is definitely helpful... (yay) As for all this selfless altruism out of you, you do know about George R. Price, right? His application of Game Theory to "Fisher's General Theorem of Natural Selection" provided that acts of altruism could be mathematically proven as greed-based acts of self preservation and therefore preservation of the genes in further generations... It's worth a perusal. :o)
I watched every episode and I loved them all I have a very similar GMing style to yours and i felt like i was talking to myself most of the episode, I love Jack Mallone split screen and his character overall..Please do more CoC reviews of their other products like the card sets and maybe recommend more CoC or CoC related books, movies or/and game props. Yo touch on these and would love to see more, btw I just picked your 2 novels and will be reading them this coming weekend. Do you have a podcast or any other vids or audio stream we can all watch?...if so plz link.Maybe you can introduce us to your group someday and get their perspective of playing the game, anyways please make more vids, podcast and audio streams and i will be on the lookout for them...we all will and till then try to enjoy the daylight......
I very much enjoyed this series so far, they actually made me talk my regular role playing group into trying out CoC. Now I'm wondering: will you also be doing a review on the two scenarios included in the keeper's rulebook?
The penalty dice and higher difficulty levels have a bit too much overlap for my liking. It feels redundant and it's not always clear when to use one or the other (or both). This is especially true if you're writing your own scenarios because there's no guide other than your own opinion on how hard something is supposed to be. Obviously I can use an extreme check for something that's clearly ridiculous, but the 'hard' check is big grey area.
That's not a bad point, but the way I see it, a task is assigned a difficulty ahead of time, when the scenario is written, whereas bonus/penalty dice are awarded to a player during the course of play. (Correct me if I'm wrong; I don't own this edition yet) So for example, a particular book could be totally mis-shelved in the library. Finding it would be an extreme task. But, if the investigator knew the book was recently returned and knew where the page was last shelving books, they'd get a bonus die. Conversely, that investigator recently lost their glasses in a tussle with cultists, and thus would get a penalty die. TL;dr answer: one is task-dependent, one is situation-dependent. Whether it's hard or extreme is a judgement call on the part of the author of the scenario or the keeper.
Khas: didn’t you make up one of your own skills? Me: yes, I did, it’s called jog. Khas: well, why don’t you share it with the Internet? Me: OK, I’ll do that. Jog (Half of con or 35, whatever is higher% or at least for humans): this allows investigators to Jog for long periods of time, like in a chase. if wanting the investigator can start a chase by rolling Jog instead of con. Also if the keeper wants Jog can be part of the running skills, Along with Dodge. this might also be used when a player is attempting a slam or tackle, possibly alongside the normal the fighting skill(brawl). also you might want to have similar rules for its percent for dodge if you include this. Regular difficulty: running a 10 kilometer on relatively flat and stable ground. Hard difficulty: running 50 km on relatively uneven and unstable ground. Pushing the rolling: The investigator might take more drinks of water or mineral water. Or walk for about a 10th of the race. Failure on a push roll: you drink all of the drink and then you must stop for an hour and rest, during this rest they can’t move more then a decameter from they rest area. If an insane character fails their pushed Roll, then they don’t just consume resources but they also try to consume the actual bottle in which the drink is stored, unless someone forcibly stops them.
I kind of feel that if the players get stuck, they should be allowed to stay stuck. Otherwise there's no real challenge if that challenge is completely optional. It should be possible for the campaign to end without the players solving the case. They should be allowed to fail.
I dunno if I'm just slow, but I just noticed this on Pg. 65 of the Traveller Core update under the Art skill: Write: Composing inspiring or interesting pieces of text. [...]Writing the Update of Traveller: Formidable (14+) Art (write) check (1D months, INT) Hehe Sorry, I just found that funny...😅 Edit: ROFL I AM slow...how else did I manage to post this under the wrong game overview? I'll go fix that now hehe
That is way too high of the DC, knowing how traveler works that should be a DC six and not even asking for a roll unless you’re trying to do it very quickly.
"People claim that pushed rolls remove all the horror and Lovecraftian aspects from the game" ??????? ???????????????????? ???????????????????????????????
I've read the keeper's handbook but these videos really tie it all together. Will be running The Haunting once all the videos on the series comes out. Can't wait.
Hey, Seth. First of all, thank you for providing these videos. They have been a great help while I have been learning 7th Edition. I am a new Keeper, and have no prior experience with the system. It's nice to have someone knowledgeable to explain things to me and cross-reference my own assumptions about the book's material to see if I understand it correctly. My players, similarly, are new to Call of Cthulhu, and I'm doing my best to ease them into the game's mechanics without overwhelming them with information. We've only had two sessions thus far, but I'm more comfortable running this system than I have ever been trying to run something like Pathfinder, and my players seem to be enjoying themselves as well. One point I'm a bit stuck on: when, exactly, does one call for an Investigator Development Phase? I have been running the 7th Edition reprint of The Haunting, which I have seen a number of sources claim can be played in a single session. However, between rules explanations, roleplaying, and, in general, some very brief play sessions, we should just be wrapping up that scenario during our third play session. In a situation like this, should I still be waiting until the end of the scenario to call for an Investigator Development Phase, or is there an appropriate time mid-scenario when this can be done? Thanks in advance for any tips you may be able to offer on the subject, and I look forward to viewing more content on your channel!
Development Phase is up to you. Mid-adventure is fine if they have a safe spot to sleep for the night or there's some break. Such as in The Two-Headed Serpent, there is one they recommend that occurs during the millisecond the heroes are going through a portal into a different world. So you might have 2-3 sessions where there isn't one, or if it's a particularly long session, you might have one in the midpoint.
They came out so close together that I doubt one inspired the other. Several gamers with a lot more knowledge of older systems than I have said it first appeared in some lesser-known systems from the 80's and 90's. It's a great mechanic and very easy for a GM to give a bonus or penalty on the fly and a quick way for players to apply them without having to add unnecessary math. Mongoose Traveller has also adopted it (calling it Boon/Bane). The D&D 5e Inspiration mechanic is one that I freely steal and use in other systems all the time now.
Fantastic video as always. One thing though: I was interested to see what Seth might say regarding the use of the opponent's skill level to determine the difficulty level for a player’s skill roll (if the NPC has an opposing skill of 50% or more, then the difficulty for the player is Hard, etc), as it's sometimes hard to know when to use this mechanic and when to use Opposed Rolls (another one of those ‘grey areas’ in the rules). However, the ‘skill level sets difficulty’ mechanic never even got a mention. Seth seemed to take the view that all skill-vs-skill situations get resolved by opposed rolls, which is not my understanding at all (in fact, I think ‘skill sets difficulty’ is the norm whilst Opposed Rolls are intended to be the exception). An oversight?
Bit of an oversight. Sometimes I just set the difficulty higher, but just as often I do opposed. Just as often as the PC might be having a good day or bad and their rolls are all high or low, so can an opponent's.
@@SSkorkowsky Cheers for responding, Seth. Yeah, I never quite understood why the game has those two similar-but-different mechanics for resolving contests of skill (or characteristics). Whilst it's true that each has advantages in certain situations (opposed rolls are clearly the thing for melee, while it’s hard to imagine them working for an PC pitting his strength against a solid door, for example - is the door going to get a roll?) overall the existence of twin mechanics does muddy things somewhat. When I was getting my head around the new 7ed rules I actually kept forgetting about the skill-sets-difficulty rule and kept using opposed rolls when I technically shouldn't have (the rulebook states that opposed rolls between players and NPCs should be avoided outside of melee, but it doesn't explain WHY it takes this position). No biggie, I guess, but IMO it takes away some of the crispness of clarity that the rest of the ruleset has. Anyway, thanks again for a cracking set of videos; the entire channel is great. As somebody who started playing RPGs in 1981-ish, I'm also loving the reviews of old AD&D modules, Cyberpunk 2020 and Traveller, all of which I've played heavily in the past (and, in some cases, present).
When you were describing the successes for the opposed rolls, you said that one would get a regular success and one got a hard success. Does this mean; 1) One roller has to beat their hard stat check while the other only has to pass their regular stat check? 2) One past their regular AND hard stat check while the other only passed their regular stat check?
Yeah. 7e Pushed Rolls is just a mechanic to give the Keeper a way of allowing the Players a 2nd chance at doing something. Way back when, GMs, Keepers or what have you, simply decided if a failed task could be repeated and allowed additional attempts. All failed attempts would cost time and task depending, inflict damage or cause other situational consequences like noise alerting guards etc. It's a sad state of affairs when a mechanic has to be created just to cover such a basic concept for today's players. Now, the optional rule of spending Luck to change a failed outcome? That's a REAL game spoiler ~ especially in Call of Cthulhu. On the IDEA ROLL: IMO you've gotten the Idea Roll difficulties in your example all backwards! It's NOT easy to think up something you NEVER knew compared to remembering something you HAVE heard or even have discussed!
Original D&D didn't give rules for combat. DMs just had to figure that out or use the combat rules from Chainmail. It's a sad state of affairs when combat rules have to be included in games to cover such a concept for today's players. Game Masters did have to figure out how to do re-rolls. And some (not all) even came up with ways to include costs or additional risks to get them. But I don't see any problem at all with going ahead and stating that to new GMs so they don't have to go through the process of hopefully figuring that out the hard way. As for Idea Rolls, my example is correct (pg 199). All Idea Rolls will give the information to move the game forward. That it guaranteed 100% of the time an Idea Roll is made. The roll determines what the cost for it is. If the PCs never heard the critical information, then the risk of cost is low. If they did get get the critical information, talked about it, then dropped the ball and forgot about it, then the risk of cost is high because they had the answer right there and dropped it.
@@SSkorkowsky Yes indeed, I remember hearing about the Chainmail situation, although it was a bit before my time (I was 6 years old when D&D originally came out). A game design oversight from back in the mid 1970's. I don't quite get your reference as it relates to the point about my comment on 'Pushed Rolls'. As for your point about helping out new GMs and side-stepping that learning experience of how to manage re-rolls, isn't that a bit of a disservice? There is no better teacher than experience after all and new GMs would be better at their 'trade' for learning the hard lessons in the same was we had to. As for the Idea Roll point; it seems I have done you an injustice. You were simply quoting from the rule book and not declaring a personal interpretation. I have since re-read the section on Idea Rolls on p199 (thank you for the ref.) and my point still stands. The difficulty levels required are indeed BACKWARD. How can a fact/clue you have heard and/or have discussed require a HARDER roll (Extreme) to recall than for a clue/fact you NEVER knew existed in the first place (Standard)? This is obviously nonsense and I am surprised that you haven't caught on to it yet rather than just quoting scripture and verse. Of course this isn't the original intent for how the 'Idea Roll' was to be used. P11 of CoC 3rd (in the INT description) says in part "The Idea Roll is used to really think of it." Which I take to mean a fact, piece of information or theory put forward by a player that the Keeper would consider unlikely to be known or thought up by the CHARACTER. The Idea Roll was intended to stop smart players knowing more than what their character did, while allowing a smart character to know things a less smart player doesn't. A lame mechanic IMO that had limited scope that was exploited by gamers to compensate for Players being a bit lazy and relying on Idea Rolls to 'save the day' or to bail out Keepers doing a bad job of adventure design and execution. It has to be said, this was NOT the intended purpose for the 'Idea Roll' by the creators. Today's CoC 7e uses it as a mechanic to reenergize a stalled adventure. It's a bit of a blunt instrument. As a Keeper, I would simply advise the Players they feel they are 'missing something' and encourage them to talk through all the events and clues to hopefully jog their memory or highlight a missing piece of the puzzle. This would give a great role-playing opportunity and be perfectly in-keeping with Lovecraft's world ~ a group of friends [Investigators] talking over the events of a mystery and forming a plan of action. This would also give a good sense of achievement to the Players when they come up with answers rather than their Keeper simply handing them the solutions after a Die roll because they couldn't solve it themselves. Of course, if they don't manage to get things moving on their own, there is always the 7e version of the Idea Roll as a very, very last resort.
I'd rather let the new generation of players and GMs gain the benefit of lessons learned from the generations before, and tell them what the solution is to a problem that they're guaranteed to encounter. An interesting thing with RPGs is that those GMs can then decide how or if they want to follow that, but they at least are given the option of a solution upfront, rather than given no help at all and being told "we never got help so neither should you." OK, forget the name Idea Roll. It's a terrible name and causes confusion because in older editions and other games it means something else (see my video on 'How to Run a Mystery' for my rant about that, calling a last resort like an Ejection Seat). So for the sake of this conversation, let's call the 7e Idea Roll a 'Hurdle Roll.' If the game has stalled for whatever reason, the Keeper or Players can call for an Hurdle Roll to get past this hurdle. It's not that the Investigators "think" of the answer. It's that something happens that moves us past the hurdle (such as the badguys capture them. No one had the idea "let's get captured." It simply happened, but now the game is moving forward). The Hurdle will be removed 100% of the time that the roll is made. The 'if' they move the game forward isn't a factor. The factor is if there's a cost for doing it. It might be an idea a PC has or a total outside factor comes into being. If the players were given the clue and discussed it and either forgot about it or ruled it out, the risk of paying a high cost for the Hurdle Roll is Extreme or Hard because they had the answer. They had everything they needed but they dropped the ball. If the critical clue was something they never got, either because they didn't do the right thing, make the correct roll, the Keeper screwed up, or whatever else, and the Keeper never told them the important clue, that's a Regular Difficulty because we're not going to penalize the players for not using information that they never had. So the concept is that if the players did get the necessary information but didn't make good notes, or chickened out on acting on it due to Analysis Paralysis and are really using the Hurdle Roll to skirt having to take responsibility for themselves and essentially use mechanics to take the easy way out (being lazy), the the roll is harder, meaning that the chances of a cost (like being captured) are higher. So, let's say that you're running a group. They got the clue, discussed it, and then forgot about it (a frustrating thing, as any seasoned Keeper knows). The game has stalled and a player says, "We're stuck. I call for a Hurdle Roll." Now the Keeper is rolling their eyes because they know perfectly well the players have the answer, but got lazy or forgetful, so they say, "OK, but if you do, it'll be at Extreme Difficulty." This tells the players that they have the answer. So now the players can say, "OK, we'll do it," or they can say, "Oh, hold on. Let's think about it some more." Now they discuss it, going over what they know and hopefully jog their memory. If they find the solution, they can still feel proud that they came up with it on their own. If not, they can pull the ripcord, roll their Hurdle Roll, but most likely pay a high price for it. So no, the difficulties aren't backwards at all. If the players have the clues but are trying to exploit the game rules to take the easy way out, then it should be a riskier roll. It encourages players to think about the solution and not opt for the Hurdle Roll every time things get difficult. If we were to swap the difficulty levels, as you suggest, then the players are more likely to call for Hurdle Rolls every time they have all the pieces to the puzzle but are too lazy or scared to act on them.
@@SSkorkowsky Hmm. Yeah, while I see your points I don't agree 100% with them. Things have gotten a wee bit convoluted I feel. The 'Pushed Skill' roll being a mechanic allowing a second attempt at a task was the first point, where I said it should really be a Keeper decision rather than an actual mechanic, has led to a debate about helping new GMs. I am not against experienced GMs sharing their wisdom and insights, I am against games creators writing rules dictating how players are to handle situations that should be the purview of the Keeper or Group at large. As I mentioned earlier, I also feel that new GMs are better served having to make tricky decisions about game mechanics on their own to best hone their skill. The Idea Roll was, as I mentioned, always a lame mechanic IMO. It could be argued that the line between the Idea and Know rolls has been somewhat blurred too over the years. Having said this, I do understand your 'Hurdle' argument and see the value in having a mechanic that can be used to fix a range of problems. My feeling is this can be a rather lazy solution or 'magic fix' to problems that could be otherwise addressed, often in more enjoyable ways and is open to abuse from all sides. This is not a criticism of those who use this mechanic in this way but rather my own personal view. The beauty of this hobby is that different people can handle situations in very different ways that is right for them. On the Idea Roll Difficulty we have been discussing, if the whole point of the roll is to get things 'back on track' as it were, why then would a Keeper risk yet another failed die roll to keep things from moving on? Wouldn't it be more prudent instead to make it as easy as possible but without seemingly pandering to the players? I still believe the example on p199 of the rule book is backwards but after a bit more thought, putting myself as a Keeper in that situation and having resigned myself to go down this route, I discovered that I would rather use a Standard pass for ALL the situations given on P199 but would also give either an Advantage Die or even a straight % bonus to any attempts where the players have been exposed to whatever clue etc before, which surely would be a more logical and sensible approach to getting things going again.
Thanks for the very clear and helpful video. I just started running 7th edition this week. How do you handle pushed rolls with multiple PCs? For example, the PCs walk into a farmhouse and the scenario says to call for a Listen roll to see if they hear the hobo hiding in the basement. All the PCs fail. Can they all get to push the roll assuming they take some action in the fiction? E.g they all freeze, listening intently. How would you adjudicate what happens if the pushed rolls are then a mix of success and failure?
All case by case, but for Pushed Rolls for individual things like Listen or Spot or Climb I have them all be separate. Any player can Push a failed roll. For rolls against a person (Charm, Intimidate, Fast Talk, etc.) I cap that at 2 attempts total. First person tries and fails, second attempt by anyone is the Pushed Roll (though there are exceptions). As far as results if some make and some fail a Pushed Roll, again all case by case. Depends on what they're doing, where they are, and a bunch of other factors. Sometimes the failure of the Pushed Roll only effects the player that failed the Pushed Roll. Other times it catches everyone in the bad effect. So with everyone listening, if one player failed the Pushed Roll and the badguy noticed them, the badguy possibly noticed all of them. Again, all case by case.
@@SSkorkowsky hey, thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail, Seth! :) I recall it was perception rolls in particular where I was unsure e.g.“Everyone make a spot hidden/listen/psychology”. I really liked the push mechanic when I read it as I am not a fan of skill dogpiling in RPGs where the PCs queue up to make multiple attempts at skill rolls, just can be trickier to implement the pushed rolls in practice!
